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Foreign languages - a question

sejintenej
Updated:

SOL stories are overwhelmingly written in English but another site has a section for stories written in French (and may have other languages). I am currently reading two SOL stories which have conversations in other languages relevant to the plot, usually without translation. (One is a student going to Sweden and one a Dutchman talking to his family). I don't dare ask my wife to translate the second!
To what extent (and this depends on the languages involved - I realise that versions of Spanish are used in the US) should authors use other languages?

Dominions Son

@sejintenej

To what extent (and this depends on the languages involved - I realise that versions of Spanish are used in the US) should authors use other languages?


If you are talking about for posting here, the site currently only accepts stories written in English.

Having a limited amount of dialog in other languages is probably okay, but if it's too extensive, it will detract from the story for readers who don't understand the language used.

Replies:   sejintenej  sourdough
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@sejintenej

If the dialogue is non-English, it better not be important.

If it is important, you need to somehow let the reader know what was said. For example:

Pierre glared at his wife and slammed his hand on the table. "Va au diable."

"You go to hell!" she said and stormed out of the room.

sejintenej
Updated:

@Dominions Son


If you are talking about for posting here, the site currently only accepts stories written in English.

Having a limited amount of dialog in other languages is probably okay, but if it's too extensive, it will detract from the story for readers who don't understand the language used.


Exactly my point. I'm lucky in that I have worked abroad and can understand written Swedish but the two long sentences in Dutch escape me (other words are translated or can be guessed from the context). For me personally the Swedish brought back pleasant memories of 50 years ago but I suspect the vast majority of people over here could not understand even French or Spanish which are supposed to be taught in schools

docholladay

@sejintenej

One alternative is to do what Ernest did in at least one story of his. He pointed out that in one or more sections the language was Japanese but had been translated for ease of understanding except for names primarily. Some things can be determined by usage but there are tons of words and expressions which have to be either translated or explained.

richardshagrin

One problem with providing the original text in a foreign language and then an English translation is who did the translation? There are some concepts that translate weirdly. One of my favorites is the English to Russian and back to English of "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." I read that the retranslation came back, "The Vodka is strong but the meat is rotten."

This may be apocryphal but helps illustrate the problem of what you said is not what you meant. Translations, if they cost you nothing, they may be worth the price.

Replies:   sejintenej
Ernest Bywater

@sejintenej

To what extent (and this depends on the languages involved


The few times I've used another language in my stories I include a translation because not everyone understands all the other languages. I was recently reading a story by a US author and they had the main character involved in several conversations in Mexican Spanish with another character - I never read past the fourth such conversation because it was clear they were going to be frequent and not being a Spanish speaker I had no idea of what went on in the conversation and I couldn't work it out from context. That author is now on my Don't bother reading list because I'll not know if any story he writes will be readable. Most other authors include a translation in brackets after the Spanish etc.

Lazeez has a policy that stories have to be in English, but does let a smattering of other languages within the story get by.

Replies:   samuelmichaels
Dominions Son

@sejintenej

but I suspect the vast majority of people over here could not understand even French or Spanish which are supposed to be taught in schools


Yes, I took Spanish in high school, but I remember very little of the vocabulary, because I never had anyone to use it with outside of class.

Replies:   sejintenej  docholladay
sejintenej

@richardshagrin

One problem with providing the original text in a foreign language and then an English translation is who did the translation? There are some concepts that translate weirdly.

Too true. "full like an egg" (literal translation from French) = I'm full, I have eaten plenty. Some Latin languages texts are a nightmare with a half page sentence full of adjectives and adjectival clauses.

sejintenej

@Dominions Son


Yes, I took Spanish in high school, but I remember very little of the vocabulary, because I never had anyone to use it with outside of class.

Which version? ;-) I worked using a version current in Gibraltar and the Canary Islands but a uni course I am auditing (thanks for the idea Lazlo) covers about six different varieties of Spanish. Whatever you do avoid Paraguayan Spanish - I could never understand it even written.

Replies:   Dominions Son
docholladay

@Dominions Son

Yes, I took Spanish in high school, but I remember very little of the vocabulary, because I never had anyone to use it with outside of class.


