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I'm surprised he didn't include....

Wheezer

Tags: Ma/Fa, mt/ft, Ma/ft, mt/Fa, Fa/Fa, ft/ft, Fa/ft, Ma/Ma, Ma/mt, mt/mt, Mult, Teenagers, Consensual, NonConsensual, Reluctant, Rape, Coercion, Blackmail, Mind Control, Hypnosis, Magic, Slavery, Gay, Lesbian, BiSexual, Heterosexual, Fiction, Crime, Science Fiction, Paranormal, Cheating, Slut Wife, Wife Watching, Revenge, Incest, Mother, Son, Brother, Sister, Cousins, Uncle, Aunt, Nephew, InLaws, BDSM, DomSub, MaleDom, FemaleDom, Spanking, Rough, Light Bond, Humiliation, Sadistic, Torture, Swinging, Gang Bang, Group Sex, Orgy, Harem, Polygamy/Polyamory, Interracial, White Couple, Black Female, White Male, White Female, Hispanic Male, First, Oral Sex, Anal Sex, Masturbation, Petting, Fisting, Sex Toys, Squirting, Water Sports, Cream Pie, Exhibitionism, Voyeurism, Double Penetration, Tit-Fucking, Analingus, Size, Doctor/Nurse, BBW, Leg Fetish, Body Modification, Teacher/Student, Babysitter, Big Breasts, Clergy, Public Sex, Violent, Workplace, School, Nudism, Porn Theatre


What??? No enemas? I can't think of anything else he left out! :P

Ernest Bywater

@Wheezer

I can't think of anything else he left out!


And I bet he did it all under 100 kb, too.

Grant

@Wheezer

What??? No enemas? I can't think of anything else he left out! :P

I have to admit, when I saw that block on the page I didn't bother to even look at the story description. I just wrote it off as "Not for me"

cave jug

@Wheezer

Whoever this guy is, he needs to up his medications.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@cave jug

Maybe our host will comment with the story with the most codes.

The story being referenced, "Do As You're Told" http://storiesonline.net/s/47101 has to be a contender.

Replies:   smask
Switch Blayde

@Wheezer

It's only Chapter 6. More codes to come.

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer

@Switch Blayde

It's only Chapter 6. More codes to come.


ROFLMAOPIP! (and yes, he's coded for watersports too...)

docholladay

@Wheezer

I don't know about everyone else. But when I run across tags like that, I just put the story or whatever on my ignore list. And if the writer doesn't learn he or she winds up on it as well.

JohnBobMead

@Wheezer

I can't think of anything else he left out!


Snuff. He didn't code for snuff. Nor for small breasts.

Zom

There are 188 codes. He has used 96. The codes he has not used are :
2nd POV,Aliens,Amputee,BDSM Elements,Bestiality,Black Couple,Black Male,boy,Cannibalism,Cat-Fighting,Caution,Celebrity,Couples,CrossDressing,Cuckold,Daughter,DoOver,Drunk/Drugged,Enema,Extra Sensory Perception,Fan Fiction,Father,Fetishes,Flatulence,Food,Foot Fetish,Furry,Genie,Ghost,girl,Grand Parent,Groups,Hairy,Hermaphrodite,High Fantasy,Hispanic Female,Historical,Horror,Humor,Indian Erotica,Indian Female,Indian Male,Interracial Elements,Lactation,Level of Consent,Lolita,Menstrual Play,Military,Mystery,Necrophilia,Needles,Niece,non-anthro,Novel-Classic,Novel-Pocketbook,Oriental Female,Oriental Male,Other,Pedophilia,Politics,Post Apocalypse,Pregnancy,Prostitution,Robot,Romantic,Royalty,Safe Sex,Scatology,Sexual Activities,Sexual Orientations,Shemale,Slow,Small Breasts,Snuff,Space,Sports,Squirting,Story Types,Superhero,Tear Jerker,Time Travel,Transformation,TransGender,True Story,Vampires,Vignettes,War,Were animal,Western,Wimp Husband,Zombies,Zoophilia

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Zom

There are 188 codes. He has used 96


You have way too much time on your hands, you need a hobby.

Replies:   Zom
Zom

@Dominions Son

you need a hobby

Awww! Not ANOTHER hobby ...

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Zom

Awww! Not ANOTHER hobby ...


Maybe he meant You need a Hobbit, as a little helper?

Replies:   Zom
Zom

@Ernest Bywater

You need a Hobbit, as a little helper

Do you mean as if I were Gandalf? I could be Gandalf. I am white enough ...

Dicrostonyx
Updated:

What is also interesting is that the story was originally posted in 2005, was listed as inactive for years, and has only recently been updated again.


But when I run across tags like that, I just put the story or whatever on my ignore list.


For me it depends partly on the length of the story, and whether the author comments on the reason for all of the codes. In general, I'd prefer if the official codes only show major themes of the overall work, with a comment that other tags may apply on a chapter by chapter basis.

Perhaps what we actually need is a tiered tag system of major tags (overall story themes), minor tags (elements in individual chapters or in passing/ off-camera), and warnings (elements which aren't integral to the plot, but are most likely to squick people: snuff, extreme violence, pedo, watersports & scat, etc.). This would allow authors to use multiple tags for search purposes while effictively indicating major story themes to prospective readers.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Dicrostonyx

What is also interesting is that the story was originally posted in 2005, was listed as inactive for years, and has only recently been updated again.


He was waiting for new codes to be added. :)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde


He was waiting for new codes to be added. :)


They can't be ones he asked for because Lazeez will either add them or tell you why he won't within a few days of you asking for them. But he may have needed some new tags to be added to decide where to take the story to next.

Replies:   cave jug
cave jug

@Ernest Bywater

Do you Ernest really think that there is a story to tell with all those codes listed? I surely would not spend a minute reading it. There are at least a dozen codes that would make me vomit my Christmas lunch.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@cave jug

Do you Ernest really think that there is a story to tell with all those codes listed?


