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Incest subject

xman
Updated:

Hello authors.

Is it possible to have a discussion about a subject, exploited in many stories on this site, sex between close family members. Some have high downloads, some high ratings, some have a list of tags, which helps me to select what I will read and what I will not. That is idea of tags, to state the obvious.

My interest is of slightly different nature.

Are they (stories) sought after because society said it is a taboo and we want it nevertheless, or it is against "nature" so we are looking for a kinkiness, or they turn us more then other kind?

It is clear to me, human sexuality is a subject being studied and explored by those who tell us they know more then the rest of us. I'd like to hear from the creators of such literature.

What creates the "need" for them. I have noticed that great many authors, not all, have at least one of the kind, in their body of work.

Now, if my question is out of place, as being inappropriate, then, my apologies, but Id like to hear from you.

Thank you in advance.

Arquillius

@xman

Hello Xman,

Since I started writing the "SWMS" or Sex with my sister series back in 2005, I figured I should answer you.

My story started off as me playing off one of my fantasies in a safe and mature manner without involving actual family members. This came from a deeply repressed incident, that I had blacked out, where I was forced to have sex with my sister when I was very young by my two older sisters... yeah that shit sticks with you. When I recalled the incident (a few years ago) I spent a great deal of time rereading my stories and thinking things over. Now, in retrospect, I wish that I had sat down before writing and discussed the incident with the family I had chosen to cut off from contact years later. No, they weren't the type of people you would openly talk to, but maybe it might've saved our relationships as they existed at the time.

As for the subject, My characters, initially in that book, find each other, because of a situation that turns them on (a movie) and they begin exploring mainly because they feel safe with each other. The partners see each other as someone they can trust. A person they've known forever. That trust is easy to play on and set up a relationship with.

Now you may notice that my profile here is kind of empty. Yeah. Deleted my stories from the site and will be putting them back after MAJOR revisions.

Other stories I've done are like "Accidental Incest" where a set of twins (brother and sister) are basically forced to have sex by a series of earth quakes that start while they're in a cave exploring. The cave begins to crumble, and the shaking basically knocks them down and forces them into each other... from there they figure out what to do and how to deal with it.

Okay so then there's the more recent series, High school troubles, where the main characters hook up after the younger sister confesses an attraction to her brother. Yes, they hook up, but mainly so that they can equalize each others love lives without jumping into someone else's bed... too bad it doesn't work out too well and it ends up exploring rape, accidental incest, and other scenarios.

Again, these stories are all back in the redo bin of my computer, and i'm trying to write them to be realistic over all.

As for why are they sought after... well, i'm no psychologist, and a number of people have told me (one being a former roommate) that they don't like them. It's fine. Don't worry, I don't get angry over that.

As for human sexuality, as I have began coming to terms with my own over many years, I can only say that I'm no expert, somethings turn people on, others don't. Former roommate included on that one. What turned him on (cub porn, my wife caught him in the living room jacking off to it one day, and he kept doing it regardless if my wife was there or not.) does not turn me on and doesn't turn my wife on. I like the stories of exploring sexuality and first times, and my wife likes Male on male themes.

So I hope I've helped in some way to assist you in your understanding.

--Arq

Replies:   xman  xman
Chase Shivers
Updated:

@xman

As someone who does include incest as part of several stories, I can offer you my perspective.

Personally, I have zero interest in any actual incest within my family (no experience nor any desire for it), but the fantasy of it (for other people) is a turn on. It's not something I believe I have control over, as with anything else which I find arousing.

Perhaps it is the taboo, perhaps it is the way it makes it easier to indulge in the 'teaching sexuality' fantasies. I also like the availability heuristic involved and I tend to write about the struggle which can happen when intimacy is 'available' from within the family but social norms and personal morals forbid it.

That last point is probably the why of my including incest as a major piece of my writing. It offers fertile ground for exploring a taboo moral issue. Plus, given how I tend to like my characters to struggle with their desires but ultimately be treated well, it offers additional fertile ground for romance/love/kindness that is very different from those found in non-incestuous situations.

Replies:   xman
Joe_Bondi_Beach
Updated:

@xman


Are they (stories) sought after because society said it is a taboo and we want it nevertheless, or it is against "nature" so we are looking for a kinkiness, or they turn us more then other kind?


