Home « Forum « Story Discussion and Feedback

Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

Rebuilding Civilization - Post Apoc

tjcase

Hi all.

I have read through most of the Post Apoc stories here and really enjoyed 98% of them.

The problem is, that is a fairly new genre for me. And there are no more here to read.

So I ask. Does anyone have some recommendations for Post Apocalyptic Sci-fi in the Amazon world? More on the rebuilding effort. And very much less on the zombies.

Thanks for any ideas.

Tom

Dominions Son

@tjcase

So I ask. Does anyone have some recommendations for Post Apocalyptic Sci-fi in the Amazon world? More on the rebuilding effort. And very much less on the zombies.


The slow, tedious task of rebuilding after the collapse of civilization would not make for the kind of riveting tail that achieves commercial success.

Typically you get two kinds of post apocalyptic stories that can work in a movie or novel format.

1. Surviving the collapse, or not, there in lies the drama, and not all such stories have happy endings.

2. A story set in a world where civilization collapsed and is on the way to recovery. Typically with those stories, you only see a tiny fragment of the rebuilding process and that isn't the central theme of the story.

The truth is that after a full on collapse with total loss of modern infrastructure, it would take decades, possibly several generations to build even a small city-state. That just doesn't fit in a novel/movie format.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
richardshagrin

Starting from near zero and building a civilization can be found in some of the going back in time to pre-modern man times (I don't seem to be able to spell Cro-Magnon, although spell check may have helped) some of the Cmsix type stories, and others who may have been influenced by them are ones I am suggesting. Also there are western stories where pioneers begin civilizing the west. I am sure others can suggest better fits for what I am trying to describe than this. But if you want to observe, in story form, the rise of a modern civilization, there are other story types than just Post-Apocalyptic.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@tjcase

You may want to try out Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series books

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

Starting from near zero and building a civilization can be found in some of the going back in time to pre-modern man times


Sure, if you cal a small tribe/village a civilization.

richardshagrin
Updated:

John and Argent, or maybe one of the sequels (were there more than one?) involved Rome (in Italy) which in my opinion counts as a civilization, at least at some point.

Upon reflection the story I am looking for isn't one by Cmsix especially not John and Argent. I will look around and see if I can find it. I remember it was a go back to the past and had a sequel where the female attached to the hero became a goddess and influenced Rome.

I think I am talking about stories by aubie56:


1 Alice In Wonderland
Action/Adventure
Doug is a 16 year old high school student who falls down a long hole into the wonderland of Stone Age Europe. Some naive ETs are responsible for the mess up. Join Doug and Alice as they jump-start civilization.
[More Info]
Tags: Ma/Fa, mt/Fa, Heterosexual, Science Fiction, Time Travel, Robot, Historical, Humor, White Couple, Violent
Sex Contents: Some Sex
Posted: ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2007‎ ‎10‎:‎30‎:‎20‎ ‎PM Concluded: ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2007‎


2 Alice Does Italy
Action/Adventure
This is the SECOND story in the series. Doug and Alice found Rome and Alice becomes an avatar of Venus. Doug and Alice found a sex cult in order to advance their plan to civilize the world thousands of years ahead of time.
[More Info]
Tags: Ma/Fa, Science Fiction, Time Travel, Robot, Humor, Superhero, Violent
Sex Contents: Some Sex
Posted: ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2007‎ ‎9‎:‎30‎:‎53‎ ‎PM Concluded: ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2007‎ ‎10‎:‎13‎:‎30‎ ‎PM / (Review)

Bondi Beach

@Ernest Bywater

You may want to try out Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series books


Second that.

bb

Capt Zapp

@tjcase

Does anyone have some recommendations for Post Apocalyptic Sci-fi in the Amazon world?


I am currently reading one called 'Life After War' by Angela White that I got free through Kobo or GoodReads (It's on my Kobo reader)

Wheezer
Updated:

Amazon Kindle Ebooks currently has 16994 titles under the Science Fiction & Fantasy/Science Fiction/Post-Apocalyptic filters.

(not sure this will work-) https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_15?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A133140011%2Cn%3A%21133141011%2Cn%3A154606011%2Cn%3A668010011%2Cn%3A158591011%2Cn%3A6361471011&bbn=158591011&ie=UTF8&qid=1477625458&rnid=158591011

Sort by price low to high and you will get a lot of free titles (usually book one of a series) to try.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

Not to self-promote (though that's exactly what I'm doing), but I'm preparing to begin Book 4 of my "Great Death" series. I've been considering it for some time, but I'm not sure another book will have much impact this late after the other stories have been published.

In this one, a single character takes David's cure across the globe, trying to restart small pockets, which can then extend the cure and civilization from there. It's hardly a "rebuilding" process, but it's a start, spread across a wider context than most PA stories.

However, as Richard suggests, it's likely to be a hard sell promoting the book. :(

Dominions Son

@Wheezer


Sort by price low to high and you will get a lot of free titles


Yes, but the original poster is looking for a very particular and likely very small subset of that.

madnige
Updated:

@tjcase


recommendations for Post Apocalyptic Sci-fi in the Amazon world


If you liked Al Steiner's Aftermath, it's very worth trying Larry Niven's Lucifer's Hammer which has a very similar overall storyline but is quite different at anything but the grossest level of detail, and has some very memorable scenes: the surfer trying to surf out the half-mile high tsunami, or driving through a flooded area at the top of a railway embankment taking to the tops of the rails at one point to keep far enough above the water, or "give them back the lightning", the decision to aid and save a nuclear powerplant from the uprising of neo-luddites. And, Hot Fudge Sundae falls on a Tuesday.

ETA:

Another, very different, would be Sherri Tepper's Gate to Women's Country, which is more a slice of the ongoing rebuilding of civilisation. I've mentioned this one before in the forum, too. Another rebuilding tale would be John Wyndham's The Chrysalids

Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

2. A story set in a world where civilization collapsed and is on the way to recovery. Typically with those stories, you only see a tiny fragment of the rebuilding process and that isn't the central theme of the story.

The truth is that after a full on collapse with total loss of modern infrastructure, it would take decades, possibly several generations to build even a small city-state. That just doesn't fit in a novel/movie format.


Eh, I'd disagree on that. Getting back to a 19th Century level of tech wouldn't be too hard. So long as someone with at least a basic level understanding of Engineering and/or Physics is among the survivors. Someone with knowledge of chemistry and/or metallurgy would be an even bigger plus in that regard. The matter that a substantial number of the other survivors would have a general idea of what they're trying to do doesn't hurt either. Even if they're useless for helping figure out the specifics.

It isn't like finding refined metals would be particularly difficult in such a setting. Then it's just a matter of figuring out how to blacksmith things again. Of which, the most important thing at that point is either finding or building a forge that you can use. (Which is where the Engineer would come in handy)

At that point, you can start building tools(which you can't scavenge for some reason?), and work back towards at least having steam engines of certain varieties being put into service. Although trying to build an actual (serviceable) locomotive from scrap will probably take a few years of dedicated effort. I strongly doubt it would take a group of survivors decades to work back to that point unless they were constantly besieged by roving bands of bandits or something. (Which I'm inclined to think would "settle out" after a few years, although exceptions would undoubtedly exist)

Now trying to progress past that point is another matter. As you're really starting to delve into more highly specialized skill sets and other associated things that present different challenges.

I could even see there being at least a telegraph communication system back in operation within a decade or so, depending on how many survived, and their proximity to each other. Those systems are fairly low energy, and low technology all things considered. There isn't a critical shortage of people who could figure out how to "re-invent" those things should conditions warrant it.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

Eh, I'd disagree on that. Getting back to a 19th Century level of tech wouldn't be too hard.


Civilization is more than just technology. Rebuilding governments, laws and social structures at national levels with 19th century communications will be much harder.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
StarFleetCarl

For actual dead tree published books, I like the Lost Regiment series by William Fortschen or the 1632 series. Those are two not quite post apoc but they do build civilizations.

For one that's very much possible, then One Second After and One Year After. Who needs dinosaur killers when we can do it to ourselves with EMP?

Replies:   Lumpy
Not_a_ID

The thing about EMP is that solar flares can do it too.

In the late 19th century they had one that caused telegraph poles to catch fire from induction on the wire. If we had a comparable event today.....

Replies:   StarFleetCarl
miksmit

I know you said to avoid the zombies but you may want to check out the John Ringo series called black tide rising. Very well written and some well placed humor. Maybe S.M. Sterling dies the fire. No zombies and the world loses all electricity and gunpowder. Battle of the swords and spears made out of car parts.

Lumpy

@StarFleetCarl

You should also look at the Island in the Sea of Time series by S.M. Sterling. In the same area as the two you mentioned.

Replies:   Wheezer  StarFleet Carl
Wheezer

@Lumpy

You should also look at the Island in the Sea of Time series by S.M. Sterling. In the same area as the two you mentioned.


It's a prequel/parallel series to the 'Dies the Fire' series by Sterling. You don't have to read one to enjoy the other, but both series revolve around the same event and are excellent.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Dominions Son


Civilization is more than just technology. Rebuilding governments, laws and social structures at national levels with 19th century communications will be much harder.


Yes and no. The British Empire did fairly well without the telegraph, and they spanned much of the actual world, rather than just the "known world" like a number of empires previous. It's a matter of having enough "trusted agents" around, and the ability to get them where they're needed(above and beyond anything the other side can do) to ensure security for your group/nation/empire. Being able to outgun the other guys helps a lot too.

