I added the LitRPG tag for stories. It's under the scifi section (on all sites).
Definition: LitRPG are fantasy stories which describes an adventures within an online computer game
ETA: Also, added Rags to Riches tag.
If your story(ies) match it, please use the 'manage stories' function to add the tag to your story.
While this doesn't apply to any of my stories, thanks for thinking of us and making life easier with this and the other tags you've added over the years.
Ernest
Appreciate the definition. Whew. I was trying to figure out what a literary rocket-propelled grenade might look like.
bb
Whew. I was trying to figure out what a literary rocket-propelled grenade might look like.
I've seen a few of those launched before. 'D
Still no "Self Made Millionaires" or empire building, rags to riches? There are many stories that fit that category but finding them is difficult.
Yeah, there is a ton of empire-building and getting-rich type of stories, Most of them are do-overs but not all do-overs have empire building.
Litrpg is even more niche than that.
Also: I would broaden the LitRPG definition. The fanbase started as "trapped in an MMO" but expanded massively in scope. It mostly includes all form of "gamifying" a story. Including
- the classic trapped in an mmo
- playing a VR game without being trapped in it but the story is mostly about being inside the game
- otherworldly or godly beings bestow the protagonist with game-like powers
- the protag has an advanced AI in his head that display (power)stats and normal statistics or vital information about him and others
- choose-your-own-adventure style forum threads where people can vote on where the author spends points.
The term litRPG itself is really young, coined by a russian publication in late 2013, while the story itself was codenamed litRPG since 2012
There are many stories that fit that category but finding them is difficult.
Have you come up with a good an obvious tag to use and asked Lazeez about it in a direct message to him with a good supporting reason? He's good about adding tags when someone suggests one with a good argument. But just saying you want this definition isn't enough, you need a clear tag and definition for him to use that makes sense and doesn't duplicate something already there.
Still no "Self Made Millionaires" or empire building, rags to riches? There are many stories that fit that category but finding them is difficult.
I haven't found such a category of stories anywhere (yet). You're the only one to ever ask about it. meanwhile, in the last year, I've received five different requests for litRPG.
Tell you what, give me a clear definition and a list of 5 stories that match and I'll add the rags to riches tag for you.
One thing that most members asking for a tag overlook is that if I simply add a tag, it won't magically pull up matching stories. Each author has to add to their stories first.
Each author has to add to their stories first.
and many authors don't do retrospective tags, but some of us do.
and many authors don't do retrospective tags, but some of us do.
Especially those who have passed on. They're really difficult about things like that.
Especially those who have passed on. They're really difficult about things like that.
ayep, but a note to Lazeez naming the story will often get the tag added.
I guess the best description of the stories are "starting with little or no money and building a large business"
Some Authors who write that type story are
Openbook, The Find, Bending The Rules, Kenny The Kansan Series,four stories.
rlfj, Fresh Start Universe, two stories.
Dual Writer, Florida Friends, sixteen stories
Catman has six stories that fit the description.
That is the ones that I remember without looking.
I guess the best description of the stories are "starting with little or no money and building a large business"
Don't forget one of the most requested 'lost stories' in the forum, Lazlo Zalezac's The Millionaire Next Door.
AJ
Some tags are more useful than others. Personally I haven't used "small breasts" or "farming" but if it floats some boats, its good for them.
Some tags are more useful than others. Personally I haven't used "small breasts" or "farming" but if it floats some boats, its good for them.
I've had a couple stories where someone is notoriously small breasted and it's an issue in the story, but I'd never flag those. Just like with "BBM" or "Asian", those tags are specifically for racial stereotypes, and I try not to deal in that type of stereotypes. If you simply have a black, Asian or Hispanic (or large or small breasted) character, and treat them as human beings rather than cardboard characters in a stroke fantasy, you'll never need those tags.
Likewise, while I might read some sort of 'gaming' story, I'd never read a LitRPG tagged story, because it means, if you're not into the specific gaming world, the story is clearly not for you. It's the same with Post-Apocalyptic labeled "teotwawki", as they're targeted for a specific class of reader, and it's an announcement that no one else will relate to the story in question.
Some tags are more useful than others. Personally I haven't used "small breasts" or "farming" but if it floats some boats, its good for them.
I'm fairly certain I wouldn't want to read a story about farming small breasts, it sounds like organ harvesting.
- Living next door to heaven (he builds a community with his own television studio)
- A well-lived life (Software imperium)
- Al Steiner's "Do-over" (financial imperium with future knowledge, and abandons it later)
- Arlene and Jeff (military mountainbase, new city, the only one on earth with a space ship)
- A new past (construction empire)
- Time of eden and elves (recreating society from post-apocalypse, space empire)
- Hindsight 20/20 (financial/truck empire)
- Gateway, what lies beyond (uplifting a stone-age society)
- Magestic (financial/construction/political empire)
- A fresh start (financial/political empire)
How about 'Entrepreneur'?
That would rule out getting a fortune by winning the lottery or inheritance which, IMO, is a good thing.
AJ
The category name is difficult, I suggest "Making Money"
how about the tag being R2R = Rags to riches where a person starts with nothing and accumulates a lot through work or luck.
Lucky Jim would qualify in this, as would Lucky Jim 2 while some of my stories where they start with some and increase would not Finding Home and Interesting Times wouldn't qualify but Flames of Life would.
The category name is difficult, I suggest "Making Money"
I agree, as "empire building" is different than "Making Money", as the first can include political or even, in my case, building an underground religious movement.
I hate to suggest it, but it actually makes sense to include both, and if a particular story crosses over to both, they can also dual-tag it. "Empire Building" is actually one I might use, although I've never written a 'making it rich' or 'rags-to-riches' story. Heck, my newest story (the one I'm just now publishing) has someone getting impatient building movement and take advantage of an political opportunity and stages an intergalactic coup. No tags for that!
Empire building is what it comes to, in the end, for nearly 95% of the stories. And there are also empire building stories where money doesn't play a big role.
That would make a bigger category and still give direction to the stories, and bigger is better in this case.
OK Mr. Lazeez, I have the required number of stories and two very good category names. Entrepreneur or Empire Building.
Empire building is what it comes to, in the end, for nearly 95% of the stories. And there are also empire building stories where money doesn't play a big role.
