Forum: Author Hangout

As long as you don't ask for the secret sauce you should be okay.

Unless you order it with a mountin' due......

Great! Another pizza discussion. Can't wait to get off topic. :)

I thought pizza was all about the topics; pepperoni, sausage, anchovies...

Yes, but I am trying for a balanced diet. :)

Then you need a double cheese burger in one hand... and a diet soda in the other...

Yes, but I am trying for a balanced diet. :)

Put your pizza on top of a dowel rod and spin it. That will check if it's properly balanced or not.

If we drive the end of the dowel rod into the center of joyR's double cheese burger. The burger will act as a stand and make it easier to spin the pizza.

But that would reduce the certainty that the pizza is perfectly balanced. :)

We can stand on each side of the pizza and nibble away until it is balanced. :)

No, you find the light spot and add pepperoni. :)

Oddly enough, I like ham, pineapple, and pizza sauce. Put them together and YUCK.

The strangest pizza I've seen was a breakfast pizza (scrambled eggs, bacon and breakfast sausage).

Have you ever heard of Chinese Pizza.

No.

Why would you capitalize "dressing

For the same reason the second word in a product name is usually capitalised.

Coco Cola
Burger King
Salad Cream
Ben & Jerry's
Chilli Sauce

etc etc

If I was using it as a generic, rather than as a specific, then yes, lower case. Check your cupboards for further examples. :)

You are overlooking that the manufacturer produces multiple types of dressing and gives each type a name.

That would be correct for the internal documents of a manufacturer. They'd be identifying a particular product.
It's not correct when others are referring to some ranch-style dressing from an unidentified manufacturer. Then it is just a generic name of a type of thing.

You are overlooking that the manufacturer produces multiple types of dressing and gives each type a name. Ranch Dressing (capital D) is the name the manufacturer assigned to one of their products (i.e., a specific type of dressing). As such, assigning the name Ranch Dressing to a thing (product) makes it a Proper Name and Proper Names are capitalized.

Exactly. Thank you.

I was beginning to wonder if it was a UK/USA thing.

There are expressions that can be used as proper nouns or common nouns in different circumstances.
The question is whether the way they are being used refers to one, and only one, thing; or whether it is being used to refer to an example of a type of thing.
So, a manufacturer would refer to their ranch dressing as 'Ranch Dressing', while most others may refer to that manufacturer's dressing as simply 'ranch dressing'.

You are overlooking that the manufacturer produces multiple types of dressing and gives each type a name. Ranch Dressing (capital D) is the name the manufacturer assigned to one of their products (i.e., a specific type of dressing). As such, assigning the name Ranch Dressing to a thing (product) makes it a Proper Name and Proper Names are capitalized.

What happens if you apply the same logic to products such as white bread and roasted peanuts? Do you use capitals for those too?

What happens if you apply the same logic to products such as white bread and roasted peanuts? Do you use capitals for those too?

That would depend upon the context. If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised. Simple.

For an example of how peanuts vs Peanuts is used see this link.

If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised. Simple.

Whether or not you should treat something as a proper noun is not based on what others may have named it - it is based on the way you are using the noun.

If you are identifying something as a particular example from a class of things, then you treat it is a proper noun.
If you are simply identifying something is a member of some class of things, then you treat it is a common noun.

I should call a loaf 'white bread' when its baker may call the same loaf 'White Bread'. There is no inconsistency in that - because we are identifying different things.

EDIT TO ADD
You could also have one shopper asking, "Give me a loaf of white bread," and the next asking, "Give me a loaf of your White Bread." They are identifying different things. The first is asking for a loaf of bread of the type that is commonly called 'white bread', while the second is asking for a loaf of a particular product that someone has named 'White Bread'.

You could also have one shopper asking, "Give me a loaf of white bread," and the next asking, "Give me a loaf of your White Bread." They are identifying different things. The first is asking for a loaf of bread of the type that is commonly called 'white bread', while the second is asking for a loaf of a particular product that someone has named 'White Bread'.

Isn't that exactly what I wrote..?? (In fewer words)

If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised. Simple.

Isn't that exactly what I wrote..?? (In fewer words)

If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised.

I'm not sure. It is not precisely clear how to interpret what you wrote. I interpreted it as meaning if a loaf is generic, then everyone uses lower case, but if it's been named by its baker, then everyone uses capitals. I would disagree with that interpretation.

That would make whether something is written as a proper noun an inherent property of an object. That is not so. Whether or not a noun is proper or common is a grammatical concept - and a property of the noun, not the object. It depends on the way the noun is being used.

I would revise what you wrote to say exactly what I meant as follows: (with my changes in italics)
If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then you use lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then they may use Capitals, but you usually would not. You would only use capitals to show you are restricting your meaning to one particular type of bread. It's not always Simple.

Thanks, but I'll stick with my version.

Thanks, but I'll stick with my version.

