Forum: Author Hangout

HALF my story votes are downvotes!

Daydreamz 🚫

It's just occurred to me recently how stable my story scores are, after the first 50 or so. They sit there for years they hardly change, just float gently up and down by .1 or .2.

So, with the average staying the same like this, and 90% of the time not an integer, half the votes are above and... half are below!! Of course being an insecure writer I notice the drops much, much more than the rises, and this is why the raw scores are kept secret from us in the first place of course.

So, does this qualify as an unintended consequence? What do you think?

Replies: REP Daydreamz awnlee jawking joyR irvmull awnlee jawking irvmull

REP 🚫

@Daydreamz

To start with, the controversy over the way the scoring system calculated a story's score is why Lazeez removed the histogram of the raw scores. Furthermore, the rating system doesn't work the way you apparently think it does.

The rating values are 1 through 10, and the average of those values is 5.5, and if I recall prior threads correctly, a story score of about 6.5 is considered average. That's right the rating system skews the scores to a value that is less than the average of the raw scores.

If your story were static (i.e. no additional votes and no one changed their score) your stories' scores would vary slightly over a period of time. The reason for this is, the scoring system takes into account the scores of other authors' stories when it updates your score.

Back when Lazeez displayed the histogram of the raw scores, I could see the distribution of my readers votes. Based on my recollection, 70%-90% of my raw scores were between 7 and 10. My story scores were between 6.0 and 8.0, but the average of the raw scores was over 8.

My suggestion to you is, don't worry about your story scores, and just take pleasure out of writing the best story you can. That is what I do.

Replies: Daydreamz

Daydreamz 🚫

@REP

Yes certainly it's best not to pay too much attention to the scores, but at the same time there they are, they influence the number of reads, and there's this slight irony to them that's worth a smile. I think the weighting is to 6, to soothe us 😁. It's some time ago now but istr Lazeez kindly but recklessly asked the writers what we wanted, and that's how it ended up with the convolution and then tears over the low votes, so he hid them.

And now a further unintended consequence, I would guess, is that a brilliant but polarising story shows the same rating as an average one.

Daydreamz 🚫

@Daydreamz

And a further unintended consequence, let me suggest, is the comments: readers are strongly encouraged to leave comments, because of course we crave them. The very votes appear to entail a comment! But then, we don't actually see the vote. So our reader thinks they've made a comment, when they haven't.

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@Daydreamz

So our reader thinks they've made a comment, when they haven't.

Ummm, what?

Have you checked to see if comments are allowed on your stories and if they are hidden or not?

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Pixy

@Daydreamz

So our reader thinks they've made a comment, when they haven't.

Ummm, what?

Have you checked to see if comments are allowed on your stories and if they are hidden or not?

I interpreted Daydreamz's comment as meaning that he thought the reader would consider the vote itself a comment on the story, but the author can't see individual votes.

Replies: Daydreamz Pixy

Daydreamz 🚫

@Dominions Son

Exactly. With a 1, for example, being tagged "You call this a story!", the reader gets the impression they've made that comment.

Pixy 🚫

@Dominions Son

Thank-you for the correct clarification! 😀

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Daydreamz

half the votes are above and... half are below!!

That would require the distribution of votes to be symmetrical. Since the fanbois usually greatly outnumber the trolls, that isn't the case.

You could legitimately claim that half are above the story's median and half are below - that's the definition of median.

AJ

Replies: Daydreamz

Daydreamz 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Yes fair point AJ. Though the emotional impact is there all the same 😱. And then, what about averaging text? Letters! Mathematically!! That is a path paved with good intentions if ever there was one.

joyR 🚫

@Daydreamz

Of course being an insecure writer I notice the drops much, much more than the rises, and this is why the raw scores are kept secret from us in the first place of course.

Since the vast majority of readers don't vote at all ANY vote is an upvote, even a 1 is greater than zero.

If you are selling your stories then it matters how many people buy them. Purchase does not indicate enjoyment. A bestseller only indicates sales, which can be a result of marketing rather that good writing.

Making your story available for free means your best indication of reader satisfaction is the number of downloads, NOT the vote score.

Note also that authors who post in less popular genres and/or themes can still attract a larger then average number of downloads for that genre/theme which should be just as satisfying as an author posting much more popular genres/themes and receiving the highest number of downloads on the site.

BOTH are equally successful regardless of any voting.

Those who buy my books put food on my table.
Those who read my free stories put joy in my soul.

Replies: Daydreamz

Daydreamz 🚫

@joyR

Nice post thank you 👍. I am semi serious tbh. Being serious for a second, one of my favourite metrics is what proportion of readers that make it all the way, to the last chapter. Tho it varies massively by length of course, and I have to mess about to get it. Meanwhile I have one with twice as many library entries as votes, what does that signify? 😯

Replies: joyR Switch Blayde

joyR 🚫
Updated:

@Daydreamz

Being serious for a second, one of my favourite metrics is what proportion of readers that make it all the way, to the last chapter.

Ok so you are comparing the number of downloads for chapters One, Twp and Three. From that you are guessing at how many readers downloaded all three chapters.