EmpBuild = Empire Building where someone builds an empire from scratch could be another tag of its own.
Lazeez is fast, he has the new category "Rags To Riches" up and it already has six stories in it.
Lazeez is fast, he has the new category "Rags To Riches" up and it already has six stories in it.
It now shows 48 stories and it's also on FineStories. I asked Lazeez to consider adding it to the SciFi site as well.
Lazeez is fast, he has the new category "Rags To Riches" up and it already has six stories in it.
I suspect it's rare that a potential new category will have such a strong case for it, yet at the same time the new tag is likely to contribute to the tag inflation problem.
Swings and roundabouts :(
AJ
I suspect it's rare that a potential new category will have such a strong case for it, yet at the same time the new tag is likely to contribute to the tag inflation problem.
I don't mind properly coded stories, what I object (in terms of tag inflation), are stories that seem to aim to use as many tags as they can in the fewest amount of chapters possible. Eventually, we may want a limit on the total number of tags allowed on any given story to prevent that type of abuse. In a case of 'family incest', you really don't need to list each and every form of incest possible to get the message across.
In a case of 'family incest', you really don't need to list each and every form of incest possible to get the message across.
Agreed. Thank God (okay, Lazeez) the possibilities don't include second cousin, half-brother, half-sister, step-brother, step-sister, step-mother, step-father etc etc ;)
AJ
Agreed. Thank God (okay, Lazeez) the possibilities don't include second cousin, half-brother, half-sister, step-brother, step-sister, step-mother, step-father etc etc ;)
Personally, I don't like the fact that most of the tags are gender specific (good) but cousin and grand-parents are thrown in gender neutral. Then there is In-laws which just doesn't belong in the incest group at all.
step-brother, step-sister
Step siblings are a grey area, and many wouldn't consider that incest. Step-parents get into power-dynamics and other such things, where the objection becomes more about consent or lack thereof than it is about incest.
Good point. I was thinking of the possible coital pairings within a family without worrying whether they met the incest tag or not.
If the story involves time-travel, tags like great great great great grandmother become possible!
AJ
Step siblings are a grey area, and many wouldn't consider that incest.
Step-anything is only important because it's a 'fudge' factor. After all, it's 'not really incest' if they're not biologically related. Thus, we should replace all the 'step-anything' tags with a new 'pseudo-INC' tag.
Crumbly, still grumbling
Well, I had been going to suggest "Horatio Alger" as the proper category tag...
But "Rags to Riches" doesn't require having read early 1900s literature to understand.
That's great, I'm real happy about him doing it for us. I am sure there are hundreds of stories that fit the category. The two stories I am working on will fit also.
Dennis aka Catman
Definition: LitRPG are fantasy stories which describes an adventures within an online computer game
Changed my story, then re-read the category and changed it back.
So if you've read any of Aquea's Dragon's Age stories or my Skyrim story, technically they don't fit this category. Our works aren't set in online games. They're still PC / Console games, but they're single player.
Thoughts from others? (Also, I tried to do a search by category for the LitRPG category and it didn't show from the search screen.)
Thoughts from others? (Also, I tried to do a search by category for the LitRPG category and it didn't show from the search screen.)
I would suggest using it considering it is the best fit at present. If there is a better tag created later then change the tag to fit.
I tried to do a search by category for the LitRPG category and it didn't show from the search screen
It won't until after there are at least 2 stories with it as a tag and the systems have had time to reset and re-register the story codes database . So if you know anyone who wrote a story it applies to message them to add the tag.
LitRPG doesn't apply to Computer game Fanfic.
certainly not for the majority of the fanbase.
LitRPG has one major plot point that HAS to be included: a gamified stat that represents a physical, mental or otherworldly component of the person or the environment, that can grow or be static.
- a Computer game fanfic with no stat points: just a normal Fanfic
- a Computer game fanfic that includes stat points (either directly from the game or the authors own creations): LitRPG
- a normal story with no ties to games that has stat points: LitRPG
- a normal story where the MC or other people have an advanced AI in their head that displays stats: technically a litRPG but the fanbase is divided on this one, the stats are not supernatural, just a gamified conversion of real things.
it even differentiates in the birth of the genre, the trapped in an mmo type:
- trapped in an MMO with the normal game mechanics available: litRPG
- trapped in an MMO without access to or a way to view your stats: a normal story
- someone playing an MMO with stats being an important part of the narrative: litRPG
- someone playing an MMO without mentioning stats in the story: normal story
LitRPG has one major plot point that HAS to be included: a gamified stat that represents a physical, mental or otherworldly component of the person or the environment, that can grow or be static.
Personally, I don't see that narrow of a definition holding for long. I actually think it has already failed.
We're already seeing "Hard LitRPG" much like Hard SciFi, and then softer variants of it. For the "Hard" variant, stats, levels, character sheets, skills, game mechanics and whatnot feature in order to establish that it is an RPG. On the "Soft" side, it is basically any story set in a virtual world.
After all, you have "sand box" type games, as well as the school of thought that "a well designed game should be as transparent as possible to the end user" so unless you're dealing with a power-gamer MC, most of that "other stuff" shouldn't matter much. Which isn't to mention the potential aspect of people not knowing they are in a simulation.
In that vein, book versions of The Matrix and The 13th Floor are likely retroactive inclusions for example. ".hack" from Japan certainly qualifies and even resides closer to the "Hard LitRPG" side, as well as predating the genre's "official start" by nearly a decade(if not more, as would The Matrix(1999) and the 13th Floor(don't remember, I think it was 2000-ish?)), except it was an Anime, and probably a manga, not sure if it had a light-novel to go with it.
Various Star Trek episodes involving use of the holodeck would also be in LitRPG territory, if they were written out in book form at least.
Tron would be an "interesting" one to decide how/where it falls in the grand scheme of things.
Edit: But also agreed that "fan Fiction" set in a particular world probably is not LitRPG by itself. Until or unless the author decides that the setting itself is virtual as well.
LitRPG doesn't apply to Computer game Fanfic.
I understand that when most of the younger generations hear RPG, they think of online MMO or computer gaming. But what about players sucked into NON-computer games?
In the 'Guardians of the Flame' series by Joel Rosenberg, a group of college students who participate in a fantasy role-playing game are transported to the world of the game by their gamemaster.