That is why its best if the writer (storyteller) provides a translation. The writer knows what he meant to say with those words and that is the meaning that is important. One of my favorite methods is the one used by Ernest.

Dominions Son

@sejintenej

Which version?


Primarily proper Spanish (Spain) however, a number of Mexican dialect issues were covered.

samuelmichaels

@Ernest Bywater

If you read 19th and early 20th century novels, a number of them (esp. written in Europe) include quotes in other languages without translation. I think it was assumed that reading would be done by educated readers, which at the time included at least the basic reading comprehension of major European languages and Latin.

There was also an assumption that the reader would have read "the classics", so references to works of literature would be understood with no explicit context. Of course, at the time, the commonly available corpus of writing was far smaller than now, so the idea of every educated gentleman (and many ladies) would be familiar with the same core books was plausible.

docholladay

Another major reason for including the translation is every time a reader has to stop reading to search for the translation and/or the meaning of words. It interrupts the reading process. After a while the reader might just say the hell with it and find something else to read.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@docholladay


After a while the reader might just say the hell with it and find something else to read.


make that a definite will in my case.

edit to correct a typo

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

I remember a conversation I had with a Professor in Salt Lake City (University of Utah). He said that the word choice should be the word that was easiest to understand. The exception to that rule was if it was a technical paper or equivalent where you had to use those 100 dollar words to prove how smart you were.

Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

The exception to that rule was if it was a technical paper or equivalent


Ayep, he got that right.

Another odd area is university / college assignment writing. Back in the late 1990s I was doing a part-time university course on business management for work, at the time the federal government hand been testing out new financial management ideas over the previous several years and I was the financial manager at one military base where we were the leaders in one of these concepts. On the previous three years I'd written a few papers for distribution throughout the department on the system, how it worked, what worked best, what didn't work, and how to get the best use of it. Well, what do you know, that concept was one I had to do an assignment on in the course.

Now the scene is, at the time I was the federal government expert on that system, but I wasn't allowed to give my own opinion in the assignment. However, I was allowed to include all my papers in the bibliography and refer to the content of the papers I'd previously written and what was in them was valid opinion to state in the assignment. - - I couldn't state something was the best way to do it, but I could reference a document where I'd previously stated it was the best way to do it - - go figure that one out, I never did.

1111

My take on foreign languages is that unless the author is familiar enough with it, he'd be best advised to stick to English and mention that the speaker was speaking in another language. Lazlo Zalezac is one of my favourite authors but in 'Commune', there was a smattering of German sentences which felt like they came directly from Google Translate or worse. Actually it was a lot worse. It didn't turn me off completely but it was certainly a distraction. They were simple enough that any German speaker could translate them for him. If I see a passage in French or any other language. I'd skip it and think it was well written, and look for the English equivalent. Someone knowledgeable in French may react the way I did to poorly written German

docholladay

I guess it all boils down to that KISS rule. Its funny how many things are covered by the simplest rules.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin
Updated:

@docholladay

KISS it and make it better.

awnlee jawking

@docholladay

I agree, and I would extend the principle.

If your readers only speak English, how does it help the flow of the story to give the original Spanish as it was spoken? For the reader to understand it, you're going to have to supply the translation anyway so use another technique to show the speech isn't in English. For example, I've seen italics used effectively for this purpose.

AJ

docholladay

@awnlee jawking

I will admit that some words and expressions have become very common across both language and cultural barriers but even those can have problems at times.

There will always be something better coming around the corner. But basics should still apply regardless of the knowledge or skill levels. Just the more skill and knowledge a writer has the easier it might look from the outside.

Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

If your readers only speak English, how does it help the flow of the story to give the original Spanish as it was spoken? For the reader to understand it, you're going to have to supply the translation anyway so use another technique to show the speech isn't in English.


I agree, and certainly if there is a lot of the foreign language used.

However there may be cases where you don't want the reader to necessarily understand what was actually said.

For example:
A story told from the POV of the main character and there is a second character who occasionally swears at the main character in a language the main character doesn't understand and he/she never learns the translation of what was said.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Dominions Son


A story told from the POV of the main character and there is a second character who occasionally swears at the main character in a language the main character doesn't understand and he/she never learns the translation of what was said.