Things like transportation via steam engine, and the telegraph would just facilitate the spread(/resurgence) happening sooner rather than later, as that improves the mobility of your agents, and your ability to get them where they're needed.

The other side is, finding print books which discuss the theory of most of the even moderately high-technology stuff we have today are out there and not too hard to come by. (The books describing transistor theory are legion, essentially letting you skip most applications of vacuum tubes and mechanical computers at that; and gives you the precursor to the Integrated circuit, which is a more sophisticated and much smaller scale application of transistor theory)

As long as copies of that information was preserved somewhere by someone, that speeds things along even more.

When you already know the theory, and have practical examples given, or even better, scavenged equipment you can use to reverse-engineer, the process of moving forward in technology is a fair bit easier. You're not completely reinventing the wheel.

Although admittedly, even getting back to early 1980's level tech, which was largely trasistorized, would likely take decades to get back to because of all of the steps in between.

But most of the present day population wouldn't live through such shifts, they'd be dead to starvation, violence, sanitation issues(even if the knowledge of "good practices" survives), and so on. It would be one hell of a yo-yo ride though.

You're going from 21st century back to a weird 21st century post-apocalyptic scavenger/dark ages level technology level, back to roughly 19th century level tech within a decade or so at best, and back into a mid-late 20th century tech level a few decades after that. Assuming enough of a population base survived and formed a coherent and productive population base.

If it turns into a dystopian future ruled by street thugs and quasi-tribal warlords who can't be bothered to rebuild/"bootstrap" the tech back to something resembling what it was, then all bets are off.

But I'd suspect most (smart) warlords would see the value in trying to bootstrap their way back to high-technology as quickly as they could. After all, the more high-technology stuff they can use that the other can't, the more power they have.

Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

Yes and no. The British Empire did fairly well without the telegraph, and they spanned much of the actual world, rather than just the "known world" like a number of empires previous. It's a matter of having enough "trusted agents" around, and the ability to get them where they're needed(above and beyond anything the other side can do) to ensure security for your group/nation/empire. Being able to outgun the other guys helps a lot too.


The "British Empire" took centuries to build.

Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

Assuming enough of a population base survived and formed a coherent and productive population base.


Forming whoever is left into a coherent and productive population is going to be the really hard part.

Modern national governments are keeping all kinds of petty local rivalries from breaking out into mass violence. When civilization collapses, the immediate survivors will for small clan/tribe groups and they are going to quickly fall into a shoot first maybe ask a few questions later approach to dealing with strangers.

Pulling them back out of that and re-building a common culture is going to take time, a lot of time.

LonelyDad

There's a set of stories by Shakes Peer2B about rebuilding civilization, namely America, after a plague.

http://storiesonline.net/universe/354/phoenicia

The series was never finished, but what is there is very good.

Lugh

@Not_a_ID

The other side is, finding print books which discuss the theory of most of the even moderately high-technology stuff we have today are out there and not too hard to come by. (The books describing transistor theory are legion, essentially letting you skip most applications of vacuum tubes and mechanical computers at that; and gives you the precursor to the Integrated circuit, which is a more sophisticated and much smaller scale application of transistor theory)


Solid-state theory is likely to be less the problem than the chemical engineering in purification of silicon and doping material, followed by problems such as etching at micron and smaller levels.

That being said, I am hearing people trying to jump to high-density integrated circuits, rather than some of the nuanced early solid-state efforts, some lacking theory. Anyone built a crystal radio? Remember moving around the electrode, on the galena crystal, until the best receiving spot were found? Now, when I did that as a kid, I didn't think of it as a solid-state diode. Even less was I aware of the technician trick of adding a third electrode and pumping small amounts of power through it, creating a point-contact transistor, as opposed to a fully solid transistor. Such a device would make a receiver far more capable.

Even in the more advanced world, there were short intermediate steps. IBM accelerated introduction of the early System/360 computers before they really could build multilayer integrated circuits. They had an intermediate method called Solid Logic Technology, where they mechanically stacked single layers.

I can speak better to chemical/pharmacological methods.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Lugh

Yes, but "We have a roadmap, we know generally what do. We just have to figure out how to do it in our present circumstances." Particularly when we know what the practical applications can be.

Is leagues away from "We have no idea where to start." It also is considerably different from the first time around where the people funding said development didn't have much of a clue as to what they were creating would mean to society at large.

But even with said roadmap, that doesn't mean there couldn't be problems when steps get skipped because something important was missed.

Replies:   samuelmichaels
samuelmichaels

@Not_a_ID

Yes, but "We have a roadmap, we know generally what do. We just have to figure out how to do it in our present circumstances." Particularly when we know what the practical applications can be.

The biggest challenge would be to rebuild a society that can afford sustained (multi-year) research and development.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@samuelmichaels

The biggest challenge would be to rebuild a society that can afford sustained (multi-year) research and development.


If they've made it to a 19th Century Steam(punk) technology level, the only limiting factor is population and available support infrastructure(which will combine population and geology). Do you have the people, and more importantly, do you have the people where they need to be to access the things you need. (Or alternatively: can you trade with someone else for it?)

StarFleet Carl

@Lumpy

I have them.

It's an odd thing with me - I like his Draka series and the Island series, but didn't care for the way the Dies the Fire series went.

StarFleetCarl

@Not_a_ID

Actually just saw a show on History or Nat Geo where they discuss that. I suspect, if anything, they went a litle soft on the after effects. They were mostly concerned with how tough it would be to replace all the transformers that would be destroyed. How about what happens to someplace like New York or Chicago with no power for 6 - 9 months?

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@StarFleetCarl

How about what happens to someplace like New York or Chicago with no power for 6 - 9 months?


"Hell on Earth" comes to mind. Chicago is screwed in terms of drinking water and sewage, as their pumps are out of action.

NYC would still be likely to have fresh water in most of the city thanks to a gravity fed aquaduct, and enough pressure to get at least partway up some of its taller buildings.

Not that anyone would want to be above the 5th or 6th floor without elevators. Down isn't so bad, up is another matter. Which isn't to mention most modern buildings aren't built with stairs intended as the primary access. They're constructed to comply with code for "emergency purposes" not general use.

But even NYC would need to contend with its sewage, as any sewage lift stations they have would be out of service, and their treatment plants are going to have "issues" to say the least.

Then we start into ventilation in newer buildings designed around forced air systems, so you can't open the windows...

Subways have no active ventilation, and the trains aren't running anyway(as I understand they're electric; in an EMP scenario, electrical or not matters little, the electronics are likely fried unless the train was deep underground (and the rail power system didn't transmit the consequences to said train) when it happened). No escalator or elevator either, as they'd need electricity to operate.

Then we start to discuss the "fun" of trying to feed everyone in those respective cities(and others). There still are a number of "mechanical diesels" out there, but not enough to move that much freight. Pretty much any diesel engine/truck newer than the early 1990's is going to need a rebuild to replace fried electronics.

On that note, California is completely fucked c/o CARB(California Air Resources Board), as chances are good that if that truck was in reasonable working order when tighter emissions standards hit, the truck left the state. In a touch of irony, Mexico in particular would be in decent shape, as they have whole fleets of 30+ year old trucks still in freight service. In the USA those would mostly be farm trucks outside of California, but even the farmers generally run newer equipment.

But getting back to NYC/Chicago. No refrigeration in service due to no power, no viable transportation options(electronics are dead), most tall buildings have become largely unusable. Sewers aren't working as they should, and sewage can't be treated anyway. Chicago has no usable water supply, probably within hours.

Nationally, grain elevators and other bulk storage facility will have issues due to no electricity for moving things. Factory lines for nearly all large scale food(stuff) production are down for the count. Which means that even if you could move the product, they're not making more of it.

Best you could hope for in a solar EMP event is hope that it doesn't hit the lower latitudes in any significant way... And that those areas that dodge the EMP have facilities that can be used to bootstrap things back. For the U.S. that's hoping Utah, Colorado, and Kansas largely delineate the southern extreme of the impacted areas.

If Southern California, Arizona, and Texas escape we're (globally and nationally) hurting like Hell, but could recover, albeit with massive loss of life and other economic disruption that most of the "1st World" would likewise share the pain on. If they get zapped as well...

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

Then we start into ventilation in newer buildings designed around forced air systems, so you can't open the windows...


That's partly because modern skyscrapers are tall enough that there are pressure differential issues from top to bottom. The building is pressurized to ground level air pressure all the way up to the top.

Even a 0.5 PSI differential between inside and outside could make opening a window a catastrophic event.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

Chimney effects make for fun times even without a pressure gradient. The temperature differential alone is enough.

Jim S

What are the parameters of this post apocalyptic world? First question: how much population is left? A lot of the more extreme stories project 99% population loss. If the planet is all of a sudden at 70 million and the USA at 3 million, level of technology won't make much difference. Much more important will be social structures.

Civilization under such a population IMHO would devolve into village type units at first. Don't believe it? Look at street gang cultures in large cities nowadays. Groups would necessarily merge for common defense before technology could reassert itself.

The most important of that would be metallurgy. Who knows how to make steel anymore? And can you find the materials to do so. Oh, you're finding scrap left over from what was there? How do you melt and reshape the stuff?

Let's not forget about growing food. That's how civilization got started in the first place -- hunter/gatherers figured out agriculture. What is currently stored can only last so long. A year? Two at most? D/K.

What if more population is left though? Wouldn't it be easier? Doubt it. Need more food to keep everyone alive.