For various reasons the download count for chapter One of ANY story is artificially inflated due to auto page loading etc etc blah blah.

You are guessing because not all readers of the entire story will download each chapter. Many read offline so download the epub or other format version. Many of those readers wait until a story is complete before doing so.

ePub etc uses little memory so download any story that looks interesting and delete if it proves to be tripe.

Meanwhile I have one with twice as many library entries as votes, what does that signify?

1. Option to add any new story by selected author to library. You have some loyal readers.

2. Most readers DO NOT VOTE. (Many forum posters think that when they do, they screw it up.)

It is worth restating. Your story might inspire a reader to change their entire life. Or after reading it they are so aroused their erectile disfunction is cured and they impregnate their spouse with twins. Maybe it gives them the self confidence to talk to a woman resulting in them no longer being a 45 year old virgin. All of these are possible yet none will guarantee that the reader actually bothers to vote for the story, let alone posting a comment by way of thanks.

Replies: Daydreamz Daydreamz

Daydreamz 🚫

@joyR

Option to add any new story by selected author to library. You have some loyal readers.

Ah, that explains it! It is my most disappointing story apparently (tho I quite like it)

Daydreamz 🚫

@joyR

Your story might inspire a reader to change their entire life. Or after reading it they are so aroused their erectile disfunction is cured and they impregnate their spouse with twins.

lol, yes so true, still I like to give the votes some credit, when I know what they are. Tho quite often I don't. I mean a 7.5 drops to 7.48, is that actually someone 'Like' ing it with a "Good"? Or not liking it with a "Not Good"?

And as I came in with, the score comes down as often as it goes up. So yes to some extent we each have to make up our own minds about the value of what we've posted don't we. But naturally it's a good feeling when it goes up a bit - someone's enjoyed it - then not so good when with mathematical inevitably it comes back down again.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@Daydreamz

But naturally it's a good feeling when it goes up a bit - someone's enjoyed it - then not so good when with mathematical inevitably it comes back down again.

Guys almost always feel good when it goes up. Many use mathematics to keep it up...

In fact the christian bible advises using mathematics to prolong copulation...
"Go forth and multiply"

Replies: Michael Loucks awnlee jawking

Michael Loucks 🚫

@joyR

In fact the christian bible advises using mathematics to prolong copulation...
"Go forth and multiply"

Or you could do this: SMBC Comic

awnlee jawking 🚫

@joyR

"Go forth and multiply"

There, indisputable proof that you can't get pregnant the first three times you have sex ;-)

AJ

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

There, indisputable proof that you can't get pregnant the first three times you have sex ;-)

That only applies to u.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@joyR

That only applies to u.

I have almost certainly never spelt the ordinal number as 'forth' ;-)

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Daydreamz

one of my favourite metrics is what proportion of readers that make it all the way, to the last chapter.

What about those who jump to the last chapter to give it a bad rating without reading the entire story?

Replies: helmut_meukel Daydreamz solreader50

helmut_meukel 🚫

@Switch Blayde

What about those who jump to the last chapter to give it a bad rating without reading the entire story?

In an ongoing serial they jump to the last posted chapter.
Depending on how many chapters are already posted when such a reader jumps to voting – he may have started reading with any number of chapters already posted – any chapter may get the extra 'download for voting'.

HM.

Daydreamz 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Yes those are frustrating, if you think they've jumped just before the brilliant plot twist!! But for me it seems to be a relatively small proportion, luckily.

solreader50 🚫

@Switch Blayde

What about those who jump to the last chapter to give it a bad rating without reading the entire story?

If a story is so bad that it would gain a 1 to 4 score from me ... sorry, let me start again ...

If I find a story is so bad that it would gain a 1 to 4 score from me then it will not gain any score. I will simply abandon it. It would probably have to be an extremely short story for me to get anywhere near the final paragraph to even see the score button. There is an exception. If a story starts and is blatantly and provocatively xenophobic, I will go the the end and give it a 1.

But scoring is so subjective. I have often found myself re-reading a story and disagreeing with myself about the score I gave first time around. In both directions. Scoring depends on the mood I'm in, on whether the plot background interests me today, on whether I'm being a grumpy old man about there, their and they're.

I would say to all authors, thank you for your efforts and don't take the scoring too seriously. You may or may not be an amateur writer but we certainly are all amateur readers.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@solreader50

If I find a story is so bad that it would gain a 1 to 4 score from me then it will not gain any score.

I don't see how that helps prospective readers.

AJ

Replies: solreader50

solreader50 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

I don't see how that helps prospective readers.

It doesn't. But on the other hand would it be fair to the author if I score a story without reading all of it? But when I think about it I score for the author and not for other readers.

Replies: Switch Blayde awnlee jawking

Switch Blayde 🚫

@solreader50

would it be fair to the author if I score a story without reading all of it?

That's a question with no right or wrong answer. I never used to score a story I didn't finish, thinking it was unfair. What if it turned out great?

