Monday, May 21, 2018 around midnight EDT, the site will go offline for some scheduled routine maintenance. Sorry for the inconvenience. [ X Dismiss ]
Home « Forum « Bug Report and Feature Requests

Forum: Bug Report and Feature Requests

Clitorides Categories

EzzyB

I'm voting for the Clitorides and I've found some odd stories in places.

Two in particular that I do believe deserve recognition, but are in some weird categories.

An Ordinary Adult Sex Life is nominated for "Best Erotic Fantasy Story". I think the intent of "Fantasy" is Knights and Wizards and Elves and Orcs. If not practically every story posted kind of qualifies as an "Erotic Fantasy". The story certainly deserves recognition, just in a different category, (it is also nominated in an appropriate category).

Another I noted was My Journey Book 2: Exile is nominated as a Sci-Fi story. Full disclosure here, I started reading book 1, but haven't finished it, but it sure doesn't seem like a sci-fi story at all and is not coded as such.

Perhaps next year you could provide more guidelines in the nomination phase to kind of sort these things out.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@EzzyB

Perhaps next year you could provide more guidelines in the nomination phase to kind of sort these things out.

I believe the nominations are the choice of the person making them, not the administrators or authors. If the Clitorides administrators (assuming Lazeez doesn't keep managing it forever) changed it, the original poster might become upset that he nomination was "deleted".

Still, each story deserves to be in recognized category where it'll get the recognition it deserves. Maybe we need a warning on the submission "category selection subject to modification by the site's administrators"?

Replies:   EzzyB
EzzyB

@Crumbly Writer

I certainly didn't feel that anything this year should be changed.

Just a better description of the categories going forward. So, next year, when someone nominates a story they see a description of just what type of stories should be nominated in each category.

Currently there is nothing but the category title. So sure, it entirely possible that someone can make an honest mistake thinking their nominee belongs in a category.

I'd just like to see "Fantasy" have elves, "Westerns" have cowboys, "Sic-Fi" have aliens, etc. At least provide some written guidelines, there will always be many stories that cross genres, but it could be a little more accurate than it was this year.

Replies:   REP  ustourist  Crumbly Writer
REP

@EzzyB

entirely possible that someone can make an honest mistake thinking their nominee belongs in a category.


I think that the category selected by the person making the nomination is a judgment call based on the person's opinion of the story. Some stories could be nominated in multiple categories depending on the reader's view of the story.

I normally don't participate in the Clitorides, but this year I nominated a couple of very good stories. In one case, the story fit several categories, so I nominated it in all categories that seemed appropriate. In a second case, I thought the story was outstanding and merited a nomination, but the story didn't seem to fit into any category. I ended up selecting a category that was close to how I viewed the story.

Category selection is really about the reader's view of the story. Most category titles are self-explanatory. I doubt a category definition would have been beneficial to me in selecting the proper categories. Furthermore a description would be one more thing for us to disagree on. For example: you said a Sci-Fi story should have aliens in it. I've read a number of stories where the Author defined the story as Sci-Fi and there were no aliens in the story. Mis-categorizing a story is no big deal in my opinion, so I don't feel we should waste our time writing all-inclusive definitions of what should go in each category.

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
Capt. Zapp

@REP

Some stories could be nominated in multiple categories depending on the reader's view of the story.


Category nominations could be compared to the author's selected tags. If story is nominated for a category but none of the tags fit into that category, a note could pop up advising the mismatch.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Capt. Zapp

a note could pop up


Probably too much of Lazeez's time/effort for little gain.

ustourist

@EzzyB

There is another problem that has arisen within the last few years, but I admit I don't know how it could have been avoided. I also don't know if it has arisen more than once.
I will not identify the story or author because they may well not have been aware of the issue until after the voting. Yes, the administrators were made aware when the results for that year were issued.

A story published on SOL in 2009 was resubmitted in a much later year and subsequently nominated, and placed in the top three.
Readers voting may never have been aware of the earlier version (I have no idea when it was removed), the author may not have known it was nominated, and those running the awards can't be expected to check the background of every story.
In a case like that readers do need to be able to alert the administrators of a potential problem, just as they need to be able to do so if a story doesn't really fit into a category for which it is nominated.