The original Jumanji movie had the boy, Alan, sucked into a board game. The new one has the group sucked into a game console and having 'stats' and a limited number of lives.
'The Game is Life' by Terry Schott has players entering a 'full immersion' VR world where they are not aware they are in a VR environment. They are 'born', live full lives (unless they die early), and die before they leave the game.
I believe ALL of these scenarios qualify for the litRPG tag.
I understand that when most of the younger generations hear RPG, they think of online MMO or computer gaming. But what about players sucked into NON-computer games?
I remember pen and paper RPG's. Only ever engaged in it once, well after the digital versions existed. But the lack of participation(earlier, and later) was due to a combination of conflicting priorities for one and distance for the other.
And my answer would be "depends" on how it is presented. Which is part of how an RPG fanfic can end up not being LitRPG for example.
If it is simply finding yourself in the game setting but everything else presents as a normal world, then it probably is not LitRPG.
If you find yourself in the game setting, and the experience follows "more in line with a game" then it is LitRPG. Quests, levels, stats, skill points, etc.
Of course, then you enter the realm of examples I cited earlier, such as The Matrix, The 13th Floor, or even Star Trek's holodeck. Where "the game" itself can present itself in a hyper-realistic form to a point where you can't meaningfully tell the difference. At which point, I would say the call rests with the author on making it somehow known that the setting being presented is an artificial construct, at which point LitRPG can apply.
LitRPG has one major plot point that HAS to be included: a gamified stat that represents a physical, mental or otherworldly component of the person or the environment, that can grow or be static.
- a Computer game fanfic with no stat points: just a normal Fanfic
- a Computer game fanfic that includes stat points (either directly from the game or the authors own creations): LitRPG
- a normal story with no ties to games that has stat points: LitRPG
- a normal story where the MC or other people have an advanced AI in their head that displays stats: technically a litRPG but the fanbase is divided on this one, the stats are not supernatural, just a gamified conversion of real things.
Thanks. You've officially convinced me to never write a LitRPG story, as well as to never read one. The rules are too specific, too absolutists and too ... trivial to appeal to any but a small subset of gamers. In essence, LitRPG is another word for RPG porn.
If tags don't make writing stories easier, but instead confuse the issue and provoke fights of whether the authors follows the 'accepted rules of the genre', then it's not something that helps either the site, authors or readers.
More power to the LitRPG fans, but please, leave me out of it. It doesn't sound like any of these stories will have any real depth to them at all. :(
Crumbly; the ol' grouch cursing at all the young kids to 'Get the hell off my yard!'
The rules are too specific, too absolutists and too ... trivial to appeal to any but a small subset of gamers. In essence, LitRPG is another word for RPG porn.
That's why I'm discussing the tags. I think fanfic is probably inclusive enough, so long as you include the other, appropriate tags (M/F, etc.). I think sunkuwan has gone TOO specific.
That's why I tried to make sure my Legacy of a Legend has character growth involved, not just for the MC but for other, supporting characters, even if the MC does end up being a bit of a Mary Sue. It's not like she could help that, she is the Last Dragonborn, after all, even if she doesn't know it, because otherwise it would have been a way too short a video game. :)
LitRPG has one major plot point that HAS to be included: a gamified stat that represents a physical, mental or otherworldly component of the person or the environment, that can grow or be static.
I'm a little confused as to what you mean by that. Are you saying that there has to be a UI or other form of interface that actually quantifies that the main character is getting better at what they do? "Hey, my skill at archery started at 25, it's now at 80."
What about if the characters just talk about how much easier it is for them to kill something because they know their skills with the bow or sword have improved with use? There's no 'stat', per se, involved, just an awareness. "Wow, think back six months ago, how we thought being attacked by a wolf was tough. Now, with our experience in dealing with them, along with some magical rings and such, killing that dragon was easier than when we first fought a wolf."
To me, the definition of RPG - role playing game - is not in question regarding the stories I referenced. If you wrote something based on Oblivion, Skyrim, Dragon Age, Fallout, Mass Effect, or for that matter, Grand Theft Auto or Halo, then you're writing about a computer based RPG. But look at what Laz said:
Definition: LitRPG are fantasy stories which describes an adventures within an online computer game
The inclusion of online in that is where my confusion comes from. If I write something about Oblivion or Skyrim, it's simply a fanfic, because those aren't online computer games. If I write something about TESO (The Elder Scrolls Online), then suddenly does that difference mean it's not just a fanfic but also LitRPG?
What about if the main character realizes that he's in the game? That's where Aquea's current story differs from mine - Sierra KNOWS she's in a video game universe.
The inclusion of online in that is where my confusion comes from. If I write something about Oblivion or Skyrim, it's simply a fanfic, because those aren't online computer games. If I write something about TESO (The Elder Scrolls Online), then suddenly does that difference mean it's not just a fanfic but also LitRPG?
This is probably a somewhat important item within the genre, but not critical. Normally in these settings it is assumed that there are other humans in there with you. They can be allies, they can be foes, they can be completely mercenary in their dealings with others, "because it's a game."
And part of that is current understanding of economy of scale that would be needed to create a fully immersive world to interact in. You're talking something above and beyond World of Warcraft at that stage, which still resides on top of the heap nearly 15 years after release. Something completely unheard of until it happened.
Those kinds of undertakings are going to be extremely expensive, and costs would be unlikely to be recovered on game sale alone, the subscription would be "the money maker" and that pretty much means "online."
I went in to update my stories for the R2R tag and added the tag to a few stories, because becoming rich is an important aspect of the stories. In a couple of the stories, the plot is not about the MC becoming rich, and the money is just a side issue that enables the MC to accomplish certain things. I have mixed thoughts about adding the tag just because I could.
What do you think?
If a tag defines something in a story, but the something is not integral to the story or an important part of the plot (i.e., something enabling the plot) should the tag be added?
If a tag defines something in a story, but the something is not integral to the story or an important part of the plot (i.e., something enabling the plot) should the tag be added?