But then I realized I only finished stories I liked. That skewed my voting. If I didn't like it or, more importantly, it was poorly written, I didn't score it even though it deserved a low score.

Replies: Daydreamz

Daydreamz 🚫

@Switch Blayde

It's a conundrum isn't it: can the story possibly improve? There's no right answer as you say, but there is a solution for the site: don't offer a negative vote, so not voting is valid. The downvotes are why we don't get notified, why we don't get the individual scores, and basically why the whole can of worms.

If we just had Likes and Follows they can be counted: bad stories and their writers get less, and good ones get more. This is the way of every successful social media site (YT has downvotes but the poster doesn't see them they're for the reader's algorithm).

But Lazeez generously threw it open to us writers, and of course posting stories to the world is an egocentric thing to do, so it instantly became a smartness competition and LO! the most complicated system imaginable was born; then had to be tinkered with one step at a time, until... :)

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@Daydreamz

(YT has downvotes but the poster doesn't see them they're for the reader's algorithm).

My understanding is that the poster DOES see the downvotes and so do viewers. The caveat is, that only paid subscribers get to see the number of downvotes, free users just see the downvote button and that's it. Allegedly, there is a browser add-on that reinstates the downvote tally for the freeloaders, but it seemed a little dubious to me, a bit like links on Facebook that purport to show you 'Who looked at your profile if you click this link....'

Replies: Daydreamz

Daydreamz 🚫

@Pixy

Oh interesting, yes I see a bit about the browser extension. I have a paid YT account and on my videos the analysis page just shows 'Likes (vs dislikes)', not dislikes. I don't see dislikes on other people's videos. So I think YT does basically belong with TikTok, Insta, FB etc etc, who've decided downvotes are a bad thing overall, even tho on YT I see they had the advantage of quickly flagging bad content to viewers. But the admins still see them.

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫
Updated:

@Daydreamz

I'm not a paid member of YT but I watch a lot of YT content. When I watch some channels (especially the ones currently hammering current Hollywood film content) they often bring up screenshots of what they see when looking at YT. The likes of movie reviewers YellowFlash, TheQuartering, Ryan Kinel etc etc, show screenshots of Disney YT pages, and the like and dislike counters are clearly shown along with the current tally for each.

Maybe you have to reach a certain threshold of followers or something for the function to be unlocked? Or maybe there are different tiers of 'paid' membership with corresponding levels of access? I don't know. 🤷

awnlee jawking 🚫

@solreader50

when I think about it I score for the author and not for other readers.

In that case, shouldn't story scores be hidden from readers until they've at least tried the story?

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

shouldn't story scores be hidden from readers until they've at least tried the story?

No, the scores are for the readers. To help them decide what to read.

The system works as intended.

Replies: Daydreamz awnlee jawking solreader50

Daydreamz 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Well we can't really say it was intended to score a good but polarising story the same as an average one can we? The intended version caused too many tears and it's been tinkered with ever since, till now it's arithmetically averaging a to j. It's an absolute classic of good intentions.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

No, the scores are for the readers.

@solreader50 scores for the author and not for other readers.

The system works as intended.

Only weakly, IMO.

How can someone post a single chapter of a long serial and immediately get a score of over 9? There are too many reader biases, plus ways for authors to game the system too.

AJ

solreader50 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The system works as intended.

They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I can see what the intention was and I could agree it is a good thing. But nevertheless I use scoring as a primitive, crude and non-nuanced feedback to the author. So sue me. ;-)

Replies: StarFleet Carl

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@solreader50

They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

That's why there's a 'Stairway to Heaven' but a 'Highway to Hell!'

irvmull 🚫

@Daydreamz

As JoyR says, many (most?) readers don't vote.
It's too easy to just click on some other story.

You might say a 1 vote is like saying "It's a pile of crap, but the most impressive pile I've seen lately."

Replies: Daydreamz

Daydreamz 🚫

@irvmull

It's an 'a' vote now. Lazeez trying to soften the negative for us, part of how this site has such a sweet feel to it. But negative is negative, you have to accept it, that the reader didn't enjoy the story. Personally I'd just try and make them say why, so I could possibly fix it, or at least understand it's perhaps about a decision I made rather than bad storytelling.

But my original point is more that, one step at a time and with good intentions, the system has ended up with unintended consequences.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Daydreamz

Are those downvotes because the author uses 'lay down' instead of 'lie down'? ;-)

AJ

Replies: Daydreamz

Daydreamz 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Oh is that a thing? Lol, the language that divides us :) I've had a comment telling me he was giving a 1 vote for my mean treatment of the bad guy, one when I wrote Mauritius instead of Madagascar... But if they only had comments as a way to express disappointment, we might find out more often, perhaps.

irvmull 🚫

@Daydreamz

Sometimes I give a 1 score in order to encourage the author to try plumbing as a more productive way to spend his time.

Replies: Daydreamz

Daydreamz 🚫

@irvmull

Lol fair enough 🤣. But if you only had a Like and a Comment available, would you explain this to him?

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Forum: Author Hangout

HALF my story votes are downvotes!

WARNING! ADULT CONTENT...