I have a nit picking point. I am editing a story for a writer. He uses Mr and it shows up as an error in my word processor.
My processor is set for American English, is the lack of a period English English?
I don't want to correct something that is actually correct for his native language.
All help greatly appreciated
I'm not a writer, not even native English, but from what I learned "Mr." is US spelling and "Mr" UK spelling.
is the lack of a period English English?
Yes, British English does not have the period (American English does).
Yes, British English does not have the period
It used to - I remember it being taught in English lessons - but I guess it died a death because most people didn't bother.
AJ
It did, with pen to paper. The rule got changed by typists because of the hard-drilled "two spaces after a full-stop" thing for kerning in good-ol' fixed-width typewriter fonts, and we retroactively justify that by borrowing the French convention of not having the full-stop when it begins and ends with the same character as the unabbreviated (Mr, Ms, Dr, Fr, Sr; also the gender-neutral Mx which doesn't have an unabbreviated form) but require it otherwise (Prof., Cpt.). Since we now rarely actually write with paper and pen, the convention is here to stay even though we are mostly(?) using variable-width fonts.
Actually something similar is happening to American English too. In the "old" days you see "C.E.O." or "F.B.I." instead of "CEO" or "FBI" et cetera but the past 30 years has seen a clear shift towards not bothering the period in initialisms or acronyms. I suppose typesetters universally hated the period/full-stop. The only exception appears to be "U.S." which always carry the period.
The only exception appears to be "U.S." which always carry the period.
So that wall on the US/Mexico border is really a giant Tampax..??
I mean, for example, usa.gov style guide spelling rules:
U.S.; not US
maybe that carries a specific legal meaning?
maybe that carries a specific legal meaning?
Or maybe some random bureaucrat tasked with writing the style guide flipped a coin and the difference has no real meaning legal or otherwise.
also the gender-neutral Mx which doesn't have an unabbreviated form
A little 'x' is commonly used in conjunction with a footballer's surname to indicate a miss in a penalty shootout. So I think it's quite reasonable to pronounce it 'misshit' ;-)
AJ
The only exception appears to be "U.S." which always carry the period.
But, see Keet above
is US spelling
Ian
In my Style Manual for Authors, Editors and Printers' Fourth Edition 1988 by the Australian Government Publishing Service there is quite a long section on abbreviations, one subsection is
7.5 Abbreviations that consist of more than one capital letter or of capital letters only are written without full stops.
USA
(of course, a full stop is what Brits and Aussies, among others, call periods).
Ian
Thank you, I will not change it as I suspect the author is from Great Britain, and I did not ask first.
Thank you, I will not change it as I suspect the author is from Great Britain, and I did not ask first.
Methinks that's a serious oversight, as there are a LOT of spelling differences between the two versions of English, especially when you get into the less commonly used words.
as there are a LOT of spelling differences between the two versions of English
When I had my story site (Master Bater's Erotic Library) I thought I'd be different from the other sites and edit submitted stories. I'm a good editor and thought by doling that I'd offer a higher quality product (only typos, not grammar or anything else, although maybe punctuation too, I don't remember).
That's when I learned there were major differences between AmE and BrE. I always knew about the z and s and o and ou and er and re, but I would change "tyre" to "tire" thinking it was a typo. Funny, no one ever complained.
That's when I learned there were major differences between AmE and BrE. I always knew about the z and s and o and ou and er and re, but I would change "tyre" to "tire" thinking it was a typo. Funny, no one ever complained.
For me, I was always aware of the typical word differences, and when you're unsure, there's always Google to help. But, I belatedly learned, already well into my writing career, that I'd somehow picked up an entire slew of British spellings for the longer, less regularly used words which I'm still struggling to overcome.
I assume I picked those up when reading many of the English (and Russian) classics in high school, and was never corrected in ANY high school or college class (probably since I NEVER studied literature).
Amusing! I have at least as many differences between Ame and Bre in the variations between SW U.S. and SE U.S., NW U.S., and NE U.S. as between central U.S. and the rest of the dialects. My son agrees with me on this. He is the one in the family that graduated with the English lit degree.
He is the one in the family that graduated with the English lit degree.