I agree, but not with your example. If the reader doesn't know the foreign language, then they won't know it's swearing and you'll lose the effect.

There's another thing to consider. When I was a teenager, one of my friend's parents spoke mostly Yiddish. When we were in their house and he was arguing with his parents, he's speak in English and they'd speak in Yiddish. Me, not understanding Yiddish, was still able to understand a lot based on my friend's English part.

I'd be wary of using foreign language in my stories. Maybe a common word like adios.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


If the reader doesn't know the foreign language, then they won't know it's swearing and you'll lose the effect.


I think you can get a lot of that across by describing tone and body language in the narrative.

Edited to add:

For example:

"Jebi se!" the Croatian woman said as she gave me the finger and stormed off in a huff.

sejintenej
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


A story told from the POV of the main character and there is a second character who occasionally swears at the main character in a language the main character doesn't understand and he/she never learns the translation of what was said.

I agree, but not with your example. If the reader doesn't know the foreign language, then they won't know it's swearing and you'll lose the effect.


A combination of sounds can be expressed in a multitude of ways

"you silly git" he said smiling (laughing)

"you silly git" he said contemptuously

"you silly git" he shouted

"you silly git" he said menacingly

"du verdamnte amerikanische schwein" he snarled as he raised his revolver

It is seldom the actual words which are important but how they are said and the author's task is to express that.

(BTW - I know absolutely no German so applegoose all round)

I referred at the start to Dutch being spoken (Google translate couldn't handle it); later we had the protagonist talking to his secretary but the writer states that they are talking in Dutch (but the text is English). This is emphasised when his sister complains that, although she is and speaks Dutch, the sounds hurt her throat and wants them to speak English - a good getaround.

edit; apologies to Dominions Son; I think you posted whilst I was typing

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Invid Fan

@sejintenej

To what extent (and this depends on the languages involved - I realise that versions of Spanish are used in the US) should authors use other languages?


I generally use foreign languages when someone in the scene, usually the POV character, isn't supposed to understand. I've also come to use it in place of alien dialog in SF stories. Google translate is as good as making gibberish up, but it looks like real words. Plus, that culture is a good source of interesting character names.

Ernest Bywater

@sejintenej

A combination of sounds can be expressed in a multitude of ways


In Australia we make very good use of the word bastard to mean many things, based on how it's said. They range from What a bastard to You silly bastard right down to He's a total bastard and everything in between.

Replies:   richardshagrin  Zom
richardshagrin

@Ernest Bywater

Bastard is also a kind of sword. The grip is for one and a half hands, according to Google. I didn't read a lot about it so its not clear to me how many men had one and a half hands.

Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

I didn't read a lot about it so its not clear to me how many men had one and a half hands.


Maybe they were arches the French caught, they had a habit of cutting off two fingers of the archer's hand.

Zom

@Ernest Bywater

the word bastard to mean many things

Not forgetting "how's it goin' you Old Bastard?"

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

Bastard is also a kind of sword. The grip is for one and a half hands, according to Google. I didn't read a lot about it so its not clear to me how many men had one and a half hands.


Basically the grip is long enough to use the sword two handed, but the blade is shorter and lighter than a true grate sword and balanced so it can be wielded one handed. You can go back and forth between using it one handed or two handed even within a single fight. You always have to have at least one hand on the sword at all times but you only use both hands half the time, hence hand and a half.

Zom

@richardshagrin

Bastard is also a kind of sword

Bastard is also a kind of file cut, as in 'flat bastard'.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Zom

Bastard is also a kind of file cut, as in 'flat bastard'.


As against the poor flat broke bastard thanks to the government fees.

Replies:   richardshagrin  Zom
richardshagrin

@Ernest Bywater

Governments are far more inventive than just fees. Sales Taxes, transfer taxes, inheritance taxes, income taxes, capital levies, parking and traffic tickets, fines, court costs, interest charges on unpaid balances, and lots of just plain fees, for a variety of licenses (car, driver, marriage, pet) improvement districts adding water, sewer, sidewalk, arborist services. I left out real-estate tax and assessments for things like street repairs. I mentioned income taxes, but city, state and federal taxes some incomes. And if you don't take the right amount or more out of your untaxed savings, there is a penalty tax on the amount left on deposit in error. Imports are taxed (duties) Some exports are controlled, I am sure there is a fee to be paid to clear that a particular controlled good is authorized to leave the country. And Passports so you can leave the country are expensive, too.

