Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

As a reader, I am sure I am not alone who waits for the last chapter BEFORE I read a single sentence. I'd like to know how you've made that conclusion.

A small group of readers do like you, waiting for stories to complete, but the majority prefer reading stories a chapter at a time. That way, they've got a constant source of reading material, and they don't have to worry about wasting too much time (I'm assuming).

The majority of my readers read while the story's unfolding. When it completes, an entirely new group starts. The strange thing, though not entirely, is that the scores after a story completes are typically worse than those who read the story before it completes, probably because those readers weren't attracted enough by the story to be interested, and simply aren't crazy about the plot.

Also, those readers (who wait for stories to finish) are more influenced by the final score, so it's important to draw readers during posting in order to influence and draw readers once the story finishes posting. In short, authors can affect the readership of stories while they're posting, but once the entire story is posted, they have little control over the story anymore.

There are hundreds of you and I am one of the readers. So, how can I, with any clarity, read 100 stories while they are being posted?
It can not be done, don't you agree. I care not for scores, I've got to know many of you who write well and as such are on my list. I select stories on the bases of the codes I prefer and off I go.

I don't disagree with you (that finished stories are easier to read), but what many of us were explaining is why there are exceptions to that rule (those searching for new authors, those with time to weed through the chaff, and those who prefer reading a chapter at a time (because it's not such an all-consuming obligation).

I've got no problem with your wanting to read finished stories, however, since most of our feedback is from readers who respond to ongoing stories, most authors respond to those who respond more frequently.

It is a philosophical question too, however, this is not a place to debate that aspect of human activity.

Sounds like the makings of a good story.

Oooo, yesss!

Please,
I would very much like to read another good story!
Pretty please :)

I'm always eager to produce good stories, but you missed my point. I was suggesting that YOU write the story. No one else will ever feel for a story idea as strongly as you do. What's more, they won't have a feel for the story that you do. Because it strikes at your core, it's usually better to try writing it yourself, even if you've never written something yourself.

All of us started from scratch, and most of us posting on SOL didn't start with an education in creative writing or English composition. Instead, we just ended up stumbling into it.

I'd like to know how you've made that conclusion.

Posting over time, in most cases, puts it before more readers. Also, if it goes on long enough many readers will re-read early parts and up the download count, thus giving the impression of more readers.

One down-side is if you post on the same day each week on a weekly basis, you may not get that many extra readers because there are a number who check in only once or twice a week and if your story isn't on the home page and before them at that time they'll miss it. That's why I do the every other day because over the length of posting a novel (usual 7 to 10 posts) it appears on every day of the week at least once.

That's why I do the every other day because over the length of posting a novel (usual 7 to 10 posts) it appears on every day of the week at least once.

That makes sense, Ernest. In my case, I avoid posting on the weekend--too many stories post on Saturdays, so the story gets lost in the shuffle, and there's too little traffic on Sundays--and typically post the same days each week. Many readers prefer knowing when to turn in to read your story. If it skips days, they never know when to turn in. Posting on the same day is like a nice comfy chair, you know you can come, sit back and enjoy yourself, rather than arriving just to search for a seat.

Posting on either Thursday or Friday makes sense since most non-premier readers get a 3-day view of stories, so weekend readers can see a story posted on those days, while also garnering more attention during the week.

As you can tell, there are a lot of competing theories about when to post.

Many readers prefer knowing when to turn in to read your story.

When I start posting a story I make a blog entry with the story size, how many posts, and the cycle it's posting on. Most of my regular readers know I do every other day, so they check every other day, and those who read the blog learn to check every other day. So, in a way, it's still a regular day it's posted on, just not a specific regular week day. I know what you mean about the weekend, especially Saturday in the USA.

I forgot to add, sometimes I will disrupt my every other day cycle when a public holiday is coming up. If the cycle has a post the day before Christmas and the day after, I'll often alter the cycle to have the day before Christmas, Christmas, and two days later - thus giving the readers an extra read on Christmas day. I'll often do the same on other major holidays - whenever I remember the dang things on on.

