Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

Average for...

What you've read on SOL - And, for you, that might be average for SOL. At least, I'm pretty sure you are WAY ahead of me.

Or, since you are grading on the curve, is 10 on SOL in the same ballpark as the best you've ever read?

(In all honesty, I'm not sure I can answer those questions myself. There's part of me that wants to score on the totality of what I've ever read, so SOL authors are competing against Heinlein, McCaffrey, and Bujold. Part wants to just compare to SOL. Like in so many other things, I'm likely inconsistent!)

How do readers discern the stories you started, but were so bad that you didn't finish, in order for the scores you do award to be meaningful?

I usually don't vote for stories I didn't finish. I read off-line, the downloaded version, so I have to make an effort to go back to the story on SOL to vote. I try to do that for every story I finish. Perhaps I should try a little harder to also vote for story I stopped reading. There's no way for readers to determine if anyone finished reading a story before voting, i.e. the 'blind' 1-bombs and default 10 votes for specific authors. I don't play that game.

First, I go in knowing I'm not reading a traditionally published book. Therefore, my expectations of what's great is much less than if I were reading a traditionally published book or at least one I paid for. A much lower bar.

I read some gems here on SOL that were way better than some of the traditionally published books. What I do keep in the back of my head is that stories here don't have expensive editors who went over it. The downside is a much bigger chance of typos and inconsistencies, the upside is that they are not pushed through the same mold that seems to be mandatory for traditionally published books. That last one makes reading on SOL much more fun.

the upside is that they are not pushed through the same mold that seems to be mandatory for traditionally published books. That last one makes reading on SOL much more fun.

Yup, yup. Exactly right!

You're not alone. I use the descriptions too. I typically don't bother to read stories with scores lower than about 6.5 unless they are by an author I know and like, and really I try to keep above 7.0 (so "good" or better).

Most stories I read here are "good." Some are "not bad" and even more rarely I'll rate something "some good, some bad" if I can see the potential that was unrealized or if the author veered off into a weird direction. On the other side, I've been more free with my "very goods" of late. It's pretty rare for me to score a story Great, and I've only rated maybe one or two stories as 10 Most Amazing Story in the 3-4 years I've been here.

In fact, now I'm curious. Is there a report I can run to see every story I've ever rated and the score I gave them?

In fact, now I'm curious. Is there a report I can run to see every story I've ever rated and the score I gave them?

You can look at at your history in your Library. You can't create a report from it bit you can see what you read and how you voted.

What I can't stand is the attitude: "It's good enough. I don't have to spend time on it to make it the best I can."

A fair statement.

However, there are a few caveats that ought to go with that.

1. There is a point of diminishing returns where spending more time on it isn't going to make it better.

2. That point isn't necessarily the same for every author.

3. Most of the authors on SOL have other things going on in their lives besides writing, and I don't just mean a paying day job.

4. Beyond spelling and basic grammar, there isn't an objective, universally accepted standard for what constitutes better.

In other words, 'To Kill a Mockingbird' and 'Huck Finn' are considered racist today. Not when they were written.

In point of fact, for it's time, 'Huck Finn' as you put it was decidedly anti-racist.

I think I almost completely agree with either you or your Devil's Advocate. I always include the context. But let's also be honest with one another, it is usually fairly easy to tell if it is the character that has the trait or the author.

But let's also be honest with one another, it is usually fairly easy to tell if it is the character that has the trait or the author.

So. Do you still base your score on context? Or on the traits you presume the author has?

Well on both of course. I try to bend over backward to be fair in my scoring which naturaly an impossible target.

But you asking me questions is not telling me your point of view and I am interested in the views of others to the points I am raising.

I cannot stand stories set in the normal world where a guy discovers a genie/magic/aliens.... and then doesn't spend hours/days exploring what would be the single greatest discovery in all of history.

Yes! Completely agree. I call this multiple suspensions of disbelief (or, to drop the double negative) multiple demands that I believe something untrue for the sake of the story. The keys are make the demand to believe explicit and don't pile on multiple demands, many of them implicit!

In your example, the existence of a genie would be an explicit request to believe. The author is basically saying to the reader, "Give me this one fantastical thing, and I'll give you a great story." But, when the author then goes on and has the characters behave in ways that are not within normal patterns of thinking and feeling -- woops! Implicit request to believe piled on top.

