Forum: Author Hangout

Maybe they don't understand what it is?

That was my first thought as well. But why use a tag you don't understand? If I wouldn't know what 'Oral Sex' means, I wouldn't use that tag, either. Maybe they misinterpreted '2nd POV'? But how can you misinterpred it?

Firts is 'I'. Second is 'you'. Third is 'he/she/it. If your sentences often start with 'I', there is a very high probability that you're writing in first point of view. That isn't exactly rocket science.

Maybe they misinterpreted '2nd POV'? But how can you misinterpred it?

Perhaps they thought it meant the story is told by more than one MC giving a '2nd POV'?

I don't enjoy being told that my panties are wet ;)

You nailed it!

Your panties are wet, due to you standing in the river water up to your waist.

I don't wear panties!

put the reader into the story as one of the story's characters by telling the reader what they are doing in the story.

That resembles the way instruction manuals are written.

Does 2nd POV require present perfect?

How about:

Next you put six bolts in the six holes and finger tighten the nuts.

or:

After you put six bolts in the six holes, finger tighten the bolts.

Does 2nd POV require present perfect?
How about:
Next you put six bolts in the six holes and finger tighten the nuts.
or:
After you put six bolts in the six holes, finger tighten the bolts.

You are correct that instruction manuals are often written in 2POV.
They are usually written with "imperative statements", i.e. commands. Imperative statements are inherently in the second person and the word "you" is rarely used.
They also do not have the tenses with exist for "declarative statements", i.e. present, past, or future; perfect or not; continuous or not; active or passive.

Your example would possibly be written as:

Put the six bolts in the six holes.
Screw nuts onto the six bolts and tighten with your fingers.

In novels that are genuinely written in 2POV, the author uses second-person declarative statements, with a full range of tenses, to describe what the MC did, is doing, or will do, etc. It simply does not sound natural. While it is possible to write some stories in 2POV, those could always be written in 1POV instead.

I would view 2POV tags used here as if they were pictures of a dunce's hat: either the label is wrong (most would be), or the author did not choose the best POV for their particular story.

imperative statements

Imperative statements are somewhat more common in Latin. The motto of the University of Washington is "Lux Sit". Let there be Light. Lux is light. Sit is the imperative form of esse, to be. This faint strand of information courtesy of Hampton High School, 1959-1962, Latin Class. Omnia Gallia in tres partes divisa est. All Gaul is divided into three parts (and you have the most gaul of anyone.)

Looking around the net Caesar actually wrote "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres." But I remember it the other way. Its been a long time since high school. I don't remember much from way back then. And don't think I would like to relive it. Especially cafeteria food.

Its been a long time since high school. I don't remember much from way back then. And don't think I would like to relive it.

Likewise.
My memory from two years of being taught Latin at high school disappears rapidly once I get beyond, "amo, amis, amit, ... amamus? ...

My memory from two years of being taught Latin at high school disappears rapidly ...

I had four years of Latin and all I remember are a few fancy phrases.

'Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est.'

'Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est.'

Which roughly translates to 'I'm a pompous prat'.

Which roughly translates to 'I'm a pompous prat'.

Is there a Latin phrase which doesn't?

Is there a Latin phrase which doesn't?

I was going to say the only one I can think of is 'etcetera', but then, pompous prats would write that as 'et cetera'.

QED.

QED.

It would be more accurate if you'd end your conclusions with EHE.

It would be more accurate if you'd end your conclusions with EHE.

I know why you need me; I just don't want to rub your nose in it.

I know why you need me; I just don't want to rub your nose in it.

I wouldn't call it a need, you rather mean a luxury to me.

EHE.

EHE
Acronym Definition
EHE Education and Human Ecology (college; Ohio State University)
EHE Exceptional Human Experience
EHE Errare Humanum Est (Latin: To Err Is Human)
EHE Enterprise in Higher Education
EHE Extremely High Energy
EHE Expected Horizontal Error (engineering)"

The Latin one is "To make a mistake is human" (to forgive is against company policy.) Is "Err" English? Looks like it is, but I don't see it very often in conversation or print.
"Word Origin and History for err
v.
c.1300, from Old French errer "go astray, lose one's way; make a mistake; transgress," from Latin errare "wander, go astray, be in error," from PIE root *ers- "be in motion, wander around" (cf. Sanskrit arsati "flows;" Old English ierre "angry, straying;" Old Frisian ire "angry;" Old High German irri "angry," irron "astray;" Gothic airziþa "error, deception;" the Germanic words reflecting the notion of anger as a "straying" from normal composure). Related: Erred ; erring.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper"

Is "Err" English? Looks like it is, but I don't see it very often in conversation or print.

"To err on the side of" ... caution (or whatever) is relatively common.

EHE
Acronym Definition

You overlooked my German origin. 'Ehe' means marriage in German, no acronym at all.

You overlooked my German origin. 'Ehe' means marriage in German, no acronym at all.

I did not overlook your German origin. I dismissed the possibility that 'Ehe' could have meant marriage on the grounds you wrote it in all-caps. In English, that can only mean it is an acronym. :(

I did not overlook your German origin. I dismissed the possibility that 'Ehe' could have meant marriage on the grounds you wrote it in all-caps.

Of course, YOU didn't overlook it. The literary Charlie Ribble did. You knew EHE stood for 'errare humanum est'. After all, I was talking about you.

(and you have the most gaul of anyone.)

