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Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

Recent blog by Catman

richardshagrin

"One reader took the time to tell me the many things that were wrong with my stories and I'm going to tell you the same thing I told him. If you don't like it don't read it."

My response was "If you don't like how readers respond here, don't post it." Then I asked him how he felt about that instruction. Not loved, right?

If SOL isn't a place to get feedback, positive and negative, what is it? If I don't read a story, how can I tell if I like it or not?

The floor is open for discussion. Fortunately we don't need to worry about everyone talking at the same time.

ustourist

@richardshagrin

I think it depends if the criticism is constructive or just offensive.
That is even a problem on this forum with one participant continually stating their point of view as fact and challenging statements made by others in a confrontational way, but rarely giving constructive criticism or comment.

I think if authors take the time to write and submit something, however bad it may be, it should still be treated with respect.

Wheezer

I suppose it depends on what the reader was finding 'wrong.' If the reader was just expressing an opinion because he didn't like the way the story was going, then catman is justified. If, OTOH, the reader was pointing out spelling & grammar errors, homophones, plot inconsistencies - in other words, catman's bad writing - then catman is one of those arrogant assholes that I'll add to my 'Do Not Bother to Read' list.

Replies:   KinkyWinks
Switch Blayde

@richardshagrin

If you can't take criticism, being an author is the wrong hobby/profession.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

Criticism is one thing.

Complaints about coded story content is in my opinion something very different.

For the latter, "I you don't like it, don't read it" is the politest possible response.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

"One reader took the time to tell me the many things that were wrong with my stories and I'm going to tell you the same thing I told him. If you don't like it don't read it."

My response was "If you don't like how readers respond here, don't post it." Then I asked him how he felt about that instruction. Not loved, right?

If SOL isn't a place to get feedback, positive and negative, what is it? If I don't read a story, how can I tell if I like it or not?


What other response is there to people who send email to the author complaining that they were squiked by coded for story content?

Replies:   Slutsinger
Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

Criticism is one thing.


A published author I know (published through Penguin and distributed in many countries) is from Ireland. She got a negative review on Amazon from a reader who complained about typos. What he called typos was British English spelling. The negative review was unjust, but that's the life of an author.

Replies:   Dominions Son
KinkyWinks

Here is the reply I sent to Richard




Today at 4:32 PM

The only problem I have with the grammar police is, I am 70 years old, I don't know an adjective from a verb and don't want to learn. I never wrote over a paragraph at a time until I wrote my first story here. If I did what the grammar boys wanted me to do, I wouldn't live long enough to learn it. Most of the grammar guys were literature majors or at least leaned that direction. I was a Soldier, an Aircraft Mechanic, a Toolmaker, and a Machinist. I didn't learn what they did because I didn't want to. I am sure that I am better at what I chose to learn than they are but, I would never find fault with them for machining something they wanted to make just because I could have done it better, and point out all their mistakes. If they came to me and asked, I would tell them what they wanted to know. If they had fun doing it, I think I would be happy for them. And, I will say again, if they don't like how it is wrote, don't read it, nobody is forcing them to be exposed to my piss poor writing and I do give warnings.

Thanks for taking the time to try and convert me to the educated side of writing. I'll pass.

Dennis

Replies:   richardshagrin
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

The negative review was unjust, but that's the life of an author.


Again: Actual criticism, even if unjustified is one thing.

A response along the lines of "Why did you include X in the story? X is just icky." Is an entirely different animal.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

A response along the lines of "Why did you include X in the story? X is just icky." Is an entirely different animal.


My answer to that is simply, "That's the story I wrote."

richardshagrin

@KinkyWinks

I maintain I am not a Grammar Nazi. I have been a homonym policeman. Some authors don't mind suggestions, others do. On SOL I am a reviewer, not talented enough to be an author. I am 71, so there. My last English Class was in the early 1960s as a freshman in college. Most of what I comment about I learned reading stories, many of them on SOL. I liked the Boat stories and don't recall any significant grammar issues.

There is support for your position to tell critics not to read your stories. Its possible some of what you perceive as criticism might be helpful. I didn't see the correspondence. I guess my point was SOL readers, unless you turn off your email, are likely to give feedback. Not all of it will be "I loved the story."

Please keep writing, even if sometimes unfair criticism results. Almost all of us readers want you to succeed and write wonderful stories, possibly even without any flaws. To err is human, to forgive against company policy.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

Claiming your too old to learn new things is a lousy argument. While you don't have to attend university to write, one should always focus on improving one's craft. Saying you're too slow just means you don't care how good your writing is.

However, there's no argument to "I find X disgusting".

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

Please keep writing, even if sometimes unfair criticism results.