My personal opinion is that it would be a long, slow haul. Remember that once the current generation is no more, most of the knowledge would die with it. Books would still exists, true. Unless the libraries are destroyed also. Several of the stories I've read rely on university libraries as saving graces. Well, maaaaaaybe it could work out that way. Then again, maybe not.

All interesting speculation.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Jim S

Depends on the scenario. Solar EMP for example could range anywhere from fully global to mildly annoying(unless you live in Northern Alaska) to any step in between. People nearest to the Equator have the best chance of not being impacted by such a solar event. While the Northern Hemisphere is more vulnerable than even the southern. Not just because of population near the respective pole, but because the Northern Magnetic Pole is the strongest, Earth's own Magnetosphere is going to direct most of that energy north, while the southern pole picks up most of the remaining balance.

The other thing is in the event of a Solar EMP, the flare doesn't kill directly. What kills is going to be the consequences of electronic devices failing from induced currents(even in Cars, Trucks, Trains, and Planes) while more generic electric devices simply stop receiving power needed to operate due to transformers blowing up and circuit breakers tripping.

So while a bunch of people would die in the first few minutes, it won't be until a couple days later when water supplies start impacting people, and food becomes critical in many areas right after that. Which would probably be when the killing really starts. For the areas that escape that chaos, they're probably going to see the death rate start mounting by the end of the first week despite their best efforts.

Viral contagion scenarios, and other such post-apocalyptic stories play by other rules, but get to much the same place, except some people have a chance to get warning in advance and prepare to some degree. For what little good it may do them.

Replies:   Grant
Jim S

What you're describing is the process of the apocalypse. I was addressing recovery from same.

A couple of other thoughts occurred to me since my initial post. Civilization seems to proceed from agriculture to engineering to metallurgy. The next leap forward didn't occur until the Industrial Revolution where carbon based energy began to be used extensively in place of manual labor. Then the Computer Revolution occurred which spawned the Information Age. If the human race is recovering from near extinction, I'd suspect it would likely follow the same chronology. Maybe the intervening steps wouldn't be as long if knowledge could be preserved. Anyhow, if I were to write such a story, that would be my structure.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
tjcase

Thanks for all the ideas and recommendations.

And for the discussion....

My thoughts on the societal ideas is that people would fall back to almost a quasi-feudal system. IF it were to be only millions left on earth.
The whole Darwin strong survive idea. At least at the first. Until larger communities and more people can come together.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Jim S


What you're describing is the process of the apocalypse. I was addressing recovery from same.


Although the term itself is confusing for other reasons. The pop-culture(read: Hollywood) take not withstanding.

"Apocalypse" is Greek. It can be translated as "uncovering" or more literally as "through the concealed" (meaning disclosure of the hidden; in theological terms "lifting the veil" and revealing God's will or other comparable concepts)

But as the second coming is tied heavily into concepts of unleashing "God's Wrath" upon the Earth, invoking lots of fire and brimstone among other things... yeah.

But that's a digression. The thing about recovery from "an apocalyptic event" does depend in large part on the nature of said event, and the processes it unleashed. How things fall apart is going to play a major role in what's left for those who survived the full ordeal until some kind of stability is restored.

If a contagion rips through the population and kills of 99.9% of everybody within days or a couple weeks, that means there likely will be all kinds of supplies and caches of useful stuff just about everywhere. As the technology still works, you just need fuel or power to support it. (And eventually parts to repair it, and the knowledge of how the do so)

While an EMP scenario means most tech is useless as it got fried. It also means supplies are going to be a lot more scarce because the population outlived its ability to sustain itself. Rather than dropping dead before (nonmedical) supplies ran out, leaving a largely intact but no longer maintained infrastructure behind.

Likewise meteors storms, asteroids, super-volcanoes, etc all bring their own mix of sudden and sometimes random population and infrastructure losses in the same go. Which could then morph into outliving their ability to sustain themselves, creating a secondary social collapse, and further destruction of things that could aid recovery.

Depending on the nature of the viral contagion, that recovery could actually be the easier one to recover from vs any other option on a global scale. As to near-global(entire regions remained intact and unharmed), I'm not sure which one has decent prospects.

Replies:   StarFleetCarl
Grant
Updated:

@Not_a_ID

due to transformers blowing up and circuit breakers tripping.


An EMP isn't going to have any effect on transformers- they are very tough devices.

Other than what would effectively be a direct hit, power and transformers can survive lightning strikes which subject them to much more current and voltage than any form of EMP ever could ever produce.
Back in my previous job i've repaired & written off countless devices that had been hit by lightning. Even those that were damaged beyond repair, if they had a mains transformer, it was still OK (although the thermal fuse in them was often deceased).

Replies:   Not_a_ID  REP
Not_a_ID

@Grant

Back in my previous job i've repaired & written off countless devices that had been hit by lightning. Even those that were damaged beyond repair, if they had a mains transformer, it was still OK (although the thermal fuse in them was often deceased).


....Which still leaves the inductor part of the transformer out of action because the support equipment attached to it were blown to Hell. Support equipment which collectively is normally referred to "as part of the Transformer" by lay persons as well as more than a few people in the industry. Knowing that a lay person will likely interpret it as such even if explained to them.

REP

@Grant

You may find the following article of interest.

http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/characteristics-of-lightning-strokes

As described in the article, there are several methods used to protect electrical lines and equipment connected to the lines from damage. Strikes that hit the lines that carry the power can damage equipment and the lines.

For a lightning bolt, the grounded line located above the line carrying the power is most likely to absorb the strike since the bolt's path is cloud to ground.

EMP from a nuclear event impacts the lines on more of a horizontal plane and induces voltages in the tens of thousand volt range. Actual voltage is dependent on the bomb's yield and distance to the electrical line. While the voltage is not as high as the lightning strike, it is still sufficient to induce a current that is high enough to damage any unprotected equipment connected to the line.

Part of the problem with an EMP induced current is the voltage pulse is only present for a few microseconds, while the voltage from a lightning strike is present for about 100 usec. Both will damage current digital circuitry typically found in private homes and businesses. The older over voltage protection (OVP) technology cannot respond fast enough to short the pulse's current to ground, so the pulse current reaches the equipment connected to the line. The newer technology has a nanosecond response time so it is capable of protecting the equipment. However there is an additional factor relating to OVP equipment, and that is some of the OVP equipment 'burns out' when subjected to an excessive voltage, while others can withstand multiple OVP trips.

LonelyDad

Another factor is that a lightening strike is a point even for all intents and purposes. A lot of voltage, a lot of current, but the range of aftereffects is limited. An EMP pulse, while not as much voltage or current, is a wide ranging event extending over many miles, with a good possibility of the effects arriving at switching and transformer equipment from several directions at once. I am especially thinking of the transfer stations that tap off of the very high voltage cross-country lines and step down to the middle high voltage area feeders. Imagine the protection equipment being hit from both sides at almost the same time.

Replies:   Lugh
Lugh

@LonelyDad

An EMP event can produce three kinds of pulse:
*E1, or early phase. This is near-instantaneous and caused by gamma radiation of a nuclear burst. It can cause direct damage to semiconductors, and flashover in the lower-voltage distribution system.
*E2 is closest to lightning.
*E3 is a subsequent, slower-rising, longer-duration pulse that creates disruptive currents in long electricity transmission lines, resulting in damage to electrical supply and distribution systems connected to such lines.
"Because of the similarity between solar-induced geomagnetic storms and nuclear E3, it has become common to refer to solar-induced geomagnetic storms as "solar EMP."

Replies:   Not_a_ID
StarFleetCarl

@Not_a_ID

super-volcanoes


Speaking of those ... while I'm normally a fan of Harry Turtledove, don't bother wasting time reading this series of books of his.

Seriously - he blew up Yellowstone, and while there's issues, he completely missed the societal breakdown and after effects. And the family that's at the center of the books, it's really a who cares about them thing.

Here's one (of many) nit-picks I have with those books - you have this super-volcano blow up, which causes all this shaking. You think that the every major earthquake fault in the country isn't also going to cut loose? Niven and Pournelle sure did in Lucifer's Hammer when they hit the earth with a small comet. And don't get me started on atmospheric dust ...

Jim S

Supervolcanos were mentioned in passing in several previous comments and that started me thinking. I don't think that I've seen any post apocalyptic story, here or elsewhere, based on near extinction due to one. That's surprising given that the human race was nearly made extinct by one somewhere around 71,000 years ago (Toba). Analysis of DNA suggests that earth's total population was reduced to something like 10,000 by that event. Al Steiner's Aftermath was an asteroid/comet/whatever strike. And was probably as well done as any could have been. There is just a wide open field re: super-volcano left there for an enterprising author.

Not_a_ID

@Lugh

An EMP event can produce three kinds of pulse:
*E1, or early phase. This is near-instantaneous and caused by gamma radiation of a nuclear burst. It can cause direct damage to semiconductors, and flashover in the lower-voltage distribution system.
*E2 is closest to lightning.
*E3 is a subsequent, slower-rising, longer-duration pulse that creates disruptive currents in long electricity transmission lines, resulting in damage to electrical supply and distribution systems connected to such lines.
"Because of the similarity between solar-induced geomagnetic storms and nuclear E3, it has become common to refer to solar-induced geomagnetic storms as "solar EMP."

Well, that makes it a little more cheery. Most electronic devices, including vehicle control systems might survive a Solar EMP. However, the power grid is still blown to Hell. But backup generators and other such measures can help tide that over for critical services(like sewer and water, most large communities have some kind of backup power plan for the grid going down for those services in particular... that sewage treatment plants are decent sources of combustible gases certainly helps).