If it's not a central element of the story, then leave the tag off. I had, in the later stages of my 6-book "Catalyst" opus, where he received a 'grant' of several millions, something I repeated in my "Demonic Issues" stories, but like you, that merely allowed them to accomplish specific things, and had NO bearing on their 'trying' to become wealthy. It was more of purely 'accidental' wealth that ultimately had little effect on the protagonist's basic character. They were focused on their 'missions', not on getting something for themselves.
I have mixed thoughts about adding the tag just because I could.
What do you think?
The key should be, in my mind, about how it affects the story and plot line.
If a tag defines something in a story, but the something is not integral to the story or an important part of the plot (i.e., something enabling the plot) should the tag be added?
If a reader is looking for a rags-to-riches story and they came across the situation above, tagged with R2R,
I think they'd be disappointed. However if rags-to-riches was a reader's squick (damn socialists everywhere nowadays), they'd be disappointed if it didn't bear the tag.
There's no absolute right answer but I'd lean towards the former and omit the tag.
AJ
I didn't make the rules. I only stated what the fanbase considers litRPG.
The definition is quite clear, everything that has a supernatural element that includes a visual UI for the characters in the story is a litRPG.
"Hey, my Archery stat increased through training from 3 to 4!" ---> LitRPG
"Hey, I finished a quest, as a reward, my Archery stat increased from 3 to 4!" ---> LitRPG
"Hey, I trained hard and got better in Archery!" ---> not a LitRPG
"I unlocked the fireball skill, I can now shoot fireballs!" ---> LitRPG
"I finally learned how to shoot fireballs!" ---> not a LitRPG
Sometimes the difference seems to be arbitrary or little in nature, but Fans of LitRPG would 1-bomb your story if you include LitRPG in a story without a stat-display.
Same thing with other tags.
Let's say someone writes a story about an MC who decides his life needs a do-over. the Author tags it as DoOver. The story has nothing to do with getting transported into the past or in another body.
The readers have a specific expectation if they read the tag "DoOver", the same with "LitRPG"
A story about a game without a UI Element is not a LitRPG
A Fanfic story about a specific game that does not include the games stats or UI element is not a LitRPG. It is just a story about the game-world.
I didn't make the rules. I only stated what the fanbase considers litRPG.
The definition is quite clear, everything that has a supernatural element that includes a visual UI for the characters in the story is a litRPG.
Going back to my "teotwawki" example, an editor suggested that I tag that in my apocalyptic story, even though the story wasn't about 'preparing' for the apocalypse, the survivors 'just happened' to survive while the 'survivalists' all died off in their remote cabins.
I got such flak for mislabeling a story, I'd NEVER again do such a thing. Again, "teotwawki" isn't a story tag, it's instead a 'survivalist porn' tag, flagging a story that's of NO interest to anyone but survivalists. It sounds like the LitRPG tag is the same, it's essentially a 'gamer porn' tag, designed to chase away anyone not already convinced that only RPG's are the greatest things every invented.
That's not my idea of an entertaining story.
Sometimes the difference seems to be arbitrary or little in nature, but Fans of LitRPG would 1-bomb your story if you include LitRPG in a story without a stat-display.
Yes and no. This gets back to hard and soft Sci-Fi for example. You're pushing the "Hard" definition, and for many hard Sci-Fi fans, "the soft stuff is shit."
That doesn't mean there aren't people receptive to the soft stuff. That ("soft") market probably has the broader audience all things considered. And for the more recent stuff getting churned out by some of the bigger names on Amazon Kindle within the genre, they seem to be moving towards soft. Where the game mechanics pretty much only exist as plot devices and/or goal posts for the MC.
The tag definition here says:
LitRPG are fantasy stories which describes an adventure within an online computer game
How others apply it elsewhere is irrelevant.
So if I wrote a story set in the Doom game universe or the Far Cry game universe it would qualify. So would a game set in the Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego game universe.
And LitRPG fans would either 1bomb your story, like you 1bomb a story because they included a one-off scene that was not in the initial tags, or abandon this site.
I certainly wouldn't take a closer look at a site that mislabels a genre.
And LitRPG fans would either 1bomb your story, like you 1bomb a story because they included a one-off scene that was not in the initial tags, or abandon this site.
There's a hell of a difference between not having a relevant tag and someone using a definition from elsewhere when they can't be bothered to check the local rules.
Since LitRPG isn't in a dictionary there is no right or wrong definition of it, only how each site wants it applied on their site.
there is your rule
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LitRPG
And local rules? does this site want to grow or not? I came to this site because of a DoOver, I would have closed it after 5 seconds if the "local rules" of this site meant that DoOver's were about people reorganizing their life and not what 99% of the fanbase expect about someone waking up as their teenager self in the past.
does this site want to grow or not?
Ugh, I hope LitRPG isn't the genre SoL needs to grow into. Could that even be called a growth?
Comic books are the current growth market. Even the big publishers are currently accepting unsolicited submissions in the field. And they have a significant appeal to RPG fans. But yes, it is growth of a sort - just not intellectually.
(Irrelevant fact 66990210e0.1B - I used to program in RPG III.)
AJ
this fucking elitist bullshit has to stop.
Some readers could just come to this site because it is the only place he could find a recommended litRPG from another site. The reader will probably read other stories on this site.
this fucking elitist bullshit has to stop.
Some readers could just come to this site because it is the only place he could find a recommended litRPG from another site. The reader will probably read other stories on this site.
And I'm certain no one will stop them, nor will Lazeez reject their stories. The elitist bullshit is the threat that stories which don't agree with a specific definition to a story tag will be 1-bombed.
"threat"?
It is a possibility, because suddenly 1 site redefines what a specific genre should be about.
If you want 1bomb threats, look at Ernest. he said that he will 1bomb stories because they suddenly have a scene about a kink that was not previously included in the tags of the story (with a warning at the start of the chapter)
If you want 1bomb threats, look at Ernest. he said that he will 1bomb stories because they suddenly have a scene about a kink that was not previously included in the tags of the story (with a warning at the start of the chapter)
Correct, because I'm simply supporting a site instructions from the Author Agreement page that says:
Correct, Precise Codes:
Correct codes are extremely important. Most people use the codes to decide whether they want to read a story or not. The more precise your codes are the better your scores will be. If you put the wrong codes or you miss some codes or even put extra codes, you risk the chance of people retaliating by giving you low scores.
