A former Brit who has been in the U.S. for half a century told me that it is legal in the U.K. for a brother to marry his sister — if the two of them can prove they can not conceive children. The proof can be certificates from physicians that both brother and sister are too old to produce children, or certificates from physicians showing that they have had operations to render them infertile.
Anybody know whether this assertion is true?
Doesn't look like it from this. Hopefully it works.:
Legality of incest in the UK
I have read that it's legal in France for brother/sister sex providing it doesn't constitute abuse. Incest itself is apparently not illegal. That came up in some research I did for Protective Coloration
Legality of incest in the UK
That says it's illegal for a woman to have sex with her grandfather, but not a man to have sex with his grandmother.
Also, uncles/aunts and first cousins aren't mentioned.
The UK incest statute
Incest by a man
(1)It is an offence for a man to have sexual intercourse with a woman whom he knows to be his grand-daughter, daughter, sister or mother.
(2)In the foregoing subsection " sister " includes half-sister, and for the purposes of that subsection any expression importing a relationship between two people shall be taken to apply notwithstanding that the relationship is not traced through lawful wedlock.
11Incest by a woman
(1)It is an offence for a woman of the age of sixteen or over to permit a man whom she knows to be her grandfather, father, brother or son to have sexual intercourse with her by her consent.
(2)In the foregoing subsection " brother" includes half-brother, and for the purposes of that subsection any expression importing a relationship between two people shall be taken to apply notwithstanding that the relationship is not traced through lawful wedlock.
In a number of countries in Europe (Spain and Portugal for example) incest is not illegal for persons above the age of consent. In France, it may or may not be illegal - it wasn't, but there was a movement to change the law.
In none of these countries is marriage with close relatives permitted.
Generally in the US, incest is illegal with ancestors, deescents and siblings. Most places aunts and uncles are included.
In NJ adult incest is legal, in RI incest above the age of consent is allowed. In Ohio, the ban on incest only applies to parents/children or people in loco parentis. Marriage to parents and siblings is illegal everywhere.
I actually researched this for a potential story.
What I recall off the top of my head:
The closest relationship where a marriage would be legal somewhere in the US would be first cousins. A few states allow unrestricted marriage for first cousins. Wisconsin allows first cousin marriage under the restrictions stated in the OP (one or both must be certifiably sterile).
A majority of US states prohibit first cousin marriage.
The closest relationship where marriage would be legal across all 50 states would be second cousins.
I can not be completely certain that the sources I found were accurate.
A majority of US states prohibit first cousin marriage.
Just doing a little searching and it's a small majority. If the participants are sterile it looks like it's almost an even split. I don't know if the results have changed much in the last, uh, almost 50 years since I first researched it for personal reasons, but even then there were plenty of states where it was legal.
Texas law is interesting (had to research it since it's relevant to my story, notwithstanding that it has no 'incest' tag :) ):
Texas Penal Code Section §25.02:
(a) A person commits an offense if the person engages in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual intercourse with another person the actor knows to be, without regard to legitimacy:
(1) the actor's ancestor or descendant by blood or adoption;
(2) the actor's current or former stepchild or stepparent;
(3) the actor's parent's brother or sister of the whole or half blood;
(4) the actor's brother or sister of the whole or half blood or by adoption;
(5) the children of the actor's brother or sister of the whole or half blood or by adoption; or
(6) the son or daughter of the actor's aunt or uncle of the whole or half blood or by adoption.
That covers a whole lot of ground.
That's not atypical. The excluded relationships (except first cousins and former stepchildren) are the same as in almost every other state. Some states go farther by excluding first cousins once removed, the children of your first cousin.
I believe (but may be wrong) that many don't include 'by adoption.'
Which was relevant to the story I'm writing, thus I'd looked it up.
Some also include stepsiblings, which Texas does not.
Saturday my 14yo granddaughter asked me what I thought of her crop top. I had to look away lest my body betray me.
Whether the potential betrayal was your eyes bugging out or your tongue hanging out there's definitely a story there.
