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Natural forces pantheon

El_Sol

Working mentally though a story and had to create a pantheon. I want it based on the most 'basic' natural forces, both ones based in reality and ones I add.

Need help with the ones based in reality.

God of Gravity
God of Heat

(ones I am adding which is where the story mostly lives, Goddeses of Life and Magic).

So if any of the more scientific minded of you can help to add to the reality ones, I would appreciate it. Doesn't have to be many, as I just sprinkle it in to add different world flavor.

Dominions Son

@El_Sol

Consider thermodynamics instead of "heat"

Electromagnetism

Kinetics/motion

Not a force but consider a god of mass, he even has is own particle (Higgs boson)

Nuclear (strong/weak)

Gauthier

@El_Sol

most 'basic' natural forces


There are only 4 fundamental forces:
- Gravity
- Weak nuclear
- Electromagnetic
- Strong nuclear
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force

Replies:   samuelmichaels
samuelmichaels

@Gauthier

There are only 4 fundamental forces:
- Gravity
- Weak nuclear
- Electromagnetic
- Strong nuclear
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force

Or maybe 3, if you consider Electroweak as one interaction.

I am not sure I can easily imagine gods of such basic forces. How about gods of basic emotions -- Fear, Anger, Hunger and Lust?

El_Sol

The reason in this universe for a force pantheon is that magic was a known force from the very beginning. Before man knew anything about anything else, he understood magic. And magic has been associated with a Goddess in even the oldest historical texts.

So any Gods that came after were created in the same mold.

Mostly due to other religions that arose would have leaders that were offended by magicians and get wiped out when it became a real conflict.

Crumbly Writer

Sorry, but I think your basic premise is weak. Pantheons are generally created by largely primitive folk to explain forces of nature they don't understand, but which play havoc with their lives. By the time a culture advances to the point they can recognize forces of the universe, they've already bought into a single God (of whichever strip), and won't back down come hell or high water. Thus I can't see anyone following a goddess of bosons (bosoms maybe).

I see where you're going, and your basic aim, but I just don't think it'll be a natural fit needed to create a good story.

Generally, when creating a universe, you want to establish some very specific rules which govern everything. You can create some pretty exotic things, but the more complicated you make it, the quicker it all falls apart. The best thing for a story is simplicity, so your own rules don't trip you up as you forget rule 23 while writing rule 36.

That said, good luck with whatever you create. In most of my cases, I create a fairly extensive universe with very simple principals, and then hide the underlying principals so they can be leaked out a little at a time, the characters only realizing the underlying principals by the very end and then saying 'Oh, yeah. That makes sense!'

Replies:   Grant  richardshagrin
Grant

@Crumbly Writer

The best thing for a story is simplicity, so your own rules don't trip you up as you forget rule 23 while writing rule 36.

One of the best examples of this are Isaac Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics.
There were only 3 very basic laws, but the interactions & interpretations of those laws have resulted in entire series of stories & other very excellent stand alone stories.

Replies:   rustyken
Ernest Bywater

@El_Sol

from this wiki page, and it has links to many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_deities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nature_deities

One of these is your God of Fire and Heat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fire_gods

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_%28mythology%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacus

do some research
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caca_%28mythology%29

For Life you can use:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decima_%28mythology%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nona_%28deity%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clotho

For magic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivia_%28mythology%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate

El_Sol

Thanks folks -- I like Gauthier.

Even allows for early gods of heat and electricity to evolve into a new god as people's knowledge improved.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
richardshagrin
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

I understand homonym policing gets tiresome, particularly for the one getting the ticket. However, do you mean principals or principles? If the pal principal you are talking about a person. If the ple principle you intend underlying theories or reasons. So are you hiding persons (or gods) or the rules your universe runs by?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@El_Sol

The forces we know about don't satisfactorily explain the big bang(s), black holes or dark matter, so the list is almost certainly incomplete.

Are you aware of the Disney film 'Inside Out'? It seems to me that you could produce a very entertaining story by converting those emotions, or something similar, into Gods. (yes, I know @samuelmichaels has already suggested something along those lines.)

In similar vein I thought of a set a little more cerebral; Compulsion, Temptation, Procrastination, Delegation and Abstention.