I could see a saga length story with that many codes, but not much shorter than that. Most of my stories are lucky if they make six codes, the few that go past that are longer stories - over long novels or sagas.

Replies:   cave jug
smask

@Dominions Son

Maybe our host will comment with the story with the most codes.

The story being referenced, "Do As You're Told" http://storiesonline.net/s/47101 has to be a contender.

His "Caldwell Conspiracy" got 105 codes

Replies:   Zom
Zom

@smask

His "Caldwell Conspiracy" got 105 codes

Careful smask. If you count codes then apparently you need a hobby.

Replies:   Dominions Son  smask
docholladay

For me it tends to mean the writer is building what he or she considers a story around a set of codes instead of letting the codes actually reflect the story. Too many codes can actually cause me to skip a story regardless of the size.

Yet one that has the main codes with a notation at the end of the paragraph used to describe the story (other codes might apply to individual sections).
Might be read if the description catches my interest.

Codes are a great clue to the potential contents but when someone is just writing to fit codes the story tends to go down in quality fast in my opinion. Even the so-called flash story writers tend to limit the code usage. Its probably easier for them since their stories will tend to be short and completed before the upload process is even started. I think its much harder for a writer who tends to write longer stories to come up with all the correct codes to start with. So those should just state codes might need to be added or changed as the story develops. Like CW has pointed out even his stories tended to go in unplanned directions at times. I can just imagine what the headache would be trying to code those stories ahead of time would be. A writer should be willing to adjust the codes or place a notification at the start of a chapter where new codes should apply.

The idea of the codes in my opinion is to help a reader to avoid things which they will hate.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Zom

Careful smask. If you count codes then apparently you need a hobby.


You didn't just count codes. You went to the trouble of figuring out all the ones that were left out.

Replies:   Zom
Dominions Son

@docholladay

The idea of the codes in my opinion is to help a reader to avoid things which they will hate.


In my opinion, they are just as much to help readers find things which they like.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Dominions Son

In my opinion, they are just as much to help readers find things which they like.


They do both, but like I said the major factor in making the final choice is that descriptive paragraph or blurb given by the writer. The end of it can be used to state codes will be added as needed. Then the writer can give notice of changes in codes at the start of individual chapters where its relevant since some people will only look at the codes when first starting a story. For an ongoing story that means at some point the story may go in a direction or have a scene which needs a special code to be added. Even the best planned stories seem to be subject to change as they are written and edited as illustrated by both CW and Ernest in their writing and editing of a story before posting. Sometimes the story goes in an unplanned direction.

Zom

@Dominions Son

You didn't just count codes.

Perhaps, but counting the codes was the only thing you referenced when encouraging me to get a hobby. How should I know the remainder was intrinsically included?

The whole exercise took me about 10 minutes using an Excel spreadsheet. Maybe there are hobbies out there that can take up just 10 minutes, but I don't know of one.

smask
Updated:

@Zom


Careful smask. If you count codes then apparently you need a hobby.


I spent some seconds counting the comma separations in the list. (I were looking at the list of other stories by CJH. Usually I don't bother reading stories that have been sprinkled with lots of codes)

1. Copy and paste codes list into your text editor of choice. I use gedit.

2. Use the find function and press ','

3. Note the number of occurrences and increase one for fence post error.

Done.

Dominions Son

@Zom

How should I know the remainder was intrinsically included?


It was too much to quote.

Replies:   Zom
Dominions Son

@docholladay

They do both, but like I said the major factor in making the final choice is that descriptive paragraph or blurb given by the writer.


I frequently go looking for stories with particular types of content. When I do that, I always look at the codes first.

Zom

@Dominions Son

It was too much to quote.

So, inconvenience over accuracy. Again, how would I know that?

sejintenej

Analysing Zom's list of omissions (and I didn't check it) I am amazed at the list of common inclusions which the writer failed to include. For example other, girl, daughter, caution, father, military, mystery and five others which are so innocuous as to be normal in stories. OK, so he wouldn't need all those but if there is a female (which there is - I read a screen and decided that was enough for me)then I would have thought "girl" would be needed inclusion. She of course would have a father and so it goes on. Ergo, the author has failed to include at least some of the excluded types of content.
Yes, far too many types included but IMHO many are the wrong ones

Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

The end of it can be used to state codes will be added as needed.


And that ensures some people will not even consider the story until after it's finished, and some will have forgotten about it by then. I think it's best to include all the codes you intend to have in a story listed up front so people know what to expect.

Replies:   docholladay
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Zom


Maybe there are hobbies out there that can take up just 10 minutes, but I don't know of one.


Reading the memoirs of honest politicians is one such hobby. The books published to date were very thin.

docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

And that ensures some people will not even consider the story until after it's finished, and some will have forgotten about it by then.


That notice about possible code changes or additions is really for the writers who post as they write a story. Sure list all the planned code interactions up front (that is the honest way). But also acknowledge when codes might be needed. Like I said it can be done either in the blurb or as an opening paragraph for the chapter where the code happens. That would at least give the reader a chance to skip over the section which might offend them. Honesty is the key on both sides however for it to work. Like with at least one of CW's stories the characters and stories wound up having unplanned scenes and interactions. Sure they usually made for a better story overall. But since like you he posts only after completion of a story all applicable codes can be listed. The option of giving some notice or warnings is for the writers who post as they write each segment or chapter.

I will state that readers have to respect those codes and notices or the system will not work properly however.

Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

That would at least give the reader a chance to skip over the section which might offend them.


As a reader, I need to know at the start if I'm likely to hit a squick in the story, and thus not start it. A couple of years ago I started reading a story that seemed promising and the early chapters were good, but after several chapters the author added a major squick for me, and, from what others told me, the story went down that path for a few chapters. I don't know because I stopped reading the story when I hit the stuff I didn't like. The scoring vote is based on how you like the story, well, you can be sure that story dropped from being well liked to seriously disliked - it's the only 2 I've ever handed out, and that's because I don't give 1s. If he'd coded fully at the start I'd have not wasted time on it and I wouldn't have found the story unappealing. I also know I'm not the only one who felt that way about the story. I had been waiting to vote until the end, but when I stop reading because it's gone bad, well, that's the end of the story for me. Someone later told me the story dropped a full 2 points in scores during that period - I've not been back to look. Nor do I bother with any of that writers other works.