On the topic of what a category should include, I can't agree about sci-fi necessarily requiring aliens. Verne and Wells are both science fiction, but the presence or absence of non-humans doesn't change the fact they are good and respected sci-fi. Several of the space adventure romances on SOL don't have, or need, aliens in their storyline either, but probably fit straight into that category and that alone. Sci-fi may mean many things to many different people, and a close definition would probably cause more discussion and disagreement than a marginal nomination.

sejintenej

@ustourist

On the topic of what a category should include, I can't agree about sci-fi necessarily requiring aliens. Verne and Wells are both science fiction, but the presence or absence of non-humans doesn't change the fact they are good and respected sci-fi. Several of the space adventure romances on SOL don't have, or need, aliens in their storyline either, but probably fit straight into that category

Makes sense to me. Even without the two alien spaceships surely Arlene and Jeff includes a lot of sci-fi.

Replies:   REP
sunkuwan

The "Ordinary Sex Life" Universe has no STD's, so that's probably the Fantasy element ;)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@EzzyB

I'd just like to see "Fantasy" have elves, "Westerns" have cowboys, "Sic-Fi" have aliens, etc. At least provide some written guidelines, there will always be many stories that cross genres, but it could be a little more accurate than it was this year.

Out of my 15 published sci-fi stories, only three have any aliens in them. Likewise, Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean "Dungeons and Dragons", just that it contains 'fantasy elements'.

Crumbly Writer

@ustourist

Sci-fi may mean many things to many different people, and a close definition would probably cause more discussion and disagreement than a marginal nomination.

All "Science fiction" requires is a story either based on science, or one taking place in a 'future' society where the science is different than what it is now.

I write 'hard science fiction', which means the stories are based on established principals in science which produce known conundrums when considering real-world issues. One featured telepathy (6 books), one featured an apocalyptic plague (3 books) and one, currently posting, features zombies (in a scientifically plausible scenario, rather than the typical horror motif).

Crumbly Writer

@sunkuwan

The "Ordinary Sex Life" Universe has no STD's, so that's probably the Fantasy element ;)

And many stories are written by people who picture themselves as authors, that's definitely a grand fantasy! 'D

Replies:   joyR
REP

@sejintenej

surely Arlene and Jeff


Considering all the things A&J addressed over the years, when RoustWriter finally ends it (supposedly this year) it might end up being nominated in the majority of the categories.

REP

I personally don't think adding a description to each category will achieve the goal of preventing a story from being nominated in an inappropriate category.

Readers nominate stories based on their perception of a story. To that reader the nomination was submitted to the proper category. Adding a description won't solve this problem if the person making the nomination believes the story fits the category and its description.

Someone suggested the nominations be reviewed and moved to a "more appropriate" category. I think most readers would be upset if one of their nominations were to be moved to a different category. If the nomination isn't appropriate for the category, the appropriate stories will probably receive a much larger number of votes, so why worry about it.

Replies:   ezrick
joyR

@Crumbly Writer

And many stories are written by people who picture themselves as authors, that's definitely a grand fantasy!


And what noun would you rather they used..?

Congratulations on offering such wonderful encouragement to both new and potential contributors to this site. Well done..!!

AmigaClone

There actually is a brief description of each categories, although it can only be accessed via a link on the "Nominate Stories" page.

https://clitoridesawards.org/docs/category_definition.php?ref=/nominate.php

Having said that, I will mention that last year I noticed some stories that were originally nominated as both Long Erotic Story of the Year and Epic Erotic Story of the Year, and one that got nominated as Medium Erotic Story of the Year and Epic Erotic Story of the Year.

Some categories like the ones relating to length, new author, classic Clitoris and Lifetime Achievement are real easy to tell if a story or author qualifies. In some cases a nomination might be made but later after more consideration rejected.

Replies:   REP
REP

@AmigaClone

nominated as both Long Erotic Story of the Year and Epic Erotic Story of the Year, and one that got nominated as Medium Erotic Story of the Year and Epic Erotic Story of the Year.


Sounds like the person making the nomination wasn't familiar with the critera and made a best guess.

I've never noticed the link to the descriptions. It doesn't stand out. I'll post a suggestion to that effect to Lazeez.

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone

@REP

One thing I would also mention is if you would notice a questionable nomination to drop Lazeez a note to that effect.

Replies:   REP
REP
Updated:

@AmigaClone


if you would notice a questionable nomination


The point is that I am not in a position to determine if the reader's reason for nominating a story in a specific category is or isn't questionable. They may have had a valid reason to nominate the story in that category. So for Lazeez to delete their nomination or move the nomination to a different category would be inappropriate.