Failure to include all the appropriate codes is asking for a 1 bomb. That's not the same as threatening a 1 bomb for using the site definition and not your personal definition.
How and why Ernest scores a story is alone his decision. Demanding that a story tag agrees with a specific definition and can only be applied to a specific kind of story is a different thing.
That's what you wrote:
Some readers could just come to this site because it is the only place he could find a recommended litRPG from another site.
If those readers come with demands on how to handle 'their genre' I already don't like them.
No, they don't come with demands, they come with expectations.
If they are not met, they just quit the site.
If they quit a story site because a tag definition doesn't meet their expectations I won't mind they're leaving. Talk about elitists ...
Who is the elitist in this scenario?
The reader who expects some norm and predictability in a genre or the author who suddenly decides he is the one that defines what a genre should be.
The reader who expects some norm and predictability in a genre or the author who suddenly decides he is the one that defines what a genre should be.
The author uses the tag determined by the owner of the story site. What's elitist about that?
Who is the elitist in this scenario?
The reader who expects some norm and predictability in a genre or the author who suddenly decides he is the one that defines what a genre should be.
I vote for the one lone voice threatening us with the behavior of unnamed multitudes of upset users over a non-strict interpretation of a not-yet accepted genre category. Basically, you're threatening to take your LitRPG ball and go home unless everyone plays by your rules.
If they quit a story site because a tag definition doesn't meet their expectations I won't mind they're leaving. Talk about elitists ...
More likely, they'd ask about the definition first, possibly asking for it to be changed, and potentially asking here on the forum. But more likely, they'll either like the stories here or not, and would decide on that basis. Chances are, in the end, they'd eventually leave because it's not a LitRPG site!
If they are not met, they just quit the site.
Then they won't be 1 bombing anything last the first story they encounter.
Ugh, I hope LitRPG isn't the genre SoL needs to grow into. Could that even be called a growth?
Well, if it was set in a Hentai RPG then a LitRPG would be well suited here. =P
Ugh, I hope LitRPG isn't the genre SoL needs to grow into. Could that even be called a growth?
Again, LitRPG sounds like an outgrowth of the Gun porn movement, in that it seeks to deny access to the genre from those 'not in the know'. In other words, they're unconcerned with 'growing' the movement, but they're specifically interested in keeping out 'the seeming literary masses'.
While gun porn serves many used, it's not a real literary movement, instead it's insisting that 'non-vets just don't get it', so they're only writing to a small core group (sort of like what I do, btw).
Why then, would we seek to cater to such a small group who only want to restrict the spread of genuine literature? We won't restrict them from posting here, but there's no call for allowing someone who hasn't even filed a complaint yet to hold the entire site hostage.
If we suddenly get 10,000 LitRPG members joining tomorrow, they they have a call to complain, but until then, let's not start assuming what they'll 'allow' and what they won't. No one appointed them god of literary genres.
That's not a dictionary.
If you don't like Lazeez's definition you can always ask him to remove it and not use it all. He pays the bills, so he gets to call the rules - it's that simple.
LitRPG fans can read??????
Here's the Wikipedia (spit) definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LitRPG
AJ
A LitRPG work simultaneously narrates the story of characters inside and outside of the game-world. At least some of the characters in a LitRPG novel therefore understand that they are playing a game: they are 'meta-aware'.
clear definition, fanfic in a game world without anyone "realising" it is a game is not LitRPG. someone must be aware.
Many of the post-2014 writers in this field insist that depiction of a character's in-game progression must be part of the definition of LitRPG, leading to the emergence of the term GameLit to distinguish those books that don't necessarily embody levelling and skill raising.
The Wikipedia (spit) article admits it needs rewriting, so don't take that definition as cast in stone.
Do the 'Jackson in HRPG-World' stories by Many-Eyed Hydra qualify for the litRPG tag, or are they GameLit in your opinion?
AJ
Do the 'Jackson in HRPG-World' stories by Many-Eyed Hydra qualify for the litRPG tag, or are they GameLit in your opinion?
LitRPG
He talks about leveling up.
clear definition, fanfic in a game world without anyone "realising" it is a game is not LitRPG. someone must be aware.
Many of the post-2014 writers in this field insist that depiction of a character's in-game progression must be part of the definition of LitRPG, leading to the emergence of the term GameLit to distinguish those books that don't necessarily embody levelling and skill raising.
And it is a battle they will lose, both the "GameLit" and "LitRPG" crowd. In the mass market, it is going to be one of the other that "survives" as the identifier. My money is on LitRPG being the favored term, as it describes what the characters are doing vs where they are.
And lets not forget, that Ernest wants to declare all FanFics of gameuniverses LitRPG
That's what I don't understand. LitRPG is currently a tiny fraction of of the overall gamefiction fanbase. Suddenly it would be 100% instead of 1% of the fanbase. Doesn't anyone else see an issue with this?
And what about LitRPG fiction that doesn't have a real game as a background or isn't a game at all, just has a gamification theme? It wouldn't fall in the litRPG genre here, but everywhere else.
Lets look at another fanfic genre: Movies.
Most fanfics are about stories in the specific movie universe.
Let's say there would be a distinct niche genre called "litMovie" where someone gets sucked into a movie franchise where he would be one of the actors shooting this movie. (don't even know if this really exist, but it is just an example)
But suddenly someone wants to redefine the genre and says, every story set in a movie franchise will be litMovie.
The narrower the definition of a tag the narrower its applicability. Why do we need a special tag for a handful of stories?
I didn't include the tag or even petitioned for it ;)
I am thankful for the inclusion but the current definition makes it a bigger genre than it really is and what some authors THINK it should include makes it completely nonsensical because it would include every fanfic that is based on a game.
let me search for other examples...
We don't have an MPreg tag (males getting pregnant, not my kink, but it is one of the best examples I could find for this)
With the same diversion of the original meaning, Mpreg would suddenly include every pregnancy either from males or females.
You don't have to try very hard if you want to convince me the LitRPG is superfluous. From my point of view, many of the tags on Sol are obsolete and I'd prefer to get rid of useless tags rather than adding more of them.
I don't know what arguments were put forward for LitRPG but, to a simpleton like myself, perhaps a broader tag of GameLit might have been more useful, including both the narrow scope of LitRPG and providing a corral for eg all the stories set in the 'Dragon Age' video game universe.