Yes but for certain complaints, specifically complaints a long the lines of "I find X disgusting" there are only two ways to react productively.

1. Ignore it.

2. Find a polite way to tell the complainer to fuck off.

Replies:   tppm
tppm

@Dominions Son

Or, with option two, a non-polite way, e.g. "Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if it's wrong."

KinkyWinks

"Saying you're too slow just means you don't care how good your writing is"
Yes Crumbly, that is exactly what I said, I don't care. I did teach myself how to type, I use two fingers and hunt every letter.

"2. Find a polite way to tell the complainer to fuck off"

Dominions Son, I thought I did.

Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

Good storytellers with bad writing skills need the services of an editor & proofreader. Don't want to do that and don't give a shit? That's not writing, that's masturbating with a keyboard. Like the other kind of masturbation, you should keep it to yourself.

Replies:   tppm  KinkyWinks  Slutsinger
KinkyWinks

OK Wheezer, why don't you point out all the mistakes in my latest story as I am unable to spot them.

Replies:   Wheezer
Dominions Son

@KinkyWinks

"2. Find a polite way to tell the complainer to fuck off"

Dominions Son, I thought I did.


The two options I presented are for complaints about story content, not complaints about typos, grammar issues, or poor writing generally.

Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

I'm neither an editor nor a proofreader. Thus my suggestion for those (universal 'you') who cannot, or will not be bothered to correct their own work to get one. Those with a 'Fuck Off' attitude toward producing well-written stories that have reasonably correct spelling and grammar tend to trigger my own 'Fuck Off' attitude in response.

Replies:   KinkyWinks
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@KinkyWinks

"Saying you're too slow just means you don't care how good your writing is"


Every author has their own goals for writing.
1) Some want to make a profession out of it.
2) Some want to be the best they can be.
3) Some want simply to write a story not caring how well it's written.

It's unfair to hold someone in the 3rd category to the same standards as the other two. Saying that, I go back to my previous comment. If you're going to be an author (that's a writer who makes his stories available to the public), you're going to get criticized. It's inevitable. How the author responds defines his character.

KinkyWinks, here's a tip for using this forum. You don't have to copy and paste someone's words as a quote. One of the nice things Lazeez did was to allow you to highlight the area you want to quote (which is what I did above) before clicking on the reply thing. The system puts the highlighted quote it in a shaded area.

Replies:   KinkyWinks
KinkyWinks

@Wheezer

I keep telling people that I am not capable of writing better than I do. It is the best I can do, I can't do any more and if you don't want to read it, then don't. I know you people write better than I do, and I'm happy for you. I'm not trying to take anything away from you. I'm not trying to get you to write your stories the way I do. Why in the hell do you want me to do it your way? If people see that you are the better writer they will read your stories and give you high scores, and tell you how wonderful you are. That's fine, I like many of the stories posted here, and most of the advise I get on this forum is good, most of the people treat me good. I just don't want to be hounded to death because I spell "SHIT" with three T's

Replies:   Wheezer
KinkyWinks

@Switch Blayde

Thanks Switch.

Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

I keep telling people that I am not capable of writing better than I do. It is the best I can do, I can't do any more and if you don't want to read it, then don't.


Are editor & proofreader words or concepts you do not understand - or are you just being obstinate? Even the authors on the NY Times best seller's list use editors & proofreaders. Here on SOL there are a number of volunteer editors and proofreaders. All you have to do is ask. Why would you deliberately give your readers and potential future readers the middle finger? Athletes need coaches & trainers to perform at their best. Writers need editors & proofreaders. Everyone can use a little help, and here on SOL it is offered freely.

Replies:   KinkyWinks
KinkyWinks

@Wheezer

Are editor & proofreader words or concepts you do not understand - or are you just being obstinate?

Do you fail to understand that it is a story I wrote, not an editor. If you can't write without one, that's fine, makes me no difference. I'm writing my stories and again I say, if you don't want to read them, then don't. If you don't understand that, then understand this. It is my god damned story and I will write it the way I want it. You go write yours and leave me alone.

Replies:   Wheezer  tppm
Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

Do you fail to understand that it is a story I wrote, not an editor. If you can't write without one, that's fine, makes me no difference. I'm writing my stories and again I say, if you don't want to read them, then don't. If you don't understand that, then understand this. It is my god damned story and I will write it the way I want it. You go write yours and leave me alone.


It's times like this that I wish SOL had a block feature like FB. I guess this just reinforces the saying that ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is forever. Also, sayings about getting a mule's attention and leading a horse to water comes to mind. I'm 63. If I'm like this at 70, please take away my access to the internet and make certain my access to others is restricted and monitored.