Replies:   sejintenej  docholladay
Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

I will state that readers have to respect those codes and notices or the system will not work properly however.


True, but the authors have to show a stronger respect for them as well.

To my mind, for you to say you'll be adding other codes later means one of the following:

1. You don't really know what you want to do with the story so you're leaving the door open - a bad way to approach a story.

2. You know what you want to do, but hope to fool people into investing time in your story before you hit them with the stuff you know will make them not start the story if you told them up front, so you delay it in the hope they'll stick with it out of inertia. - A worse way to approach treat your readers.

sejintenej

@Ernest Bywater

As a reader, I need to know at the start if I'm likely to hit a squick in the story, and thus not start it. A couple of years ago I started reading a story that seemed promising and the early chapters were good, but after several chapters the author added a major squick for me, and, from what others told me, the story went down that path for a few chapters.

Evidently the codes at the start were incomplete; hence the need for a warning that further codes may be added later. That way the reader is at least forewarned.
I admit I have never given a low score; if I don't like a story I simply back out but I see no reason to attack a story author because his or her prose is not to my taste. There are authors to whom I have given nines (I'm reading one now) who have written stories I disliked and discontinued - that doesn't mean they are bad but simply because tastes differ.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@sejintenej

hence the need for a warning that further codes may be added later.


That's a type of cheating, you may as well say "There's something coming you'll probably not like, but I want to cheat and not tell you yet." It the SoL authorship version of the old Bait and Switch scam. The score represents how much you like the story, well, that's what I voted on.

richardshagrin

Counting codes as a hobby. There is Morse Code, the dots and dashes one used in telegraphy. There is the Code of the West. Is Codeine a code? There is a lot of mathematics in computer coding. The CIA and other spy organizations use codes. The law is referred to as Codes, perhaps because they are hard to read. I have had a code in my nose where it was hard to pronounce some letters, like L. Baby its code outside. The Code of Honor. A codex. or is that Kotex?

Counting codes can be fun and challenging. Like a hobby.

docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

What you described is a major plot hole or change. That means that the writer has lied not only to the readers but to themselves.

The additions I mention usually only would affect a portion of a chapter or a few paragraphs. Yet add to the overall story or character development. Usually it looks like something which was completely unplanned yet fit into both the character development and the story itself.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

What you described is a major plot hole or change.


I'm not sure if that's the case, doc, once they say something like, "Further tags will be added later," they're saying I plan on going somewhere but I don't want to scare you off until after I get you hooked on the story. Well, that's how I see those entries now, especially after that experience.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

Understandable. Its all in how and why its done. Like I said Honesty is the key factor. The writer has to be as honest as possible about their story and its codes both with themselves and the readers.

As I have seen over the past 30 years, the online community is a lot like the old days. A man or woman's word is all they have to go on. When the trust factor is lost its almost impossible to regain it. Its funny how that factor has quietly come back in the online community.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@docholladay

Fiction is almost by definition, not True. Most of us expect fiction to contain lies. As long as the lies are entertaining, we keep on reading. There some authors who insist their stories are absolutely true, give or take a lie or two, but they have difficulty counting. Banadin. Most authors with more than one or two stories have some stories that are more entertaining than others. I trust them to keep trying to make them better, or at least the next chapter more entertaining, and thus a better lie. If I didn't trust them to do that, I would stop reading that story/author. To that extent your observation that a person's words are all they have to go on. I don't think word works, that would be a very short story.

I regain trust all the time. Most authors have some homonym/spelling/location of the hymen/grammar issues in their stories. Still I trust them to be entertaining on balance. There are some authors that write about zombies and vampires. I don't trust them and it will be difficult for them to regain my trust until they write about other lies.

The more codes there are, the harder it will be to process what they say. And the harder it gets for an author to figure out which codes apply. Is it MM or mm or Mm if the characters get together on their 18th birthdays? Or start the day before but keep going past midnight of the birthday? Life is full of choices. Sometimes you have to go with what you know about an author's previous work and trust that he is still entertaining, even if one of his characters is a little (or a lot) bent.

If his characters go swimming, it is coded watersports? If one pees in the pool? There is no P in our ool.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Not_a_ID
Wheezer

Has anyone tried to read the over-coded story we have been poking with sharp sticks? :D

Ernest Bywater

@Wheezer

Has anyone tried to read the over-coded story we have been poking with sharp sticks?


Nah, I got too tired trying to make my way through the codes.

docholladay

@Wheezer

I haven't even looked at it. Too many darn codes. I like a little surprise in what I read.

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

The more codes there are, the harder it will be to process what they say. And the harder it gets for an author to figure out which codes apply. Is it MM or mm or Mm if the characters get together on their 18th birthdays?


I disagree, that issue and how difficult it is to answer is exactly the same whether it is the only code or it's one of 20 codes.

docholladay

Regardless the major point is not to lie to either yourself as a writer or to your readers. That kind of action tends to backfire big time. They don't have to give a warning about possible additional codes, just don't lie about it. I just figure there has to be some flexibility but that will never lower the need for honesty about the story itself. Sure fiction is fantasy or lies in and of itself but that is the entertainment.

Now too many codes tends to be a turnoff for me personally but not everyone and that is only fair. At least I don't lie about it as a reader.

If something which isn't coded to start with turns out to be needed, then the writer should at least alert/warn the readers via a leading paragraph at a minimum in the chapter where it occurs. Don't try and sneak it past them. That will backfire in a hurry as Ernest pointed out earlier.