All of the above, except I would substitute "as much as other kind[s]" for "more th[a]n."

Writing incest is a hoot, nothing more, nothing less. It has (he said, lying on the analyst's couch) nothing to do with any actual family members of mine.

The characters are constructs. I'd like to say love and affection are the principal motivators of the characters in most of my stories.

My stories are a riff on "What if?" Although I wrote Emily in part because my wife asked me early on why Sam in "Summer Heat" couldn't have been the girl next door instead of the narrator's sister.

bb

Replies:   Joe_Bondi_Beach  xman
Joe_Bondi_Beach
Updated:

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

Forgot to add that, unlike Arquillus, the only connection between the sex by teenagers in my stories and my real life is that some of the incidents (not involving family members, BTW) are taken from life- except that, sadly, those incidents did not feature any real sex.

xman
Updated:

@Arquillius

Thanks mate,

rather lengthy and detailed replay, more then I hopped for. It helps some. There are great many authors to choose from, and making sure I am not being offensive here, declaring that you are not on my list of favorites, I'll find time to read a story or three, you have posted, to round of what you have told me. One never knows, you may become another I like to read.
Cheers.

xman

@Chase Shivers

Thank you Sir,
another lengthy response. Unless I read an essay, a scientific book or premise, condition of enjoying someones writing, is a suspension of belief. So whether the act has happened or it is a fantasy is of no issue. To me, it is an act of love, between the two. Any coercion or worse, use of violence to facilitate it, is abhorrent to me. Just the way I am.

Replies:   Chase Shivers
xman

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

Thanks Joe,
you a right, pointing out the choice of words in the quote of my paragraph.

You, as the other two gentleman, go on the list of authors to read, before I kick proverbial bucket.

Something of a personal question if I may. Two in fact.

Are you by any chance an Aussie? Bondi Beach is a famous beach here in Australia, namely, Sidney in the State of New South Wales. And if you are not, and if you happen to get here, you've got to make an effort to visit it. But then again, I'm prejudiced.

Second, under "J" in the list of authors, I can not spot Joe_Bondi_Beach! Am I blind? Help me out.

Have a cold XXXX! (An Aussie would understand this bit.)

Replies:   anim8ed  Bondi Beach
xman

@Arquillius

Hey Arq,

went to the list of authors, I can not find you either! Is it because you've removed your stories?

Replies:   Arquillius
anim8ed

@xman

Second, under "J" in the list of authors, I can not spot Joe_Bondi_Beach! Am I blind? Help me out.


Drop the Joe and look up Bondi Beach.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@anim8ed

Second, under "J" in the list of authors, I can not spot Joe_Bondi_Beach! Am I blind? Help me out.

Drop the Joe and look up Bondi Beach.


What he said. Sorry. I should have noticed that this board gives me two options.

bb

Bondi Beach

@xman

Are you by any chance an Aussie? Bondi Beach is a famous beach here in Australia, namely, Sidney in the State of New South Wales. And if you are not, and if you happen to get here, you've got to make an effort to visit it. But then again, I'm prejudiced.


I'm a Yank, with the great good fortune to have worked in Sydney for about four years in the early '90s.

I swam at Bondi Beach, in the surf or the baths, almost every morning for most of that time. It was delightful. Swimming with Kate keys off that. ("Morning at the Baths" is the first chapter excerpted as a stand-alone.)

Cheers,
bb

tppm
Updated:

@xman

I look for incest stories because I like pedo stories, and in the current climate of persecution of pedos that's where I'm most likely to find them. Also, there's a lot of father-daughter incest in the real world, though I suspect not as much as some anti pedo and anti incest people would have us believe, so there's a lot in stories.

Replies:   one_wise_man  xman
Arquillius

@xman

Like I posted before. They've been pulled (from EVERYWHERE... except maybe 1 or 2 sites that I don't use anymore.) And I am in the midst of a rewrite.

Why? I didn't like how they turned out. Let me give a cogent paradigm here. NISJC which was one of my more recent stories, was about... maybe 30 pages long, Followed Naked in School rules and well, I took it down and began rewriting it. I've written it three times total now. It's 52 pages at the moment, and I'm loving what I did.

