Forum: Author Hangout

Absolutely great advice. I'm going with the line from his INaugural Address: ask not what your country can do for you -

I went with "Ask not..."

Yes, Camelot was a frequently used image. That being said, I tend to think of a camelot as a place one to which one goes to buy a used camel.

Sorry I came to this late. I would have suggested "A Fork in the Plaza".

Those work as chapter titles after the event. As you point out, they would be spoilers.

I haven't yet figured out how I will stop the assassination, but having that as a Point of Departure for alternate history is the motivation of this story.

Interesting statistics -- when I enabled voting, with four chapters, prologue, and glossary, I came in with a 2 and an 8. I wish people that go low would explain.

There are any number of things that I can do to interfere with the act of assassination itself. Whether or not that is the best thing for storytelling is another matter.

For example, there were numerous problems, some of which persist today, with the Secret Service. It's not their fault when Congress underfunds them so that the available agents are overworked and short on sleep. Things get more difficult when one looks at a culture of overworked agents who party hard to unwind -- which presents an opportunity for seduction in the sense of a "reverse honey trap" by loyal people.

Yet another problem was that certain assignments, such as the Presidential driver and the supervisor sitting next to him, were given on seniority. Much as I hate to admit it, reflexes slow down with age. In the real assassination, Kennedy probably could have survived the first bullet that hit him. Had the driver taken immediate evasive action, the second might have missed. There are arguments both ways about what he should have done, but I find it hard to accept that accelerating would not be wise. I recognize that he was the middle car of three.

From a political standpoint, I'd far rather prevent the assassination attempt from taking place than to interfere with the attack. Consider the demands for investigation that would take place with the latter, and how much that could distract the President.

From a political standpoint, I'd far rather prevent the assassination attempt from taking place than to interfere with the attack. Consider the demands for investigation that would take place with the latter, and how much that could distract the President.

That could be simple or complicated depending on whether or not you want to get into one of the assassination conspiracy theories or not.

If not, have the MC assassinate Oswald before Kennedy's visit to Dallas.

From a political standpoint, I'd far rather prevent the assassination attempt from taking place than to interfere with the attack. Consider the demands for investigation that would take place with the latter, and how much that could distract the President.

Have a last minute change in plans. The cause of the change should be some thing which sounds logical.

Awk! In my story, it is a given that IF JFK goes to Dallas, Oswald is a lone gunman who somehow will be stoppedd. Frankly,the details of the assassination are of relatively little interest to me for this story. What is of interest is not having LBJ reacting to the Gulf of Tonkin, and indeed JFK avoiding a huge Vietnam involvement. I haven't decided how to avoid killing JFK, but I don't want to get heavily involved with it. Getting the Secret Service better disciplined and better rested might fit with other themes.

Struggling to write on a tablet since my housemate fried my main computer last night
Reactions are interesting: as far asy votes, (1+2)=10

Any presidential travel has to have plans for alternate routes. Why not just use a different route avoiding the location of Oswald altogether.

Any presidential travel has to have plans for alternate routes. Why not just use a different route avoiding the location of Oswald altogether.

Even simpler, have Oswald miss the money shot.

I think it would be a better twist if, in the original universe, JFK had turned out to be a disastrously bad president and in the do-over the protagonist is responsible for getting Oswald to assassinate him.

I seem to recall a story from somewhere that had a time traveler changed history because in HIS original universe, both JFK and Jackie were killed. Unfortunately, that is all I remember of the story.

Since your do-over character is to stop the assassination and has the necessary information, have him in the Book Depository and rattle the door knob of the room Oswald is in as Oswald takes his first shot.

That won't work. The floor of the Book Depository that Oswald used as a shooting position was a big open floor plan warehouse space. He wasn't close to a door and he was surrounded by 5-6 foot high stacks of large boxes filled with books.

I still think the best plan for a time traveler to stop the assassination is to take Oswald out before Kennedy even arrives in Dallas.

On the other hand, if something more dramatic is desired, a deliberate time traveler would have fairly good information on where the the fatal bullet from Oswald would be at any given time and all the time in the world to calculate shooting location and trajectory to deflect the fatal shot with another bullet. :)

That doesn't make for a terribly believable story, however.

By the way DARPA has demonstrated that it's possible with existing technology to hit one bullet with another. It just takes more computing power than can be applied in real time.

Sorry, I call bullshit on the suggestion that it would take any more fairy dust than time travel itself.

It just takes more computing power than can be applied in real time.

And since they're from the future their iWatch will have all the computing power needed to do it in real time...

I find all the suggestions interesting, but what it really boils down to is What is the story about? Where is it headed? How close to reality do you want it to be? Then choose whichever plot device works best within those parameters.

Thank you, Grant. The thrust of the story is NOT, NOT, NOT, the Kennedy assassination.