Of course every code which is relevant should be included. Its a pity that the coding can not be practically broken down into major and minor categories. But even I think that is impossible to do given the programming difficulties that has to be involved and Laz has enough headaches as it is keeping a good system working for us all.

sejintenej

@Wheezer

Has anyone tried to read the over-coded story we have been poking with sharp sticks? :D

Yes; so I had at least some idea before spouting.
I started with chapter 2 (ie when he had got into the swing of writing). Grammar - definitely not up to the doctorate standards being argued about here) and story might get a three, maybe four so I didn't continue.
I didn't see anything requiring the excess of overcoding - indeed in the bit I read I'm not sure what coding if any I would give it

garymrssn

It could be, the author is of the mind that any recognition is good recognition and is at this moment reading this thread and basking in his or her own version of glory.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@garymrssn

People, at least some of them, who post on these fora (the plural of forum, ah the benefits of taking Latin in High School) will argue about anything. If you can argue in postings rather than in person. One of the current items of interest is the color of the sky. While conventional wisdom tends toward blue, there is some evidence for other colors, green has been argued vehemently, and black, for night time, and smog colored for parts of California. Seattle has significant evidence, at least now and most of the winter, for gray.

Reading and possibly writing fiction makes it easy to lie, in an entertaining way, at least some of the time.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  garymrssn  Zom
Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

One of the current items of interest is the color of the sky.


I often see orange, white, and grey skies down here. Lot's of grey tending towards black during storms.

garymrssn

@richardshagrin

People, at least some of them, who post on these fora (the plural of forum, ah the benefits of taking Latin in High School) will argue about anything. If you can argue in postings rather than in person. One of the current items of interest is the color of the sky. While conventional wisdom tends toward blue, there is some evidence for other colors, green has been argued vehemently, and black, for night time, and smog colored for parts of California. Seattle has significant evidence, at least now and most of the winter, for gray.

Reading and possibly writing fiction makes it easy to lie, in an entertaining way, at least some of the time.

I agree.
I like to pretend on occasion that I can run with the big dogs even if all I gain is a shredded ear.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@garymrssn

I like to pretend on occasion that I can run with the big dogs even if all I gain is a shredded ear.


Emphasis mine.

I get the feeling that you are doing it wrong. If your ears are getting shredded, try running faster. :)

tppm
Updated:

Hypothetical:

I'm required to list a code, but I don't want to give the story away, so, what the story is about is included in the following, and list all the codes available.

richardshagrin

@tppm

Bad idea. At least in my opinion. Some people use codes to find stories they want to read. If you list a code and it isn't there in the story, you probably will get push-back, low votes, and negative comments that may influence other readers not to read your stories. The problem of the un-mentioned squick may be dwarfed by the problem of promised content not delivered.

Also, using all two hundred or so available codes will confuse people who don't care either way but may back away from that much data. TMI (too much information) can be just as bad as not enough.

Replies:   tppm  Capt Zapp
tppm

@richardshagrin

I didn't say it was a good idea, just a possible explanation.

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@tppm


Hypothetical:

I'm required to list a code, but I don't want to give the story away, so, what the story is about is included in the following, and list all the codes available.


is likely to see you on a lot of the never read lists.

edit to add:

I think more people use codes to find stories than to exclude them, thus by not coding you aren't letting them know the story is there. Also, if just having the code tag gives the story away, then I do have to wonder about the depth of plot in the story.

Capt Zapp

@richardshagrin

The problem of the un-mentioned squick may be dwarfed by the problem of promised content not delivered.


In my story, 'The Loser', I do not have two codes listed which may squick someone because the code refers to something that only happens once in the story. Instead, I use the notice box to inform the reader of what is about to happen and another notice to let them know the (possibly) offensive passage is done, thus giving them the opportunity to skip over the material and continue the story. There is enough information in the notice to let them know what occurred without them having to read the details.

I haven't had any complaints, and my score did not drop when the chapters were posted, so I assume the readers do not have any problems with me using this method.

Zom

@richardshagrin

these fora (the plural of forum, ah the benefits of taking Latin in High School)

Hmmm. Perhaps because an on-line 'forum' is a specialist term then it can take the regular plural 'forums'. Like computer mouses. Just a thought ...

richardshagrin

@Zom

Somewhere, maybe on this forum, we went through data as the plural for datum. You are right, sometimes plurals follow the Latin, and sometimes they don't. I haven't seen recta as the plural for rectum. It may have something to do with how word users follow what the Romans did. Legions were armed with a throwing spear called a pilum. When wargamers get together and talk about how our units are armed we don't talk about pilums, we discuss pila. I am sure there are other examples that go either way, with an s added more frequently than um changing to an a. Perhaps we should appeal to the ultimate authority, Lazeez, and inquire which plural he prefers, Fora or Forums. Forums sounds kind of like Forms to me. Fora might work better to distinguish the difference a plural makes. Helps make conversation sound more educated, assuming knowing Latin is more educated.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

Somewhere, maybe on this forum, we went through data as the plural for datum.


Except in English usage, data is a mass noun and as such is always grammatically treated as singular.

I haven't seen recta as the plural for rectum.


Probably because no one has more than one and as such, only a proctologist would ever have cause to use recta. :-)

Replies:   Zom
Zom
Updated:

@Dominions Son

ever have cause to use recta

Having his huge apparatus in her rectum recta?

sejintenej

@Zom

these fora (the plural of forum, ah the benefits of taking Latin in High School)
Hmmm. Perhaps because an on-line 'forum' is a specialist term then it can take the regular plural 'forums'. Like computer mouses.


OK so what is the singular of museii? It should be Museums. My (afore mentioned grammar book states very clearly that forum always becomes for
ums just as stratum becomes scrota. It admits that nouns ending in "um" are irregular with some allowing either ending but some having definitely specified endings. There are seven pages of small letters on the endings alone

Replies:   Zom
Zom

@sejintenej

stratum becomes scrota

So next time I am chatting to the lads, I should call their enclosure stratum? :-)

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Zom

I think there is pretty good chance scrota is the plural of scrotum. Scrotums sounds too much like the tablet, tums.

cave jug
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

When I asked if there was a story with this many codes I was filtering through my preferred selection. I am very prejudiced here,( as we all are, otherwise, why would any of us take any notice of them) but I would be vomiting just by reading these codes, yet alone that story. So to my way of thinking, any author puts a bit of themselves into a story they write. If true, then a pretty sick mind can come up with a scenario containing them all.