Still not a pleasant situation, most (noncritical) places that didn't have an alternative option would still remain "dark" while they go through and rebuild practically every power station.

That's months of work even if they have the material on hand. And that could be a cluster as they'd probably try to Federalise the rebuild process. So even if your local co-op had the means and equipment needed to restore services to part of your town. They wouldn't be able to because their spares are being commandeered to restore service "somewhere critical."

sejintenej

Cumbre Vieja on Gran Canaria is a bit frightening. Still active, if it went up it could trigger a major landslip causing a megatsunami to cause havoc along the entire east coast of America (Canada to Tierra del Fuego) and the west coasts of Europe and Africa. In addition it would put ash into the atmosphere.
Of course, as mentioned, Yellowstone is also a great fear but that is the USA and ash in the atmosphere which could wipe out life.

We just need to remember that, medically, life is a terminal condition.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Not_a_ID
Dominions Son

@sejintenej

Of course, as mentioned, Yellowstone is also a great fear but that is the USA and ash in the atmosphere which could wipe out life.


Yellowstone is a super volcano. A major eruption at Yellowstone would be a global extinction level event.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son


Yellowstone is a super volcano. A major eruption at Yellowstone would be a global extinction level event.

Missing a word there. It is a "near extinction level event" because it is survivable, just not for everything.

He's also somewhat correct about it being "Mostly a US/Canada thing" as the ashfall from that eruption is only going to be immediately catastrophic in North America. While the ash cloud will be a long term global disaster due to the (mega)volcanic winter that lasts for years.

Losing the American and Canadian Great Plains and Midwest under up to several feet of volcanic ash doesn't help either, as a lot of the world gets their food from there.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

as the ashfall from that eruption is only going to be immediately catastrophic in North America.


The eruption itself is likely to be immediately catastrophic for most of North America, before the ash even starts to fall.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@sejintenej

Cumbre Vieja on Gran Canaria is a bit frightening. Still active, if it went up it could trigger a major landslip causing a megatsunami to cause havoc along the entire east coast of America (Canada to Tierra del Fuego) and the west coasts of Europe and Africa. In addition it would put ash into the atmosphere.


There is considerable debate as to the veracity and accuracy of those models. That said, I definitely wouldn't want to be below 100 feet above sea level anywhere near the Atlantic sea basin(including gulf of Mexico) for the next 24 hours after that landslide lets go.

In some areas(eastern Atlantic) I would probably be trying for even higher ground, and as the Japanese discovered, stay away from coastal canyons and mountain passes. The tsunami surge will "funnel" into there, which means it reaches higher, and moves even further inland. And they were only dealing with about 30 feet of surge at worst.

But with that landslide scenario, while by far the most likely "doomsday event" to happen in my lifetime, it still remains restricted to the Atlantic basin. Most of the world won't get hit by that event. They'll just feel the economic fallout from it.

The Pacific NW Tsunami is another one that's "coming due" that has a record of being downright nasty, but it's impact would be more limited. Not that its more limited scope gives much comfort to those in coastal Oregon/Washington/British Columbia.

Speaking of that region, Mount Rainer(so?) is supposed to be "in interval" as well, and it has a history of sending large (30+ foot thick) Lahore flows through Tacoma which could make things really bad in the SeaTac area in its own right.

"Nice enough" area to live in and visit, but I think I could do without the greatly increased risk of death by either high speed volcanic landslide or tsunami.

Replies:   sejintenej
Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

The eruption itself is likely to be immediately catastrophic for most of North America, before the ash even starts to fall.


Doubtful, the entire western U.S. is highly seismic segmented, unlike the eastern part of the continent. From 400 miles away you might notice some slight shaking in the event of a 6.7 earthquake(speaking from experience), but not much more. Now granted, a mega-eruption that can put ash into high orbit is going to be well up there on the Richter Scale, but there's no reason to think it'll be outright devastating to structures already hardened against strong earthquakes, particularly in areas hundreds of miles away.

Now granted, the people within the initial 100 to 200 miles are going to have "other" problems to contend with. If the shockwaves don't kill them, the pyroclastic bombs it's throwing into the air probably will. And then we have the pyroclastic flows to contend with...

But a lot of this is conjecture at the moment, the last supervolcanic eruption was over 70,000 years ago. The last time Yellowstone went off was nearly 3/4 of a million years ago. We know generally what it's going to do, but we don't know much as to the specifics of how.

We may have no warning signs at all, or it might start doing some other "weird things" first, which if interpreted correctly, gives us weeks or even months/years to evacuate and prepare.

Replies:   Dominions Son  LonelyDad
Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

Doubtful, the entire western U.S. is highly seismic segmented


West of the Rockies yes, but the area between the Appalachians and the Rockies, is not so segmented.

Earthquakes on the New Madrid fault system have caused minor damage to buildings in Chicago and Milwaukee.

Replies:   LonelyDad
LonelyDad

@Not_a_ID

I'm not worried about earthquake damage as I am the several other active (or semi-dormant) volcanoes that will probably go off in a sympathetic reaction. I just ran down the list of the top 10 most dangerous volcanoes in North America, and all but two were in the Northwest & central California area. Mt. Saint Helens is still erupting slightly, and several others are entering their 'more possible' windows.

LonelyDad

@Dominions Son

Having experience a minor earthquake in Cincinnati in the 1980s, I went and checked. There have been ten quakes of 2.4 to 4.5 magnitude in the last 33 years. All of the epicenters were at least 10km down, and located within the Ohio/Indiana/Kentucky tri-state corner. My understanding is that there are a lot of other minor faults like this spread all over the Midwest between the Alleghenies and the Rockies.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@LonelyDad


There have been ten quakes of 2.4 to 4.5 magnitude in the last 33 years.


True, but there were bigger ones in the early 20th century, in the 5.5-7 range, and the geological record shows 8+ quakes 500-1000 years ago. Because seismic waves travel farther and dissipate more slowly in the mid-west than on the eastern or western seaboards, an 8+ from New Madrid would do massive damage across the entire mid-west.

While a quake that strong is unlikely from New Madrid, it is not impossible.

ETA:

Just as it could trigger other smaller volcanoes, an eruption of the Yellowstone super volcano could ring New Madrid like a bell.

sejintenej

@Not_a_ID

The Pacific NW Tsunami is another one that's "coming due" that has a record of being downright nasty, but it's impact would be more limited. Not that its more limited scope gives much comfort to those in coastal Oregon/Washington/British Columbia.

There have already been a few according to Native American stories, Chinese records and geological surveys. One of them is supposed to have started off SF and continued north as far as Alaska taking a long time to get there. I suggest areas as far afield as Japan, Phillipines, Indonesia and China would also be seriously affected and those have great economic importance.
Don't forget that the tidal wave from Krakatoa was recorded in Britain (though it was too minor to cause problems).

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@sejintenej

It was Japan who had record of an "unexplained Tsunami" back in the early 1700's. Which happens to match evidence of a major tsunami hitting Washington about the same time.

Difference is, the tsunami that hit Japan, while likely a bit more significant than what hit the U.S. after Japan's latest round with a major Tsunami. Still wasn't as severe as what they'd normally see from a locally generated one.

Now on the American side, that means the surge that happens is likely to be much more significant than anything recently observed in Japan or Sumatra.

Also, the Japanese tsunami and the Sumatran Tsunami respectively did get tracked in the Atlantic as well. But when the wave can be measured as a handful of inches,the destructive potential just isn't there.

Replies:   sejintenej
LonelyDad

I remember reading an article about the above mentioned Atlantic islands and the high likelihood of a major slip and of the tsunami that would result. Part of it talked about a study done for the New York harbor area that posited that the shape and configuration of the harbor is such that it would magnify the tsunami to the point of flooding much of Manhattan island and the ajoining areas on the other side of the harbor.

Replies:   jimh67
sejintenej

@Not_a_ID

It was Japan who had record of an "unexplained Tsunami" back in the early 1700's. Which happens to match evidence of a major tsunami hitting Washington about the same time.

I think you are referring to the great Cascadia earthquake of 26th January 1700. Surprisingly it is not included in tsunamis hitting China though 12foot waves were reported as causing damage in Japan.

This fault is reported as causing four major events in the past 1600 years - that of 1700 was 9.0 on the Richter scale

One Chinese tsunami one occurred in 1536 killing over 29,000 people at Haiyan, and the reported run-up height of this event is 20 market feet or 6.7m. The place is near the mouth of Hangzhou Bay. Another tsunami hit the same place in 1458, leading to 18000 deaths.

I haven't yet found a Chinese record for the early 1700s but there are two - 1776 and 1778 causing 10000 and "countless" (another record suggests 40000+ in 1778) deaths

Those mentioned are those of "unknown origin but with significant death tolls", the earliest on the list being 1045. Therefore they are not necessarily
associated with western American quakes - there are faults off the Chinese coast

Replies:   graybyrd
jimh67

@LonelyDad

If your writing a thriller, trying to stop the terrorists from using their small nuke to cause that landslide would be a good plot line. A lot more bang for the buck so to speak than setting it off on Wall Street.

Not_a_ID

Indeed

Harold Wilson

@tjcase

Steve Stirling (writes as 'S.M. Stirling') has a whole series set in a post-apocalyptic end-of-technology-magic-returns universe. It's commercial, available as hardcover, softcover, etc. on Amazon. Stirling is a fairly well-known SF writer.