Good luck, AJ

richardshagrin

@awnlee jawking

One of these days we might discuss the God of Procrastination.

awnlee_jawking

@richardshagrin


One of these days we might discuss the God of Procrastination.


I sense the God of Temptation is working on you :)

AJ

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

One of these days we might discuss the God of Procrastination.


What's to discuss? 14 Billion years and he hasn't gotten around to doing anything yet.

Replies:   awnlee jawking  Not_a_ID
samuelmichaels

@awnlee jawking

In similar vein I thought of a set a little more cerebral; Compulsion, Temptation, Procrastination, Delegation and Abstention.

How about the God of Schadenfreude?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Dominions Son

I know that was intended humorously but it raises a serious issue: Gods never do as they preach. Read the sacred tomes of the Abrahamic religions for example. So a God of Anger wouldn't necessarily be angry all the time but he would inspire anger in us mere mortals. And a God of Procrastination might personally be very active while eg encouraging politicians to postpone reforms to help the sick and the poor.

AJ

awnlee jawking

@samuelmichaels


How about the God of Schadenfreude?


A good question. I like to think there was a common theme to my five candidates but I've been unable to articulate just what it is. Somehow Schadenfreude doesn't seem to fit. It's more post-action rather than pre-action.

If anyone has a clue what I'm burbling on about...

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

A good question. I like to think there was a common theme to my five candidates but I've been unable to articulate just what it is. Somehow Schadenfreude doesn't seem to fit.


Your set are all motivators for action where as schadenfreude is an emotional reaction to someone else's actions

Not_a_ID

@richardshagrin

One of these days we might discuss the God of Procrastination.


Longest running discussion ever.

Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

What's to discuss? 14 Billion years and he hasn't gotten around to doing anything yet.


Much like it is very difficult to kill something that is already dead... It is very difficult to procrastinate on a project nobody has started to even conceptualize.

So imagine he is busy creating an ever growing to-do list.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

Much like it is very difficult to kill something that is already dead... It is very difficult to procrastinate on a project nobody has started to even conceptualize.


Except making a to do list is it's self a project, which the god of procrastination would put off to another day.

Replies:   samuelmichaels
Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

One of these days we might discuss the God of Procrastination.


nah, take too long between message posts if done right. Back in 1970 I was invited to be a founding member of the Australian Procrastinators Association, when I didn't respond to the 1995 follow up request the dirty buggers made me their Patron.

samuelmichaels

@Dominions Son

Except making a to do list is it's self a project, which the god of procrastination would put off to another day.


Never put off til tomorrow something you can avoid doing altogether.

awnlee jawking

@samuelmichaels

I sense the God of Abstention at work here ;)

AJ

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@awnlee jawking

To stain is to put a mark on something. Or maybe treat wood so it has a different color. To ab stain would be to avoid making a stain. In a sense, abstention is the failure to do things. Sure looks like procrastination to me. Maybe the way Greek and Roman gods have different names but similar natures.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
rustyken

@Grant

In at least on of DB Story's books there was a list of imperatives that guide a robot's actions. Not sure which book, but they maybe in several. I do know that they are mentioned at some point in all of them.

Cheers, RustyKen

awnlee jawking

@richardshagrin

Yes, Abstention was not a good choice of word but it wasn't too far away from the meaning I wanted (an outright refusal to do something) and it ands with 'tion'.

I'm actually thinking of writing something using these Gods - it could be fun, albeit challenging.

AJ

Replies:   sejintenej
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

I understand homonym policing gets tiresome, particularly for the one getting the ticket. However, do you mean principals or principles? If the pal principal you are talking about a person. If the ple principle you intend underlying theories or reasons. So are you hiding persons (or gods) or the rules your universe runs by?

Sorry for that confusion. Typically, when I'm on the forums, I write first without self-editing, and thus I'll often make fairly simply typos which sometimes affect my meaning.

I was referring to princiles which the story reflects and emphasizes.

@awnlee jawking

Are you aware of the Disney film 'Inside Out'? It seems to me that you could produce a very entertaining story by converting those emotions, or something similar, into Gods. (yes, I know @samuelmichaels has already suggested something along those lines.)

Rather than going that route, I'd instead point you to the differing forms of religions in different cultures. Dieties/Gods only reigned supreme in a few, very specific cultures.