I imagine, shorter stories are more likely to post quickly

I tend to write short stories of under 10,000 words, novels of 35,000 to 70,000 words, or sagas of 70,000 words and up. The short stories go up in one post, the novels and sagas I tend to post in 5,000 to 10,000 word chunks. That's because I hate it when I see an author has posted a new chapter and then it only takes me a couple of minutes to read and it's taken him a week to do that. That's one of the reasons why I rarely read on-going stories now, a couple of authors did that too often. I figure 5,000 words is the minimal nice read, and 10,000 words is a good read without keeping them up all night. I use the options in SoL to ensure it gets posted with a new part every other day, regardless of what I'm doing. Some of my stories take over a month to post, they're that long, and some are up in a week.

Another advantage my system has is when I start to post the story at SoL I make an e-book version available of the full story. That way anyone who can't be bothered to wait for it to appear at SoL can spend a few bucks at Lulu and get it all at once.

It all comes down to personal choices. I prefer not to post until after completion because it means I can makes changes to early parts if I want to alter the direction. It's a more convenient way to manage the overall story. I have the story appear a part every other day to keep it on the SoL home page longer and get it before more readers, I use the every other day cycle because it keeps the readers' interest and eventually has something being up on every day of the week during the posting cycle. I think this is important because some people check SoL on a specific day each week, and can miss things posted on other days.

typo edit

I figure 5,000 words is the minimal nice read, and 10,000 words is a good read without keeping them up all night.

That's handy for the 'retired set' on SOL, but it doesn't work with working people (who are more interested in quick-reading published books). I've found my lengthy books seems to work against me, but I'm trying to find a happy medium between my shorter chapters and the longer ones my regular SOL readers prefer.

That's handy for the 'retired set' on SOL,

The feedback I get from readers, both SoL and Lulu, is they like the longer stories to read while travelling or relaxing at night. I fellow says he loves a new story to download the day before he has to take a long flight for work.

That said I do want regular postings - not a year between chapters (as happened with one story I gave up on)

Another reason for completing a story before posting. In that case, even if you're struck dumb with writers block, you can always continue editing, keeping the story unfolding at a regular basis as you wrestle with your creative writing dilemmas. Writing and editing take two separate mindsets. It's hard jumping from one to the other, but sometimes, by balancing them, you can avoid many of the typical writers roadblocks.

Even if real life intervenes, if you have some warning, you can prepare your chapters in advance and schedule them for automatic release over time, allowing you to undergo surgery (or divorce) as your story unfolds at a regular pace. Which is another reason why I emphasize posting in accordance to how long your next book takes to write. It's hard to schedule, but slowing delivery so there's not long delays makes it easier on the readers and prevents them from wandering away in the interim.

a) I am sure Lazeez would have words if all 293 chapters were dumped on, him in one block and b) a reader would be overwhelmed and possibly give up.

In regards to (a) it wouldn't worry Lazeez all that much because much of the system is automated.

As to (b) it's no different to finding a story after it's finished being posted (most of those on SoL are this way) or buying a book.

Reason is simple - american soap operas have no ending...
Everybody else has learned that everything must end ....

On American TV, everything continues indefinitely, until they're cancelled, so often, there's absolutely NO resolution of any kind!

It's worse than that, US presidential politics makes the US soap operas look like a font of originality.

You're right. I'd never cast any of the current slate of candidates. They all lack believability!

Used car salesman would be the most reviled of all professions, if it wasn't for politicians.

I'd add in priests/preachers to that...

Lawyers? Naaaaah. Visiting a law office is a lot like visiting a whorehouse - You know you are going to get fucked and you are going to pay for it. No problem!

The longer it takes the more you both pay your lawyers. Why would they want to settle quickly?

Find one who'll agree to a Pro Bono payment for the case. You'll probably end up with a little less than if it was straight fees case finished that quickly but less cost than if it dragged on. Since they get a percentage of the payout, the quicker they can settle the case the less expenses they incur and the more profit they make.

Are you perhaps confusing Pro Bono (= free to the client) with Contingency (= lawyer gets a percentage of the settlement, if they win)?

My understanding from past interactions with lawyers here is Pro Bono means they get a percentage of the settlement, and contingency means they get their set fees as payment only if they win. In either case, whichever is the one they go by, it doesn't cost you anything up front and they work harder to get a win and done quicker.

Pro Bono means the legal services are donated. This is generally limited to court appointed lawyers, but not always (often, if lawyers want to take a case to the Supreme Court and the plaintiff has no money, they'll take on the case because of the potential benefit to their careers).