Am I the bad guy by being prejudiced this way? I should think not.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@cave jug


Am I the bad guy by being prejudiced this way? I should think not.


No, you aren't. We all have our individual quirks. Mine is I think politicians should be fair and honest while doing what's best for the country and the people - but I know that's never going to happen.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

- but I know that's never going to happen.


I was starting to think you might be delusional, until you got to that bit at the end.

richardshagrin

@Ernest Bywater

Never is a long time. If you are willing to agree that elected officials are politicians, then George Washington was a politician. Many people, perhaps most, would think George was fair and honest while doing what's best for the country and the people.

Of course people at that point were white, Christian (at least by heritage) males.
"Indians" were not people. African American slaves were three fifths of a person, for purposes of representation in congress, and mostly for no other purpose. Abraham Lincoln was also a politician. Again a lot of people would consider him fair and honest. Maybe not the people who call the American Civil War the War of Northern Aggression. I recognize the longer the career in politics the harder it is to find politicians who qualify. But I think there are some.

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

Many people, perhaps most, would think George was fair and honest while doing what's best for the country and the people.


Many people, perhaps most(myself included), weren't alive then and have no idea of what George Washington was like or how honest he was beyond sanitized versions of events created for grade/high school text books combined with the equivalent of urban legends.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Dominions Son


Abraham Lincoln was also a politician. Again a lot of people would consider him fair and honest.


Again, a lot of people weren't alive then and have no idea of what Abraham Lincoln was like or how honest he really was beyond sanitized versions of events created for grade/high school text books combined with the equivalent of urban legends.

From what I have read, Abraham Lincoln was a fence sitter on the issue of slavery / abolition right up until the southern states tried to secede from the union and bullets started to fly. That can hardly be described as an honest politician position.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

George was fair and honest while doing what's best for the country and the people


That's debatable. According to some of the reports from the time the reason Arnold switch back to being with the English was it was the only way he could save his troops from death because Washington hung Arnold and his men out to dry and refused to provide them with help, supplies, or permission to withdraw from an untenable situation. And from all accounts it came about because Washington and Arnold were in competition for another position Washington wanted. Also, Washington didn't like Arnold and felt it was OK to screw him. _ If I had my computer with all the old research I'd tell you where to find the accounts of that from some of Washington's own supporters, but it's current still with the cops.

Richard, if they're in an elected position and still fair, honest, and concerned about the people and the country, they aren't politicians, they're statesmen.

Replies:   richardshagrin
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son


From what I have read, Abraham Lincoln was a fence sitter on the issue of slavery / abolition right up until the southern states tried to secede from the union and bullets started to fly. That can hardly be described as an honest politician position.


From what I've read, the only reason Abe came off the fence was a year or so into the war one of his senior advisers pointed out a few major issues they had:

1. Not enough people to provide the logistics to support the army in the field properly;

2. Not enough people to provide the logistical support to feed, house, and clothe all the slaves they captured;

3. Not enough wagons to do both.

4. Not enough budget to do both.

He then pointed out if they freed the slave then he can employ them as the labour for the logistics to supply the army and let them look after themselves as well as cutting a huge cost out of the budget. After a lot of discussion Abe agreed and it was made law.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

From what I've read, the only reason Abe came off the fence was a year or so into the war one of his senior advisers pointed out a few major issues they had:


I'd don't think I have seen that accusation specifically. There are a lot of claims that the Emancipation Proclamation was cynical attempt to hamper the CSA by getting slaves to flee north and fight for the Union.

That said, what you describe is certainly not contradicted by or contradictory to what I have read.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Not_a_ID
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Dominions Son


I'd don't think I have seen that accusation specifically. There are a lot of claims that the Emancipation Proclamation was cynical attempt to hamper the CSA by getting slaves to flee north and fight for the Union.


I had the website hot linked in the computer the cops have. But, essentially, the fellow responsible for the departments for organising the movement of food and freight and seeing to it Washington got fed had a major bitch to Abe about the costs and the lack of people to do what was needed with the limited resources. He threatened to walk away from the job unless he was given approval to employ the captured slaves to do the work. Initially limited approval was given to employ them around Washington. He kept the pressure up to the point Lincoln was thinking along the lines of emancipation, and then the situation turned around and gave him the chance to do do.

edit to add: I did hundreds of hours of research on the US Civil War for a story several years ago, and I found it then. I have dozens of URL on it in the computer that got taken away. It was urgent enough to take it away, but they haven't got the people to look at it yet, and that was back in July.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

It was urgent enough to take it away, but they haven't got the people to look at it yet, and that was back in July.


Which July? :)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Dominions Son


Which July? :)


July 2015

edit to add: they said it should be back in 2 to 3 months - yeah, right.

richardshagrin

@Ernest Bywater

I always heard a statesman was a dead politician.

Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

The Emancipation Proclamation had a large helping of international politics in play as well. Also of note, and frequently ignored, is that it did not free all slaves, as not all of the state's with legalized slavery rebelled. It only freed the slaves in states which were in rebellion from the union. (It also created grey areas in regards Union controlled portions of the Confederacy)

The International aspect on things is that the Confederacy had been seeking assistance from Britain(as the primary nation they did business with outside the U.S.), and to a lesser degree France(the two still being rivals to some degree).