Oh, what impudence and effrontery you have!

Many insulting and justified comments have been directed at me on these forums, but no one has ever been so vicious before to suggest I am French! :(

What I think you meant is however beyond my control: I have a hyperactive gall bladder.

That resembles the way instruction manuals are written.

About in the same way that an Indy car resembles a Mini Cooper.

I suspect a lot of the authors who tag their stories "2nd POV" think that it means that there's more than one POV in the story, not that the story is written in 2nd person.

Capt Zapp also mentioned this. I guess you both are correct, it might be the reason for the misuse of the '2nd POV' tag. Although I wonder why someone would think a story told from different points of view would demand a special tag. That's neither rare nor something readers would need to be warned of.

I think it's something of a squick for some readers ... Should there be a tag for stories told from multiple viewpoints?

I think not. I'd define a squick as something some readers find objectionable no matter how well told the story is.
While multiple viewpoints are easier to get wrong, I don't think readers really want to be "warned" about an author's choice which may be both correct for their story and then well executed.

What do others think? Should there be a tag for stories told from multiple viewpoints?

You are kidding, right? There was no smilie, though. Just in case your question was serious, my answer is no.

What do others think? Should there be a tag for stories told from multiple viewpoints?

WOW! It's a tough crowd out there tonight, AJ.
I at least had the courtesy to explain why I thought your question was dumb. :-)

There's no consensus about what exactly constitutes head-hopping

I found a quote that may interest you, AJ.

I have plenty of friends who hop heads all the time. So far as I know, they all write romance, and in the romance category, head-hopping is accepted. Why? Because in a romance novel, the relationship is the most important character in the story. Not the hero. Not the heroine. The relationship. So the reader likes to know what both the hero and heroine are thinking in each scene.

As far as I can tell, this works for my head-hopping friends. I'll bet that 99% of their readers don't know or care that they're head-hopping. Readers just care whether the story is working for them.

I thought there was a general consensus - head hopping has been defined as the author having a character describe what other characters are thinking when there is no way for the character to know what the other characters think. If you use a different definition, you need to define it.

If a mere character tells what other characters are thinking or feeling, it's no more than a guess, unless the character is capable of mind-reading. The narrator or the characters themselves have to tell you what happens in their heads to make it head-hopping.

A simple definition for head-hopping is:

The viewpoint shifts between characters without a proper transition, which means a scene break or at the very least a new paragraph.

There's no consensus about what exactly constitutes head-hopping

And I thought it was science fiction with aliens whose heads could detach and jump around...

And I thought it was science fiction with aliens whose heads could detach and jump around...

No, head-hopping is done by demon-like aliens who occupy the head of the poor human, cause havoc in his life, feed of his life essence and after a few hours hop into the head of another human.

HM.

I thought it was a girl giving multiple guys head, hopping from one dick to the next.

I guess, thinking with the wrong head could be called head-hopping as well, if it happens frequently.

Head-hopping is not telling a story from multiple POVs. It's doing it incorrectly.

There is no such thing as 'incorrect story-telling'. However, there is the prevailing taste of time - presently shared preferences by a majority of readers.

Personly, I find head-hopping in first person stories atrocious to read, whereas I don't mind much if it's written in third person omniscient.

I find head-hopping in first person stories atrocious to read, whereas I don't mind much if it's written in third person omniscient.

Thank you for that bit of common sense.

I think first-person POV is something of a trendy fad and overused by inexperienced authors. I can see the appeal, and new authors choosing it because they hear others say it results in readers "identifying more closely with the MC".

I don't think POV is something authors should choose?! I think POV should flow as a consequence from the needs of the story.

Head-hopping becomes almost inevitable once an author chooses 1POV when their story should be told in 3POV.

I don't think POV is something authors should choose?! I think POV should flow as a consequence from the needs of the story.

Good point. I didn't think of it that way but have to agree.

I believe it's one of the first things the author needs to choose. First, whose POV is the story told from? Critical decision.

I probably expressed my point heavy-handedly. I still say the needs of the story must drive the choice of POV.

I think that still is what has happened when author chooses to develop a story that is best told from 1POV. During their planning they then need the willingness and competence to restrict the details of the story to one that is suitable for 1POV ... if you want a 1POV-egg you must be careful to select the right breed of chicken.

What I see too often is inexperienced authors deciding to use 1POV first - because they think it is "better" - without the understanding or the willingness to accept the limitations that imposes on the story.

They do it because they are the character telling the story.

The way I would state exactly the same idea is:

They are free to do that with a story that can be told by one character.

That would warn inexperienced writers as they build their "cart" they must keep in mind that the "horse" must eventually go at the front.

What Romance readers want is intimacy with the characters. They want to live the story through the characters. That's why they don't want to know what the other character is thinking at the time. If they're living the scene through the heroine, they don't want info she doesn't have. They want to know what she thinks the hero is thinking, but don't want to jump to the hero and learn what she doesn't know.

You are saying, "Readers want A. That's why B and ..."
I agree readers do want 'A'. I don't think you can know competent author cannot achieve achieve 'A' while doing 'B and ...' It appears to me the point of the blogger was it is possible, but only with very specific types of stories ... and when done by authors who know what they are doing.

That's the key. Know what you're doing and you can break any rule.

And to get back on topic ... I would say that applies even more to the rule 'Thou shalt not write in 2POV' than to 'Thou shalt not head-hop'.