Forum: Author Hangout

I write the entire book before I start publishing, and ensure that it's been edited and proofread (that means finding an editor and one or two proofreaders).

I do the same, and then break it into chunks of several thousands words to post at SoL, making sure the breaks are in appropriate spots, thus each post goes up or down a bit to do that.

It's impossible to do when no one has read the book yet. :)

Hopefully, your editors will be truthful enough to warn you when something just isn't working. Beyond that, that's why authors rely on beta-readers, to warn us when a story causes unexpected negative responses which need to be addressed. Just because a story hasn't been posted/published doesn't mean it hasn't been read!

Not all of us have easy access to potential beta-readers.

Many authors over the years have relied on relatives (spouses and girlfriends, in particular). Asking readers who regularly comment on stories is another decent source. The key, though, is trust. Beta-readers need to be painfully honest. Family members will often pull their punches.

One of my regular beta-readers is my 86-year-old mother. Although she's not overly fond of sex scenes, if I know I've got an issue with a book, I'll watch her as she reads my stories, noting where she's at anytime she puts the book down to determine anything she might not want to tell me explicitly (i.e. "This part sucks rotten chickens!").

Giving a select group of readers the opportunity to have an impact on your stories is a powerful incentive.

Just a suggestion. If you get reader feedback from someone who displays a sincere interest in helping improve the story, you have a potential beta-reader. Just ask if they are interested.

You mostly write no or minimal sex sorties with nothing particularly out there. I couldn't share my stories with my family if I wanted to.

My 86-year-old mother was never fond of the incest scenes in my 6 book Catalyst series, but read the entire thing anyway, which I always figured was a testament in itself. But she was the one who alerted me to the problems with Cate being unpopular with many readers. However, in her case, she's not always completely honest with me, so I've got to figure out what she's thinking by watching as she reads the story. Not a simple process.

It's nice to get and can be constructive, even when negative, but in the end it's your story.

Good advice for what the editors tell you, too.

My one story (over on FS) was "complete" when I first started posting, and I was going to post a chapter every other day thanks to the scheduled submission feature.

Well, the "complete" turned out to be "complete and utter crap" in retrospect. A reader reached out to me after the first 8 or so chapters and offered some sage advice based on a lifetime of editing experience. I wound up revising the story on the fly and was lucky that the finished product was much better than the original.

Trent, it sounds like you're already on the right track, but if you need story advice from another author, drop me a line. I may not be able to dedicate as much time to your story as a regular (proofreading) editor, as another author, I can focus on story issues, plot holes, how to flesh out the story, and how to patch lapses in the story.

For Noddy, that's another important aspect to writing. It's always good to build resources. Along with decent editors (and you really need separate proofreaders, beta-readers and content editors), it's also good to have fellow authors you can turn to when you run into difficulties.

When I first started, another author who wrote along similar lines and I got together and we'd bounce story ideas off each other--mainly supplying each other with 'problematic' chapters to get their take on it. The experience helped us both. This forum is a good source for information, but it's not the same as having someone to turn to when something just 'isn't working' in a specific story.

Fellow authors are more concerned with story issues than English usage. These items consist of story pacing, story development, story discovery, research, character development and backstory, all topics most editors aren't equipped to deal with.

The only thing I would add is, when you finish writing the story, proofread it at least twice and edit it, before you send it off to your editor.

Also note, there's a BIG difference between proofreading (checking for typos) and revising (changing a story to make the entire story more consistent from beginning to end). By the time you reach the end of a story, often the story premise has changed considerably from when you first began, as you learn about the characters and the situations.

Rewriting is difficult, because each time I try to rewrite a chapter from scratch, I find the story going in an entirely different direction, so revisions are necessary in those circumstances. The revision phase is also a good time to address issues like pacing, story and character development, and foreshadowing (so the readers aren't completely surprised by a surprise ending).