~ JBB
Last summer she was stunning in a one piece swimsuit. Quite the behind. Then she models for me in what looked like jeans and a teddy, with her older sister standing right beside me, laughing her ass off.
"We Have a Problem" by Pappy O
In my extensive genealogy research in Pennsylvania, first cousin marriage was likely illegal but the couple simply lied in their marriage licenses. I have a copy of a marriage between my great-uncle and his sister's daughter where they said "no relation" and stated she was 18 instead of 15, whiole he was in his 40's. His first wife was her older sister, then deceased.
First cousin marriage is legal in a surprising number of states. The risk is not particularly high at that point and is practically nil beyond that, which is why second cousin and further is legal in all of the US, to the best of my knowledge.
It's important to recognise that even though most incest laws are structured with older language, the modern philosophy is less about genetics (which is rarely an issue unless there are multiple generations of inbreeding) and more about grooming and abuse.
This is a big part of why cousin marriage has never been outlawed in so many places. Genetically it's not an issue unless you're the Habsburgs and socially most cousins aren't raised together.
It has to be remembered that banned degrees of relationship are different in many states for marriage as opposed to just sexual relationships.
Actually, the dictionary definition of incest is usually a variation of "to engage in sexual relations with someone you cannot marry due to laws of consanguinity".
In other words, the rules for who you can marry and the rules for what constitutes incest will be identical in a given jurisdiction, but will vary from place to place.
There are a few exceptions to this in some European countries (eg, Spain and Italy), but for US states it's rare.
From an article ('I slept with my half-sibling': Woman's horror)
Hill purchased a DNA testing kit from 23andMe a few years ago and sent her DNA to the genomics company. What should have been a routine quest to learn more about herself turned into a shocking revelation that she had many more siblings than just the brother she grew up with – the count now stands at 22. Some of them reached out to her and dropped more bombshells: Hill's biological father was not the man she grew up with but a fertility doctor who had been helping her mother conceive using donated sperm. That doctor, Burton Caldwell, a sibling told her, had used his own sperm to inseminate her mother, allegedly without her consent.
But the most devastating revelation came this summer, when Hill found out that one of her newly discovered siblings had been her high school boyfriend – one she says she easily could have married.
"Now I'm looking at pictures of people thinking, well, if he could be my sibling, anybody could be my sibling."
It also illustrates how the huge groups of siblings made possible in part by a lack of regulation can lead to a worst-case scenario coming to pass: accidental incest.
It wasn't lack of regulation. It was criminal act. Sad to say, few, if any prosecutors are willing to prosecute the several crimes committed: theft by deception, assault, insurance fraud and others.
But the most devastating revelation came this summer, when Hill found out that one of her newly discovered siblings had been her high school boyfriend – one she says she easily could have married.
This would've been incest, but legal.
(Texas) A person commits an offense if the person engages in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual intercourse with another person the actor knows to be [...]
(UK) [...] whom he (she) knows to be [...]
But what if she had married her high school boyfriend and later had found out? Could they stay married? If yes, would continuing having intercourse be an offense?
How about a long going sexual relationship without being married? Break-up or continue?
Step-parent/step-child is illegal, but what about a son living with his divorced mother. While visiting his father as usual for two or three weeks every year, he has then sex with his father's new wife? (she is his stepmom, isn't she?)
HM.
While visiting his father as usual for two or three weeks every year, he has then sex with his father's new wife? (she is his stepmom, isn't she?)
I'm not sure of the specifics, but my first thought is that the answer is not likely to be a simple yes/no.
If the father has visitation, but not joint custody, the father's new wife might not legally be the son's stepmother.
Child custody after divorce in the US can be complicated. It can go anywhere from sole custody to one parent and no visitation for the non custodial parent to an even split joint custody where the divorced parents have to make major decisions for the child jointly, or anywhere in between.
To me, the implication of the scenario you lay out (lives with mom and only sees dad a few weeks out of the year) implies that dad has visitation rights, but mom has sole custody (that is mom gets to make all medical and legal decisions for the son and dad has no say).