There is a reason its the Infernal Revenue "Service". In the sense that you take a cow or mare to be serviced by a bull or stallion.

Zom
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


flat broke bastard


And the poor flat out bastard who has too much work.

sourdough

@Dominions Son

The author Tod has written stories in Spanish which are on this site. There may be other exceptions.

I was reading a story by another author (I forget his name). The story is set in India. He has several sentences and even conversations in the local language which he may or may not translate for us English monolinguals. It's very distracting.

Dominions Son

@sourdough

The author Tod has written stories in Spanish which are on this site. There may be other exceptions.


If so, I have no idea how he got them posted by the moderators.

http://storiesonline.net/author/posting_guidelines.php

For now, English Language stories only. A story may contain phrases in other languages but the story must be fully readable and comprehendible by english-only readers. (Other languages maybe supported in the future.)

Perv Otaku

TV and movies put subtitles when foreign languages are being spoken. Comics usually stick angle brackets around the dialogue to indicate this. There must be something equivalent that can be done in prose.

In the book Peter Pan, it is explained that Tinkerbell only speaks in bell chimes, but Peter understands her. Early on the text takes pains to point out that she's chiming and such-and-such is what she said. By the end of the book that's completely abandoned and it's written as if she's speaking normal English like anyone else.

Switch Blayde

@Perv Otaku

TV and movies put subtitles when foreign languages are being spoken.


Not always. Sometimes they speak in a foreign language without subtitles. It may be a sentence or a few. I guess they think you'll get the gist of what their saying without needing to know what exactly they're saying.

Ernest Bywater

@Perv Otaku

There must be something equivalent that can be done in prose.


Yes, some authors put a translation in using brackets, some use italics, some both, and some just state it's all translated to English early and leave it at that. A lot depends on how much is being done in the other language.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

Subtitles, like all translations, depend on the skills and intent of the translator. Long ago I went to a French movie with English subtitles. In a scene the actor went on for several paragraphs, the subtitle said "NO". In some ways English is a more compact language than some of the Romance (Latin based) languages. Some stores have "Slippery when wet" signs translated into Spanish, and the translation is much longer than the English.

Replies:   sejintenej
sejintenej

@richardshagrin

Subtitles, like all translations, depend on the skills and intent of the translator. Long ago I went to a French movie with English subtitles. In a scene the actor went on for several paragraphs, the subtitle said "NO".


I don't often see films but I have watched political speeches with oral translation which bears little relationship with the original.

Then we got the hopefully one-off signing "expert" who knew no signing!

Romance languages - depends on the circumstances - I have seen horrendous flowery publicity sentences as well as some which are hardly longer than English

Crumbly Writer

@sejintenej

Sejintenej, printing unreadable portions of text is obviously a big no-no, as few readers are likely to have those particular skill sets. However, I've included other languages in my stories several times. The key is to either have someone translate it, or have the characters themselves paraphrase it for someone else in the scene.

Using authentic languages can add to the story's atmosphere and give it a feeling of authenticity, but it's easy to screw up.

In my case, if it's necessary to have a foreign speaker, it's fine to include it, but you've got to figure out how to get them speaking to each other in a believable way. If an author includes Spanish terms because he believes everyone lives in Texas, than they're merely delusional. I know several people across Europe who speak a variety of languages, but what are the odds they'd speak Cantonese? The same is true for foreign readers.

One tricky bit is getting around the special characters required to print foreign languages. I had one story where an older Vietnamese woman showed up, accompanied by her very young granddaughter who translated for her. It conveyed the differences in cultures, while providing clues about what the characters were facing from a different (foreign) perspective.

As Richard Shagun points out, including Google Translate results is a terrible idea. If you must include foreign translations, you can usually locate someone on Fivrr.com who'll translate whatever you want for only five bucks. You can generally figure out the context from Google Translate, but the translation is typically piss poor!