Hopefully the things I change will make other readers enjoy as well, but at this point, it's more of a "It's for me" thing as the only reason I'm continuing re-writes on it is because I don't like where it goes, and I know I could do better.

Chase Shivers

@xman

You're welcome, xman. I completely agree with you re: coercion and violence. One of the things I enjoy most about writing incest stories is that I am challenged to come up with "plausible" scenarios which bring the family members together (plausible in the it's-still-a-big-stretch-in-reality sense, of course).

That challenge can be fun, trying to figure out along the way a path to make it happen, and it makes my characters go through moral questions and difficult decision points. In some stories, this is a quicker on-ramp, but others, it can be many chapters before the idea of an incestuous encounter becomes something more tangible. Using violence and coercion are, to me, shortcuts to get to the sex you want to see (and far, far too frequently what reality actually holds instead of the fantasies I like to pen), and completely opposite the kind romantic aura that I enjoy reading and writing about.

richardshagrin

There are do-overs where the now teenage hero enjoys incest with female family members. It seems to flow naturally, when I read them. When the hero grew up as a different person than the guy he is transported to be, there is line of thought it isn't incest at all. There may be the biological problems with any offspring, but hero and sister/mother/cousin didn't grow up together and emotionally its not.

Happy writing, and if you want to do a do-over, more power to you.

one_wise_man

@tppm

I am very ignorant here, Sir,
when you say "pedo" , what do you refer to?

Is it a homosexual act, with a minor, regardless of gender, or, miner plus adult in the family? Would very much appreciate clarification, if you please.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@one_wise_man


when you say "pedo" , what do you refer to?


edit to add this line: I don't know what ages tppm is interested in, but:

From the SOL definitions page at:

http://storiesonline.net/docs/code_faq.php

pedo = An adult initiating sexual contact with a pre-pubescent child (boy or girl, 12 or under)

In some legal jurisdictions it means anyone 18 y/o and over who has sex with anyone under 18 y/o. Thus a kid who turned 18 in Tuesday who has sex with his girlfriend that night and she doesn't turn 18 until Thursday is a pedo in those jurisdictions, unless they have a Romeo & Juliette clause - which many don't.

Replies:   xman  tppm
xman

@Ernest Bywater

Thank you for that Sir,

I was under impression that pedophilia was a sexual act, outlawed in most jurisdictions, as an act between an adult and a person under 18.
According to you, two underage people can be pedophiles if they are a day under 18?

Are you sure about that, Sir, and I promise, solemnly, I am not picking a fight with you?

Replies:   xman  Ernest Bywater
xman

@xman

Just looked it up, and according to Merriam Webster and the link you suggested the full definition goes as" "Pedophilia, An adult initiating sexual contact with a pre-pubescent child (boy or girl, 12 or under)

Replies:   tppm
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@xman

In some legal jurisdictions the legal age is 16, some it's 18, and in some they have the R&J clause that says it's legal if they're within a set time range of each other. In most cases if either party is below the age of consent then it's pedophilia for both parties - ayep, a 15 y/o can be charged as a pedophile for having sex with her 15 y/o boy friend as easily as having sex with someone above the age of consent.

Many laws are things written to allow people to feel smug, not to have anything to do with the realities of life - this is especially true of the laws relating to sex.

Years ago pedophilia used to relate only to sexual acts involve pre-pubescent juveniles (ie kids who haven't hit puberty yet, say below the 11 / 12 age group) but not now, today it relates to an age picked arbitrarily by some person writing a law to let people feel superior to others. BTW Consent is not a relevant part of pedo laws.

I seem to recall something in a US news report from some years back about two 16 y/o being done for child porn for a photo they took of themselves together while naked, the age of consent in that state was 16 y/o but the laws on nude photos said 18 - so they got charged. Ain't the law grand!

BTW I very strongly believe sexual acts should be by people acting with consent while sober and fully aware of the ramifications of what they're doing. I also very much doubt anyone in todays society knows what they're doing until after they hit their teens, at what point after that is another issue. I've know 16 y/o people who were more adult than their parents, and 16 y/o people who made 10 y/o seem adult.

edit to fix some typos

further edit - in some places two kids playing the old show me yours and I'll show you mine can be done as pedophiles unless they're above the magic legal age in the local law.