John Ringo, another fairly successful writer, has a Zombie-Apocalypse series that's fairly popular. Look for "Under a Graveyard Sky," the first in the series. It's good stuff, fairly light-hearted as these things go.

On SOL, read ElSol's ZWV&c. (http://storiesonline.net/s/71259/zombies-werewolves-vampires-and-other-improbable-things) It's another light-hearted look at post-zombie-apocalypse teenage angst.

Replies:   richardshagrin  Lugh
richardshagrin

@Harold Wilson

Stirling is a fairly well-known SF writer.
John Ringo, another fairly successful writer

I think I understand the desire to be careful in describing other authors, but using "fairly" damns with faint praise. I think it would be fair to say both are well known and successful.

Replies:   Harold Wilson
Lugh

@Harold Wilson

Steve Stirling (writes as 'S.M. Stirling') has a whole series set in a post-apocalyptic end-of-technology-magic-returns universe. It's commercial, available as hardcover, softcover, etc. on Amazon. Stirling is a fairly well-known SF writer.


FYI, he has an active Facebook group and will discuss his writing. There's an excellent fan base.

rkimmelerre

@tjcase

My suggestions are all published books. Not sure how many of them are available electronically.

Alas, Babylon by Pat Frank is about a small 50's town in Florida and how it fares after a nuclear war. It's the earliest example of the post-apoc genre I'm aware of, and definitely one of the best.

Hiero's Journey by Sterling Lanier is on the opposite end of the realism spectrum from Alas, Babylon. It takes place thousands of years in the future in a ruined and changed North America. Our Hero is Hiero Desteen, a psychic Canadian war-priest who sets off southward in search of a mythical device called a computer, which his order needs to correlate all the data they've gathered about the Unclean and their horrible Leemute foot soldiers. If that's not enough to interest you, in the course of his travels he meets a hot chick and a telepathic bear. If that's not enough to interest you, he rides a war moose named Klootz. If that's not enough to interest you, you have no joy in your soul.

You said no zombies, but how about mobile carnivorous plants? The Day Of The Triffids by John Wyndham takes place in a world where the titular dangerous plants are herded and "milked" much like animal livestock. It's easy to avoid their poisonous stingers with proper equipment and training. Easy if you can see, at least, so when a mysterious meteor shower blinds 99+% of the population the triffids get loose and start murdering the survivors. This really is a proto-zombie story, and as far as I know predates all examples of what we think of as modern zombies but hits many of the same themes. It's a great read and definitely deals with trying to survive and rebuild in a world that's no longer safe for humanity.

Lest Darkness Fall by L. Sprague De Camp is a pre-apocalypse story set in the past. An archaeologist is somehow transported to Rome in about 500 AD. He decides to rescue Europe from the Dark Ages, as one does. To that end he gathers personal money and power and also brings civilization forward by "inventing" distilling, Arabic numerals, the printing press, newspapers and semaphore telegraphs. He also uses his knowledge of military and political tactics to become the power behind various thrones, though he never does manage to figure out gunpowder. Great story.

Steelheart by Brandon Sanderson is set after an apocalypse brought on by superhumans. People with superpowers started appearing ten or fifteen years before the start of the book. Problem is, they were evil. All of them. No heroes. So naturally they took over the country and rule what amount to city-states. The main character is a young man whose father was killed by the titular Steelheart, who now rules what used to be Chicago. He knows that every super has a weakness that can kill them, and he's absolutely determined to kill Steelheart.

sharkjcw

Andre Norton "Star Man's Son 2250 AD" published in 1952 About a young man scavenging for food and material in destroyed cities and fighting Giant bipedal rats.

graybyrd
Updated:

@sejintenej

Washington State just failed (rather miserably!) a major Cascadia Fault emergency exercise. It's the official opinion of FEMA that if (when) a historically typical magnitude 9 earthquake occurs in the Pacific NW region, it will be the greatest natural disaster in US history.

There's an excellent book recently published, "Cascadia Rising" that explains past, present, and future expectations. And yes, the tsunami effect will have severe consequences for the entire Pacific basin.

Most interesting is the precarious geographical situation of the west coast. The population centers sit on a narrow band running north and south, squeezed between the shoreline and the 'great wall' of the Cascade mountain range. The I-5 interstate highway system runs down this narrow corridor, and is expected to be broken in hundreds of places by bridge collapses and landslides. Airport runways will buckle and break (many are built on fill that will liquify). Ferry terminals will collapse and roads leading to them will be impassable. So we lose truck, emergency vehicle, air and ferry transport serving millions of people.

There aren't nearly enough helicopters available for emergency aid, and there'll be no way to move masses of food, fuel, and emergency supplies.

Hospital beds are in extremely short supply and most will be damaged; virtually all will be inaccessible.

The entire coast population will be separated into isolated pockets unable to reach each other, all waiting for help from the east through E-W access corridors through mountain passes closed by bridge collapses and landslides.

One example of the far-reaching effect: Bend, Oregon (far inland in eastern Oregon) has been informed by FEMA to plan on over 100,000 refugees straggling in from the west. Bend is a very small town. Consider the impact on services there.

Washington coast residents are now being advised to maintain a supply of potable water, food, and medicine for several weeks--which is too little. Residents here should plan on three months, for starters.

A Cascadia event would make a very good apocalyptic scenario. No need to go with a world-wide scenario. This one event could bring the US to its knees, all negative effects considered.

Replies:   REP
Not_a_ID

Well, you also have a "slip" of the San Andreas around Palm Springs, no Tsunami. But lateral movements of up to 22 feet are not unheard of. Buh-bye (Colorado River) California Aqueduct, most highways will be useless for large trucks, even before factoring in landslides and bridge failures.

Most of the west coast is a death trap just waiting to be sprung under the right conditions, the saving grace is it only "springs" every so many centuries. But that doesn't help the people who get caught by it.

REP

@graybyrd

Most plans made to deal with the aftereffects of a natural disaster are a joke.

I've lived in the SF Bay Area and now in San Diego. I tried to read a bit about the plans to evacuate both of those areas, but gave up laughing at the stupidity of the planners.

Their idea appeared to be we would all get in our cars and calmly drive to an evacuation area out of the coastal area.

They totally ignored the fact that people panic and do not behave in a calm rational manner. They ignored the fact that most people don't maintain a full tank of gas. They ignored the fact that the roads might be impassable. They ignored the fact that X million people cannot evacuate over just a few roads, assuming that those roads are serviceable and not blocked by the vehicles that will breakdown.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  graybyrd
Not_a_ID

@REP

They ignored the fact that X million people cannot evacuate over just a few roads, assuming that those roads are serviceable and not blocked by the vehicles that will breakdown.


Or run out of gas, or be driven by either complete morons or raging assholes who will be driving in such a manner as to cause other drivers to get in accidents. Perhaps with the guilty party, perhaps not.

Which isn't to mention the people who don't understand how a traffic merge works, so they crowd their way to the front of the line, turning a process that should involve free flowing traffic, albeit at a slightly reduced speed, into a cluster of stop and go traffic.

graybyrd

@REP

Most plans made to deal with the aftereffects of a natural disaster are a joke.

Agreed. In fairness, I've read numerous admissions by emergency planners that evacuations are unworkable. Consider the chaos of hurricane evacuations, with days advance notice and undamaged routes. The angry congestion and vehicle breakdowns become major obstacles. Hell, I've been frustrated driving big truck in construction zones, where "Merge Left" signs are arrayed for three miles prior. All that does is cause most drivers to race ahead, ignoring the inevitable, and arriving at the choke point and traffic jam caused by everyone attempting to crowd in at the last minute.

Even a rolling blockade by big trucks, attempting to force people to merge and enable the traffic flow to continue, is resented and has even resulted in control-freak State Police ticketing the big trucks for "obstructing." I once had an SUV pass my truck on the right, barreling at 50 mph down the grass strip beside the breakdown lane that I was covering as part of the "force merge" tactic. He skidded, weaved violently, and almost rolled before he regained control and sped to the choke point a mile ahead, and was forced to a dead stop. Moral of the story: any orderly evacuation attempt will be defeated by such angry and disorderly idiots.

During the recent Cascadia Rising exercise, it was reported that some of the participants got pretty hot with each other. Example: the WSDOT emergency center was asked their estimate to clear a "major landslide" that had blocked I-5.

"Three days at the soonest," they answered.

"What? How the hell are our emergency crews going to get to the disaster area? Can't you people move faster than that?"

The screaming match began, and this was only an exercise of "what if" scenarios.

I've experienced a 7.3 earthquake. My two-story log home and our village was close to the epicenter. It was violent, roaring, and frightening. It killed some people, and raised Idaho's highest mountain by another fifty feet! But worse that that... were the successive aftershocks, one following another, and each of them a major earthquake in its own right. One finds oneself enraged and swearing uncontrollably after a time, as they keep coming. I would not care to be attempting to secure damaged bridges, or going into damaged buildings for survivors, or be setting up aid stations in areas already weakened by the main quake. A 6.0 or 5.5 aftershock can wreak bloody hell in an already devastated and vulnerable situation. Responder training is very effective. Don't become a needless victim.

Realizing that disaster plans are mostly a placebo, that resources are extremely limited and dispersed, the only effective solution is to plan ahead, stockpile, make plans with neighbors for mutual support, and keep one's water, fuel, and food reserves recycled and restocked. Plan on living without sewage, water, and electric utilities.