True. For me, proofreading is about checking the flow of the story and making sure my transitions between scenes are clear, and the speaker in dialog is evident. I correct any typos and grammatical error in the process, but that is not my focus. To me editing is checking for typos, proper word selection and usage, sentence structure, etc. I usually do that from the bottom up, one paragraph at a time.

Editing is much closer to story design and execution, are there holes in the story, are characters and their dialog consistent, are characters too young to have sex and other issues where the author made choices about the story the editor thinks can be improved.

That's a Developmental Editor (also called a Structural Editor).

I'm going to get the terminology wrong so I won't name the other two, but they are:

1. checks for typos and such.

2. checks sentence structure, phrasing, word choice, etc.

Good content editors are very rare, and their skills are very much in demand. They are so much in demand that my policy is to not ask for their help until the writer and editor have resolved most of the language issues - leaving only the story-telling issues that require their specialist skills.

Unfortunately, Structural (Content) editors also address plot holes, and thus often require a rewrite of a significant portion of any given story, meaning all that work 'cleaning up the story' before submitting it to the Content editor is essentially pointless.

That's why many (content editors) recommend bringing them in BEFORE you write the entire story, but that's largely impractical, not to mention prohibitively expensive. However, it would probably be better to send your completed first draft of a story for them to review, so that you can clear up any potential issue during the review process (with the understanding they'll rip your frequent typos and unclear passages apart).

There are a few Structural editors on SOL, though they often do a mix of proofreading and content. Most editors are equipped to do each type of editing, but authors generally contract them to do one or the other, not all three.

That's why many (content editors) recommend bringing them in BEFORE you write the entire story, but that's largely impractical,

I know one Structural Editor who works off the synopsis. Since some authors do detail planning before writing, they write the synopsis before writing the story.

No criticism intended, and I may be wrong.

Not a problem. I appreciate constructive criticism. It is a good idea to standardize these types of definitions so everyone is on the same page.

During my time as a technical writer, we used the definitions that I defined above. Basically, editing was to fix grammatical errors to include typos. Proofreading was to make sure the document contain what was needed and presented the information in a suitable format.

I will go with either set of definitions. What definitions do the rest of you want to use?

What definitions do the rest of you want to use?

Why not use the industry standard for fiction?

Copy Editor
What everyone here is calling a proofreader. Checks for spelling errors, grammar errors, punctuation errors.

Line Editor
Points out passive voice, wordiness, overused words, too many sentences starting the same way, etc.

Developmental Editor
Point of view errors, unbelievable characters, plot holes, too much telling, inconsistent character behavior, info dumps, etc. They look at the big picture

What do view as the function of a proofreader?

What do view as the function of a proofreader?

Proof readers are the last ones to check it out. They check to see if there are any errors before it goes to publication. They're the final eyes.

I don't really know much about proof reading.

ETA: I like bondsman's definition.

Sometimes I give up on a story and never post it. That's why none of my stories are incomplete.

I rarely abandon stories, though I have 'unpublished' stories which weren't well received. Usually what happens is I'll get a story idea, develop it, but never get around to writing it. If I start and encounter story problems, I'll usually put it aside until I figure out what the underlying story issue is, and then rework the story so it works out.

Over the years, I've shelved many books which I eventually end up publishing. Hell, I shelved my first story ("The Catalyst") for months, started rewriting the entire thing from scratch, then went back and revised the original before I could get it to work. Another revision (expanding it from 4 books to 6) finally settled things.

If I start and encounter story problems, I'll usually put it aside until I figure out what the underlying story issue is, and then rework the story so it works out.

Sometimes I lose interest in a story so I abandon it. Sometimes I don't think readers will enjoy it so I abandon it. Sometimes I get bored with the characters so I abandon it.

The most important thing about writing is simple, though. Keep writing.

One important element, always work towards the ending. That generally means knowing how the story is supposed to end, and weaving the story so all the elements coalesce by the end. As StarFleetCarl suggests, each story takes on a life of its own, which is good for the creative process. But you want to ensure each change in the story gets incorporated so the story reads smoothly by the ending.