Replies:   xman  tppm  Dominions Son
xman
Updated:

@tppm

Thank you for your response, my "taste" if I can employ that word here, is far from yours, so it seems to me there is no connection I was seeking at the outset, In other words, I do not see, how act of incest flows into act of pedophilia.

(edit, another spelling mistake. I should start paying attention. )

xman

@Ernest Bywater

Very well,

I'm with you here in general, so the conclusion on what we both agree, the legal side is very much arbitrary, confused and inconsistent. I was "hanging" on a definition sited in a dictionary. Silly me. The law does not operate on common grounds. We do live in confused times.
Thanks again.

tppm

@Ernest Bywater

I go with the psychological definition. A pedophile is anyone who is sexually attracted to prepubescent children, regardless of whether they act on that attraction. (People attracted to people between puberty and the age of consent are hebephiles (early teens) and ephebophils (late teens).)

In stories, of course, the attraction is acted on and (here coded gi or boy, for the age, lolita (child initiates) or pedo (adult initiates) for who initiates (codes moot since the age limit was imposed). And coded g or b for the age everywhere else. (Adolescents are coded ft and mt here and f and m everywhere else. (Adults F and M.))

The legal definition (anyone who has sexual intercourse with (rapes, since the "victims" are legally forbidden from consenting) anyone under the age of consent is a pedophile) is bull shit, and, by that definition, all pedophiles are rapists.

P.S. one wise man, there is no inherent connection between pedophilia and homosexuality.

tppm

@xman

"Pedophilia, An adult initiating sexual contact with a pre-pubescent child (boy or girl, 12 or under)


That's the police definition and is bull shit. Pedophilia, like all paraphilias, is defined by attraction, not by action.

Replies:   xman
tppm

@Ernest Bywater

I also very much doubt anyone in today's society knows what they're doing


You should have stopped there, and I would remove "in today's society".

xman

@tppm

Whatever man,
I copied and pasted the definition from a dictionary.

Replies:   tppm
pj

Now THIS is a good example of a degenerating thread. {See what I did there?}
I think most thinking adults recognize that the law is argued on terminology. I mean that the words used and their arrangement is the BASIS for arguing the law.
It's unfortunate that the word pedophile is EQUATED by anyone to be the same as wants sex with minor. It never was before.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

n some legal jurisdictions the legal age is 16, some it's 18, and in some they have the R&J clause that says it's legal if they're within a set time range of each other. In most cases if either party is below the age of consent then it's pedophilia for both parties


Pedophilia is not a term used anywhere in the law in any state in the US. What you are describing is a crime called statutory rape.

PS: I have read elsewhere (on a legal blog) that there is at least one US state that provides a minimum age of consent for females but not for males. So in that state teen on teen sex, only the male would be guilty of statutory rape even if the female was the older of the two.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Dominions Son


Pedophilia is not a term used anywhere in the law


That's true, but only to the same extent there is no term in use in the laws called speeding. The wording used in the law and how the cops and courts describe and have the media describe it aren't always the same. And, in case you missed the point in an earlier post - to be convicted as what the courts call a pedophile does not require the accused to have sexual intercourse with a person under the age of consent while that last is a requirement for statutory rape.

In some legal jurisdictions physical contact isn't required for a charge related to the sexual abuse of a child (since you want exact legal terms and not the commonly accepted shot form) and in some cases the charge can be made when the person concerned is under 18 and above the age of consent and consented to the sex. Now theres a weird legal arrangement.

Edit to add
BTW the legal wording for the act of speeding is actually exceeding the designated speed limit - in some cases the word designated is replaced with another word like set or posted.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@xman

Xman, I haven't read the other responses yet, but I've always seen incest stories (like lesbian romance stories) as fitting into a third category. They're an extension of the Capulets and Montagues of Shakespeare's time. It's love so true is crosses forbidden boundaries. It's being able to cross into forbidden territory for something that's pure and unadulterated. Typically, I'm not that interested in the sex in incest stories, as I am in the romantic angle. After a while, sex is sex and it's mostly plumbing, but it's what the characters have to overcome which motivates me to connect to the characters.

That's a bit literary theory, and probably not what most of you are looking for, but that's always been my attraction to those stories.