Having said that, I can think of stories on this site that I love and am following that do exactly what I said - one fantastical premise and then, oh yeah, for no reason associated with that premise, a group of characters behave in ways that are substantially outside the bounds of normal for the type of characters in the time and place of the story. I haven't exactly figured out why that is sometimes okay with me and sometimes turns me off so bad I dump the story!

Having said that, I can think of stories on this site that I love and am following that do exactly what I said... I haven't exactly figured out why that is sometimes okay with me and sometimes turns me off so bad I dump the story!

I do the same thing. Usually, I just cuss and spit the whole time, wishing the author would devote more time to the amazing discovery aspect. If I leave a review, I will be sure to mention the inconsistency because I really do think it is detracting from the overall quality of the story. It's like it could have been so much better, a real tale to be told, if only....

@JoeBobMack

Having said that, I can think of stories on this site that I love and am following that do exactly what I said... I haven't exactly figured out why that is sometimes okay with me and sometimes turns me off so bad I dump the story!

I do the same thing. Usually, I just cuss and spit the whole time, wishing the author would devote more time to the amazing discovery aspect. If I leave a review, I will be sure to mention the inconsistency because I really do think it is detracting from the overall quality of the story. It's like it could have been so much better, a real tale to be told, if only....

Take the Djinn out of it. Let's say someone in the real world discovered some artifact that grants wishes.

Does the average person contemplate where it came from and how it works, or do the go nuts trying to fix everything they think is wrong in their life and fulfilling every fantasy they can.

Now, the first reaction may make for a more interesting story, however, I think the latter reaction is more realistic to how most people would react.

I disagree entirely. As I said in the initial post, the McGuffin doesn't matter. All that's important is that it has some ability that's never ever been known in all of human history.

Yea, have the guy go nuts trying to right all the wrongs in the world. No doubt that any guy who got one of those McGuffins would have a field day getting laid, eating at the penthouse restaurants, etc.

But, honestly, if you found such a thing do you truly believe you wouldn't start contemplating the existence of God, aliens, magic or whatever powers it? And then worry about it being a test and possibly condemning yourself through what you do with it?

Even if you don't go that far, and I've known some people who wouldn't care one jot, you'd have to worry about it being tracked, what else might be out there, how your using it could put a target on your back, etc.

We're talking about the single greatest discovery in all of human history. Even the most decrepit city-dweller would have to stop and ponder some bigger questions than how to get that sexy girl into his bed.

But, honestly, if you found such a thing do you truly believe you wouldn't start contemplating the existence of God, aliens, magic or whatever powers it? And then worry about it being a test and possibly condemning yourself through what you do with it?

Edited:

I already believe in the existence of God, and I think there are probably Aliens out there somewhere* so no, not that much to wonder about there.

Maybe, a bit, in a backburner kind of way. Probably nothing more significant until I've played with it a bit.

Sorry, I am a firm believer in "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". And I do not believe myself to be an exception to that.

I am not The Shadow to know what darkness lurks in the hearts of other men, but I know the darkness in my own heart.

Hand me that kind of power and it won't end well.

*Why would God create such a large universe and put only us in it?

I already believe...

My only problem with that is that there's a really big difference between believing something and having hard physical evidence of it in your hands.

I don't know that we can ever truly believe in God because that's the whole point of faith. There has to be room for doubt.

If you hear a burning bush talking to you, or the Red Sea parts so you can get away from the school bullies... faith is no longer required.

Similarly, I don't know that power corrupts absolutely if you have proof that there is a God, demons, angels, magic, etc. With that tangible, undeniable proof in hand, it opens up everything. Moses was pretty powerful, yet not corrupted. King Soloman was powerful, but it was God who put him in that position, gifting him with wealth and wisdom beyond imagining. Was he corrupted somewhere?

For a guy like me, just an average joe, I don't know that I'd be corrupted because I'd be too worried about the downside to doing anything really bad with the McGuffin. Even if it was alien technology, doesn't the existence of aliens kind of suggest there's a lot more to everything? IF there can be aliens, why couldn't there be gods, demons, and all that?

Maybe that's just how my brain works, though. I could easily see me using my McGuffin to right wrongs and help people out. Sure, it'd help me out, too, but nothing evil since I'm not evil-inclined to begin with.

Of course, that's real easy to say since I know nobody's gonna be testing me on that any time soon!