One last interesting point: thanks to the American "squick" factor involving nasty poo, no plan I've seen ever addresses what families need to do about bodily waste. The closest I've seen is "fill the bathtub for flush water." Oh... call for a porta-potti to be delivered? Right-o! Sewage lines and treatment plants will be knocked out along with water mains and power lines.

Here's a tip (really useful for your next Apocalypse scenario. This is practical. Cruising boats are coming to use this method (albeit a bit shinier and much more expensive): a five-gallon pail, a plastic trash bag liner, a cheap toilet seat, and a big bag of peat moss or sawdust pellets or even shredded newsprint. Put a couple handfuls in the bottom; poo and cover lightly. Repeat as needed. This will last two people for a few weeks. Do NOT pee in the bucket It's too much liquid. Pee is essentially harmless. Dispose of it outside. When the poo bag compost mix is full, find a dedicated place to put it, preferably a place where natural soil breakdown can occur. Start a new bag in the bucket. Problem solved. No big sanitation or disease situation.

Oh, that boat thing? There's one called "AirHead" and it costs a thousand bucks. Basically the same approach as a bucket and a plastic garbage bag with peat moss.

Replies:   Dominions Son  REP  REP
Harold Wilson

@richardshagrin

I don't. I know of several SF fans who don't know who they are, haven't heard of them or read them. So they're not even universal names in the SF community. Hence, "fairly."

Dominions Son
Updated:

@graybyrd


Here's a tip (really useful for your next Apocalypse scenario. This is practical. Cruising boats are coming to use this method (albeit a bit shinier and much more expensive): a five-gallon pail, a plastic trash bag liner, a cheap toilet seat, and a big bag of peat moss or sawdust pellets or even shredded newsprint.


What you are describing is a make shift composting toilet.

You can also buy commercially built composting toilets if you are really planning ahead.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Yes, I'm well aware of that. However, in many areas of the US there is rigid opposition by many (really, too numerous to list here) housing, zoning, city, and state authorities. Any handling of human waste outside the traditionally, certified, conventional processes is subject to severe suspicion.

That said, there are areas where composting toilets are seen as a great benefit. Washington State has for years used Clivus Multrum composting toilets in its state parks. The federal parks still use concrete vault pit toilets. The stench from those shit pits is unbelievable; the compost toilets are quite inoffensive.

My point, really, is that the home-made bucket model is practical for everyone from a suburban acreage to a Seattle hi-rise apartment dweller. The components can be stored in a closet with other emergency supplies, and assembled when needed for use. It's so cheap that if it's never used, there's no sacrifice. And if necessary, the full bags of compost can be tied off and tossed in the garbage dumpster along with the dirty disposable diapers (which the authorities have not yet dared to ban, although its tantamount to throwing tons of raw shit in our trash each day).

The boat models do solve a huge cruising problem, as federal and state authorities are going to extreme ends to pick the "low-hanging fruit" of recreational boat toilets, while failing to deal with far worse pollution sources. A boat compost toilet eliminates the dreaded poo overboard but does not solve the urine problem (which is accepted as pathogenic, but is still strictly forbidden for overboard discharge).

If a cabin boat has no toilet, it needs meet no other requirements. And an open boat full of fishermen on the water all day has no toilet and is unregulated. Therefore both tend to adopt the old cedar bucket solution. "Bucket and chuck it."

The key element for emergency situations is to make it accessible, affordable, simple, and ready-to-hand. Commercial units do not meet that criteria; they are permanent installation that require a substantial outlay and dedicated installation. And there's another problem.

The city on the island where I live is engaged in a $100 Million-plus sewage treatment project. Some serious-minded citizens asked that the city authorities consider using that huge sum of money to instead provide each city household with a composting toilet, and use the balance for something more useful. The city authorities immediately responded that the new sewage treatment plant would still be required, as current health regulations consider shower and bath water as "black" water requiring the full sewage treatment process.

For those homes in the county who have legally installed composting toilets, I can only assume that the county still requires the full-blown septic tank and drain-field treatment of the household grey and black water discharge.

To add insult to injury, in the last couple of years we came within an eyelash of being required to treat or capture our engine-cooling water in holding tanks on federal waters. Most inboard boat engines pump raw salt water through a heat exchanger to carry heat away from the engine's permanent antifreeze coolant. The only "contaminant" is heat... which is considered a pollutant.

So after the emergency is over, normal services come back online, the dead have been buried, the injured are healing, and lives begin to come back to normal, it would be a very prudent family that would NEVER, EVER mention where they stashed or emptied the emergency compost toilet bags!

Dominions Son

@graybyrd

However, in many areas of the US there is rigid opposition by many (really, too numerous to list here) housing, zoning, city, and state authorities. Any handling of human waste outside the traditionally, certified, conventional processes is subject to severe suspicion.


Most of the commercial models have a slightly better composting process, can handle urine and can be used continuously with only the need to empty fully processed compost.

They are free standing units and would only take up slightly more room than your homemade bucket model.

As long as you have all the required traditional plumbing, they don't need to know you have a composting toilet stashed away for emergencies.

REP

@graybyrd

Here's a tip (really useful for your next Apocalypse scenario.


Thanks. I've been saving bits and pieces of the Forum posts as resource data for when I get back to part 2 of my story The Ark; Part 2 being the post-apocalypse portion. I've added you tip to my resource data.

REP

@graybyrd

I know what you mean about earthquakes and crazy drivers.

I was living in the SF Bay Area when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit. I was making a right hand turn and my car started bouncing toward the curb. The first thing to pop into my mind was broken axle so I pulled to the curb and stopped. As I started to get out of the car to check the wheels, there was this loud bang and flash of light. Once I was out, I saw the power lines were down and laying across the car in front of me and on the ground beside my car. A woman and her two teen/preteen kids came out of their house to see what happened. I shouted power lines down. The woman wrapped her arms around the two kids, picked them up, and ran back into the house. Smart thing to do in my opinion. Many of my neighbors refused to go back into their home due to fear of what the aftershocks might do. Some of them camped outside for two or three nights.

Once while heading north on Hwy 5 the traffic was backed up and we were creeping along at about 10 mph. I was in the left lane, and this woman next to me was so frustrated that she punch it as she pulled onto the gravel shoulder of the road. I saw her fishtail and then lost sight as she went past the big rig that had been ahead of her. A few seconds later, the big rig went past a second big rig that was parked on the shoulder of the road. I'm surprised the woman had time to pull in front of the first big rig before she hit the second. People do stupid things like that all the time.

LonelyDad

There's a GIFF that shows up on Imgur every so often that shows a car zooming past another car using the breakdown lane. As the filming car moves forward one sees that car impaled on the end of one of those crash barriers that one finds alongside the road in places. Definitely poetic justice.

flightorfight

@tjcase

There is about 600 stories at www.survivalistboards.com.

StarFleet Carl

@graybyrd

However, in many areas of the US there is rigid opposition by many (really, too numerous to list here) housing, zoning, city, and state authorities. Any handling of human waste outside the traditionally, certified, conventional processes is subject to severe suspicion.


And in a true emergency situation, if they're not smart enough to throw the rule book out the window, then they deserve everything that happens to them.

I'm not saying you don't try to maintain basic hygiene - you don't dump your crap into a river upstream from where someone else draws their drinking water. But you dig a hole, make honey buckets, or just make do.

Honestly - and I sound a lot like John Ringo here - there would be a LOT of good from a severe natural disaster. It'll kill off the tofu eaters and leeches, and hopefully improve the species. Mother nature doesn't let you put a safety pin on and give you a time out because you're stressed. You either improvise, adapt, and overcome (Thanks, Gunny Highway) or you die.

Callous? Yeah. But I'm sick of the left coast and all their environmental bullcrap. You have one of the finest farming regions in the world - and you won't let farmers have the water because it might affect some bug or plant. Idiots. They'd completely freak out if you tried to use the human waste to actually fertilize plants - sort of like has been done by man for thousands of years.

Better stop, I can feel my rant building ...

(Oh, and I live in Oklahoma - welcome to the home of tornoadoes. So we regularly get visited by natural death and destruction. Crap happens, we rebuild. We're stubborn that way.)

Replies:   graybyrd  REP
graybyrd
Updated:

@StarFleet Carl

Well, you've caught me in a snarly mood this a.m. (I'm old and my insomnia is reaming me--it's five a.m. and I've been up since three).

Don't go kicking shit at granola crunchers and bleeding hearts. There's enough blame to spread around for everybody. Right now I'm trying to think of a way to thank all them dupes who just handed the US to the oligarchs. When it comes down on your head, don't come pissin' & moanin' to me. I'll be the one out in the back yard tendin' the veggie patch and the rabbit hutch for something to eat.

As for tofu eaters and leeches dyin' off in a disaster, don't get so smug; disasters take everybody at random, depending on the luck of the draw. It might even be you or someone of yours.

Now, speaking of rule books, I'll agree on that. Since the US went insane with insecurity, and lumped everything into the Department of Homeland Security, it's all been turned upside-down. Everything is now a top-down structure. Nobody can do anything without a DHS-sanctioned certificate, authorization, credential, or procedure. Every potential emergency responder is expected to be pre-qualified and certified under the DHS umbrella, conforming to DHS supervision. How this will hold up in the face of reality, such as Washington and Oregon totally failing the DHS-directed Emergency Exercises, remains to be seen, and I'm not aware of any contingency fall-back positions in the DHS thinking other than perhaps imposing Martial law to suppress the unhappy survivors.