AJ
I don't know what arguments were put forward for LitRPG but, to a simpleton like myself, perhaps a broader tag of GameLit might have been more useful, including both the narrow scope of LitRPG and providing a corral for eg all the stories set in the 'Dragon Age' video game universe.
I hate to suggest it, but it might be best to cater to sunkuwan's demands, then the entire genre would die a quiet death on the site, as no one bothers to write or read many stories with such a tag, and we could all quietly ignore the topic and, after a year or two, quietly ask it to be removed because it was a waste of time to begin with.
I just spent, I don't know, an hour+ looking through articles concerning GameLit and LitRPG.
GameLit is definitely the newer term, and seems to have been developed so that it would include gaming derivative literature which didn't fall into the narrow definition of LitRPG; sunkuwan does seem to have a good grasp of what the accepted definition in the outer world is. And, based upon the gist of the various articles I read, he's correct in his predictions of how potential readers of the respective genres would react to a non-standard usage of the terminology.
LitRPG itself seems to divide into two main groups, but rather than the hard-SF/Soft-SF split, thye use the terms "crunchy" and "creamy", as in peanut butter; "crunchy" focuses on "number-crunching", it's heavy overt stat display, while "creamy" relies more on narrative to inform you of skills increasing. But in both cases, it does seem to require that you are involved with a MMORPG-like setting, predominantly or entirely within the game itself, and the game mechanics form a central part of the story.
So, yes, GameLit would be a more appropriate term for use here at SOL, as most of what shows up here doesn't really fit into the LitRPG sub-genre of GameLit.
I've read a number of works over the years which would be includable in the GameLit definition, but very few, if any, that would fall under the LitRPG def.
Even the one I just finished, over at BigCloset TopShelf, Morpheus' A Piece in the Game of Gods, and his earlier Kombat Champion, wouldn't qualify for LitRPG, for while very heavy on game mechanics, they are set in the Real World utilizing game machanics.
In both cases the MC is transformed into a real world version of a game character; the game mechanics function in the Real World as if it were actually a game. Which is almost the complete opposite of LitRPG.
It's a large enough community out there that using the terminology they've developed, now that we are aware of it, really would be the appropriate thing to do.
This does point out that, in the future, we may need to take a little bit more time and do a bit more research before bringing in new tags, just to make sure our understanding matches that of the community the tag is aimed at.
I wouldn't have been any use in determining what the proper tag should be, prior to doing the research I just did, since I had only recently discovered the lable LitRPG, and didn't know what, precisely, it covered, and was totally unfamilier with the term GameLit.
GameLit is definitely the newer term, and seems to have been developed so that it would include gaming derivative literature which didn't fall into the narrow definition of LitRPG;
I agree. GameLit includes litRPG, so it's a more inclusive tag.
I've made the change on the site. I replaced the LitRPG tag with GameLit and moved to the story types section.
But in both cases, it does seem to require that you are involved with a MMORPG-like setting, predominantly or entirely within the game itself, and the game mechanics form a central part of the story.
The definition from Wikipedia seems to support this.
A LitRPG work simultaneously narrates the story of characters inside and outside of the game-world.
Apparently there are now a bunch of sub-genres, LitFPS, LitVR, and LitAR - and I freely admit that I've heard of NONE of these prior to this discussion, nor have I heard of any of the authors listed that are part of this new group that has apparently come out only within the last 11 years.
However, the actual 'official' definition of GameLit (from the group of authors who coined the phrase in the first place) seems to be:
A story with gaming elements essential to the plot. Often includes features of Science Fiction, Fantasy, or Science Fantasy. While all LitRPG books fit within GameLit, not all GameLit books fit within LitRPG. This is an open genre. There are no official groups, gatekeepers, or rule-makers.
How this is supposed to be different from a simple fanfic definition, I'm not sure.
A story with gaming elements essential to the plot.
seems clear enough.
If you tell a story in a game universe it is fanfic
If you include gaming elements either of your own or from the game itself, it is gamelit/LitRPG
If you tell a story in a game universe it is fanfic
If you include gaming elements either of your own or from the game itself, it is gamelit/LitRPG
A confusing statement. If you are going to tell a story in a game universe you will be addressing the game and its elements. So that is not a distinction between FanFic and gamelit/LitRPG.
A confusing statement. If you are going to tell a story in a game universe you will be addressing the game and its elements. So that is not a distinction between FanFic and gamelit/LitRPG.
Not completely, but I guess that's "gamer" terminology/experience at play. A person can write a World of Warcraft can write fan fiction without it being gameLit or LitRPG. They just write the story like an author would write any other fantasy setting.
Now if they started talking about casting a fireball for 354 damage, or switching to a different talent specialization(that is mutually exclusive to the one the MC had previously) in mere moments, now we're moving into GameLit territory.
Basically because the game mechanics only allow one style at a time, so you can know Akido or Karate for example, but not both at the same time. So a good example would be going to a trainer to switch between the schools of combat, gaining a near instant black belt in the other school, while losing all recollection of the other.
I am not a gamer and I am not interested in stories set in a game world environment. I may be missing something, but it does not seem possible to write a story (regardless of what type of story it is called) in a game world setting without addressing the elements of that game world.
minor edit
I am not a gamer and I am not interested if stories set in a game world environment.
I recommend you try 'Game World' by The Blind Man. I found it well worth reading.
AJ
Just because a story is written to take place in a game world does not mean it is about playing the game.
In an interview following his (Joel Rosenberg) death, his wife recalled how he came to write his most famous novel series, The Guardians of the Flame:
He said, 'Boy I'd really love to be in the world of my game.' And Joel literally woke up in the middle of the night and said, 'Like hell you would. This is what it would really be like.' And that's how he got the inspiration for starting his best known series, the Guardian of the Flame, in which a group of college-aged gamers are transported to the world of their game and they didn't like it as much as they thought they would...
A game world can just be narrowed down to the setting.
Let's take Fallout for example. At it's narrative core, it is post apocalyptic with a quirky futuristic setting that has a 50's feeling. You don't need game elements to tell a story in that setting. it is then not different to al steiners aftermath or steven king's the stand.
Same with tournament fighting games. At its core they are just dudes and dudettes fighting against each other, you just pad the characters to have a backstory and homelife.
