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Thoughts on the values of erotic literature

sublock ๐Ÿšซ

As I get older and older I do seem to be moving away from visual pornography and more and more towards reading long-form erotica.

I don't have any strongly-felt opinions about the ubiquitous digital pornified world we've lived in that so many people do have - in a fair number of ways, my porn-watching has broadened my horizons and given me insight into my sexuality. And there are certainly some examples of truly admirable sexual athleticism on display out there that are fascinating. Porn can be fun, it's always been a fun thing to explore for me, I feel pretty lucky that I don't feel too many hangups or guilt or regret about watching it that some people do.

But it's interesting to me that as I get a little older (and probably more tired and more invested in a life with meaning) I seem to be turning more and more to the written word, that there's something a little more personal and vivid about character-based reader-interpreted sex. And I've started to feel a little bit superior about it?

Like I don't think that long-form erotica, especially written towards heterosexual men like me, will ever be more than a niche compared to the vast oceans of free wham bam thank you ma'am video porn at our fingertips, which is a little saddening. And I do wish it would become a little more popular, maybe a little less stigmatized. It's very clear that it's still very much a hobbyist form of escapism/creativity/expression (not that there aren't people trying - and likely mostly failing - to make some money off of it), and while that is probably what keeps it pretty marginalized (which sucks) there's also a certain purity to so many erotica authors mostly doing it for the love.

Thank you, erotica authors. I hope you're getting at least some coffee $$ out of your efforts, or some nice validation from readers and appreciators.

Diamond Porter ๐Ÿšซ

@sublock

It is my impression, based on admittedly limited exploration, that porn videos have plots that would be classified as "Stroke Story" here.

Videos in the "No Sex" or "Minimal Sex" classification are produced as mainstream movies.

I suspect that nobody sees a market that would support videos with sex-to-plot ratios in between those. If you are looking for such stories, text is your best option.

Of course, text also offers the reader the ability to imagine their own preferred features on the characters.

Replies:   sublock
sublock ๐Ÿšซ

@Diamond Porter

Before ubiquitous immediate-satisfaction internet porn, there was a market for a much wider spectrum of eroticism - lots of softcore, and even hardcore was sometimes elevated artistically or more complex plots than "I can't pay the plumber" were explored.

I wonder if we'll ever see that again?

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@sublock

It's my understanding that there's a fair amount of porn (tiny in comparision to zero-plot, but still substantial) that has a story and characters and fits into e.g. 'much sex'. Most of it is marketed as 'female-centric porn', though there are some 'female-centric' producers that are still 'stroke story'-level.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@sublock

And I do wish it would become a little more popular, maybe a little less stigmatized.

As Bob Dylan said: "The Times they are A-Changing."

If you search for the most sexually graphic mainstream movies you'll get after the list: "are widely cited by critics and audiences as the most graphically explicit non-pornographic narrative feature films ever released."

So why are they "non-pornographic"? Because the critics say so.

DH Lawrence was labeled a pornographer during his lifetime. His work contained explicit descriptions of sexual intercourse, used heavy profane and "four-letter" words (like "fuck" and "cunt"), and openly portrayed female sexual pleasure outside of marriage. That was porn back then. But "The Times They are A-Changing." Today those same novels are celebrated and taught in universities.

Jump to the 1970s and we have Erica Jong's "Fear of Flying" which coined the term "zipless fuck." It shocked 1970s readers but ended up selling more than 20 million copies worldwide. And when my wife was going for her masters in English Literature, she had the same professor Erica Jong had. That was unfortunate because he wanted my wife to write like Jong which she couldn't/wouldn't.

Today, it's almost mandatory for mainstream authors to throw in a sex scene or two even though they're not needed. But it's not acceptable to write the erotica you're talking about. Not unless you're one of the lucky few. Or maybe one of the "skilled" few.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

DH Lawrence was labeled a pornographer during his lifetime. His work contained explicit descriptions of sexual intercourse, used heavy profane and "four-letter" words (like "fuck" and "cunt"), and openly portrayed female sexual pleasure outside of marriage. That was porn back then.

Yes, but despite the initial porn label his novels weren't "long-form erotica."

It's always the balance between the sex and the plot / character development. Diana Gabaldon wrote strong sex scenes (and her commentary on how to write them is excellent), but it still doesn't make her "Outlander" novels erotica.

Maybe erotica can't support a long story because doing it over and over again leaves the characters (ETA: and the reader) exhausted.

ETA: Nick Scipio's "Summer Camp" series might qualify as long-form erotica.

~ JBB

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Bondi Beach

Yes, but despite the initial porn label his novels weren't "long-form erotica."

By whose definition? His novels were long-form erotica.

I disagree that "erotica can't support a long story because doing it over and over again leaves the characters (ETA: and the reader) exhausted." You're talking about poorly written stories. Those are like their sister porn movies.

"The Story of O" is an example of an erotica long story (full-length novel). It was well-written because the author had talent. She was an intellectual, a journalist, an author, a literary critic, and even a member of a jury for several literary awards. Of course she used a pen name so no one at the time knew she was the author.

It can be done, but, like any other form of fiction, there needs to be talent. It's even harder because of the porn stigma.

Joe_Bondi_Beach ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

"The Story of O" is an example of an erotica long story (full-length novel). It was well-written because the author had talent. She was an intellectual, a journalist, an author, a literary critic, and even a member of a jury for several literary awards. Of course she used a pen name so no one at the time knew she was the author.

It can be done, but, like any other form of fiction, there needs to be talent. It's even harder because of the porn stigma.

Agreed.

Although I don't think the balance of sex to plot is close enough in Lawrence's "Women in Love" (about power expressed through sex) or "Lady Chatterley's Lover" (a love story, the clash of class).

Porn requires a level of detail (sex, guns, trucks, college coeds, etc.) that erotica does not, although erotica can be well-written and still include the required minimum chapter-level of detail. It's all in the balance and the quality.

~ JBB

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

It's all in the balance and the quality.

Unfortunately, I believe it's between behind closed doors and graphically shown.

Grey Wolf ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

'Erotica' is a different category than 'written pornography', in my opinion. 'The Story of O' is a great example. So would be some of Anne Rice's 'Anne Rampling' novels.

Heck, quite a lot of what's published as 'romance' (and 'romantasy', etc) qualifies as 'erotica', and some is very long-form.

On the other hand, there's the Greenleaf Press et al books of years gone by. Most of them qualify as 'poorly written stories', but they served their purpose as 'stroke stories' long before online publishing was a thing. They're still novel-length (at least, some are). And they certainly have much more of a plot than most modern porn.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

'Erotica' is a different category than 'written pornography', in my opinion.

That's my point. What is the difference? Are the definitions changing over time (e.g., my DH Lawrence example)? I don't even think his novels are considered erotica today, yet they were porn in the 1920s.

An author once gave her tongue-in-cheek definition of erotica vs porn. She said something like, "Erotica is better written; porn pays better."

I don't consider any of my stories/novels porn. Even the ones with "much sex." (ETA: except for my really old stories)

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