As for the water for agriculture issue, again we may agree, but it's the politicians and urban dwellers who are in control. In my years living in the isolated Mountain West where the Federal Government owned 97 percent of our county (the size of the state of Connecticut) and 67 percent of our state, we few rural residents lived under the thumb of organized urban Disney-freaks. Disney-freaks: they watch Disney "nature films" and believe Bambi is the true Messiah. And cattle are spawn of Satan sent to shit in Bambi's sacred Mountain Meadows and Campgrounds. So I don't need lectures on that point.

Urban environmentalists are NOT conservationists. They shun compromise and despise multiple-use thinking. They don't share. In that regard, they're like the DHS: unyielding rules apply, and dissenting opinions are intolerable heresy.

As for Oklahoma and tornadoes, I do think it's rather cute that the Rigidly-Right Oklahoma state government thinks it is a Socialist plot to provide public funding for tornado shelters to be built in the public schools. So there aren't any. I'd assume the wealthy private schools have provided shelters for themselves? Perhaps letting public schools stand unprotected is just another twist on the theme of natural selection: let the kids who can't afford to attend private schools die and decrease the undeserving "leech" population?

I gotta go get another cuppa joe. I hate this gettin' old bullcrap. If only it weren't for the alternative.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
REP

@StarFleet Carl

Callous? Yeah.


Callous - no! To me, it is understanding and accepting the results of nature and reality in action.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@graybyrd

Perhaps letting public schools stand unprotected is just another twist on the theme of natural selection: let the kids who can't afford to attend private schools die and decrease the undeserving "leech" population?


It's probably more of a "blind spot" they had when building previous schools(Probably because their schools historically were of two flavors: small and easily blown away(but other shelter options were nearby, or early warning simply wasn't available yet), or brick and mortar built so solidly a tank would have a hard time getting in.

Modern construction practices aren't quite so robust, unless mandated by code. (Which they weren't)

It's definitely something they're doing something about in newer constructions. However, there is a major cost factor on retrofitting it into the hundreds of already standing schools. That isn't a cheap undertaking, and statistically speaking based on past history, the odds of a tornado hitting an in session, or otherwise highly occupied school is pretty freaking low. As such it's a matter of prioritizing risk (of doing nothing) vs reward of deferring the requisite improvements until later.

Ernest Bywater

@Not_a_ID

However, there is a major cost factor on retrofitting it into the hundreds of already standing schools.


The best option would be to target schools that need to replace or expand their auditoriums / gyms, and have them construct auditoriums /gyms to be suitable disaster shelters for tornadoes, floods, etc. This way the schools are already committed to spending significant money, and the state or federal government need only fund part pf it to have it upgraded to the shelter standard.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Ernest Bywater

The best option would be to target schools that need to replace or expand their auditoriums / gyms, and have them construct auditoriums /gyms to be suitable disaster shelters for tornadoes, floods, etc. This way the schools are already committed to spending significant money, and the state or federal government need only fund part pf it to have it upgraded to the shelter standard.


Which works back to deferring the work until such time as those overhauls are warranted. In the meantime they cross their fingers and hope the school doesn't get demolished while it's filled with people inside it.

Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

Which works back to deferring the work until such time as those overhauls are warranted. In the meantime they cross their fingers and hope the school doesn't get demolished while it's filled with people inside it.


No it works out to deferring the work until way past when the overhauls should have been considered an emergency issue.

In Wisconsin, School districts can't issue bonds without a referendum approving the bond issue.

There was a school district in Wisconsin that new it needed to replace one of it's school buildings, but the voters kept rejecting the bond issue.

One day the floor/ceiling separating two class rooms collapsed. Classes were in session and student's were in the building at the time, though fortunately the affected class rooms were unoccupied.

The bond issue for the new building was put on the ballot for the next scheduled election and finally passed.

Ernest Bywater

@Not_a_ID

Which works back to deferring the work until such time as those overhauls are warranted.


We all know no elected group or government organisation (of any level) is going to spend a cent it isn't forced to do so, and then it's at the last moment, anyway. At the moment nothing, or next to nothing, is being done or planned to be done. What i suggest will get some done, which is ahead of none done.

StarFleet Carl

@Not_a_ID

Probably because their schools historically were of two flavors: small and easily blown away(but other shelter options were nearby, or early warning simply wasn't available yet), or brick and mortar built so solidly a tank would have a hard time getting in.


Pretty much that. The other minor detail with the last big storm we had was that there were shelters in place, which did prevent direct deaths due to storm damage. The problem was they were below ground shelters, which then flooded and the kids drowned instead.

Mind you, we DO know how to build to withstand tornadoes. The Warren Theater in Moore took a direct hit from not one, but two F5 tornoadoes when those storms came through in back to back years. You would think that a big space like a 16 screen theater would fold like a cheap suit. Nope. It lost part of the sign, and an A/C unit on top. That was it.

Also, it's this, honestly.

the odds of a tornado hitting an in session, or otherwise highly occupied school is pretty freaking low


I live less than a mile from where the '99 tornado went through. You can still tell where it was - but a lot of that area is built up again. It's, I think, just resilience as a species. If you have a bad thing happen, you can either curl up in a corner and die, or you can get off your ass and try. That doesn't mean you still will survive, but at least you tried.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd

@StarFleet Carl

I'm wondering if over-crowded schools in Oklahoma are using those 'temporary' manufactured classrooms that look like single-wide trailers. Up here in the PacNW they've sprouted like mushrooms in the less affluent school districts. 'Temporary' proves to be temporary as in 'temporary tax increase.' How many of ya'll want to be in one of those cracker boxes when the tornado hits?

Excuses are always the same: no money, its not needed, voters won't approve funding, etc. etc.

Capt Zapp

@graybyrd

are using those 'temporary' manufactured classrooms that look like single-wide trailers.


Here on the east coast the elementary school I attended brought in one that looked like a double wide when I attended the school back in the early 70's. When I returned in 2010, a new school had been built next door (in 1998?), the old school was falling down but the portable classroom was still there.

StarFleetCarl

@graybyrd

'temporary' manufactured classrooms that look like single-wide trailers.


My kindergarten year (so 1965) was in a single wide, 4th grade was in a double wide, back in Indiana. And when things got nasty, they evacuated us (quickly) into the main hallway of the school.

But it's always the same in small communities. My class was supposed to be the first to graduate from the new high school. It was actually built almost 10 years later.

I do know, however, that down here in Oklahoma, rural schools DO have storm shelters for their students and faculty. They may be poor - they're NOT stupid.

Replies:   graybyrd
Ernest Bywater

@graybyrd

Excuses are always the same: no money, its not needed, voters won't approve funding, etc. etc.


Which makes you wonder how much the legislated US School Bus System costs the tax payer in relation to what it delivers. From what I've seen and read each US school district has school bus network which includes a service - maintenance - storage center, a number of special order buses, and a management system for a bunch of buses that are greatly under utilized that spend most of their time parked. That all has to cost a fortune.

Here in Australia the school buses are regular use buses from full-time bus services doing a special service run to and from school, that are used for other bus services at other times, and spend most of their time on the road. In the most part the bus companies make a profit each year.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

Here in Australia the school buses are regular use buses from full-time bus services doing a special service run to and from school, that are used for other bus services at other times, and spend most of their time on the road.


Here in the US, the only private bus services other than school bus operators are long distance inter-city services. Even if they had enough spare capacity in any one city, it wouldn't be economical to use them as school buses.

The general short haul transit buses are all cit and/or county run operations. A, they don't have a lot of spare capacity, and there is a lot of overlap between when students are going to school and the heaviest demand times for the city/county bus services.

On top of that, there are a host of safety/traffic regulations around school buses that don't apply to general transit buses.

There are more stringent internal (for the passengers) safety standards for school buses than for general transit buses.

US school buses have a number of external safety devices (stop signals). An US traffic laws require traffic to stop (going both ways except for divided boulevards) when the school bus is picking up or dropping off passengers.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
sejintenej

@Ernest Bywater

in Australia the school buses are regular use buses from full-time bus services doing a special service run to and from school, that are used for other bus services at other times, and spend most of their time on the road.

In this area (east of London, UK) school bus services are run by local education authorities who contract normal bus companies with normal (often old) buses. Weekdays they seem to be used only twice a day
but at weekends when maintenance is carried out on closed railway lines they are used as the official replacement for trains (a major transport link around here)

graybyrd

@StarFleetCarl

I do know, however, that down here in Oklahoma, rural schools DO have storm shelters for their students and faculty. They may be poor - they're NOT stupid.


My reason for using OK as the example is that I watched with sadness and disbelief the news stories of the school that collapsed when struck by a tornado sometime back. Students died. At the time, there was commentary that the OK legislature had been petitioned numerous times to provide funding for shelters for OK schools, and steadfastly refused to do so. So I can only believe that if rural OK schools have shelters, the independent and common-sense rural folk dug deep and voted the funds locally to protect their children.

richardshagrin

"We know we belong to the land
And the land we belong to is grand
And when we say
Yeow! A-YIP-I-O-EE-AY
We're only sayin "You're doing fine Oklahoma!"
Oklahoma, OK"
Oscar Hammerstein
Oklahoma lyrics

graybyrd

@Ernest Bywater

Which makes you wonder how much the legislated US School Bus System costs the tax payer in relation to what it delivers.


Two factors: first, to survive in the US both parents must hold full-time jobs; that precludes a parent being available to drive kids back and forth to school. Also, the hours don't jibe, creating a time conflict.