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

If an author includes Spanish terms because he believes everyone lives in Texas, than they're merely delusional.


Very true, and my knowledge of Klingon and German doesn't help a damn with Spanish.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Very true, and my knowledge of Klingon and German doesn't help a damn with Spanish.

Years ago, I spent over a month in Madrid installing a financial transaction system between New York City and Madrid (I never once got out of the city, continually thinking I'd only be there for a few more days). Anytime some cute chick would start talking to me, I'd start out with English, which often went nowhere, then I'd switch to my high school German, who fewer Spaniards speak than they do English. So I'd sit there for hours, listening to the cuties tell me everything about their lives, never understanding a single word. My local friends thought my subterfuge was hilarious.

Replies:   Grant
Grant

@Crumbly Writer

So I'd sit there for hours, listening to the cuties tell me everything about their lives, never understanding a single word.

Reminds me of some people I used to know.
Both were Chinese but one was from Taiwan & the other from Malaysia. He spoke Cantonese, she spoke Mandarin.
After a few drinks (or when she was on a roll) she would always revert from English to Mandarin. It didn't matter how many times he told her he had no idea what she was saying because he only spoke Cantonese.
The number of times you'd see them sitting together, she talking away & him just sitting there rolling his eyes...

Replies:   sejintenej
sejintenej

@Grant

After a few drinks (or when she was on a roll) she would always revert from English to Mandarin. It didn't matter how many times he told her he had no idea what she was saying because he only spoke Cantonese

Had this with a school friend of my wife whose mother only spoke ? Cantonese. At a genuine Chinese restaurant she couldn't speak to the waiter but they got over that by writing in Chinese which they both understood. Incidentally my wife's friend now living in MD could never speak direct to her mother because she spoke English!

As to CW's reply to me I was referring to outside work being long and tedious As for Texas Spanish M.I.T. teaches Mexican plus Puerto Rico plus Madrid Spanish and about 4 other varieties of Spanish in their undergraduate course. Even that spoken in South West Spain is totally different to Madrid (which I cannot understand). South America has many different dialects - and don't get me writing about the abomination coming out of Paraguay.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@sejintenej

Spain used to be several different countries. Castile and Aragon were united just before Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue in 1492, when their monarchs married. Traditional Spanish is Castilian, if I remember right. It is pronounced like the speaker has a lisp because one of the Kings did have one, and people copied his pronunciation. Once again, I am relying on very old memory, but Madrid was in Castile and that's why Madrid Spanish is another word for Castilian. The Arabs had conquered a lot of Mediterranean Spain and that was another reason why the language in that part of Spain is different. I think El Cid was involved in the reconquest. For similar geographic reasons Portuguese is not Spanish. All the Romance languages started out a local dialects of Latin. Look how different various English speakers are with just a couple of hundred years to develop variations, and with much better transportation and population exposure to how others speak "The Queen's English". Most of the time they speak the King's English but Victoria and Elizabeth II have had unusually long reigns.

sejintenej
Updated:

@richardshagrin

You are right about Castillian Spanish but there are at least three other languages in Spain. Llanito is Spanish with Moorish words mixed in and is spoken around the south west - Gibraltar etc. and I was amazed to hear it spoken in the Canary Islands. The major difference is pronunciation - no lisp and pronunciation of letters closer to English. Basque is an ancient language which seems to have no connection with any other language and is spoken on both sides of the border in the north east of Spain. Next we have Occitan which extends from the Alpine valleys of Italy across almost to the Atlantic and half way up France and is still spoken and is an optional minor subject in the French Bac. About 6 major dialects - Provençal, Languedocienne,.... and Catalan which is spoken in Andorre and Eastern Spain and along the border in France. It is closer to Spanish than French. I can read but not speak European Portuguese which has many Mediterranean influences and is very different to Brazilian Portuguese which now includes Amerindian words.

Joe_Bondi_Beach
Updated:

@sourdough


The author Tod has written stories in Spanish which are on this site. There may be other exceptions.


I read the first few lines of "Virgilio." To my totally non-native eye and ear, they read in very formal and correct Spanish at practically a grade school level, or a very well-done translation from English, i.e., the sentence construction reads more like English than native Spanish. By "formal and correct," I mean not the way two high school or younger kids usually talk.