I could easily see me using my McGuffin to right wrongs and help people out. Sure, it'd help me out, too, but nothing evil since I'm not evil-inclined to begin with.

The greatest evils are done by those who believe that they know what is best for everyone, for they will do the most terrible things with a clear conscience.

Ain't that the truth!

Of course, I'm different. Trust me.

But, honestly, if you found such a thing do you truly believe you wouldn't start contemplating the existence of God, aliens, magic or whatever powers it? And then worry about it being a test and possibly condemning yourself through what you do with it?

To me, there is no "everyone would..." answer to this question. People are too different. Which means that, in a story with some element (device, magic, super ability) that gives the protagonist some hitherto unimaginable power, the story HAS to become, at some point, a character-driven story. What would THIS character, with his or her background, goals, values, psychological makeup, character strengths, etc. do with the power.

In fact, I'm wrestling with this in my own work. I'm letting magic into the world, and I have to let some characters do questionable or even clearly immoral things with it. I do that with my clearly evil ones. But, what about those more in the middle, some of whom might just want to see what they could get away with? Got to figure out how to tell that part of the story.

But, what about those more in the middle,

That's always the tough part. I'm as nice a guy as you could ask for... but I'm just as capable as 'justifying' something like theft or whatever. I guess it all comes down to what's happening in the story.

For example, your character might be a very nice person and not believe in stealing in a general way, but when given a choice between that and going hungry... they justify it even if it means whoever they stole from has less to eat themselves. That journey, showing how the character deals with a small evil that did cause harm to others, can make the whole thing far more realistic and relatable.

Or, you could show him finding a way to pay for it, maybe by chopping firewood or fixing a car. Something that shows that you don't need to resort to theft if you just think outside the box.

Or, show him debating it, really wanting to steal that loaf of bread, and then finally screwing up his courage and deciding to suffer through the hunger pangs rather than debase himself, stain his honor, and become naught but a common thief. His hunger then motivates him to do more, fight harder, and better himself. It's a lesson in discipline and accepting that there are consequences for our actions, even if we don't like them.

Maybe he does steal the loaf of bread, but returns to the home a year later to confess his sins and repay them a hundred fold. In this way, the reader sees that the hero was always riddled with guilt over what he did, even though he understood he was forced to do it by his circumstances. It was that little thing which became his motivation to better himself so he could return and right what he did wrong.

Lots of ways to go about it, and I think it's kind of funny that we deal with stuff like this when a lot of the stories we read here are filled with what's basically rape of one sort or another, and we like them. We actually root for the guy that's stripping people of their free will, enslaving them in some form or fashion, yet can also debate moral quandaries.

I think it's kind of funny that we deal with stuff like this when a lot of the stories we read here are filled with what's basically rape of one sort or another, and we like them. We actually root for the guy that's stripping people of their free will, enslaving them in some form or fashion, yet can also debate moral quandaries.

I get what you're saying. In the series I'm working on, maybe the basic idea I started with was to set up a situation where a "good" guy had to both (a) take magical slaves and (b) treat them as such. I managed (a), but kept writing myself away from (b) to the point I'm going to have to re-write those aspects in the first book to make it consistent with the rest of the series.

I see a lot of that same dynamic in many of the stories set in The Swarm universe. A basic premise aimed at mostly-male domination, but a lot of the best stories (at least to me) in that universe stem from protagonists rejecting that premise and seeking a better arrangement.

What's the thing forcing him to treat them as slaves?

It's one thing to say he has to have the slaves because of magic, but what's forcing him to treat them as slaves? What does it mean to "treat as slaves"?

Does he have to order them about? Okay, well, he could just order them to go out, live their lives, have kids, and enjoy what they can. Then, act as his agents, his network of contacts that serve as something of a safety net.

They might not hear from him for years, but they know they are his slave and will serve his needs when he calls upon them. Until then, they are to do their best in life, get good jobs, have happy families, etc.

When he calls up for a favor, he keeps it small and simple, something fully within their means.

It all comes down to the universe you've created and the rules they have to play by.

For me, if I had a slave through some magical quirk, I wouldn't want them underfoot all the time. There's nothing worse than having to always give orders and live with someone when you could be having peace and quiet. I'd find a way to send them off on their own, to enjoy life as much as they could. If they became a spy for me, that'd be fine. I'd expect monthly reports by mail. Maybe send me 50 gold pieces every year.