The breakdown between cultures seems to be along the lines of:
1) Gods and Goddesses which reflect the fickle personalities of nature,
2) Spirits, which reflects on the personal intervention of one's ancestors in one's daily trevails (this includes not just the American Indians and many primitive tribes, but certain aspects of Japanese culture as well), and
3) Forces of Nature (i.e. "Good vs. Evil", or "Nature vs. Man"), reflecting on the diametrically opposing forces casting everything into a fight over larger principles.

If you take another look at ancestor worshipping cultures, you'll have a very different story, especially if your story has two warring cultures, one worshiping gods, and one honoring their ancestors--with each better able to handle specific types of conflicts, while failing at others.

@Not_an_ID

So imagine he [the God of Procrastination] is busy creating an ever growing to-do list.

That creates a wonderful mental image, a God so preoccupied with compiling a never ending list, that he never finishes either the list, or begins the future actions which first inspired the list.

It's akin to pushing a boulder to the top of a mountain, only to have it roll back down again when gravity overwhelms it.

By the way, don't take any of these opinions (of mine) too seriously, as I realize I'm the odd-ball exception here, arguing against creating a new generation of 21st Century Gods to reflect science (The God of Atheism, anyone?).

I was trying to interject an alternative perspective, rather than sidetrack the original story. I don't think you could write your story given my original position (that science has become the new pantheon of the post-Industrial Age of Enlightenment).

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Crumbly Writer

I think the God of Atheism is a fascinating concept. I suspect he wouldn't care if he were worshiped or not. Might there also be a God of Agnostics?

transdelion

He wouldn't know if He existed or not! Paralyzed by self-doubt, He becomes frozen in time.... Followers ask themselves, "To be or not to be? Am I or am I not?" If their God doesn't think, do they exist? Oh, the angst of it all.

sejintenej

@awnlee jawking

Yes, Abstention was not a good choice of word but it wasn't too far away from the meaning I wanted (an outright refusal to do something) and it ands with 'tion'.

Had a look at the theasaurus - best I could see was "declination" / "declinature" though, whilst having the same effect they do not have the clear and obvious appearance of outright refusal HTH

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@sejintenej

Thanks for looking on my behalf.

AJ

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@awnlee jawking

What could be more important to writers than words?

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

What could be more important to writers than words?


Ideas
stories

Almost anyone can string a few words together, but without an idea to express or a story to tell, would they be worth reading?

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

Ouch. Ok, as a reviewer and reader I agree readable stories are the most important thing. However, almost all those stories are made up of words, so words matter too.

Replies:   graybyrd  Dominions Son
graybyrd
Updated:

@richardshagrin


words matter too


Alright, kids. Don't forget the ABC's while yer at it. And there's them pesky vowels 'n consonants, too!

Cro Magnon hunter Flark at campfire: "Gronnnkkk!" {{BASH!}} "Unnngghkk!" {{POW!}} "Shghunnggh!" {{CRUNCH!}} whhhiimmphr... (hunting celebration)

ABCs, Vowels, Words, Plot, Grammar, what more could you want?

Next?

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

What could be more important to writers than words?

Paychecks? Royalties? Sales? Paying the rent?

As someone who hasn't seen much of any of those, I can vouch they've been rumored to exist!

Replies:   Dominions Son
Not_a_ID

@graybyrd

And there's them pesky vowels 'n consonants, too!


Unless you're Welsh. Then vowels become optional. :P

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

owever, almost all those stories are made up of words, so words matter too.


Yes, words matter too, they just don't matter more than the idea or story that inspires you to try to string them together.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Paychecks? Royalties? Sales? Paying the rent?


I have a nice regular (decent sized too) paycheck, it just doesn't come from writing.

No rent here, but I do pay a mortgage.

Bondi Beach

@samuelmichaels

Never put off til tomorrow something you can avoid doing altogether.


One of the guys on my team years ago took this attitude with respect to inquiries that according to the jefes had to be answered within 72 hours. I kept prodding him with no success.

"Why jump to it?" he said. "Chances are it's going to resolve itself anyway, so there's no point to worrying."

Funny thing is, he was right. Most of the time.

bb

Replies:   sejintenej
sejintenej

@Bondi Beach

"Why jump to it?" he said. "Chances are it's going to resolve itself anyway, so there's no point to worrying."

Funny thing is, he was right. Most of the time.