Wheezer

I had to take a minute and go back to the original post in this thread. I looked up Catman, not recalling any stories by the author, and realized that I've read several of his stories. Note: several... Nothing wrong enough in technique to make me not read & enjoy them. I cannot say that for some authors. Many get ignored within the first few paragraphs. Nobody is perfect and there's not an author on SOL that could not benefit at least a little from the help and advice of editors and proofreaders. Hubris is an ugly thing. Too bad...

KinkyWinks

I don't think you even read the story because there is not that much wrong with it. If you do read it and find some error that will cause the earth to stop spinning, then please post it here and we will find someone with the qualifications, to tell me what is wrong.

richardshagrin
Updated:

I think extra T s to "Shit" is creative and at least as useful to the extra letters added to vocalizations when orgasm occurs in stories. I assume SHITTT smells worse or is more emphatic than plain old shit.

On the bright side, no unusual regional dialog makes understanding what is being said by his characters difficult. Unlike some authors who insist on cockney or western American "cowboys." An occasional y'all adds color and most of us believe we understand it is a regional plural for you. Now yawl is some kind of boat but I can never remember what makes it different. More masts, or how the sails are arranged?

tppm

@Wheezer

Good storytellers with bad writing skills need the services of an editor & proofreader. Don't want to do that and don't give a shit? That's not writing, that's masturbating with a keyboard. Like the other kind of masturbation, you should keep it to yourself.


Actually they need the services of either a secretary or a transcriber.

tppm
Updated:

@KinkyWinks


Do you fail to understand that it is a story I wrote, not an editor. If you can't write without one, that's fine, makes me no difference. I'm writing my stories and again I say, if you don't want to read them, then don't. If you don't understand that, then understand this. It is my god damned story and I will write it the way I want it. You go write yours and leave me alone.


What if I want to read them based on the story content, but find them unreadable based on the grammar and structure?

Note: I don't think I've read any of your stories, this is a general comment on the usefulness of proofreaders, editors, and learning the rules.

Replies:   KinkyWinks
KinkyWinks
Updated:

@tppm

I'll tell you the same thing I told Wheezer, go read them and if you find anything that stops the world, let me know.

I read something one time where everything on the page was mis-spelled, but you could read it and understand it. I'm not trying to win any contest for perfect writing, and my opening statement is plain enough, if you don't like it don't read it. I like to keep it simple enough for most people to understand.

Why is it that people that never read my stories want to talk about them?

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer
Updated:

@KinkyWinks


Why is it that people that never read my stories want to talk about them?


Because some people here may not realize that you are Catman. I didn't pick up on that at first, until I tried to look up KinkyWinks in the author's list, only to not find you. Rereading the original posts in this thread, I concluded that you are Catman, and I have already read several of your stories. Your storytelling skills are pretty damn good. Your writing skills are pretty decent. Your attitude toward people offering help and advice is horrible.

Replies:   KinkyWinks  Capt Zapp
KinkyWinks

@Wheezer

Wheezer, I keep telling you, I don't want any help. I know the stories are not as correct as some, it don't matter to me. Some of the people that hound me are writers and write good stuff, others have more text content in their Blogs than the total of all their stories. I don't want your help, and I don't want you to try to push me into asking for help. Is that so hard to understand?

Replies:   Wheezer
Capt Zapp

@Wheezer

Sounds like the guy who says "If you don't like how I drive, stay off the sidewalk!".

Personally I haven't read any of the stories of the writer in question and if this is the attitude he has, I won't be.

Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

I don't want your help, and I don't want you to try to push me into asking for help. Is that so hard to understand?


Your attitude has came through loud and clear to everyone reading this thread. It's just that you are not the only cantankerous old pig-headed obstinate bastard reading this thread. That description fits some of the rest of us too. ;)

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Wheezer

My head is shaped more like a monkey or an ape than a pig. I am sure my parents were married, too.

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer

@richardshagrin

I am sure my parents were married, too.

Well, mine weren't. So take that for what it's worth. As for being pig-headed, it's a state of mind, not a physical state...although I had this boss once... ;)

KinkyWinks

Thank you Wheezer, and if I do decide to ask for help on my grammar, you will be the first person I ask because I know that it will be perfect. Actually, I kind of like my story the way it is, that's why I posted it with all the errors that I am sure you have found.

Replies:   Wheezer  cave jug
Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

Thank you Wheezer, and if I do decide to ask for help on my grammar, you will be the first person I ask because I know that it will be perfect. Actually, I kind of like my story the way it is, that's why I posted it with all the errors that I am sure you have found.


