Home ยป Forum ยป Author Hangout

Forum: Author Hangout

Writing with aphantasia

Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

Just ran across this article: People Who Can't Picture Anything Are Rewriting the Science of Imagination. I'm really not sure it's the best article, but it triggered a few thoughts.

Ever since I heard of aphantasia (it's a surprisingly new thing - the first recorded mention of it is 1880, but the term, and academic study of it, comes from 2015), I've known I'm probably a aphantasic.

If you don't know the term, aphantasia is not being able to form pictures in your mind. The 'apple test' is one of the classic tests for it. The prompt is: think of a bright, red apple. Picture it in your mind.

I can't, unless you give me a picture of a bright, red apple. I know what one looks like, but I don't see it as a picture. More or less, what I have in my mind is the concept of 'apple' applied to the concept of 'red'. 'Apples' are round, have stems, and so forth. I can broaden it out to yellow apples, green apples, and so forth. None of them come with pictures.

As far as I know, I've always been this way. What we know of it suggests that most people are that way, but some people acquire it via aging, injury, etc.

All of this is almost beside the point. It's just been a curiosity for me. Nice to know, because I've always been confused when people talk about 'mental pictures' of things. I'm good with tasks that allegedly require 'mental pictures' (mental spacial manipulation, etc), but I think that's a good memory for geometric relationships.

What got me to thinking was another test, the 'ball test'. This has two parts:
1. Close your eyes and imagine a ball resting on a table
2. Picture someone walking up and pushing the ball, then watch what happens next.

I can't do that, but I immediately jump to a mental model of 'ball' sitting on 'table', 'person' walking up and pushing it, ball 'rolling'. Great, right?

Then come the questions:
What color and size is the ball?
What gender and appearance is the person?
What shape and material is the table?

Um ... I don't know that? (Cue Monty Python 'Aaaaaaaaaa' off the bridge, into the pit). To have a concept of 'ball', I didn't need color or size. Ditto 'person', when the role of that person was 'ball-pusher'. And the same for the table.

I strongly suspect this affects my writing. I don't naturally form mental pictures of anything, so details that my mind thinks are extraneous are ignored. That's not necessarily a bad thing - writers get poked every so often to 'leave room for the imagination.'

But it also means I sometimes get questions from an editor such as, 'This person has been in your story for a long time now, and I don't know how tall they are.' Well, yes. I don't either! But, most likely, I should know that. I just don't, because it never occurred to me to ask the question.

I know how tall my major characters are, because that matters and I wrote it down, and sometimes it gets referenced. But I have to go look at it.

I know there are at least one or two writers here with aphantasia. There might be more - allegedly about 4% of us are like this. But who knows?

But I'm curious about how other people perceive the world. I can't do what other people do, and I spent quite a lot of time assuming no one else could, either, and that people forming 'mental pictures' of stories or characters was either a cute metaphor or maybe 'so-and-so is X tall, Y weight, etc, and celebrity A is about that, so they probably look more-or-less like celebrity A, who I know I think is pretty/handsome/plain/ugly/etc, so that's them' - a very conceptual, thought-based approach. It certainly changes what I think other people do while reading, and most likely while writing.

LucyAnneThorn ๐Ÿšซ

@Grey Wolf

I had never put a name to it, but it's an issue that I have to varying degrees. At times, I can actually imagine pictures, though usually not perfectly, at other times I can't at all, or something in between. I'm pretty sure it's a result of head trauma, as I remember being immersed in pictures of everything I read when I was young. It changed after I had a bad concussion and retrograde amnesia that took half a year from my memory. It goes hand in hand with prosopagnosia - a difficulty to remember faces (an even younger term from the mid 1940s), which in turn makes it incredibly hard to remember names if there isn't a meaningful story and emotional anchor attached to the person. It feels like the visual thing often happens in a part of my brain that's just out of reach and lacking the necessary "wires".

It also means that, depending on the story I'm writing, I sometimes get stuck when I need detailed visual descriptions. Sometimes mental exercises like autogenous training get me into a state where visualizing works enough, sometimes (less often) I get up and it just does, other times I'm stuck for days. AI has been a huge help in that regard lately. I can throw a relevant part of a story at an LLM and tell it to create an image AI prompt, then generate an image that is reaonably close to what I need to describe and that fills in some of the blanks I'm struggling with.

It seems I'm still lucky that it's not all black and white for me. Totally with you about the geometric visual models to the rescue.

mrherewriting ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

I can create anything with as much detail as I like in my mind, it's a shame I can't put it to paper, except for blindness.

I can't picture blindness.

I'm talking about real blindness, no perception of anything visual. They say it's like trying to look at the world through your elbow, or the back of your head: There's nothing there. There's nothing to see. How can I picture what I don't see behind me in front of me? I can't. I don't know what it looks like.

That's the only thing I can't picture.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@mrherewriting

I can't picture blindness.

Glaucoma blinded me in my left eye. When I had cataract surgery on my right eye, I went home with that eye bandaged. Total blindness.

Want to know what it's like? Simply close both eyes. Better yet since the tendency is to cheat, put eye patches on both eyes. Patches that even block out light. And then try to do things.

When I was home that day, sitting on the couch for hours until my eye recovered enough to remove the bandage, that's when I began trying to figure out ways to end my life if glaucoma blinded my right eye some day.

Replies:   mrherewriting
mrherewriting ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

You're still able to see light and shades of light, including darkness.

Look up "what do people with a complete lack of vision see" and the "elbow analogy".