Thing is the Brits were not big fans of slavery in general, and their Royal Navy, along with the U.S. Navy in the years leading up to the Civil War had done a lot of work to stop the slave trade with Africa. Which was a big reason for their still being on the fence years into the war. Word was they were leaning towards supporting the South, as they'd been doing a decent job of winning the battles so far. (Easy to back a winning horse)

Then the Union starts to win, and Lincoln jumps on the opportunity to change the perception of the war while he can do so from a position of strength. He issues the Emancipation Proclamation which rallies the Abolitionists and the freed/escaped slaves in the North, and changes the nature of the war as far as Britain was concerned. It went from a war ostensibly over state's rights and self-determination, something they could rationalize support for, into being a conflict over slavery, something they strongly disapproved of. Which effectively removed them from the board for the South, and probably likewise played another international role as well.

The Brits were more than happy to stay out of it and let the Americans sort it out themselves after that. But it had to leave other nations wary of actively siding with the Confederacy, out of concern the Brits might take that as cause to side with the Union and declare war on them.

Of course, that also largely plays on the biggest reason the Monroe Doctrine was so successful in the 19th Century was that Great Britain thought it was a great idea, and wasn't above providing assistance in enforcing if it was needed.

Replies:   Perv Otaku
Not_a_ID

@richardshagrin

Getting back on topic...

The more codes there are, the harder it will be to process what they say. And the harder it gets for an author to figure out which codes apply. Is it MM or mm or Mm if the characters get together on their 18th birthdays? Or start the day before but keep going past midnight of the birthday? Life is full of choices. Sometimes you have to go with what you know about an author's previous work and trust that he is still entertaining, even if one of his characters is a little (or a lot) bent.

If his characters go swimming, it is coded watersports? If one pees in the pool? There is no P in our ool.


If someone takes a shower or engages in shower sex while in the nude does that warrant the nudism tag? That tag gets funny how some authors have used/abused it, as it seems some have taken any nudity to be the same thing as nudism, and have flagged their stories as such. (Which isn't to the SOL specification of happening in a nudist or naturist setting.. Even considering the various types of @home nudists)

Now I understand that personal interpretations vary widely on the term, but I would tend to say a nudism flag on a story because a character is naked somewhere doing something that the vast majority of the (sane) population normally does naked is perhaps overkill? I mean yeah, doing laundry, household chores, cooking, etc in the buff obviously qualifies for a nudism flag, unless exhibitionism applies as part of sex play in which case it turns grey as it can become both... But showering in the buff while in a bathroom(where the only person who may reasonably be expected to enter it while in use is a sexual partner)? Getting naked for the purpose of having sex in a private room? Seriously?

There are a couple other hot codes in use by SOL that depending on the community or person involved becomes highly subjective or simply weird and possibly not to the terminology that community would use in relation to how SOL defined it.

Is "transformation" for things like werewolves and vampires(which have codes of their own as well), or is it for people who simply undergo a radical and dramatic shift in their life or world view? (SOL definition says "physical change by un-natural means" which means a number of authors have misused the tag as they went for life changing, not body changing)

What about the transgendered/genderbending stuff? Crossdressing and/or sissification is one thing where the physical gender remains mostly unchanged but the expression or presentation of it changes. (I do see crossdressing has its own code now that I've looked at the list rather than memory alone, so I guess there's possibly a legacy issue there)

Meanwhile we also have things like futanari (covered largely under hermaphrodite or shemale) out there or full on physical gender change(which the SOL code definitions say transgender should be, rather than the use it has seen as a catch-all for all things gender confused) in the mix as well. But even then, with a more realistic transexual story, the person will be on hormonal treatment regiments, which then gives us the drugs hot code in a not intended manner(as per SOL definition it is the unknowing use of the drugs by one party). Likewise for characters undergoing treatments where medications are involved for other reasons, which an over cautious author may flag in error or deliberately as the case may be. (I would tend to believe that counter to the SOL definition for the Drugs code, some authors would be justified in using the code for drug abuse(knowing use) as well.)

Body modification can get silly too. Pierced body parts(such as ears) technically qualify, but it can range up to talking about breast augmentation/reduction or liposuction, amputations to the creation of new limbs or appendages to a wholesale change in a persons physiology and biology.

Even furry can get odd, as some people just really like the feel of fur, while others wish they(and others?) had fur(note, this grouping doesn't fully fit the SOL criteria for the tag, but I'd bet there are furry tagged stories where the fur involved is an item or costume). To anthropomorphic things like Talespin and Ducktales or Star Wars with the Wookies and the Ewoks.(Which just led me to the thought of Wookie sex, and found the thought disturbing enough to share the misery) Which isn't to forget another Japanese import, the catgirl.

I guess in some ways it might be a fun challenge to try to meet the criteria most would use for as many hot codes as possible without actually using them in such a way as to warrant the hot code. Such as a (bisexual) Star Wars fan who likes to cosplay as Chewbacca(furry), who is a diabetic that requires regular insulin injections(drugs, needles) who works either at a tattoo parlor or at a medical practice specialized in plastic surgery(more needles and body modification, if going the medical route, an incorrect option for drugs as well as Doctor/Nurse becoming an (actually correct) option as per SOL hot code criteria if the character is a doctor or nurse)

But getting back on track, we can get to another side of the issue with the codes. Some people are looking for specific codes, and in some cases will deal with a heaping pile of squick to see what they're seeking. So sometimes that excessive coding is an author trying to essentially google bomb the SOL search engine. They may legitimately intend to properly use those codes at some point, but never get there, or haven't made it there yet. Which creates a two sided problem for SOL.

They want it to be easy for you to find stories that have _____ in it, but it gets frustrating for users who read a story looking for _____ and never find it because the author has not yet posted the part(s) that contain it. Likewise you have the people who do not want ____ and will go to great lengths to avoid it, and would prefer to be warned about it before they bother to spend time reading it.

There also are legitimate cases where hot codes can spoil storylines, an incest flagged story with mother/daughter/son tagged on when dealing with a protagonist boasting a family with exactly that corresponding composition doesn't leave much doubt as to where it might be going. Although the incestuous family bringing on the codes might be their neighbors I guess. Other codes like Space can potentially be spoilers in some other cases, although I would generally agree their overall spoilerishness(new word) is probably fairly low, and in the case of something like the Space tag, that kind of ties to the genre involved in my book, so it's makes for a good thing to know up front.