If you are Catman, you don't really need my help. I never offered any help, except to advise that free help is available and most authors realize that everyone can use a little help. I'm not an editor. My own stories are not perfect. If someone points out an error, I'll appreciate it and make a correction. If they happen to get squicked out over my story content, then fuck them - don't read 'em. :)

Capt Zapp

If the writer is so offended by feedback, why doesn't he just turn it off? Seems like the perfect solution to me.

Perv Otaku

Things like "everything you write is shit" is just trolling. If it's "I usually like your stuff but this didn't do it for me because X" or "It's a good story but the X parts would have played better if you'd done Y" then that's more constructive.

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer

@Perv Otaku

Things like "everything you write is shit" is just trolling. If it's "I usually like your stuff but this didn't do it for me because X" or "It's a good story but the X parts would have played better if you'd done Y" then that's more constructive.


Maybe more constructive, but I suspect most authors don't appreciate self-appointed editors. (as opposed to editors who have been tasked with the job by an author.) I personally don't, or would not get offended at anyone pointing out spelling, grammar, syntax type errors. Those are easy to overlook. Sometimes even the proofreaders miss them.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Wheezer

Maybe more constructive, but I suspect most authors don't appreciate self-appointed editors.


I read Perv Otaku's comment as more referencing content/subject matter complaints than the technical complaints you get from self-appointed editors.

LonelyDad

I have nothing but respect for anyone brave or foolish enough to post a story here. If it sounds interesting I will look at it. Unless the errors are so bad I find myself pulling what hair I have left out, I will continue to read it. One of my decision criteria as to whether I will read the whole story or quit is if I can stand the errors. I can stand a lot for a good story, not so much for a not so good one.

aerosick

I did the Editing on Catman's last story "The Dirt Daubers". All of my edits were getting rid of double spaces, some punctuation and wrong or misspelled words. The story line didn't need any touches to me.

And no, I am not also a writer.

cave jug

@KinkyWinks

Hi there KinkyWinks,
it is commendable to stand up to your beliefs. Mate, there is pride in ones work and there is arrogance. More then one person here tried to gently and politely tell you the merits of paying attention to correct use of language, only to be told off by you!
At seventy, you have every right to be cantankerous, after all, you've worked hard for it, but if you just stand back and think for a change, you could "see" the light.
This from a reader who gets very annoyed by a would be writer, butchering this fine language of ours.
Cheers

Replies:   KinkyWinks
KinkyWinks

@cave jug

I can tell from what you said that you didn't read the story, if you had you would know that there were very few actual mistakes. It could have been written different for sure. Everyone's assumption that it was filled with mistakes was from my warning at the first of the story. When they read the warning they immediately jumped my ass to get an editor, just like you did. And yes, I am a grouchy ole Bastard.
So, read it then bring the mistakes here and we will get someone to critique each mistake.

Switch Blayde

@KinkyWinks

I can tell from what you said that you didn't read the story, if you had you would know that there were very few actual mistakes.


He wasn't talking about your story. He was referring to the way you replied.

Replies:   KinkyWinks
KinkyWinks

@Switch Blayde

More then one person here tried to gently and politely tell you the merits of paying attention to correct use of language, only to be told off by you!

I'm sorry, I thought he was referring to my not using correct language in the story.

richardshagrin

At least temporarily, I get the last word. I reviewed Dirt Daubers, the review just appeared on the home page. 1-11-16 (four aces). I gave it 8s across the board, which is all A s the way I rate things. After it times out of the front page, you will have to either dig it out of Barron of Ideas reviews under the reviewer tab, or find it at the bottom of the story tags under (review). I hope everybody likes it, or at least are equally dissatisfied. I said read it, if you don't like it, don't email Catman.

Replies:   KinkyWinks  Bondi Beach
KinkyWinks

@richardshagrin

Yes, I got the e-mail earlier and went to check it out. So, you had to read it to review it and gave it an "A" all the way across and didn't find all the mistakes that everyone absolutely knew were there.
Thanks Richard, now where is that Wheezer guy?

Replies:   Wheezer
Bondi Beach
Updated:

@richardshagrin


you will have to either dig it out of Barron of Ideas reviews under the reviewer


Loved the barron's [sic] closing comment regarding "earthmoving equipment porn": "I wonder if Lubrican has written a story about Bob cats?"

Robert, are you there? I second barron's query and look forward to the story.

bb

UPDATE: Since I'm always impressed with my own ideas I sent Lubrican a note asking him to write the story. One can hope.

Replies:   richardshagrin
KinkyWinks

Richard, did I leave a space in Bobcat?

Joe_Bondi_Beach

@KinkyWinks

Richard, did I leave a space in Bobcat?