Arquilius, be careful how you redo those earlier stories. One thing I've discovered, is that sex stories really don't function well if they're 'too' realistic (i.e. they deal with major issues like rape, betrayal, abuse and manipulation). Even the old stories in the 50s had everyone going hog wild, enjoying themselves, until everyone suffers horribly in the end to satisfy the censors of the time.

The key is, porn needs to be positive (i.e. I'm getting something and it's wonderful. The person I'm raping is also enjoying it, so it's OK). Otherwise, the stories turn into a depressing mish-mosh of unrelenting despair. :(

OneWiseMan, from most study, people who are into pedophilia aren't attracted to boys or girls, they're fascinated by the young, and will abuse each equally. That doesn't always fit into a story's premises, but I think it's good to keep in the back of your mind as you write. It isn't gay or straight, it's the innocence.

Xmen, for most people, it's a crime to have sex with people under 18 (if you aren't), but pedophilia is reserved for those who prefer sex with very young children, at least below 12, but going as far as young babies (see ASSTR for examples).

Replies:   tppm
tppm

@xman

Dictionaries have been known to be wrong.

richardshagrin

@tppm

Welcome to Pessimistic Persons Incorporated. Its clear you qualify for membership.

tppm
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


OneWiseMan, from most study, [most or many or some] people who are into pedophilia aren't attracted to boys or girls, they're fascinated by the young, and will abuse each equally. That doesn't always fit into a story's premises, but I think it's good to keep in the back of your mind as you write. It isn't gay or straight, it's the innocence.


You left an important word out of that, I've inserted three options in square brackets (I would go with "some". (Probably about the same percentage of pedophiles are attracted to both sexes as gyno/andro-philes are bisexual among adults.)) Speaking as a heterosexual pedophile (psychological definition cited above, by me) I'm attracted to girls.

BTW in your comment to Arquillus I think you're expressing your own kinks and squiks, those rules don't apply to everyone, or every story.

IMHO in your comment to Xmen the phrase "very young" is redundant with "children". Adolescents are not children. To me very young children are babies and toddlers, after that they're merely children, until puberty, after which they're adolescents/(very) young adults.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
tppm
Updated:

BTW, to everyone, I apologize for apparently hijacking a thread about why authors write incest stories to one about the definitions of pedophilia.

Bondi Beach

@tppm

BTW, to everyone, I apologize for apparently hijacking a thread about why authors write incest stories to one about the definitions of pedophilia.


I don't think it's hijacking if people follow your lead willingly. Plus, it's hardly the first time threads in this group wander off in different directions.

bb

richardshagrin

@tppm

Hijacking a thread here would be having it wave at Jack and say "Hi, Jack".

There would be lots fewer posts if it weren't for thread drift. And if those threads are interesting and or humorous, its ok with most of us. How else are we going to get hundred or two hundred post threads?

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


be convicted as what the courts call a pedophile does


Sorry, Pedophile is a medical term it is not used by the courts anymore than it is used by the law.

Now there are politicians and media talking heads that do use the term pedophile they way you suggest in talking to the general public. They are wrong in doing so.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Crumbly Writer

@tppm

in your comment to Arquillus I think you're expressing your own kinks and squiks, those rules don't apply to everyone, or every story.

Tppm, my info. on pedophiles is based on research on abusers, habitual offenders who prey on kids, rather than fantasy readers. I was just pointing out that, for many readers, the thinking may be similar.

As for my comment to Arquillus, I wasn't discussing my squicks, but was referencing my own story attempts which didn't work. I'm not saying that rape or manipulation stories are a turn off, just that stories which aren't 'positive' in nature, tend not to work (positive meaning the characters are enjoying what they're doing). In other words, attempts to write 'realistic' porn often fall apart.

Replies:   tppm
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Sorry, Pedophile is a medical term it is not used by the courts anymore than it is used by the law.


say that with a straight face next time you see some judge or cop or prosecutor in the news gloating about putting some dirty, rotten pedophile behind bars for years.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


say that with a straight face next time you see some judge or cop or prosecutor in the news gloating about putting some dirty, rotten pedophile behind bars for years.


Most state judges as well as all DAs are politicians (ADAs are not elected, but most have ambition to be the DA and so should be considered politicians). I have never seen any cop other than a Chief/Sheriff or a PD PR hack (who is not actually a sworn officer) making these kinds of comments. In fact, line cops are discouraged from talking to the press without approval.