What do you see behind you, right now, while looking forward? Imagine that all around you, so they describe. It's the complete lack of anything.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@mrherewriting

You're still able to see light and shades of light, including darkness.

Some light, but not much. And nothing else. When my wife led me from the car in my garage to my living room couch, I was too afraid to walk with her guiding me. I couldn't see anything and was afraid I was going to walk into something. I had to walk behind her with my hands on her shoulders.

I've been talking to my cornea eye surgeon and my glaucoma eye doctor about taking out my blind eye because of the pain I'm in. My cornea is shot, I have a tube and shunt in it, had 8 surgeries which really messed up the cornea, have Bullous Keratopathy (blisters form on my cornea), and other problems. The cornea surgeon keeps pointing out that although I'm blind, I can see light which is different than being totally blind as you point out.

Replies:   mrherewriting
mrherewriting ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

That's a shame. Real world ailments are a pain, nothing fun about them. The business I entered way back when, I was as young as you could be and most people I interacted with day after day where a decade ore more older than myself. Hopefully, things get better for you.

Pixy I ๐Ÿšซ

@Grey Wolf

I have to admit to finding it really strange, and contradictory, that people who can't picture things in their mind, can write good stories, as you so obviously can. I would have thought the main ability of a writer was the ability to picture things in their mind.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Pixy I

A significant AI tell is scene-setting at the beginning of a section of generated text eg

Chapter 666

Jasmine looked on with quiet satisfaction--Steve sitting in his fireside chair knitting bootees for the cats, Angie at the table sticking needles into her eyeballs to test whether that would help her stay awake during Political Science, Paige in the middle of the room dewinging flies in mid-flight using her samurai sword.

AJ

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

That made me laugh - thanks!

Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@Pixy I

I think it's that I never had that ability. Or ... well, heck. I did have a significant concussion in first grade. Maybe I could visualize before that? I would never remember it, if I could.

I've been a reader all of my life, and I know how I relate to books. Descriptions matter, but they matter in a factual way, not a visual way. I can't read a description and picture the character, but I know what they 'look like' to my satisfaction. Maybe that's because, for everyone I know, once I can't see them, they're a collection of facts, by and large.

Amusingly, I think I might have just flashed on someone's face for a fraction of a second while typing that. That would tend to reinforce the hypothesis that it's persistent 'miscommunication' in the brain that sometimes works. Also, it's a picture of their face, one I've seen a bunch of times. Outside of that picture? Nothing.

And it wouldn't help me write.

As I said, I suspect it's why I'm sometimes either dinged on not providing good descriptions, starving visualizers (the vast majority of the audience) of the ability to picture a setting, or alternatively writing with enough structure to give an overall sense of things while letting them fill in the blanks to their own satisfaction.

Not sure, but it's interesting to ponder.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Grey Wolf

I'm not an expert but that model of the brain doesn't seem consistent with an article I read recently about a Stanford University study. My archaic computer can't access the actual study, but here is a link to another article about it.

AJ

Replies:   LucyAnneThorn  Grey Wolf
LucyAnneThorn ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

I'm not an expert but that model of the brain doesn't seem consistent with an article I read recently about a Stanford University study. My archaic computer can't access the actual study, but here is a link to another article about it.

Not sure how that study is in anyway related to the topic. It just says that the brain is split in two parts, one for conscious processes, the other for autonomous ones, which evevolved as separate organs in primitive organisms. We're talking about conscious processes here. Those are handled by at least 14 known cortices in the conscious part which are interconnected. How well and in what exact way they are connected varies a bit from person to person.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@LucyAnneThorn

It's probably not relevant to Grey Wolf's condition.

My interest is because of a story I was writing, in which the protagonist suffered a blow to the head. I've been trying to research where that blow would have had to land to produce the desired side effects.

AJ

Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

One of the common threads in this is that existing models have trouble explaining aphantasia, thus encouraging development of new models.

For a phenomenon (I hesitate to say 'condition' or, worse, 'disorder', etc, because it doesn't feel like a 'problem' to me) that was just given a name and recognized a decade or so ago, that isn't that surprising.

irvmull ๐Ÿšซ

@Grey Wolf

Interesting.

This may explain why I find illustrated stories disappointing.

I can create an image of a character just from reading. Sometimes not even physical details or dimensions are required. A good writer can tell you a lot without directly "telling you" anything.

Then I'm disappointed when a (usually AI-generated) image of that character shows up, and isn't even close to what I had imagined.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@irvmull

I'm 'eh' on illustrated stories. The thing is, I can tell an image is 'wrong' for me, even if I didn't know what the person looks like in a visualization way.

Picking one of my own characters, I can't tell what Jasmine looks like, exactly. But I can tell you a whole lot of looks she doesn't have. 'Pick an image that doesn't have those looks' would work, if I was illustrating. But it wouldn't work for readers like you, so no.

If I was to do cover art with characters, I suspect it would be anime-style, clearly not 'them' but 'close enough'. Still a risk of hitting someone's 'nope, that's not them' level of disappointment, but better than a specific photorealistic look.

Likely AI-generated, because I'm a lousy artist :) (could be from lack of visualizing). Hiring someone is a possibility, but not something I'll be doing anytime soon.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Grey Wolf

I'm a lousy artist :) (could be from lack of visualizing)

That's interesting. When I used to draw and paint (pencil and acrylics), if I had nothing but a blank canvas I couldn't draw anything. But if I had a photograph next to the canvas, my drawing or painting would look just like the photo.

Back to Top

 

WARNING! ADULT CONTENT...

Storiesonline is for adult entertainment only. By accessing this site you declare that you are of legal age and that you agree with our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.


Log In