So, he is correctly able to parse the main sentence he uses at the only job he could get, "Would you like fries with that?"
So, he is correctly able to parse the main sentence he uses at the only job he could get, "Would you like fries with that?"
Now, now, If he was really lucky, he might be able to get a job as an English Literature professor at a college/university. Of course it would be longer hours and the pay would be only marginally better than the "Would you like fries with that?" job.
So, he is correctly able to parse the main sentence he uses at the only job he could get, "Would you like fries with that?"
Perhaps he minored in art and is now a sign writer...?
as between central U.S. and the rest of the dialects.
That raises the question: What does it take to make a dialect? I've been told that in China the several million million dialects once used completely different languages, and a single written language came later in an attempt to unify. In the U.S., they all more or less have a basis in English, with a variety of influences.
used completely different languages, and a single written language came later in an attempt to unify
On my last trip to Italy, I learned that each city at one time spoke their own form of Italian. So someone in Venice didn't understand someone in Milan. It wasn't until Dante wrote "Inferno" that they all adopted the language he used in the book.
I wish I had thought to ask at the time, but one is written language and one is spoken language.
This stuff would fill the life's work for a dozen linguists.
We aren't going to figure it out here.
What does it take to make a dialect?
The saying goes: a language is a dialect with an army.
Meaning, after all else, it's mostly political distinctions administratively set up by someone at some point. Languages often are or were nation or nationality defining and government or other intuition supported, dialects most likely had not been, or only may get special status as regional or otherwise minority or minority/majority protections.
Then, there's also some nebulous standards of mean differences, but it wildly varies by researcher and otherwise.
Thus, for example, Lettigalian is considered dialect of Latvian although may be more different than spread between quite same Slavic languages with statehood, and its not at all unique at that.
Digression alert!
Several woke UK organisations are now permitting staff to put their preferred pronouns on their name badges. That seems really stupid to me - surely it should be their preferred titles. I can see a title being useful in a customer consultation, but not a pronoun.
AJ
MRE is meals ready to eat. If pronounced Mister E it defines the question, who would eat them willingly? It's a mystery.
MRE is meals ready to eat.
MRE = Meals Ready to Eat. Three lies for the price of one!
Just one other random tidbit many acronyms don't include periods when they're meant to be said as a word or a contraction of a series of words.
As a skip the most obvious is QANTAS (Queensland and Northern Territory Air Service) which is also to my knowled the only airline to of never had a crash fatality for it's size, i.e. international. ASIO (ASeaI-O)and other government agencies. that 'normally' do not tend to put in the periods do this too. but other things here do include the periods such as within the Goverment/Military bureaucracy the D.S.D. Defense Signals Directorate. Which is intelligence, I can just never remember which side of the Gov/Military it sits on.
Just one other random tidbit many acronyms don't include periods when they're meant to be said as a word or a contraction of a series of words.
https://www.rd.com/article/acronym-vs-abbreviation-whats-the-difference/
Technically, if it's not meant to be said as a word it's just an initialism, not an acronym.
Goverment/Military bureaucracy the D.S.D. Defense Signals Directorate. Which is intelligence, I can just never remember which side of the Gov/Military it sits on.
DSD is now the ASD - Australian Signals Directorate - and is part of the Department of Defence reporting directly to the Secretary of the Department of Defence and the Minister for Defence. On the operational side it's mostly run as an Australian Army unit with members from the RAN, RAAF, and civilians employed in it as well. Thus it's technically a civilian government organisation operated by mainly military personnel.
I'm not responding to what is correct or not, but just with a suggestion.
Most word processor programs can accept additional words into their dictionary. If you put Mr into it, it will quit showing up as an error.
Mr.
Mrs.
Ms.
Miss.
ALL are correct.
Even "Master" is appropriate, unless the lad's last name is Bates.
the lad's last name is Bates.
In the early 1960s I knew a Cadet Captain Bader, in ROTC. He objected vigorously when people called him "Master" Bader.
Even "Master" is appropriate, unless the lad's last name is Bates.
But one must be careful when using the original term that "Mrs" was short for, and that was actually "Mistress". And ironically, both Mrs and Miss come from the same word.