[Injecting myself]: Not in the page I scanned, but barron wasn't referring to your text. I think he was making a play on Lubrican's (formerly Beating Off Bob) custom of including a character named "Bob" in each story.

bb

richardshagrin

@KinkyWinks

No, that was my error or improvisation. Bobcat is the way you did it. It made it easier to invoke Lubrican, whose heroes are always Bob.

richardshagrin

@Bondi Beach

I don't mind (sic) after Barron. Spelling it barren of ideas would be much worse. (sick) might be nearly as bad. Lots of people spell Baron with one r. More arse add interest. I didn't want to use Richard as my reviewer name, it might cause jealousy. It contains what every man wants to be, Rich and hard.

Replies:   Bondi Beach  aerosick
Bondi Beach
Updated:

@richardshagrin

Depending on what is done to them or with them, the more arse in a story the better, in my view.

I think it's all on barron (that's the way he spells it, so that's that in my view-the [sic] flags for, as Catman put it, the "grammar guys" to know it wasn't a mistake-unless, of course, barron's choice of name was a mistake in the first place, but that's on him.

Anyway, you're off the hook (or cannot claim credit for, if you prefer) for the whole Bob cat / Bobcat thing. That was barron's entirely. And I still think it was a great and funny idea.

As for the age thing, barron claims to be 71.

Cheers,

bb

aerosick
Updated:

@richardshagrin

I don't mind (sic) after Barron.


When quoting something that has a spelling or grammar mistake or presents material in a confusing way, insert the term sic in italics and enclose it in non-italic (unless the surrounding text is italic) brackets.

Sic ("thus" in Latin) is shorthand for, "This is exactly what the original material says."

Example: She wrote, "I would rather die then [sic] be seen wearing the same outfit as my sister."

The [sic] indicates that then was mistakenly used instead of than.

richardshagrin
Updated:

I knew taking Latin in high school was a good idea. Things like sic and e.g. for examplia gratia, a pleasing example are almost second nature. My favorite is Caesar's "Omnia Gallia in tres partes divisa est." You have the two largest, a lot of gall. I don't guarantee the spelling, my spell check is having a hernia trying to lift all that Latin. That goes back to about 1960 when I was 16 or 17, depending on whether it was before or after November 26th, my birthday. Born 1944, missed being a baby boomer by that much.

I missed another good one. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi. No, that isn't Gloria was sick on the bus Monday. So passes the glory of the world.

aerosick

@KinkyWinks

So, read it then bring the mistakes here and we will get someone to critique each mistake.


As this has gone pretty much off the rails, I would ask for y'all to get back On Topic. As the editor for this last story, I am interested in what I missed.

Thanks,

Billy

Replies:   tppm
Ernest Bywater

@KinkyWinks

Richard, did I leave a space in Bobcat?


I've a work in progress with a Main Character named Bob Katt. I started it about a month back, but no where near done with it yet.

tppm
Updated:

@aerosick

Was it ever on the rails?

BTW I glanced at a couple of Catman's four stories and didn't any particular problems in the couple paragraphs I looked at, so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Replies:   Grant  Wheezer
Grant

@tppm

... didn't any particular problems in the couple paragraphs...

Attempt at humour?

Replies:   tppm
Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

Thanks Richard, now where is that Wheezer guy?


Right here, catching up on the new comments. I stated that I've previously read your earlier stories and didn't find anything wrong enough to make me quit reading them. They were pretty good stories. My polite suggestions that every writer could use the help of an editor or proofreader were met with a hard-headed "fuck you" attitude. You are not the first writer on SOL (or any of the other story sites) to show such disdain, such total lack of respect toward their readers (and other authors) and I doubt you will be the last.

Wheezer

@tppm


BTW I glanced at a couple of Catman's four stories and didn't any particular problems in the couple paragraphs I looked at, so I don't see what all the fuss is about.


I don't think anyone here has any real problems with Catman's writing skills. It's his social skills and attitude that are seriously lacking.

KinkyWinks

@Wheezer

Good storytellers with bad writing skills need the services of an editor & proofreader. Don't want to do that and don't give a shit? That's not writing, that's masturbating with a keyboard. Like the other kind of masturbation, you should keep it to yourself

I guess this was just a Thank You note and I totally missed the meaning.

Replies:   richardshagrin  Wheezer
richardshagrin

@KinkyWinks

Masturbating with a keyboard. Depends on the shape and dimensions of the keyboard. May be one of those MM squick type thoughts for male authors.

I haven't seen any flexible or with a hole type keyboards but frustrated writers might be a target market. Anyone know any sex toy manufacturers? Perhaps use of an appropriate orifice in the keyboard could call up some porn on screen, or sound effects. Cleaning electrical parts may be difficult, some sort of replaceable lining, maybe like a condom, might be needed.