Pro Bono Publico
literally "for the public good"
Definition: Denoting work undertaken for the public good without charge, especially legal work for a client with a low income.

In answer to your question, as a reader, I don't mind getting it one or two chapters at a time, as long as the posting is long enough to have some completion to it.

I've always thought that SOL readers prefer longer stories specifically because they're posted a chapter at a time. Readers want to sit down and read. A single 6,000 to 10,000 word chapter is a decent read, but it's an awkward size in a book (i.e. it's longer than most readers want to sit before putting the book down and going to sleep).

In books, readers (seem to) prefer shorter chapters, so they have greater freedom to read multiple chapters, but have the option to quit on a more frequent basis, whereas SOL readers prefer committing to a single longer read.

The problem is that it promotes bloated fiction. That's what I discovered in my writing. No matter what I tried, I couldn't cut much from my books. Where others claim to cut 30+% from their text, even my professional editor (given free reign to cut as much as she wanted), couldn't cut that much--even though she eliminated my 'author's voice' in the process.

It was then I realized that I need to write more concise chapters. Each chapter stands on its own, and resolves the issues raised in each chapter, but they're only as long as they need to be, rather than artificially inflated to meet (SOL) reader expectations.

However, as good as that sounds, I'm still wrestling with how to present those chapters to the SOL readers. Despite the chapters being smaller, I'm still concerned with giving myself time to write subsequent books so I don't leave readers hanging between books.

For me the length of the chapter is secondary. As long as the chapter actually adds something to the overall story and not just to try and keep the story on the updated list. Quality is always first.

Thanks, Doc. That's what I've been planning on. I'm keeping each chapter as concise (short) as possible, but ensuring each chapter deals with the issues at hand (while leaving the bigger issues unresolved until the end). However, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Unfortunately, I won't actually know for another several books, as I'm slowly whittling my chapter sizes over time.

There are stories where I read the first couple of postings when they are posted and decide this story would be better if I wait until it is done (if it is going to be finished). Some of those stories when they are done I read the whole story, maybe over a couple of days when its really long, and some of those I quit in the middle when what I read confirms the story isn't one I want to read. At least I didn't read it a chapter or two when they were posted.

That's my point about the people who wait until a story is finished: generally, they'll rank your story much lower than those who read a chapter at a time, simply because they weren't that interested in the plot in the first place. But, you can decide whether the story is worth pursuing reading it a chapter at a time. If a story is bad, or suffers from substantial plot holes, it generally doesn't improve by the end. Also, many feel that 'reading the ending' to see if it's worth reading spoils the story, and then aren't interested in the details (this applies to mysteries in particular).

On another web site there is a story with over 2800 chapters or should that be episodes. A chapter written most days.
The chapters are fairly short and some people have read from the beginning over a period of weeks.

You didn't mention how long each 'chapter' is, but I'd have to qualify those as episodes, and if they ever published, I'm sure they'd consolidate most of those into larger, better organized chapters.

Still, 2800 chapters would intimidate the hell out of me. I'd be wary of even cracking the cover on that one. If each episode is only 1,000 words, then the entire book is only 2,800,000 words, a phenomenal size! Essentially, that would translate into 46 full-sized novels!

Personally, I would consider 60K words kind of small for a novel, a very light read. There are plenty of dead tree novels out there well over 100K words.

It varies widely based on genre. Mysteries are notoriously short, as were old-time romances. Sci-fi and historical dramas are typically much larger (80,000 to 100,000 for traditionally published books). All bets are off for Indie eBooks, where page counts don't affect cost, so the page counts have climbed--until Amazon Select, which (used to) benefit exceptionally short stories (2,000 to 10,000 words only).

Still, if we assume 100,000 words for each book, that one story would form 28 long sci-fi novels. Sounds like it could use a little editing. 'D

I'd say I have good evidence to the contrary, since a decade later, it's still my most-read piece.

I'd say that's more about it being what people like to read.

Once the story is fully posted people are going to read it at their own pace, anyway. The only thing that posting a story over time does is keep it's name and summary on the SoL Homepage longer because each new part posted will appear as a new posting - thus it gets the story before more readers during the time of posting. This is good to help establish a new author by getting more readers early up.