There was an informal survey of relatively junior staff done a decade ago in the City of London about decisions by their bosses.
Some managers make nearly instantaneous decisions whilst others demand the last iota of information before deciding.
Based on hindsight about 48%of the decisions made instantaneously were correct but only about 50%of the decisions made with all the facts turned out right.
The comment was made that those who demanded full information often missed the opportunity available because they took so long.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@sejintenej

The comment was made that those who demanded full information often missed the opportunity available because they took so long.

It's long been argued that that's the very reason for demanding every detail: they're hoping the problem will disappear before they have to disappear. It's called being 'passive-aggressive', and it applies equally to both bosses and underlings.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


The comment was made that those who demanded full information often missed the opportunity available because they took so long.



It's long been argued that that's the very reason for demanding every detail: they're hoping the problem will disappear before they have to disappear. It's called being 'passive-aggressive', and it applies equally to both bosses and underlings.


While that CAN be a manifestation of the behavior, usually it isn't the result of someone being passive-aggressive. For it to meet that bar, there has to be a deliberate intention to harm someone or something, and to do so using a "passive" means that can't easily be considered offensive on face value("first glance") alone.

But then, checking wiki, looks like it(passive-aggressive) has undergone yet another redefinition so whatever on that front I guess.

As to demanding every detail hoping the decision will disappear before they do. Yeah, it's a form of "cover-your-ass." If there is a decision that should be made but you think it can endanger your career, you do everything you can to defer responsibility to somebody else(your juniors, there is a reason shit rolls downhill and bureaucracy is ever growing after all. Each new tier of management wants another tier of management below them to protect them from fallout from any "bad decisions" that may occur), and data gathering is the easiest and safest way to do so.

After all, by the time the data gathering is complete, the decision may already have been made for all intents as the opportunity has already come and gone, but if it is still there in some form, you now have cover(in the form of all that data) to use in the event you do make a decision, and it turns out to be a bad one. Either way, you can point the blame towards your subordinates, for failure to provide the requested information in a timely enough manner to act on it, or of failing to provide them with "accurate information" in regards to the current state of the project in question.

In which case, it's not being passive-aggressive, it's called being a Bureaucrat instead of being a Leader. Leaders take risks, and are willing to fail. Bureaucrats simply manage and largely try to maintain a status quo while doing everything possible to make sure that if something goes wrong, blame for failure falls in the lap of somebody that isn't them.

There actually is a legitimate use for both, as bureaucrats are very good at trying to keep things constant and predictable, something that helps leaders and other bureaucrats alike in their own decision making. The problem happens when the bureaucrats manage to make it nearly impossible for the leader types to show their stripes because "they're inconsistent."

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

While that CAN be a manifestation of the behavior, usually it isn't the result of someone being passive-aggressive. For it to meet that bar, there has to be a deliberate intention to harm someone or something, and to do so using a "passive" means that can't easily be considered offensive on face value("first glance") alone.

Sorry, but I disagree. Very few 'passive-aggressive' individuals I know do it consciously. Instead, they behave like that because they feel powerless, and it's their way of striking back at the world. They're not aware of it, unless called on it, but it still governs their behavior.

This is more a matter of definition ("what's passive-agressive?") rather than a discussion of what's in the current literature on the subject.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Crumbly Writer

Sorry, but I disagree. Very few 'passive-aggressive' individuals I know do it consciously. Instead, they behave like that because they feel powerless, and it's their way of striking back at the world. They're not aware of it, unless called on it, but it still governs their behavior.

This is more a matter of definition ("what's passive-agressive?") rather than a discussion of what's in the current literature on the subject.


It still contains an intent for harm, a deliberate one at that, just on a level they're not consciously aware of. Still doesn't rule out others showing comparable traits, for other reasons that may not include an active harm intent, such as the bureaucrat example where the intent remains almost exclusively self-centered(protection of themselves) rather than anything aimed outward.

I've dealt with the nearly oblivious passive-aggressive(and borderline co-dependent, which is a very nasty pairing) before. I've also been party to deliberate and concerted passive-aggressive behavior at a group level, appropriately enough, while in the military at that as the term originated there. (Dealing with multiple tiers of bad leadership in close proximity to each other in a decision chain that you can't pull a "I quit" on will do that)

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