Tagging thing up front well in advance to the content happening keeps the squicky crowd happy. Tagging for things that aren't there frustrates people seeking the same tagged content.

Enforcing tags on incomplete works in general is likely to frustrate authors for numerous reasons, and the squick factor crowd in particular, while making looking for specific things easier.

Almost one of those "if it could be done over" items for SOL. Let the author advise what tags are expected in a story being posted, track what tags have currently been used in a story(possibly on a per chapter basis? Sounds like a nice premium member feature) And then let the users filter out as they desire, or seek it as they desire, maybe with or without a spoiler filter for those seeking(what they can find now, vs might find in the course of due time). I'd tend to think the ones seeking to avoid certain content would just as soon be "spoiled" as to the nature of the surprise up front. It also would make code definition enforcement more viable for the authors that want to drop a storycode bomb.

Somehow I think working it in now would be a large undertaking even if SOL didn't try to retroactively work through the 33k+ works posted here. Restructuring an established database is not fun. Manually reprocessing that much material would probably make most people want to end their own life, even getting authors to volunteer to do the work on their own stuff would create a pile of work if it passes through a moderation queue.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Not_a_ID

Maybe voluntary codes is a way to go. The author can use any or all of them if he/she wishes. And not use any if they want. If none are used a "possible squicks" code might apply. Or like no sex, minimal sex, some sex, much sex we can have a no squicks (aka, Fine Stories), minimal squicks, some squicks, and much squicks categories. If you read a story coded much squicks you shouldn't complain or one bomb the story if you read something you don't like. Instead of roughly a dozen different kinds of incest tag use just "much squicks". Rather than nudity, water sports, at least two kinds of BDSM (regular and light) and perhaps dozens of other possibilities, if the author warns of Much Squicks nobody should get mad. I don't know if searching for "Much Squicks" will be as satisfactory as looking for individual kinks, authors can add any such items they think their fans will want to search for, but at least the warnings will be up for people to avoid stories that have needles and more.

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

The author can use any or all of them if he/she wishes. And not use any if they want. If none are used a "possible squicks" code might apply. Or like no sex, minimal sex, some sex, much sex we can have a no squicks (aka, Fine Stories), minimal squicks, some squicks, and much squicks categories.


Where does that leave the readers who want to look for a particular kink?

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

authors can add any such items they think their fans will want to search for


If an author wants to list 216 tags so his/her story will be found by anyone searching for a particular tag, they can. Authors who don't want to go through that process can just say "Much squick" and simplify the process. People who have squicks will not read the story. The tough one to classify is the minimal squick or some squick category. For minimal it might be easier for an author to list the one or two or perhaps a half dozen tags that people might want to avoid or search for. Some squicks might be more trouble than its worth, adding that category and then a couple of dozen tags defeats the saving electrons reason that having "n squicks" is designed to eliminate.

Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

Maybe voluntary codes is a way to go.


Not an option. Years ago there were many forum posts and SoL blog posts about authors leaving off codes that cause squicks. That sort of crap can destroy the site, so the codes need to be there.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

Which also ignores the history for many of the "hot codes" or squick/fetish tags that SOL appropriated from the UseNet groups that specialized in sex stories.

The squick is ultimately the deciding factor for most groups, either warn them of what they're about to encounter, or expect drama to follow when they find something they don't like. At least if a warning is given, they can be told to get lost should they go off about the thing they were explicitly warned about, and promptly ignored by anyone that matters where it concerns that work.

BlinkReader

For me as plain vanilla reader it's very simple:

- If I see story with all these codes I just IGNORE it.
And this I am suggesting to all other users - you are not going to miss a lot using this approach.

Fast and economical approach, isn't it?

Not_a_ID

But what about a story about an (Alien) who looks like a (white male), who periodically undergoes a (transformation) and usually travels with either a (black female) or a (white female) "traveling companion."
He travels on a vehicle that allows (time travel) as well as trips through (space). Further, encounters with (mind control), (esp), (werewolves), (robots), and the (paranormal) may occur. (historical) events may be involved, a (mystery) which also involves a (crime) could be stumbled upon. Sometimes you might find them at a (military) facility during a (war), (royalty) may become involved in the course of things which naturally tends to lead to some sort of (politics) going on.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

But what about a story about an (Alien) who looks like a (white male), who periodically undergoes a (transformation) and usually travels with either a (black female) or a (white female) "traveling companion."
He travels on a vehicle that allows (time travel) as well as trips through (space). Further, encounters with (mind control), (esp), (werewolves), (robots), and the (paranormal) may occur. (historical) events may be involved, a (mystery) which also involves a (crime) could be stumbled upon. Sometimes you might find them at a (military) facility during a (war), (royalty) may become involved in the course of things which naturally tends to lead to some sort of (politics) going on.


No one would read such a preposterous story. :)

PS

On a serious note: Why isn't there any Dr Who fan fiction here? Especially erotic fan fiction? Surely a man who is more than 900 years old has gotten laid once or twice.

BlinkReader

@Dominions Son

Do not worry - there are some Dr Who fans here!
One for sure, and other should denounce themselves :D

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

On a serious note: Why isn't there any Dr Who fan fiction here? Especially erotic fan fiction? Surely a man who is more than 900 years old has gotten laid once or twice.


From the way he presented when I did catch an episode, I was sure he was a eunich! Always has a pretty girl on hand and never makes a pass or inappropriate comment, he's got to be castrated!

Replies:   Capt Zapp
Capt Zapp

@Ernest Bywater

Always has a pretty girl on hand and never makes a pass or inappropriate comment,


Maybe, after 900 years, he's lost interest... 'been there, done that, got thousands of shirts...'