It is a yes or no answer. If a person marries your parent that person is your stepparent even if you never meet them. Custody determinations do not affect parentage. If the state makes sex between steparent and stepchild illegal, not all do, it doesn't matter how often they see each other. If stepparent sex is not specifically illegal, then the crime might be judged as criminal only if the stepparent has a relationship of supervisory care over the child.
Worth noting that some states say the step-relationship only matters as long as the marriage creating that relationship exists, others are unspecified.
Also, American Samoa has an age-related exception:
his stepchild or stepparent, while the marriage creating that relationship exists and while the stepchild is 18 years of age or less
If you read wikipedia's incest page Illinois appears to also have a weird age-related step-relationship exception, but what's actually going on is that the age of consent laws specify that sex with a minor family member or household member is aggravated criminal sexual abuse; if over 18 it's incest.
specify that sex with a minor family member or household member is aggravated criminal sexual abuse
Actual sex would be aggravated criminal sexual assault.
(720 ILCS 5/11-1.20) (was 720 ILCS 5/12-13)
Sec. 11-1.20. Criminal sexual assault.
(a) A person commits criminal sexual assault if that person commits an act of sexual penetration and:
(1) uses force or threat of force;
(2) knows that the victim is unable to understand the nature of the act or is unable to give knowing consent;
(3) is a family member of the victim, and the victim is under 18 years of age; or
(4) is 17 years of age or over and holds a position of trust, authority, or supervision in relation to the victim, and the victim is at least 13 years of age but under 18 years of age.
Actual sex would be aggravated criminal sexual assault.
Sorry, you're right. Typo on my part.
Depends on your dictionary. Merriam-Webster says:
sexual intercourse between persons so closely related that they are forbidden by law to marry
In that definition, marriage is forbidden while sex may or may not be.
On the other hand, the OED starts with:
The crime of sexual intercourse or cohabitation between persons related within the degrees within which marriage is prohibited
So, in that case, 'incest' implies 'crime'.
That's a reference to the criminal penalty only. Relationships can still be incest based upon religious or moral beliefs of an individual even if there is no criminal penalty attached.
As to criminal penalties, often (usually?) the word "incest" is not used in laws prohibiting certain marriages or sexual relationships, just being a term applied by commentators because of the relationships prohibited.
There may be other definitions, but incest, like insanity, is mainly a legal term. I know it's used colloquially in broader contexts.
No. It is primarily not a legal term. It is a cultural term.
As I stated before, the term is often not even used in statutes prohibiting it whether dealing with marriage or sexual relations.
Often the term "incest" is applied to relationships between which marriage is allowed and not applied to some situations in which marriage is prohibited.
It is primarily not a legal term. It is a cultural term.
Agreed.
The English word 'incest' derives from a Middle English word principally meaning 'unchaste'. A quick google suggests incest first became illegal in the UK in 1908. However I'd be surprised if God-botherers hadn't instituted some form of anti-incest rules long before that. But, unless my education was sorely lacking, I'm pretty sure incest wasn't proscribed by the 9/10/11/12/13 Commandments.
AJ
Before the statute was enacted the crime of incest was the province of ecclesiastical courts not the law courts. That's were the crime was prosecuted and punishment meted out.
My daughter and I had the packet DNA test from Ancestories about 6 or 7 years ago and it turned up 12 cousins that I knew about all but 1 were female. The male cousin is now dead. I have 1 aunt living from my parent's generation. I have 45 cousins from the female cousins 30 of whom are female. 25 have been married. Of the female ones married, they have 40 female children and half have contacted me by snail and email. 15 of them are in the sex trades, Mostly in the southern states. They are feeding me alternate sexy stories for writing material. I am afraid to post them as true stories although they like the stories, even with changed names. They say they are completely factual.
As to incest being a legal concept:
Last night I was watching a French produced mystery series. A man and woman hook up shortly after meeting and later find out that they are brother and sister. Incest not illegal in France but they were not happy about what happened.
The woman's comment was: "I wish we had known before we decided to reenact The Game of Thrones.:
And that supports your position how? Saying incest is a legal concept does not say that inbreeding is OK or won't be found to be icky by a participant.