First 3 paragraphs give clues:

Going into 1963, the Administration had several major thrusts: Southeast Asia in foreign policy and civil rights at home. Next year held a presidential election, so politics could not be ignored. The First Family also were relative rock stars and cultural icons. Jackie held the eyes of the fashion world.

Southeast Asia was more a reflexive anticommunism than part of a coherent strategy. It's based on Sir Robert Thompson's work in Malaya, widely agreed to be, along with the work of President Magsaysay and Edward Lansdale in the Philippines, the great Western counterinsurgency successes. The Malayan challenge, however, differed from the situation in Vietnam in that the insurgents were of a different ethnicity than the Malay majority, and could be separated more easily. In many respects, the Philippines was a more relevant model, in that its focus was recognizing grievances, correcting them, bringing legitimacy to government, and genuinely welcoming former insurgents. An important difference, however, was that the former colonial power in the Philippines, the United States, was generally admired and truly intended to make the Philippines independent. In the former Indochina, the Americans were often seen as a colonial proxy for the French.

The various South Vietnamese and American official elements seemed to have converged on a "Strategic Hamlet Program" as the long-term approach to economic growth, security, and land reform.

*** SPOILERS ****

The thrust of the story is Vietnam with Johnson not in charge. You might note that Vietnam, even in early 1963, is the thrust of the initial four chapters is SE Asia.

Thank you, Grant. The thrust of the story is NOT, NOT, NOT, the Kennedy assassination.

Then if the story is a simple alternate history rather than time travel / do-over, the simplest solution is to have Oswald miss the kill shot.

Then if the story is a simple alternate history rather than time travel / do-over, the simplest solution is to have Oswald miss the kill shot.

That may be the case. I haven't firmly decided. There are some subplots where I have characters variously run reverse honey traps* on the Secret Service to improve their capabilities -- even more lacking by some of the problems of today -- with due regard that I've known some dedicated Secret Service people.

Another reverse honey trap may involve introducing countersniper teams in the Dallas PD. The Secret Service didn't have well-developed ones at the time. I do have a possible plot in which a female character or characters go skeet shooting with LBJ. The Secret Service never liked having loaded firearms within range of a principal, but they will allow it. In general, they have an agent stay very, very close to the other shooters. One lovely character may recognize that, and encourage the agent to stay close to her ("see these two protuberances under my sweater? Did you know they're handles for good-looking agents to keep me controlled?")

*A honey trap is an espionage technique to seduce someone to fuck his country. My conceit of a reverse honey trap is the use of sex, by loyal citizens, to get various officials to do what they should be doing.

Another reverse honey trap may involve introducing countersniper teams in the Dallas PD. The Secret Service didn't have well-developed ones at the time.

I don't think any domestic law enforcement agency had a dedicated countersniper team at that time. Most still don't.

Snipers aren't a significant problem domestically. Most mass shootings are close quarters. I know of only one that involved a sniper, it was at a university and the local PD didn't have any snipers of their own.

Most police SWAT teams include at least a couple of trained snipers, but the first SWAT team was built by Philadelphia in 1964, the year after the Kennedy assassination.

There is a really good reason why the Secret Service doesn't have a dedicated counter sniper team. They don't need one.

Even just looking at presidential assassination attempts, successful or not, Oswald is the only sniper in the group. Even the Secret Service has no real use for a dedicated counter sniper team.

They have countersniper teams today, especially for events in DC such as the Inaugural or State of the Union. In general terms, they do deploy acoustic shot locators as well, which are used in some urban areas.

They have countersniper teams today

Must be a cushy boring job. They have never had anything to do.

They also have man-portable air defense missiles. As with Clancy, it wouldn't have done any good for a crashing jetliner, but I am confident the Service would die trying. There is at least one larger SLAMRAAM battery in the DC area, and smaller Avenger vehicles at the Pentagon and elsewhere.

I was near the Pentagon on 9/11. The SLAMRAAM, had it been present, might have deflected a 757, but it would have come down in mostly one piece in a populated area. One of the sad things on 9/11 was a couple of minutes after the BANG, I heard fighters overhead, at full military power--probably some survivor guilt.

Before Flight 93 was taken down, a couple of unarmed Air National Guard fighters, on training, were heading for it -- and expected to ram.

Would hearing someone moving through the stacks work as a distraction.

Maybe, it would depend quite a bit on Oswald's temperament and nerves. From what I recall reading, Oswald had moved a number of boxes, creating a bit of a fort around the window he shot from. He would have been fairly secure from discovery until someone was right on top of him.

On the other hand, he would only have to flinch a tiny bit to spoil the kill shot. I don't think the sound of foot prints would be enough to do it. But maybe a much louder noise like an air horn or a flash-bang grenade set off at just the right moment would do the trick.

On the other hand, he would only have to flinch a tiny bit to spoil the kill shot. I don't think the sound of foot prints would be enough to do it. But maybe a much louder noise like an air horn or a flash-bang grenade set off at just the right moment would do the trick.