If the nomination is inappropriate, then the other nominations will overwhelm the single questionable nomination. If the story places in the category, then my judgment of the story being questionable would be incorrect. If the nomination is the only one in the category and wins, so what. Story contests like the Clitorides are nice, but they aren't life or death.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@REP

They may have had a valid reason to nominate the story in that category. So for Lazeez to delete their nomination or move the nomination to a different category would be inappropriate.


In general, if the nomination isn't valid, we reject the nomination. The only time we change the nomination is when it relates to size. Many people nominate stories over 500KB for long story of the year award. When that happens we simply switch it to epic.

Any other invalidities causes simple rejection.

ezrick

@REP

I personally don't think adding a description to each category will achieve the goal of preventing a story from being nominated in an inappropriate category.


Probably not in all cases, but it certainly can't hurt.

Like I said, surely 90% of SOL stories are "Erotic Fantasy" if you take that to mean any fantasizing about sex. In that case it's a grossly redundant category, pretty much everything fits and we already have "Story of the Year" in ten other flavors depending on size etc.

If you mean it in a sci-fi/fantasy sort of way you could at least make it clear that is what it's for to the nominators.

That's all I was asking for. Don't make the judgement for them, but help them make that call with a bit of guidance.

Replies:   REP
REP

@ezrick

but help them make that call with a bit of guidance.


I agree a bit of guidance is a very good thing if the guidance is read and understood.

For example: These are the some of the same readers who complain to the Author about a story's content. The Author provided story codes indicating the story contained the type of content that the reader is complaining about. But they ignored or failed to understand the codes. If they didn't know a code, they would have had to go to a separate code description document to look up codes they didn't know.

You can only do so much when it comes to guiding someone in this type of situation. The reader will either fail to read your guidance or fail to comprehend the guidance provided. This is especially true of a reader who ignores descriptions and uses their own personal opinion of what should go into a specific category.

meangene
Updated:

They must have done something to refine the system. When it concluded I was the first to nominate "Spirit Quest" by Fantasy Writer. I nominated it in both the Science Fiction (time travel) and Fantasy (medieval setting). The Science Fiction nomination was accepted while the Fantasy nomination was rejected with the comment: "Science Fiction is not Fantasy". I have no clue what this decision was based on. I would be a help if, as a long time reader and participant, in the Clitorides I knew what the rules were and if they have changed.There are many stories that fit into more than one category: for instance Ernest Bywater's "Stand in Time" could be be considered either Western or Science Fiction. Which is correct and what is the rule that makes it correct?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Grant  REP
Ernest Bywater

@meangene

the Fantasy nomination was rejected with the comment: "Science Fiction is not Fantasy".


Fantasy is usually 'Sword and Sorcery' or 'Dungeons and Dragons' type stuff, neither of which apply to Spirit Quest.

Grant

@meangene

and Fantasy (medieval setting).

If it were just a story with a medieval setting that would make it Historical.
If there were Elves, Dwarves & Orcs & the like, then you're talking Fantasy.

meangene

Sorry guys look at the history of the award:
In 2015 Wolves and Dragons of the Blood: True Beginnings won both categories. I agree that fantasy stories should contain elements of Fantasy IE: magic, fantasy creatures,or mythological settings. My point was that at some time the RULES changed. There is also no "Historical" category in the awards. I realize this is a VERY small part of the stories,at least on the site, and the category is probably not needed. My point was that there could at times be a story that crosses two or more genres. Should not the voters decide.

REP
Updated:

@meangene


Which is correct and what is the rule that makes it correct?


Ah ... a real-life instance illustrating the point I made earlier, namely:

........

The Author writes a story that may have elements of multiple genre. When they post the story, the Author has the option of defining the story's genre, but can select only one genre.

The reader evaluates the story and decides it is an outstanding story that fits multiple genre, and nominates the story in all of the genre the Reader believes are appropriate.

Then a Moderator steps in and decides the story should not have been nominated in the genre that the Reader felt was appropriate and the Moderator makes a unilateral decision to modify the submission parameters of the nomination base on their personal opinion of what is correct.


.......

In the case of your "Spirit Quest" nomination, the nomination was rejected based on the Moderator's view of the story's proper genre with an explanation.

Which is correct and what is the rule that makes it correct?


I am not aware of any published rule or other statement regarding this issue. The website information describes the nomination process, but I am not aware of anything identifying the existence of a nomination review process or how it works.