These are all political statements made for public consumption. They are also usually deliberate knowing lies to smear the defendant with the general revulsion most people have towards sex with prepubescent children.

You should not rely on political statements for word meanings. Politicians love to use words in a way that stretches or even contradicts their normal meaning in order to confuse or deceive.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

You should not rely on political statements for word meanings.


Nor should you rely on medical or dictionary definitions for word meanings because most laws have their own definitions of many words written into them. In the state I live in we have a number of laws which give the legal definition of a child as 14 y/o, 16 y/o, and 18 y/o for different laws about different things. Some US laws still class a person as a child until 21 y/o

In discussions such as this most people tend to go with the general or public meaning. In the first definition in this I quoted the definition from the SOL definitions because it was about SOL. Things have wandered since then.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

Nor should you rely on medical or dictionary definitions for word meanings


Yes you should words that are very specifically medical terms. The word pedophilia did not exist prior to the psychiatric diagnosis.

People who misuse medical terms because they don't understand them should be corrected, not encouraged.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

People who misuse medical terms because they don't understand them should be corrected, not encouraged.


Tell that to the law makers. The medical fraternity have a definition of what a child is and it's been around for centuries, but bears absolutely no relationship to what a child is according to any law in existence.

Paraphrasing and expanding on what I said in an earlier post: Dictionary definitions rarely match the community definition, and never match the legal definitions.

Replies:   Dominions Son  tppm
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

The medical fraternity have a definition of what a child is and it's been around for centuries,


1. The "medical fraternity" hasn't been around for centuries.

2. The word child is a very different case as it was not coined specifically as a medical term.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son


1. The "medical fraternity" hasn't been around for centuries.


A 3rd century copy of the Hippocratic Oath seems to disagree with the comment above. That shows they had a medical fraternity large enough to want the oath used back then, and that's centuries ago. Records showed that doctors have made professional groups since before the days of the Roman Empire.

As to the point on definition the medical fraternity came up with a definition of what child is, which is sometimes called the biological definition, and defines a child as being between birth and puberty - which matches many dictionary definitions as well. Neither of which match any definitions in the laws.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

A 3rd century copy of the Hippocratic Oath seems to disagree with the comment above. That shows they had a medical fraternity large enough to want the oath used back then


I wouldn't call the healers that they had back then doctors nor what they did medicine. There is almost zero relationship between what they did and modern medicine.

Replies:   richardshagrin
one_wise_man

@tppm

I am bemused by your statement, however it may be differing from my stand point. To debate is to hear other person view.

I must say though, on what grounds you say, and how you support that...."dictionaries have been known to be wrong"? For some reason you've lost me there.

Replies:   tppm
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

As to the point on definition the medical fraternity came up with a definition of what child is, which is sometimes called the biological definition, and defines a child as being between birth and puberty - which matches many dictionary definitions as well. Neither of which match any definitions in the laws.


This is a dispute you need to take up with legislators. My point is that differing definitions of child between law and medicine given that child is a term that originates in neither medicine or law is not a comparable situation to the deliberate misuse of a word that is uniquely a medical term.

tppm
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


Tppm, my info. on pedophiles is based on research on abusers, habitual offenders who prey on kids


That is not a controlled study. For the research to be valid it has to be either of all pedophiles, or of all people as to who is a pedophile, not just sexual predators. That's equivalent to studying human sexuality by only interviewing convicted rapists.

tppm

@Ernest Bywater

but bears absolutely no relationship to what a child is according to any law in existence.


"If the law supposes that," said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat emphatically in both hands, "the law is a ass - a idiot".
--- Charles Dickens, "Oliver Twist" 1838

And that the law is an ass shouldn't be news to anyone.

tppm

@one_wise_man

Well, the incorrect citation you gave is one obvious example.

richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

Doctors ancient or modern have similarities. They charge for providing treatments based on superior knowledge and training they have persuaded others they have. They collect their fees whether their treatment is a success or not. Sometimes the success is not due to their treatment. To recover from a cold takes 7 days. With modern medicine it only takes one week. One big difference between doctors then and doctors now is doctors then used to make house calls. As modern drugs have improved success rates, the level of service has declined.