One of the things I've always enjoyed is where the mind-controller enslaves people... but doesn't use them for a boinkfest. How many wealthy and powerful people are also gorgeous? Not many, I dare say!

It makes sense to take over a bank by taking over the CEO, and then using them as a slave to help build your empire. You don't have to have any real contact after that initial enslavement deal, and it keeps the story streamlined.

That way you could have hundreds of slaves and they're just regular people going about their regular lives.

Even if their only duty to you is to pay $5 into a paypal account every month, that's still makes them a slave serving their master. If you get enough of them.... that's pretty good money!

Oops. My bad. Magical sex slaves. And, as I said, I started off with the idea of him actually treating them as slaves, but I couldn't write it. There are evil masters addicted to power, but they are the antagonists.

Well, that's not too hard to get around. Even if they are bound to him through magic, he should be able to order them to do anything, not just boinking-related stuff. Unless you've written it so he has to boink them every few days.

Why not have him send them out to live their lives however they want, as long as they send him quarterly "erotic reports" that detail some of the sex they've had? He could justify it by saying it'll provide him with plenty of masturbatory material, thereby fulfilling his magical obligation to use them for sex.

Thus, they can lead normal lives, have families, and need only send their master a racy letter every few months.

Even if he keeps them close, he can allow them to lead their own lives, have their own lovers, as long as they write a saucy story twice a year. They'd still be there to help him fight the antagonists, and everyone's even more motivated to help after they see how awesome their master is.

You could write it as the slaves finally daring to experience hope. Seeing that there is good in the world, that their master has given them the chance at salvation, they fight like rabid dogs to slay the evildoers!

Why not have him send them out to live their lives however they want

I like your idea, but my story went another way. The original main character has a solid history of deep love for his family, even at the cost of personal happiness. He transfers this to his "slaves" and they become "bonded" in polyamorous relationships (under the magic, the slaves have to agree when offered a choice, which they make after receiving a vision of two futures). The initial set of other "masters" that gather around him are similarly focused, and the groups form the nucleus of the first magical community. There will be twists as magic spreads to more and more people, but the initial foundation is love, caring, and friendship.

That said, what you suggest could be a really interesting story, a master who tells his slaves to go live their lives. I'm guessing it wouldn't prove to be that simple, but that would be the fun!

I think that each story should be voted on for it's own merits.

I too have noticed that Oyster 50, and some others do write some formulaic stories.

I might stop reading a story that is too close a copy to a previous story.

I can understand a temptation to down vote such a story. But I would resist it.

I might take the time to Review the story, and mention how repetitive it seems to me. But I think I would not reduce the score.

Of course, thanks to my multiple TBI what's old is "New" again! 😆

Given my musical abilities, that thought frightens! :)

How do your score a story?

I sense the need for a grammar nazi.

How do you score? A story ...

You acknowledge a story is low on appeal for you but you're unwilling to share that opinion for the benefit of would-be readers.

If there were some way to state "the story sucks so badly I didn't finish it", I would vote. But some people really enjoy stories that I think suck, so why discourage them from reading it?

If an algorithm weighted the score a reader sees by the scores of similar readers (the ones who love stories you love and hate stories you hate), then there would be more of an incentive to vote, and to vote with some honesty. I'm guessing that would be a tough thing to code!

You are not allowed to do that. As I have been told on here before, "reviews" are to promote reading and not to actually review the stories. Reviews are to be positive only by rule.

Stories where characters react to things unlike any human who has ever lived.

This is the type of story where my scores tend to be significantly lower than those on this site. I call them hidden suspension of disbelief stories. They are presented as realistically set into the typical human world, but actually require the suspension of disbelief in normal human reactions. I don't like them, although some can be far enough over the border that the required suspension of disbelief is no longer hidden, and then I'm okay.

Also, some stories have both an obvious and a hidden requirement for suspension of disbelief. For example, stories in The Swarm universe have the obvious requirement of the science fiction setting. But they have a hidden element of being willing to believe that any significant number of individuals would behave as portrayed in the pickup scenes just because aliens said you have to in order to avoid the Sa'arm. And, in fact, a number of authors have written stories that address this where the characters, in one way or another, avoid the "let's see your bj skills" approach and shoot for more realistic human responses.