Wheezer

@richardshagrin

I haven't seen any flexible or with a hole type keyboards but frustrated writers might be a target market. Anyone know any sex toy manufacturers? Perhaps use of an appropriate orifice in the keyboard could call up some porn on screen, or sound effects. Cleaning electrical parts may be difficult, some sort of replaceable lining, maybe like a condom, might be needed.


You are not helping....but then, that is your intent, I assume.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Wheezer

Trying to keep it light and entertaining. I have a peculiar sense of humor, why else puns and word play?

Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

@Wheezer

Good storytellers with bad writing skills need the services of an editor & proofreader. Don't want to do that and don't give a shit? That's not writing, that's masturbating with a keyboard. Like the other kind of masturbation, you should keep it to yourself

I guess this was just a Thank You note and I totally missed the meaning.


You missed the general, non-specific tone of the statement. You are cherry-picking. My earlier statements were suggestions that every writer could use help. I did not get frustrated and lash out until it became clear that you did not give a flying fuck about anything or anyone but yourself. I've read and enjoyed your stories in the past, but after learning a little about the person behind the stories, I shall ignore any current or future writings from you - and I don't care if you make the New York Fucking Times best seller list and top Stephen King. Nobody is perfect. Only fools do not try to better themselves. I notice that you got an editor for your current story in progress. Maybe there is hope for you yet. I never said YOUR writing was bad. On the contrary - once I realized that you use a different pen name here in the forums than on SOL, I stated that you write pretty good stories.

Bondi Beach

@richardshagrin

I haven't seen any flexible or with a hole type keyboards but frustrated writers might be a target market.


My wife showed me a page from one of her catalogues. Don't rule out such an innovation-the mere dildo has come a long long way. In fact, some of the objects shown were frightening. Entertaining, too.

SOL writers had better get up to speed if the story depends on sex toys.

bb

KinkyWinks

@Wheezer

in other words, catman's bad writing - then catman is one of those arrogant assholes that I'll add to my 'Do Not Bother to Read' list.

Wheezer this was the third post and it was yours

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

in other words, catman's bad writing - then catman is one of those arrogant assholes that I'll add to my 'Do Not Bother to Read' list.

Wheezer this was the third post and it was yours


Let's quit cherry picking out of context and look at the whole comment, shall we?

I suppose it depends on what the reader was finding 'wrong.' If the reader was just expressing an opinion because he didn't like the way the story was going, then catman is justified. If, OTOH, the reader was pointing out spelling & grammar errors, homophones, plot inconsistencies - in other words, catman's bad writing - then catman is one of those arrogant assholes that I'll add to my 'Do Not Bother to Read' list.


Ain't it funny how leaving out a couple of if/then statements can completely change the tone of a post?

Replies:   KinkyWinks  Capt Zapp
KinkyWinks

@Wheezer

Yeah, and ain't it funny how some people make statements like that before they know if it contains bad writing or not. The statement that started this was me saying that if people wanted to jump me for bad writing, then just don't read it. That way they would not be offended by my bad writing. I still think that is a reasonable statement. If they don't like poor writing and think mine is bad, I'll refund every penny they paid me. Or they can just not read it. I don't think Richard had read it when he posted this thread and I do hope that he does not just jump out with a statement like that again when he has no idea what is in the story nor why I put the statement there in the first place. If it keeps one grammar cop off my ass then it worked and I will start all my stories with the same statement.

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer

@KinkyWinks

Thank you for restating your position. We get it. The "fuck you" comes through loud and clear. The lack of reading comprehension comes through also. My comment contained two if/then statements. It was not necessary to read the story as I was not criticizing the writing. I was criticizing the reader and the author. If the first if/then statement was true, then shame on the reader. If the second statement was true, then shame on the author. At that point, I had no idea which if/then statement was correct.

Replies:   KinkyWinks
Dicrostonyx

@richardshagrin

I haven't seen any flexible or with a hole type keyboards but frustrated writers might be a target market.


While it wasn't designed for your purposes, I did see a flexible keyboard for sale several years ago. It was silicone with embedded electronics, designed to be rolled up and fit into a tube carrying case. The theory was to a have a light-weight, portable keyboard for use with a tablet.

((A quick check of Amazon shows that not only are they still available, but they're cheaper than I would have thought.))

KinkyWinks

@Wheezer

Thank you for restating your position. We get it. The "fuck you" comes through loud and clear

Wheezer, you know that I never said that, nor implied that. It is probably what you would have meant if you made the statement that I put on the story. However, all I meant was don't read it if ya don't want to.

Replies:   Wheezer
Capt Zapp

@Wheezer

Ain't it funny how leaving out a couple of if/then statements can completely change the tone of a post?