Ex.: -¿Estás seguro de esto?- Preguntó Virgilio a Mike mientras intentaba trepar al árbol.

"Are you sure about this?" Virgilio asked Mike while he tried [Edit: began, got ready to] to climb the tree. [Fun fact: Google tells me "trepar," which is "climb" in Spanish, is "fuck" in Portuguese (presumably slang).]

-¿Quieres ver a Reina o no?- Repuso Mike desde la base del árbol. -Entonces apúrate, o no habrá luz para que la veas.-

"Do you want to see Reina or not?" answered Mike from the foot of the tree. "So hurry up or there won't be enough light for you to see her."

bb

richardshagrin

I have heard, but don't know how true it is, Portuguese is pronounced like Spanish, but with a mouthful of mashed potatoes.

Replies:   Bondi Beach  sejintenej
Bondi Beach

@richardshagrin

I have heard, but don't know how true it is, Portuguese is pronounced like Spanish, but with a mouthful of mashed potatoes.


Precisamente.

Once in my checkered past I worked a summer as a customs inspector at LAX. In my pseudo-Argentine-inflected Spanish I asked travelers from Brazil, La ropa es suya?, "Is the clothing [in the suitcase] yours?" "Suya" pronounced Argentine-style comes out as "dirty" in Portuguese.

Probably a good start to an SOL story, but not a communications success.

bb

Replies:   sejintenej
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Look how different various English speakers are with just a couple of hundred years to develop variations, and with much better transportation and population exposure to how others speak "The Queen's English".

Richard, I think languages changes faster the more communication there is. Languages which sit in isolation don't evolve as quickly as those where millions of people are trying to adapt to it.

Replies:   ustourist
ustourist

@Crumbly Writer

On the other hand, the regional variations in word meaning and pronunciation in the UK developed valley by valley, and it was because there wasn't mass communication or travel that they evolved.
I would guess that a similar situation was created in the southern and western US, where pockets of various nationalities settled in country areas and the isolation was what was responsible for the creation of new words and meanings. Within urban environments it is probably a bit more complicated but Bronx may have been due to a similar cultural isolation. Cockney was developed over a remarkably short period and may be the most fluid form of "English" as it is based on street slang, though trendy types have tried (and failed) to hijack it for their own purposes.

Replies:   sejintenej
sejintenej

@Bondi Beach

Once in my checkered past I worked a summer as a customs inspector at LAX. In my pseudo-Argentine-inflected Spanish I asked travelers from Brazil, La ropa es suya?, "Is the clothing [in the suitcase] yours?" "Suya" pronounced Argentine-style comes out as "dirty" in Portuguese.

Once in my checkered past I asked a beautiful girl in a roomful of customers to surrender her innocence to me there and then! Fortunately everyone realised I was just learning Spanish

sejintenej

@ustourist

On the other hand, the regional variations in word meaning and pronunciation in the UK developed valley by valley, and it was because there wasn't mass communication or travel that they evolved.

In Norway valleys were cut off from each other and language developed valley by valley. I got caught first time through when a shopkeeper asked me for "shoo" kroner which I didn't understand. I had learned "siva" kroner (both words spelt as they sound, not correct Norwegian spelling for seven). Even n ow there seem to be two "official" languages plus Lap

sejintenej

@richardshagrin

I have heard, but don't know how true it is, Portuguese is pronounced like Spanish, but with a mouthful of mashed potatoes

Depends on the place. Outside Lisbon it is OMG impossible to catch a single word, Rio - "s" is pronounced "sh" as in shit, (but they could be speaking Japanese), São Paulo is pretty clear, Rio Grande do Sul - one word in three is high German, Salvador da Bahia and north east - listen for the Spanish influence

Replies:   sourdough
sourdough

@sejintenej

I knew this guy from Recife in the north of Brazil. He pronounced an r at the beginning of a word like an h. Hence, a luxury car brand would sound like Holls Hoyce. His last name was Pinto. That cracked up a girl I knew from Sao Paulo in the south of Brazil. Pinto was a slang term for prick down south.

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