Let's make it even easier:
Take Lord of the Rings for example, a book series that spawned several games from strategy games, to fighting games to MMORPG. They just gamified the world, why is it now suddenly impossible to write a story about a lotr game that is an adaption of a novel?
A game world can just be narrowed down to the setting.
It undoubtedly can be narrowed down. Based on what has been said in this thread, then for the majority of those stories - if you were to eliminate the game world details that are not about the setting, then you would not have the same story. It would most likely fall apart.
What does the narrative or story of a game has to do with the game mechanics? Those mechanics are not part of the lore.
And the point of fanfic is to not have the same story.
Fanfic is a term that includes stories that have nothing to do with gaming in any shape or fashion.
They are stories set within a setting of another's creation, sufficiently that there is no question that it is indeed the reality they created, where it is done without the holders of the Intellectual Property Right's granting them Canon status.
Thus, a Sherlock Holmes story written by anyone not authorized by the Doyle Estate is fanfic. As is a Star Trek story, or a Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour story.
GameLit is a form of literature which focuses on stories that that can either be identified as being set within a particular game environement, or, that include as central components things that make it clear that it is in a game environment, even if the original creation of the author. It would include stories set within a game envireronment that are authorized by the IP holders.
Thus, while some GameLit is Fanfic, not all of it is.
Therefore, not only would the Fanfic tag include a great many stories of no interest to someone seeking GameLit, it would exclude many stories that fall within the classification of GameLit.
That is the argument for having a distinct term, where there is no other term, or reasonable combination of terms, that can identify a genre with a following larger than a somewhat amorphous quantity.
It is ultimately the decision of those who control the creation and retention of tags as to whether a given tag is of sufficient utility to justify it's existence within their structure.
It turned out after the standard definitions used within the community interested in those stories was examined, that this could not be said for LitRPG.
There have been enough stories published at SOL that could be classified as GameLit that the decision was made that it did, indeed, meet the potential usage threshold.
They are stories set within a setting of another's creation, sufficiently that there is no question that it is indeed the reality they created
It seems like you just blew yourself out of the water.
Assume a person a created a game based on a fictional reality that became very popular with well-known characters. Now if an author were to write stories using those characters and set in the fictional reality, then those would be "... stories set within a setting of another's creation", which is your definition of FanFic.
It seems like you just blew yourself out of the water.
No, he didn't.
An author can create his own fictional MMO or RPG and set the story in that world, which would be GameLit, but not Fan Fiction. For an example of this, look up the Japanese Anime series Sword Art Online.
An unauthorized story set in a real world existing MMO would be both GameLit and Fan Fiction.
No, he didn't.
An author can create his own fictional MMO or RPG and set the story in that world
What he said was (italics are mine):
Fanfic is a term that includes stories that have nothing to do with gaming in any shape or fashion.
They are stories set within a setting of another's creation,
What he said was (italics are mine):
1. Most fanfic is from movies or books, not games so that description is perfectly accurate.
2. You left out:
Thus, while some GameLit is Fanfic, not all of it is.
1. The point I was making is - You said a single person create the game and then write a story in it. JohnBobMead said it has to be 2 different people. One creating the game and the second writing the story.
2. It wasn't pertinent to my point.
The person who comes up with the setting on their own, where it is not a derivative work, is the creator of that setting. They may or may not own the Intellectual Property rights, depending upon if theirs is a "Work for Hire" situation or not.
Anything set in that setting which is authorized by the IP holder is considered Canon, and only labeled by the genre of the central focus(es) of that work.
Someone else, writing works in this setting but not authorized by the IP holder, is writing Fanfiction.
Fanfiction, as a term, is not reserved to any specific Story Universe or Genre; it merely identifies a work set in someone else's IP as being unauthorized. It is a modifier applied to a work falling within a specific Genre & Story Universe(s) without the permission of the IP holder(s).
GameLit is a Genre where the focus is individual(s) interaction within the environment of a Game; it may include a heavy focus on the explicit description of the dialog and mechanics associated with the particular game, or it may be a looser focus. It may be set within a commercially available game, or in a game that exists only in the mind of the person writing the story. It can include stories where the individual(s) have somehow been transported inside the Game. It can include stories where Game-like mechanics have somehow come into play in the "Real World". In general, there needs to be the concept of "leveling up" based upon experience gained, where there will be sudden, rather than gradual, changes in ability.
(A) is the group consisting of all works falling within a given Genre, regardless of Story Universe.
(B) is the group of all works that are Fanfiction, regardless of Genre or Story Universe.
(AB) is the intersection of those two groups.
(AB) will never contain all of group (A) or all of group (B).
In this case, let (A) = GameLit, and (B) = Fanfiction. GameLit exists which is not Fanfiction. Fanfiction exists which is not GameLit. The intersection of these groups is both GameLit and Fanfiction.
These are standardly presented using Venn Diagrams, which make blatantly clear just what I'm trying to get across.
I should add that there are the occasional oddities, where the IP holder publishes works that they declare to not be Canon, yet still are Authorized, as the IP holder produced them. Thus, officially sanctioned Fanfiction.
In this case, let (A) = GameLit, and (B) = Fanfiction. GameLit exists which is {em>not Fanfiction. Fanfiction exists which is not GameLit. The intersection of these groups is both GameLit and Fanfiction.
These are standardly presented using Venn Diagrams, which make blatantly clear just what I'm trying to get across.
I think his bigger hangup is on how a work of fan fiction based on a computer game can end up not being GameLit.
The thing he is ignoring is that most computer games that bother with things like "lore" and anything more than a very superficial setting are usually going to ignore game mechanics "at will" in order to create the story/setting. Ie "Do not let game mechanics get in the way of the story" particularly when it involves using resources not directly linked to the generic game engine. (Cinematic cut scenes, special scripted events(with little to no player input or control), etc)
So for example, someone can write a Mass Effect fan fiction story without it being GameLit. (And come to think of it, they would almost have to go out of their way to make a Mass Effect story read as GameLit)
Although in some cases, GameLit CAN do some horribly broken things in theory, but authors would generally be smarter not to do so. Many games "content gate/trigger" things, in particular for RPG settings. If you know what the triggers are, you can work around them.