Although, I do see changing a nomination that clearly fails to comply with a category's defined criteria; such as, nominations in the Story of the Year categories, which have a clearly defined Story Size criteria. That is a Moderator action based on fact. However, when it comes to taking action based on a Reader's Opinion versus a Moderator's opinion, the appropriateness of the Moderator's action becomes questionable.

Replies:   meangene  meangene
richardshagrin

Rule One: The Moderator is always right.

Rule Two: Should the Moderator appear wrong, see Rule One.

meangene

@REP

I have NO problem with a Moderator deciding that a story is in an inappropriate category. I have been reading Science Fiction and Fantasy for over 50 years and can name MANY stories that cross the genre line. If the rejection had said "the Moderator has ruled story is not Fantasy". I would not have had ANY problem with the decision. Look at last years winners: Where are the orcs or dwarves in Bluedragon's "An ordinary Adult Sex Life", winner of the Fantasy category. Then there is Dual Writers "Money" (one of my favorite authors and I voted for the story because it was the category it was in) it's only connection to scfi was a psychic ability and a minor (at least to me) plot element. I am NOT COMPLAINING THAT MY NOMINATION GOT REJECTED. I would, however, like the rules more clearly defined so that I do not waste the Moderators time in the future.

meangene

@REP

As to the second part of you statement. That is my major complaint :"I am not aware of any published rule or other statement regarding this issue. The website information describes the nomination process, but I am not aware of anything identifying the existence of a nomination review process or how it works". How can I properly nominate or vote on a story if I do not know what the rules are? This is to me a peoples choice type award. Should not the people decide or should some unknown Moderator decide. I do not consider "Science Fiction is not Fantasy" a reason. I would accept "we do not consider this a Fantasy story" as an an acceptable reason (I may not like it BUT I would accept it).

Ernest Bywater

I wish to make two points here:

1. No one is paying the moderators anything to do this work. The work and cost of the site is all out of their pocket, so leave them alone.

2. The Clitorides Awards were in hiatus for many years because no on was prepared to take on this type of arguing and BS again. Keep up bitching and you may get nothing to bitch about.

Replies:   meangene
Ernest Bywater

I've been a SciFi fan and reader for over 50 years, and there's no way in the world I'd class Spirit Quest as Fantasy - SciFi with time travel, yes, but that's it.

meangene

@Ernest Bywater

MR. Bywater:
First let me say that you are one of my favorite authors. I have even purchased a couple of your stories when I could not wait for them to finish posting.
Second: I am a PAYING member of SOL, so i have the RIGHT to bitch or moan if I want.
Third: since YOU have chosen to make this personal I will make this simple; this is my last post on this forum and my last Paying membership to the site.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@meangene


First let me say that you are one of my favorite authors. I have even purchased a couple of your stories when I could not wait for them to finish posting.

Second: I am a PAYING member of SOL, so i have the RIGHT to bitch or moan if I want.

Third: since YOU have chosen to make this personal I will make this simple; this is my last post on this forum and my last Paying membership to the site.


In response to your points:

1. I'm glad you like the stories, and happy you even bought some. Thank you.

2. The Clitorides Awards are not part of SoL, they're totally independent to SoL and the WLPC sites. That's why you can nominate stories from other sites. The only reason they're accessible via SoL is because Lazeez offered up his time to manage them after they had been in hiatus for a few years. He also offered up the cost of hosting them out of his own pocket, to reduce that cost he hosts them on his existing servers.

3.a. My post was not meant as a personal attack on any one person or post as such. If it was I would have quoted from a post by that person or the specific post to pinpoint the attack. I made a general post to the thread itself.

3.b. My earlier comment 2 was based on the past experience when the originators of the CAs were no longer able to manage them others took over, and then dropped managing them after they got fed up with people bitching about them. I was concerned that would happen again, because that would mean the loss of one of the few things to encourage amateur writers in this field.

3.c. If you perceive my comments as being a personal attack at you and you feel you need to respond against me, that's no reason for why you should attack or penalise SoL. I have no involvement in the management or ownership of the site in any way, other than that of any other reader and author. Thus there is no justification to punish SoL for you perceived issue with me.

I know you'll go and do whatever it is you wish to do, but I ask you should reconsider your planned actions against SoL for something that isn't their fault in order to be fair to them.

typo edit

Back to Top