Prior to the 17th century, it was appropriate to use the same word and abbreviation for an adult woman that was married or a spinster. But at some time during the 17th century "Miss" broke away as a form of address for an unmarried woman, and the verbal word came from that at the same time that "Missus" deviated from "Mistress".
And interestingly enough, "Ms" dates to the 17th century also. But rather quickly vanished, only to reappear about 2 centuries later. Originally it was to denote an adult woman if her marital status was unknown, but quickly fell out of favor as it was at that time considered to be an insult to imply that a respectable woman was in fact not married.
In a more common vernacular, it was seen that addressing a woman as "Ms" was that she was in fact a prostitute.
is the lack of a period English English?
No, I believe it means she's knocked-up pregnant.
Also, I use Mister and Missus in my dialogues, to avoid confusion.
Also, I use Mister and Missus in my dialogues, to avoid confusion.
What do you use for Ms?
What do you use for Ms?
Rather amusingly, the chapter I'm currently writing is the first time that's come up in dialogue.
"That's Mizz, not Miss!" she vehemently responded.
Fucking Berkeley in 1985 ...
In many places in the South, "Miz" is used with a first name of a woman to indicate the woman has earned some respect in the community. "Miz Joey" was what a woman I knew of was called. I believe her last name, married, may have been Miller (birth name was Galt), but nobody called her by surname. It was not the feminist Ms, which I think sounds the same. Miz I believe has been around far longer than Ms.
It was not the feminist Ms, which I think sounds the same. Miz I believe has been around far longer than Ms.
It was actually 'Miss', as in 'Driving Miss Daisy' down here in the south. However, in actually speaking, it was often slurred to Mizz, due to the thick accent. I've been at the facility where my wife works, and I've heard the staff say 'Miss Shelley' to her, or call some of the residents 'Miss Rose' or 'Miss Martha'.
I believe Plains, Georgia, is in the South. That's where lived "Miz Lillian," President Jimmy Carter's mother. She was not MISS nor was she fictional.
She was not MISS nor was she fictional.
No, she was Miss Lillian. Again, it's when it's slurred in speech due to accents that it comes out SOUNDING like Mizz. Listen to the way Morgan Freeman talks in the movie - as he 'ages', he'll say 'Mizz Daisy'.
It's simply an accent, and the attempt to write what you're hearing, as opposed to the feminist appropriation of turning Ms. (which meant manuscript when I was learning abbreviations) into Mizz.
Miz (not Miss). Quoting from oxfordreference.com - "Miz Lillian - The nickname of the much respected Lillian Carter (1898-1983), wife of a Georgia peanut warehouser and mother of Jimmy."
Not a source that carries a great deal of weight for me. If it were the newspaper from Plains in the early 70's, I'd be more inclined. The very common southern pronunciation of "Miss" as "Miz" make the idea that it was a actual distinction somewhat suspect.
I have some vague recollections of folks in my childhood switching from a more distinct "Miss" to "Miz" when shifting from a young, unmarried woman to an older one, whether previously married. But, I can't claim that I was particularly observant in my teens when I might have formed those vague observations.
"Miss Lillian and Friends: The Plains, Georgia, Family Philosophy and Recipe Book, As Told to Beth Tartan and Rudy Hayes"
Bessie Lillian "Miss Lillian" Gordy Carter
Lillian Carter was well known as "Miss Lillian" and she published two books during his presidency: Miss Lillian and Friends and Away from Home: Letters to my Family, both published in 1977. The latter book was a collection of letters to her family sent when she was in India for the Peace Corps.
So - you've got both a recipe book and a book SHE wrote herself, PLUS Find-A-Grave, WITH LINKS (which you don't provide) that back up that she was MISS Lillian, and only slurring fools called her MIZ Lillian.
Now - just exactly WHICH southern state do YOU live in, Bob?
Now - just exactly WHICH southern state do YOU live in, Bob?
From his name, I would have guessed the Washington DC area, or at least somewhere on/near the Potomac river, which would put him in either Virginia or Maryland.
Washington DC area
That's pretty much what I figure, considering the swamp of fecal matter he keeps trying to make around here.