I have no hard data to back this up but having patients come to doctors has enabled them to see more patients and make more money. The trend to specialization has also raised some doctors incomes. They come to do good, and they do well.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

Doctors ancient or modern have similarities. They charge for providing treatments based on superior knowledge and training they have persuaded others they have.


I wouldn't call ancient doctor's knowledge superior. Much of ancient doctor's so called knowledge was wrong.

Despite the Hippocratic oath, up until the acceptance of germ theory and the advent of modern scientific medicine around 150 years ago, many if not most "medical" treatments were outright harmful to the patient.

Replies:   Lumpy  richardshagrin
Lumpy

@Dominions Son

I would agree with you, even not so ancient doctor's knowledge was very wrong.

Most believe that a poor understanding of infection in the 19th century lead to doctors being the actual result of President McKinley's death. Their attempts to remove a bullet that now seems to not have been life threatening is what actually killed him.

Perv Otaku

@xman

Are they (stories) sought after because society said it is a taboo and we want it nevertheless, or it is against "nature" so we are looking for a kinkiness, or they turn us more then other kind?

Both, really. Look up the Westermarck effect. Nature has a built-in method to try to prevent inbreeding. Most things that just seem wrong to a lot of people also become immoral from a cultural standpoint, that is societal pressures and laws reinforce what nature instills in us automatically. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "the laws of God and men".

Taboo breaking is just plain fun, especially vicariously through roleplaying or fiction, and the more horrible the taboo the more fun it can be. Especially where sex is concerned, it's exciting to be naughty, as naughty as possible.

Replies:   cave jug
richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

I did not say ancient doctors had superior knowledge and training. I said they had persuaded others that they did.

They did some things like set broken bones that did not depend on the germ theory of disease. Limited bleeding was likely as effective as giving an antibiotic pill to kill bacteria when the patient has a virus. Psychosomatic illnesses respond to almost any treatment. Looking wise and doing something can be better than doing nothing for some patients.

Clearly dirty hands delivering babies was responsible for a lot of mother and newborn deaths. Ancient doctors probably left that for midwives so their reputations were not injured. For a while surgeons and doctors were different professions, with a lot of surgery done by barbers. On the basis they had sharp instruments, I suppose. When barbers shaved with straight razors, not that different from a scalpel.

cave jug
Updated:

@Perv Otaku

Hi there,

I do agree, that breaking rules, taboos is fun. I do have difficulty where an adult would follow his desires and fantasies and lead a young inexperienced , half grown child into a situation a child can not experience as a long therm benefit. Hopefully I'm not opening another can of worms, nor I want to be judgmental. PLEASE, it is just my stance and lets not argue in bad faith.

Replies:   PervOtaku
Switch Blayde

@xman

I've written quite a few incest stories. Why? Why do I write any story? An idea came to mind so I wrote it. I guess it's the taboo, too. It's also the age difference more than the incest. The family member is simply convenient.

Replies:   asstrreader
asstrreader

@Switch Blayde

Hello
I've being reading a few good stories ( on Incest ) and I should say Sadly there was only 2. and the rest was not even worth reading!!

Switch Blayde

@asstrreader

I've being reading a few good stories ( on Incest ) and I should say Sadly there was only 2. and the rest was not even worth reading!!


My stories or incest stories in general?

Crumbly Writer

@asstrreader

I've being reading a few good stories ( on Incest ) and I should say Sadly there was only 2. and the rest was not even worth reading!!

I know I'll hate myself for asking, but I fall into Switch's camp: which were the only two worthwhile incest stories?

PervOtaku

@cave jug

I do agree, that breaking rules, taboos is fun. I do have difficulty where an adult would follow his desires and fantasies and lead a young inexperienced , half grown child into a situation a child can not experience as a long therm benefit. Hopefully I'm not opening another can of worms, nor I want to be judgmental. PLEASE, it is just my stance and lets not argue in bad faith.


Most incest stories involve the younger person being the instigator, or the younger person being very enthusiastic when the older person instigates. Also, the "younger" person here is 16 to 18, maybe 15 at the very youngest. (On sites that even allow under-18 characters at all.)

Of course there is a crowd out there that prefers the more pedophile/molestation type stories where the younger participant is more like 12 or under. I rather agree that's delving more into "creepy" than "deliciously taboo".

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