And, in fact, a number of authors have written stories that address this where the characters, in one way or another, avoid the "let's see your bj skills" approach and shoot for more realistic human responses.

I would argue that the "let's see your bj skills" approach is less unrealistic than you suggest given the circumstances of the Swarm universe.

Whether they are conscious of it or not, the sponsors aren't just evaluating sexual skills and responses, but a potential's ability to function as a concubine.

What sponsor would want to take someone who has to be put down after a week because they can't cope with being a concubine?

I don't rate stories because clearly either the rating system is fake or the rest of the users on this website have extremely different priorities in a story than I do.

This is a problem for a lot of rating systems (various types of happiness being one) that measure responses that tend to cluster at one end of the scale. Since people pick things they think they'll like, then often don't rate unless they like it enough to finish it, they're very likely to rate the story high. You can see this on Amazons, where the difference in a 4.2 and a 4.5 rating is pretty significant -- at least, I often find that to be the case.

Since we share some characteristics in what we like, I'd be interested in stories on this site rate highly with you.

You are right about the Amazon score system, and its no different on here. I find anything below an 8 to be, for the most part, unreadable. Between 8 and 9 is a toss up as to whether I am able to finish a story and over 9 is generally a good story, with some notable exceptions which I am just baffled by their popularity.

I liked pretty much every story on the "Authors favorites" list. I am pretty easy to please, at least I think so. All I want is a story with characters that act normal, talk normal and where something happens that is interesting. "Normal" can change with the setting and scenario of the story of course.

Considering how few (relatively speaking) stories score in the upper 8s and in the 9s, that means you basically like less than 1% of stories. That's not easy to please at all.

I don't follow your reasoning. You are taking "easy to please" as pleased by anything, when it was meant and explained as having simple requirements a story must meet to please me. A kid who likes chicken nuggets is easy to please, even if he dislikes 99% of the menu, because chicken nuggets are simple and easy.

To be fair, I haven't read many stories that score under an 8, so maybe there is an oasis of quality writing that is being voted down for some reason by readers here.

That amazes me. The stories I mostly give up on (excluding those I give up on because they're bad from the beginning) are those in the 8s and 9s.

I mean me too, but thats only because I only read things for the most part that score an 8 and above. I read so many stories that are above an 8 that I greatly dislike, that reading anything below an 8 seems like a waste of time. I am sure there are some gems that are scored low for weird reasons like there was a typo (people seem to care more about this than whether the characters act human for some reason), but I have not gotten desperate enough to go wading through the 7's.

However, using some of your suggested categories, or similar; on a 1-10 scale (with an option for N/A). It would be similar to the Reviews that have 3 categories.

The average score would be equivalent to the current single score. Ideally, the subcategories would be searchable by score.

IIRC: The voting used to have the same 3 categories as the reviews. however the vast majority of users who bothered to vote at all only voted the personal appeal category.

From what I've read about this sort of thing, most people just pick a 1 if they don't like something, and the top rank if they do. And the rest of numbers just don't get good use.

I'm not so sure about that. Some may do so because they either love or hate specific authors or stories with certain tags but others will probably default to a 6 or 7 and up or down that considering how they liked the story.

If you wanted a good scoring system you'd break down into 4 or 5 things, and each one would only have a yes or no.

Many readers don't bother to vote at all so having an extended system of choices will never work, no matter how convenient the results would be for both readers and authors. The best bet to get more readers to vote is a simple one-click 5-star system. Not perfect and not very accurate but it has a much bigger chance of readers voting at all. And more voters should, in theory, result in a more accurate overall score.

Aiieee! Funny!!

In fact I now find myself wanting to score the comments here.

Would you give it a classical, jazz, rock & roll or techno score?

Sorry but I have to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. Pre- and post Brexit, the ONLY currency used in the UK is pounds sterling. The only places that might accept Euros were (are) major London shops with large numbers of tourist customers. BTW same would apply to Dollars. And you could be pretty sure that those currency notes would be part of money laundering. Otherwise bank cards would be used.

Euros would not be accepted elsewhere, and that means 99.99% of retail outlet. Try paying for fish and chips with Euros in Bishop's Stortford (the town nearest to Stansted) and you might not survive the experience.

nor is it likely that any Londoner would be there for any reason but working there.

What, no Londoners ever travel?