Do you want the consensus opinion of the more experienced writers who post on this forum?
If so, I suggest you email me a sample of your writing (via my author page). I'll identify any changes I would make and you may then ask others if they agree.

Thank you for your kind offer, but it's not necessary, because as far as I can recall, none of my stories include references to Ranch Dressing, so there is no need.

However, should a future story include contentious condiments, I'll reconsider your kind offer.

Thank you for your kind offer, but it's not necessary, because as far as I can recall, none of my stories include references to Ranch Dressing, so there is no need.

However, should a future story include contentious condiments, I'll reconsider your kind offer.

As you wish.
I would certainly want to check if another writer told me it appears to them that I do not understand the difference between proper and common nouns.

How about I break this down to simplify it for you?

You wrote:

You could also have one shopper asking, "Give me a loaf of white bread," and the next asking, "Give me a loaf of your White Bread." They are identifying different things.

Ok so far. You continued:

The first is asking for a loaf of bread of the type that is commonly called 'white bread',

I had previously stated:

If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT.

You continued:

while the second is asking for a loaf of a particular product that someone has named 'White Bread'.

And I had already stated:

If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised.

It is patently obvious that we agree on usage, yet you seem not to comprehend fully. To that end and in light of your generous offer, might I reciprocate by offering the same courtesy? By all means feel free to email me a sample of your writing. (via our brand new service) I'll identify any changes I would make and you may then ask others if they agree.

This is the statement I could not comprehend, because it is ambiguous.

If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised.

Does that mean everyone should use capitals, or only the baker?
I identified how I had interpreted it, to mean 'everyone', and all further comments were based on that assumption.
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It is still not absolutely clear to me what you believe. Based on your comment, "It is patently obvious that we agree," I now assume you meant 'only the baker'.
* *
Regarding looking at each others' writing, I use the same pen name for all of my editing, writing, and posts on forums. You can find my writing and email me easily enough. I cannot find your writing because it appears you post comments here under a different pen name to your stories.
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You might note I have only posted one short story. I spend a large proportion of my waking hours on editing stories for others - who rely on me to know things like this, or look them up when needed.

Never assume.

At school one of our classes was entitled "English comprehension". I have no idea if you took those lessons or indeed if schools you attended had a similar class.

If you wrote "White bread" I take it to mean you are referencing a generic product, whilst if you capitalise and write "White Bread" then obviously you are referring to a specific product with that name.

Or colloquially, just use your loaf.

I will freely admit that todays use of English (sadly) differs widely from the English of my youth. The once vaunted "BBC English" accent and pronunciation were slaughtered long ago. If you hold certain views on the use of the English language, far be it from me to gainsay you. Personally I will continue using the English language in the manner I was taught, and with the Oxford English Dictionary as my reference.

I hadn't noted the number of stories you have posted, though from the tone of your posts I would have placed the count far higher.

Never assume.

Assumptions are okay - provided you state them.

from the tone of your posts I would have placed the count far higher.

I do have a significant body of work, but it's in the stories of others which I have edited.

First you posed this question:

Do you want the consensus opinion of the more experienced writers who post on this forum?

Then you proposed the following solution:

If so, I suggest you email me a sample of your writing (via my author page). I'll identify any changes I would make and you may then ask others if they agree.

However, now that you have pointed out that you have in fact only posted one story, I fail to see how your solution is valid. After all, with one story posted you hardly qualify as one of "the more experienced writers who post on this forum". Any newbie would, by definition, have posted one story.

I also find it rather delusional of you to openly claim that:

I do have a significant body of work, but it's in the stories of others which I have edited.

The stories written by others is not YOUR work.

Obviously I in no way intend criticism upon editors, however experienced.

After all, with one story posted you hardly qualify as one of "the more experienced writers who post on this forum".

I have detailed, relevant experience for the kinds of issues I contribute to on these forums, grammar and punctuation rather than plot and character development.
I've surely put more effort into learning those things that most writers on the site.
You did not appear to believe the point I was explaining. That's understandable, so I made a sincere suggestion intended to allow you to
check with others.
I apologise for trying to be helpful. I won't make that mistake again.

Apology accepted.

Wikipedia doesn't capitalize it.

There will be permafrost in Hell before I accept any Wikipedia information as absolute fact.

I wrote "Ranch dressing." Why would you capitalize "dressing?"

I would not capitalise either of them.
For "Ranch dressing" to be correct the dressing must have been named after something with the name "Ranch". Think of "Caesar salad" and "Waldorf salad" named after a specific person and hotel.
I would not use "Ranch Dressing" either. That has just an ordinary noun 'dressing' modified by the adjective 'ranch'. What is the specific thing that was once named "Ranch Dressing"?

it's complicated

Yes, it can be. After making my post I thought of an example where I would capitalise "Ranch Dressing".
If I wrote a recipe book, I would call my recipe for ranch dressing, 'Ranch Dressing', because then I would be using capitals for name of my one-and-only recipe, rather than the generic name of a type of product.