Replies:   tppm
Wheezer

@Dominions Son

No one would read such a preposterous story. :)


Actually, sounds a lot like Wolves & Dragons of the Blood. :P

Replies:   BlinkReader
BlinkReader

@Wheezer

And for some of us "Wolves & Dragons of the Blood" has some appeal :D

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer

@BlinkReader

And for some of us "Wolves & Dragons of the Blood" has some appeal :D

No problem! There's quite a few preposterous stories I like. ;^)

BlinkReader

@Wheezer

Thank good for small miracles - i was afraid that I was really lonely and strange bird in this :D

tppm

@Capt Zapp

Bare in mind that Doctor Who's target audience is primary schoolers "hiding behind the couch" and many of the writers, producers, and actors watched it when they were in primary school themselves.

(Not to mention that BBC Television is kinda a little prudish, even outside the children's programming department.)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Wheezer

No problem! There's quite a few preposterous stories I like. ;^)


My comment:

No one would read such a preposterous story. :)


Was a joke. The comment to which I replied was a clear description of Dr. Who, which is very popular. (I watch the current series on BBCA).

But the way he described it, in such blunt terms, I does sound preposterous.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

Dr. Who was the series I went with because it had the best chance of being reasonably popular and also hitting many of the story codes SOL has, even without actually getting to the sex part. I think I probably could have stretched for a couple more if I thought on it longer.

Although I guess Star Trek may be able to tag quite a few as well(particularly racial codes), I think Dr Who still nets more codes in just a few seasons... Unless you merge all of the Trek franchises together for a story code mashup.

Perv Otaku

@Not_a_ID

Then the Union starts to win, and Lincoln jumps on the opportunity to change the perception of the war while he can do so from a position of strength. He issues the Emancipation Proclamation which rallies the Abolitionists and the freed/escaped slaves in the North, and changes the nature of the war as far as Britain was concerned. It went from a war ostensibly over state's rights and self-determination, something they could rationalize support for, into being a conflict over slavery, something they strongly disapproved of.


Perhaps ironically for the South, since they started the war in response to the election of Lincoln out of fear that he would act to abolish slavery rather than any actual action do to so. He was a known opponent of slavery, but I suspect that as President absent the war he wouldn't have been able to justify or affect any kind of drastic, immediate, or sweeping end of slavery. For the south it was a war for states' rights, but the primary right they were concerned about was indeed slavery. For Lincoln and the north it was primarily a war to keep the union together rather than to end slavery, though he certain took the opportunity to do so when it was advantageous.

Ernest Bywater

@tppm

Bare in mind that Doctor Who's target audience is primary schoolers


Don't do that in real life, you could get into big trouble with the law for treating young kids like that!

Replies:   tppm
tppm

@Ernest Bywater

I assume from this response that I used, or is that sued, the wrong homonym of bear/bare.

Ernest Bywater

@tppm

the wrong homonym of bear/bare.


ayep

Dominions Son

@tppm

I assume from this response that I used, or is that sued, the wrong homonym of bear/bare.


Going after young kids with a bear would get you in a whole different kind of legal trouble. Especially if the bear is hungry and the kids are tasty.

Replies:   Capt Zapp
Capt Zapp

@Dominions Son

Going after young kids with a bear would get you in a whole different kind of legal trouble. Especially if the bear is hungry and the kids are tasty.


Especially if they are all bare.

richardshagrin
Updated:

@Capt Zapp

Unbearable. Or if they don't wear any clothing, you can't bare them because they are already bare.
Unbareable.

tppm

@Capt Zapp

Better for the bears that way, no choking hazard from the clothes.

Parthenogenesis

@Wheezer

I'm always wary when the list of codes is longer than the story.

BlinkReader

Oh, please,
Has anyone of you found one good story with "massive" list of codes?

I haven't...

Replies:   Not_a_ID
sejintenej

@Capt Zapp

Especially if they are all bare.

Aren't bears always bare?

Replies:   tppm  Dominions Son
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@BlinkReader


Oh, please,

Has anyone of you found one good story with "massive" list of codes?


I think so, it's a difficult criteria to check for though.

Although typically the long list of codes is due to the story itself being long. So if you coded any particular chapter or page, the list is short, but when taken as a whole(or hole for some), the list is rather large.

Of course there also is the matter of some authors not including codes for "one off" events unless they're going to be part of an ongoing thing(aftermath of a violent rape for example)

Replies:   BlinkReader
BlinkReader

@Not_a_ID

Can you find just one long and good story with "massive" list of codes?
I could not ...

In good longer stories may be a more of codes, but not all of them ...

tppm

@sejintenej

Aren't bears always bare?


All the bears I've ever seen, or seen pictures of, have been wearing fur coats.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@tppm

All the bears I've ever seen, or seen pictures of, have been wearing fur coats.


Except so circus bears and other performing bears are sometimes in cotton coats and the like.

Dominions Son

@sejintenej

Aren't bears always bare?


No, they wear fur coats.

Replies:   solitude
docholladay

My question when I run across a huge list of codes is whether or not the story is written to utilize the codes or if the codes actually can possibly fit the story. Maybe that is why I skip them as a rule.

solitude

@Dominions Son

No, they wear fur coats.


Not all of them, according to the nursery rhyme:

Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear,
Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair,
Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't fuzzy,
was he?

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin
Updated:

@solitude

Fuzzy Wuzzy was a reviewer. His reviews weren't fuzzy. He wrote at last count 660 reviews.

Reviews by fuzzywuzzy
About fuzzywuzzy:
I love to read, even the wrapping on a roll of toilet paper ;-} I believe I am fair but I'm not impartial. To me, not only must a story be well written but editing and proof reading must be done well. I can forgive a lot, but I expect an Author to improve with age like a good bottle of wine.
I'm married, no kids, alas, retired, Canadian, and my wife thinks I'm getting just a teensy bit senile.
I/we have a Papillon who is very smart, three cats, one of which is a Maine Coon, and twelve Koi; believe me when I say a Koi Pond is a hole in the ground to fill with good hard cash!
Oh, I'd also give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
p.s. My basic aim is not to edit, but to proof read your stories so as to help you give more pleasure and enjoyment to your readers.

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