Sounds like the way they seem to be reporting on political speeches lately.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Capt Zapp

@Wheezer

Ain't it funny how leaving out a couple of if/then statements can completely change the tone of a post?



Sounds like the way they seem to be reporting on political speeches lately.


No it doesn't. Politics is the art of using many words to say nothing.

richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

I have said it before, here it is again. Politics is a compound word from the Greek poli meaning many, and ticks, for bloodsucking insects.

Capt Zapp

@Dominions Son

Sounds like the way they seem to be reporting on political speeches lately.

No it doesn't. Politics is the art of using many words to say nothing.


True, but then the news agencies cut out even more so it makes even less sense.

tppm

@Grant

... didn't any particular problems in the couple paragraphs...

Attempt at humour?


Honest mistake, I didn't see that I'd left "see" out until just now in your comment.

Wheezer
Updated:

@KinkyWinks


Wheezer, you know that I never said that, nor implied that. It is probably what you would have meant if you made the statement that I put on the story. However, all I meant was don't read it if ya don't want to.


I agree with the "never said that" part. I disagree strongly with the "nor implied that" part. That's my opinion. Several, if not most of the other contributors to this thread also encouraged you to see the benefits of always striving to improve your work - even if the improvements are very minor. That's not a criticism of your work. It's exactly the same thing as the effort you put into learning the job skills you listed. I'm an amateur Luthier. I build musical instruments for fun and my own enjoyment. Maybe it's just me, but even though it is only a hobby, I always strive to do my best and to improve myself and my skills. "Good enough is never good enough" is something I was told many years ago by a man who started a small manufacturing business with his brother in his garage and turned it into a multi-million dollar worldwide company. You don't need to own a successful multinational company to think that "good enough" is never good enough.

KinkyWinks

@Wheezer

Wheezer, I had an editor, he edited the story, Richard reviewed the story and gave it A's in all 3 categories. Then you come along and tell me that "If you don't like it, don't read it" translates to "Fuck You" One of us does have a problem with English and it's not me. If you are on some strong medication, you need to go back to the Doctor and get the dosage increased. I noticed in your story codes that you are into some real shity enema type stuff. I'm not a Doctor but, that could be part of your problem. I don't think I ever met anyone with your particular fetish. Good Luck and Have a Nice Day.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Slutsinger

@Dominions Son

Hi. First, thanks for your writing. Yes, you push at the taboo; that can be fun!
I think there are a lot of other responses. I want to start though by saying that I'm not saying you should make them. You asked a question (probably rhetorical) about how could you constructively engage with a reader who was squicked by your story. I think about communication and so i'm answering. Perhaps someone here will want to engage with a reader so I'm going to take my best crack at giving advice here. I totally understand that you might not think it worth the effort; I'm not judging nor will I ever presume to decide how you should spend your time.

As background I'm writing as part of some spiritual work I'm doing to help people grow as lovers. Even so, towards the middle or end of this year I'll probably be posting a longish story coded scat/ws/snuff/slave with a significant MM component. I suspect that will pull the trolls out of the woodwork:-) It's a struggle to explore love in a challenging, violent, but compassionate environment. So I've been doing a lot of thinking here, and have practiced similar communication challenges is other spaces.

I'll start by asking the reader why they are contacting me. Are they interested/happy about some aspects of my story and hoping for something similar that doesn't squick them? Are they trying to get me to change what I write? Are they confused and hurting looking for understanding?

If I have something that might interested them coded differently I'll pass that along. If they are lashing out but can be constructive, I might try to trade understandings. I have blog entries discussing a bunch of different ways to view ws that try to get into the psychology of using it for more than degradation. I totally get not being into mm/scat/ws/bdsm/whatever. When I'm not into something though, it doesn't produce a strong reaction. Yeah, I don't want to read that. OK, spend my time elsewhere. If the story is good, skip the scene. If not, find another.

Some people though really seem to react strongly. I honestly don't yet connect with that. If a reader came along and was willing to explore why they reacted strongly just because they didn't like what I had to say, I'd love it.

I'll point to a couple of related posts I have.
https://venus-ardens.org/blogpost50-Healing-Across-the-Gulf-of-Disagreement
https://venus-ardens.org/blogpost20-Sacred-Water-Sports

Replies:   Dominions Son
Slutsinger

@Wheezer

Speaking as someone who writes and masturbates in public (in contexts where the community accepts that), I'd really rather you not tell me what to do:-)
Less flip, I'd rather people share things they produce they are proud of even if there are limits to what they choose to do. Me posting my writing doesn't hurt you. I do try and care about grammar and style, but there are things I've shared where I spent less energy than others. I've seen the value others have found in those, so I will continue, even if you'd rather I not.