Maybe trip the building's fire alarm at just the right moment.

Would hearing someone moving through the stacks

LOL...I once worked for the Library of Congress, got distracted, and didn't notice the guards locking up. I did notice the lights being turned out, unfortunately at the breaker so the end-of-stack switches didn't work.

It took a LONG time to crawl to where I could pound on the door.

prevent the assassination attempt from taking place

Hence my suggestion of "Fork in the Plaza" as a title.

The simple change to the route through Dallas where at the last moment the motorcade goes straight down Main Street instead of diverging thru Dealey Plaza would have prevented the assasination attempt, even though all the players were still in place.

I don't know if anyone has explained why that diversion took place originally anyway. Oswald must have known the route in detail.

I don't know if anyone has explained why that diversion took place originally anyway. Oswald must have known the route in detail.

Main street goes through the center of Dealey plaza. Even if the route hadn't been changed, Oswald would have still had line of sight for a shot at the President.

In fact, if the motorcade had stayed on Main, while it would have been a longer shot, arguably the angle from where Oswald was shooting would have been better.

In fact, if the motorcade had stayed on Main, while it would have been a longer shot, arguably the angle from where Oswald was shooting would have been better.

I think the key is that if they had stayed on Main they would not have slowed to a near stop for the sharp turn, and the speed of the vehicle combined with the distance and the side angle would have made the shot very much more difficult.

I think the key is that if they had stayed on Main they would not have slowed to a near stop for the sharp turn, and the speed of the vehicle combined with the distance and the side angle would have made the shot very much more difficult.

You are presuming that they wouldn't have slowed anyway for the crowd gathered in Dealey Plaza.

Also, the change in angle in isolation from the other factors, would have taken the governor out of the shot but would actually make the shot on Kennedy easier.

The difference in distance is not enough to make a significant difference in the difficulty of the shot.

You are correct though, that if they did not slow down, that would make the shot much more difficult.

However, staying on main would not inherently mean that they don't slow down.

Thank you, Crumbly Writer. My thrust is far more with how JFK handles Vietnam, not LBJ, and avoiding the assassination is rather a nit. I do NOT want to get into complex assassination matters, although, considering that the previous story in the universe was about Cuba, I may tie that in (e.g., Oswald was in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee).

At this point, the feedback wants me to have him trip and shoot himself in the groin.

staying on main would not inherently mean that they don't slow down

Not sure about that. The corners into N Houston and particularly into Elm forced the vehicle to slow considerably. There would have been no reason to slow at all travelling straight down Main. Also, with the vehicle travelling basically away from Oswald, the receding target made much less of a sighting arc at a much lower arc speed than it would have travelling at a tangent, which provides the largest sighting arc, at much higher arc speed.

Still have no idea why they went down Elm.

There would have been no reason to slow at all travelling straight down Main.

Yes there would have been, namely giving Kennedy time to grandstand for the crowd gathered in the plaza.

Also, with the vehicle travelling basically away from Oswald, the receding target made much less of a sighting arc at a much lower arc speed than it would have travelling at a tangent, which provides the largest sighting arc, at much higher arc speed.

Yes, but on the route they took, he had to fire at a very narrow angle to the wall of the book depository, a more awkward shooting position than had the motorcade remained on Main, where he could have shot closer to straight out the window of the book depository.

Since the latest evidence is he was accidentally killed by the guard

There is no evidence at all that Kennedy was killed by anyone other than Oswald.

The demonstration of the so called magic bullet from the trial in the movie is a lie. Kennedy and Connally were not sitting on the same level. Kennedy was sitting up on the trunk of the car so he was higher than Connally.

Placed in the proper spatial context, not only is it possible to put one bullet through all seven wounds, it's possible to put a laser through all seven wounds. No magic curving bullet necessary.

Also, the bullet recovered was is not pristine as many claim, it is flattened along it's length. The bullet is a type that is designed to tumble after penetrating the target. The flattening is likely from the bullet hitting the inside of Kennedy's rib cage sideways.

Also several groups within the last decade or so have set up and successfully replicated the shot with the same type of rifle and ammunition that Oswald had.

I suggest you take out to read McLaren's work. He did an analysis of the information and evidence already available, but he had no hidden agenda to hide anything.

Sorry, any analysis that starts with it couldn't have been Oswald has gone off the rails before it got started and isn't worth reading.

Oswald being the sole assassin is 100% possible and this has been repeatedly proven in practical tests replicating the circumstances of the assassination.

The SS Guard with the AR15

Another red flag. I am skeptical that SS agents would have even been issued AR15's during the Kennedy Dallas motorcade.

While the AR15, developed in 1959 was pitched to the government, they rejected it and the M16 developed on the AR15 platform didn't go into service until 1964, the year after Kennedy was assassinated.