One example I found was an insistence by most on stating that all good writers should at times be breaking just about every rule/guideline/suggestion about grammar, punctuation, and style.

I would stress you should such rules reasonably well before you start breaking them. It's more important to establish trust among your readers that you know what you're doing first.

Ross's advice is apt. You shouldn't try to 'break rules' your first time out. Instead, stick to the basics and don't try 'new styles of writing' before you understand what works, what doesn't, and why. It's fine to try new things, but you need to understand the risks inherent in flouting standards, and if you've never written anything, you really don't have much basis to evaluate those standards.

Instead, focus on the basic story elements. As Switch stated, you want to focus on developing your characters, establishing the central conflict and (my own addition) figuring out what message your story is trying to convey, as this will define how you present your story.

they do the final "proof" of the story

What do you see a proof reader doing in proofing our stories? Would it be just a check for consistency, or would they do something else.

What do you see a proof reader doing in proofing our stories? Would it be just a check for consistency, or would they do something else.

A "proof" is just what it sounds like. They're looking for obvious mistakes. The types of things that leap off the page, like typos, incorrect grammar or punctuation, incorrect character names, etc. It's a more or less superficial overview for things otherwise missed (not to belittle the effort, but it's not an 'indepth' examination of the story based on content and context).

Ideally, the last person to read something before it is published will have never seen it before.

Typically, I'll do a final review (after all the editors are finished with it) just before I publish, and again as I post each chapter here. I'll often make several last-minute changes, but not enough to warrant having my editors reexamine the entire document. (It's a recipe for disaster, but so far, it hasn't bitten me too bad. However, with my current book, I'm making more changes than I normally do.)

It's an editor people here talk about.

We're discussing two different uses of the same phrase. The original term referred to someone who's explicit job was to check the final copy of a printed document to ensure the printing press didn't screw up the copy. However, over time the meaning shifted, as it often does, to include ANY review of copy to ensure no errors exist before printing, publishing or posting.

Dictionary.com defines it as: "to read (printers' proofs, copy, etc.) in order to detect and mark errors to be corrected.

Note: "Printer's proofs", is only a single thing that proofreaders review, it's not the only one!

That said, the term 'proofreader' is actually a common-reference for a 'copy editor'. The two jobs are essentially the same. The only difference is that it's more common among those outside of the printing industry (i.e. doesn't work for an established publishing house).

It's easier to review the different types of editors, and when they're typically used (i.e. under what contexts): Different types of editors (from thehelpfulwriter.com), which explicitly lists "proofreader" as a distinct type of editor!

Note: Sorry if I misinterpreted your reply, Switch, but it sounded like you're arguing that a proofreader isn't an editor.

I may be wrong but I believe errors can be created at any stage in the procedure.

Often the way to fix a reported issue with a sentence or paragraph is solved by cutting and pasting part of the text within the story, say move the front have of the sentence to the back of it, etc; or to change a couple of words later in the paragraph. In either case you can end up with error by either not cutting cleanly in the first case and by not doing a proper continuity check in the second place. Many errors can occur when making a change, and they can easily be over looked by the next editor, thus it's noted when a reader reports it.

And that's why we have someone else read what we write first ...

and demonstrates what happens when you post without having it edited - if I had a dollar for every time I've mistyped certain words I'd be the riches man in the world. The big ones are (error/right word): sue/use - ti/it - fro/for - teh/the - out/our - - most are due to an issue with one hand working faster than the other, and most of the rest are simply hitting the key beside the one I want, with the last set of errors on original typing being my finger typing away while my mind is in the middle of the next sentence and the fingers wander off to where they think they should be or are used to being.

And that's why we have someone else read what we write first

Yeah, if we had editors checking our Forum posts, we would overwork them and nothing would get posted. :)

True, and I provide feedback in a similar manner. Although in one case that I remember all I said was 'too many errors to list', and suggested an editor.

Agreed.