Replies:   Wheezer
Bondi Beach

@KinkyWinks

I don't know if Mother is checking these threads in the new arrangement, but I think we may need her assistance. Mother S, are you there?

bb

Replies:   Switch Blayde
richardshagrin

@Wheezer

Except for government work. A fairly well known phrase is "good enough for government work."

Dominions Son

@Slutsinger

Some people though really seem to react strongly. I honestly don't yet connect with that. If a reader came along and was willing to explore why they reacted strongly just because they didn't like what I had to say, I'd love it.


Here is where I disagree. I am specifically talking about a case where a reader was squiked by coded for content.

If they feel that strongly about it, why the fuck did they start reading the story in the first place.

You can try asking them questions, but I doubt that you will get worthwhile answers from a reader that dense.

Replies:   Slutsinger
cave jug
Updated:

@KinkyWinks

Confucius say:" Man who fart in church sits in own pew,"

What I was trying to do, unsuccessfully, was to suggest to you to take the criticism, however unjust, in the same stride as you would have taken a praise. But it was not to be. Even after seventy years you did not develop grace or modesty. You seem to fall into a group of humans who believe they are beyond any criticism or rebuke.

Bertrand Russell said the following; "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."-

Secondly, to like or dislike what you have written, one MUST read it first, so your arrogant response...do not read it if you do not like it"...
is nonsensical at best.
Cheers

Switch Blayde

@Bondi Beach

Mother S, are you there?


Serena said she would not be able to use this forum.

Dominions Son

@cave jug

Bertrand Russell said the following; "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."-


I've seen a number of studies that claim to show* that the incompetent tend to over estimate their abilities while the highly competent (experts) tend to underestimate their abilities.

I have heard a quote (I don't know the origin) "The more I know, the more I know how much I don't know."

* I haven't delved into the studies, so I don't know if they are any good.

KinkyWinks

@cave jug

Cavejug, It might just be a Texas thing but I am not going to take unjust criticism.
I start reading a lot of stories on SOL and decide I don't like them, SO, I just don't read them and go look for another one.

Slutsinger

@Dominions Son

Here is where I disagree. I am specifically talking about a case where a reader was squiked by coded for content.
If they feel that strongly about it, why the fuck did they start reading the story in the first place.

Sure, like Switch in the discussion on said and dialogue tags, I'm not here to convince you of anything. If you'll take the time to try and understand me, I'll generally take the time to communicate and when I communicate I'll try my best to understand you. It's the understanding I value, not changing my opinion or yours.

In the above, I understand neither why someone would feel that strongly about a story, nor why they'd read (and especially comment) on such a story.
My experience is that if I spend the time I can often connect with people and learn from them in such situations. The healing across the gulf blog post talks about the general concept, although a friend of mine is writing up some anicdotes I found really interesting in this space.
gaining that understanding is valuable enough for me to spend my time. I totally get that it may not be for you. I'm not trying to spend your time on the task:-)
I do think that assuming the reader is dense is likely to decrease the chance of success.
I do think I understand where you're coming from and thank you for sharing. I hope you've gained some insight into a different way to look at the world, one you probably won't choose to adopt.

Joe_Bondi_Beach

@Switch Blayde

Serena said she would not be able to use this forum.


Very bad news.

bb

Wheezer
Updated:

@Slutsinger

I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't think I have replied to or pointed out anything about you or your writings in this thread at all. If you write what I like and you carry it off with reasonable skill, I might read it. If not, I'll ignore it. I have no interest in telling you how to write, or what to write.

Wheezer
Updated:

@cave jug


What I was trying to do, unsuccessfully, was to suggest to you to take the criticism, however unjust, in the same stride as you would have taken a praise. But it was not to be. Even after seventy years you did not develop grace or modesty. You seem to fall into a group of humans who believe they are beyond any criticism or rebuke.


I think we are wasting our time with this one. It's now at the level of third-grade name calling and taunts.

Replies:   cave jug
Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

Serena said she would not be able to use this forum.


If I remember right, it was something to do with SoL not being friendly enough with her mobile device, I wonder if the changes Lazeez has made in the last few months has changed that enough so she can? Maybe someone with her email should ask about her current ability to access or not.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

If I remember right, it was something to do with SoL not being friendly enough with her mobile device,


I remember her saying she had to do it through email. Like me, she didn't use Google Groups but communicated with email. With the new forum, there is no email option so she said she couldn't use it.

cave jug

@Wheezer

Quite right, mate, but sometimes, third grade name calling tends to shake up and awake few. Being rude is not the way to respond to anybody let alone an obtuse person. Capacity to see the other side of the coin is a learned ability, not genetic.
I do admit defeat here.

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