You can also totally screw with "the sense of urgency" where XYZ is going to be coming under attack(or already is) any moment and desperately needs your help. So what do you do? Start wandering around the rest of the story setting tying up lose ends, "farming" some extra resources, and just generally take your sweet ass time responding to that super-critical-event-that-needs-help-yesterday. And yet, you still get there in time to save the day, and nobody says a thing about how long it took.
edit: Fixed some kindle auto-help induced errors.
You can also totally screw with "the sense of urgency" where XYZ is going to be coming under attack(or already is) any moment and desperately needs your help. So what do you go? Start wandering around the rest of the story setting thing up lose ends, "farming" some extra resources, and just generally take your sweet ass time responding to that super-critical-event-that-needs-help-yesterday. And yet, you still get there in time to save the day, and nobody says a thing about how long it took.
Exactly. I recently did a Fallout 4 playthrough where I completely ignored Concord, even though that's basically the first area you're 'supposed' to go to once you're out of the vault. Went to Diamond City, found the Railroad, found the Brotherhood, found the Institute, did many OTHER quests, AND rebuilt Sanctuary, such that when I finally rescued Preston it was almost funny. They actually had dialogue in the game "Oh, you already have power armor." "Oh, you've already built a water supply / defenses."
After so many years, I often do the same thing in Skyrim. Oh, Helgen is destroyed? See you! I'm off to Markarth and Riften. Doing a playthrough right now where I've already been to Solstheim, defeated Miraak, freed Serana and defeated Harkon, got all three Elder Scrolls, and THEN went to Whiterun to get summoned to High Hrothgar. Oh, look, a terrible fire breathing Wyvern (since they're technically not dragons) ... one shot with an arrow while sneaking and it's dead, without using any cheats ... uh, game mechanics now destroyed. :)
I think his bigger hangup is on how a work of fan fiction based on a computer game can end up not being GameLit.
If you are referring to me, you are wrong.
I am not interested in gaming, FanFic, GameLit, LitRPG. You can discuss it all you want. I am not interested in the difference between the story categories or if one is a subset of the other.
My "hangup" is someone insisting that a game includes its game mechanics and also saying that a story can be written within the game setting without the story addressing or being affected by the game mechanics.
I am familiar with Venn Diagrams. They are a visual display of Set Theory.
I liked you explanation. It seemed clearer than what others have said.
I edited it. A lot. Until I thought I'd gotten all the logic flaws out of it.
Then, after posting it, I had to edit it some more...
Calculus and statistics I didn't do well with in College.
Set Theory, on the other hand...
But, boy howdy! Do you ever have to be careful in defining your terms.
Do you ever have to be careful in defining your terms
I know. One wrong word and you're toast. In fact, put out an opinion and someone will try to toast you regardless of how innocuous it is. :)
Why are you explaining fanfic to me? I know what fanfic is.
Gamelit and LitRPG are different from fanfic, that's what all the discussion here is about.
Fanfic for games has no game elements in it, that is the distinction
the narrative or story of a game has to do with the game mechanics
I'm not a gamer, the phrase game mechanics sounds like it is referring to the mechanics related to the operation/play of the game. If I'm wrong, then explain what the game mechanics have to do with the game.
The game mechanics are what defines a game. Without the mechanics, you don't have a game, you have an interactive story.
So game mechanics are an integral part of the game. So game mechanics are a part of or strongly influence any story set in a game world, which you said earlier was not true.
Lord of the Rings needs to be brought back up.
There was an attempt at an MMO for it. Star Wars and Star Trek also have MMO versions.
A fanfic writer can write a story incorporating lore from within the games without incorporating the gameplay mechanics/elements. In such a circumstance, you are not dealing with GameLit, as the "game" elements have been stripped out.
What you have in fan fiction. Which brings us back to:
You can write fan fiction about video/online games without it being GameLit.
You can also write GameLit that is fan fiction.
It also is telling that in most games, the actual game lore also tends to ignore gameplay mechanics, as they're not concerned about their central characters being particularly balaced.
So in World of Warcraft, you can have a King who happens to be a Priest, that also happens to wear plate armor and wield swords. Something player characters in that class cannot do(use swords, or wear plate).
Seriously, what is so difficult here?
Story set in a setting that is not your own creation = fanfic, doesn't matter if it is a game, TV series, Movie, or Book.
Story that has game mechanics or where a minimum of 1 person is aware that they are in a game = gamelit/LitRPG
If you still get confused, than just don't use the tag! SOMEONE will surely make you aware that you could use Tag xyz
If you still get confused, than just don't use the tag! SOMEONE will surely make you aware that you could use Tag xyz
Well, unless the person suggesting it doesn't understand the tag.
I wonder if writings in Thinking Horndog's Swarm Cycle are fan fiction? I believe like most of the open universes on SOL he or his representative authors approve all the SOL Swarm stories. And how many wheels does the Swarm Cycle have?
I believe like most of the open universes on SOL
I asked Lazeez about opening a universe and controlling who posted in the universe. If I understood his reply - once the author opens the universe to other authors, the universe is public and he has no control over who posts in the universe.
For the Swarm Cycle universe, I understand that there is a group of authors who define "canon" and can declare if a story posted to the public universe conforms to canon. If my understanding of Lazeez's rules is correct, that group cannot stop an author from posting to the universe.
about opening a universe and controlling who posted in the universe
My understanding is there are 3 levels
Private where only you can post to it.
Fully public means that any other author can post in the universe
Public with restrictions means only authors you pre-authorize can post in the universe.
I just confirmed that is so by seeing what changes I could make to a universe I set up.
depends on a technicality.
Works in open Universes are not considered Fan-Fiction if you follow the rules of the creator. (Swarm)
works in semi-open Universes are considered canon if you are in the main-writer list. If not, then your work isn't considered canon and would be fan-fiction (like Whateley Academy)
works in commercial Universes are always considered fan-fiction if you are not one of the paid writers (Battletech, Shadowrun)
With open universes the main thing is "rule of the creator" if you break the rules, the work would be considered fanfiction, but this is a moot point in the end, not many care about the distinction.
Also, some of the fanbase considers the use of characters of other works in the same universe fanfiction. (if it is more than a cameo and the author of the original work didn't allow the use of said characters.)