The other factor was caused by massive school consolidation as an "economy measure" that began in full force a half century ago. Multiple schools in small communities were forced by federal and state authorities to consolidate into one centralized location. The rationale was to eliminate duplication of administrative functions, and it was also--rather vehemently argued by some--to improve the educational opportunity for small-school students.

The result was to greatly increase the distances from outlying homes to the central school, thus mandating a large and costly bus fleet. Whether any real savings were achieved in administrative overhead is debatable, as bureaucratic 'empire building' and huge administrative salaries far exceed any previous budgets; also, a school of 5,000 students with class sizes of 35 to 40 students crammed into a room where teachers are powerless to enforce discipline does overwhelm the 'enhanced educational opportunity' argument. But I digress: America feels buses are for the unwashed classes who cannot afford proper cars; thus, we do not have available commercial bus fleets. If it weren't for the ubiquitous yellow school bus, all the kids would be hitch-hiking.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

On top of that, there are a host of safety/traffic regulations around school buses that don't apply to general transit buses.


I'm sure all those extra regulations and laws add to the cost of operation, but I wonder if they provide any real life safety increases. Hard to say in any relevant way.

Here in Australia we've about a fifteenth of the US population spread out over about the same land mass as continental USA, but almost every small town has a private bus company who also run the school bus service as well as other local commercial services like runs to the next town or around town - and they make a living and profit out of it. Yes, the state government provide a fare per student for the students that qualify for a subsidy, but it's only the same as an adult ticket for the same service (and often less). In the major cities like the state capitals there's usually a government owned public transport system that uses their own buses to do most of the school bus runs, then puts the buses back into the general service pool for the rest of the day.

Which system is best can be debated all week. The point is the system here usually runs on time and at a profit with low per user cost due to the higher general usage rate of the buses, while that doesn't seem to be the case in the USA.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@graybyrd

Two factors: first, to survive in the US both parents must hold full-time jobs; that precludes a parent being available to drive kids back and forth to school. Also, the hours don't jibe, creating a time conflict.


That's very true down here, today. Thanks for the details in your reply. It would seem the major issue is more to do with the psychology of the people involved. We also have gone through some of the 'cost saving' amalgamations that result in students busing all over the landscape.

Where I live is a town of about 500 people and have two primary schools - one government and one church run. The high schools were closed down to save costs and now the students are bused to the next town (42 kilometres away) or the next one after that (115 kilometres away) depending upon if they go to the private high school or the government high school (which is further away). They catch a private contractor bus. They do the school run, then do a run to take people to the towns for shopping or work, then bring the kids back, then go pick up the adults to bring them home - sometimes they do other runs in between. It's only a small company here, so they don't do a lot of runs. The place I lived in before had about 5,000 people in it and had over a dozen services a day between it and the nearby smaller towns and the city about 45 kilometres away. Both companies make a profit.

PotomacBob

If you don't like "temporary," try "permanent" - which for women's hair means what? six months?

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

but I wonder if they provide any real life safety increases.


I would think that school buses can stop traffic in both directions while kids cross the street before/after getting on/off the bus provides a measurable safety improvement.

Capt Zapp

@Dominions Son

... school buses can stop traffic in both directions ...


They put the 'STOP' arm out there and the red lights flash but that doesn't make anyone stop. There are videos taken of vehicles passing buses on BOTH sides. The best video I've seen is the one of the driver that got fed up with vehicles ignoring the signals and now stops their bus so it blocks both lanes of traffic.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

I would think that school buses can stop traffic in both directions while kids cross the street before/after getting on/off the bus provides a measurable safety improvement.


That can be done with road rules without incurring the cost of a specialized fleet that is hardly used at other times, which is what the bulk of the regulations and laws about them results in.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Capt Zapp

They put the 'STOP' arm out there and the red lights flash but that doesn't make anyone stop.


And if you don't stop, the bus driver gets your license plate number and you get a ticket for a moving violation in the mail.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

And if you don't stop, the bus driver gets your license plate number and you get a ticket for a moving violation in the mail.


IF the driver can write fast enough to get all the number plates.

I did see an article where one school district was putting cameras on all their buses to record the people driving past illegally this with their number plates, because they now get a cut of the fine if it's paid.

That's one way to get the buses fixed and on the road.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

That can be done with road rules without incurring the cost of a specialized fleet that is hardly used at other times


Not the way the US road rules are written. The rules explicitly require particular markings and specialized signaling equipment on the exterior of the bus.

In any case, kids are going to / from school at the same general times the bulk of adults are going to/from work.

Even if you did use the same buses that are used for general transit, you would still have the same number of buses idle at the same times.

To adopt the model you describe as being used in Australia, laws would have to change at every level of government.

School districts (public and private) would have to change their hours, starting earlier and letting out later.

It might reduce operating costs, but the one time costs would to make the transition would be huge and it would face enormous political opposition.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

IF the driver can write fast enough to get all the number plates.


He would get at least a few of them.

Replies:   Capt Zapp
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Not the way the US road rules are written. The rules explicitly require particular markings and specialized signaling equipment on the exterior of the bus.


So the inefficient system is too well entrenched is laws of little use to make it worth thinking about changing them, is that it? The fact the laws say to put them there, doesn't mean they need to be there.

I agree to change the system in the US would require changes at many levels, but the current system does seem to be chewing up a lot of money and not working all that well - last comment based on all the news reports about huge numbers of US school buses sitting around for months while awaiting their turn for repairs or basic maintenance work.

As to buses being idle, when I was living in Junee they had three buses making regular runs all day to cross the 40 plus kilometres between Junee, plus the nearby smaller towns, and Wagga Wagga. All the trips were profitable runs for the company, although the school runs were a little more crowded than the other runs. Workers and school kids in the first runs of the day, mostly shoppers in the other runs.

As to costs for the transition, they can be done in many ways. Either allow for a phasing program or having the existing fleet and services set up as a general use bus service would work.

Capt Zapp

@Dominions Son

IF the driver can write fast enough to get all the number plates.

He would get at least a few of them.


In many cases, the bus driver doesn't even see the car coming because they are paying attention to the passengers. When it zooms by, the driver is looking to see if anyone got hit. If the driver is lucky, they will get the color and MAYBE a make. other than that, best hope for other drivers to have gotten more information on the offender. Even then without hard evidence it's doubtful anything will be done.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Capt Zapp

Even then without hard evidence it's doubtful anything will be done.


If the bus driver reports it, they will send a ticket to the driver of the car. It happened to my brother.

Replies:   Capt Zapp  docholladay
StarFleetCarl
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

Here in Australia the school buses are regular use buses from full-time bus services doing a special service run to and from school, that are used for other bus services at other times, and spend most of their time on the road. In the most part the bus companies make a profit each year.


I'll go back to 1966 through 1979, when I rode a bus to school. I grew up in rural Indiana - we had three different school corporations in the county, total population of 10,000, with total area covered 450 square miles. In our school corporation, all the grades rode the same bus. The buses were all privately owned by their drivers, and the drivers bid on their routes each year. My high school graduating class was huge - all 52 of us.

The thing with Australia is that 70% of the country has only 3% of your population living in it. That means it's easier for the towns where people DO live to do what they do. In certain communities here, it could work that way. But since we have over 3,100 counties in the U.S., with about 2,600 of them rural, that's sort of tough. (And the minor detail that we also have more than 15 times the population of Australia, with nearly as many people in the New York metro area alone as you have in your entire country, creates it's own issues. If we only had 30 million people living here, I'm sure we'd have a different set of rules as well.)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@StarFleetCarl

The thing with Australia is that 70% of the country has only 3% of your population living in it. That means it's easier for the towns where people DO live to do what they do.


When you take into account the school buses run in western Sydney are also private company services run in the same manner, it's not just a population related issue. However, if it were, having the larger populations in the schools needing the bus service should make it a more profitable operation to run, but the news reports from the US indicate all the school bus services run at a huge loss.

I suspect the real answer maybe a systemic issue related to how the US has so many fingers in the pie stirring things related to the schools, and so many of them being bureaucrats making laws that seem like a good idea at the time, but often end up being in the 'swamp draining' class.

Capt Zapp

@Dominions Son

If the bus driver reports it, they will send a ticket to the driver of the car. It happened to my brother.


They would have to prove that it was your brother driving at the time.

This is one example of how quickly things happen. Driver speeds past Graham school bus, nearly hits 3 kids - YouTube

I wonder if they ever caught that person.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Capt Zapp

They would have to prove that it was your brother driving at the time.


Not the way the law is written in my state.

Replies:   Capt Zapp
docholladay

@Dominions Son

If the bus driver reports it, they will send a ticket to the driver of the car.


Wouldn't that ticket be going to the registered owner of the car. The driver a lot of times is not always the owner of the vehicle.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Dominions Son
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@docholladay

Wouldn't that ticket be going to the registered owner of the car. The driver a lot of times is not always the owner of the vehicle.


Correct, it'd be along the lines of a parking ticket. As it is issued against the car, which would be legally represented by its owner. Which may not have been the person operating it and thus provided the cause for the ticket to be issued.

Dominions Son

@docholladay

Wouldn't that ticket be going to the registered owner of the car. The driver a lot of times is not always the owner of the vehicle.


Yes, it would be going to the registered owner of the car. The way the law is written in my state, the registered owner can be held liable for certain moving violations. Failing to stop for a school bus is one of them.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Dominions Son

Yes, it would be going to the registered owner of the car. The way the law is written in my state, the registered owner can be held liable for certain moving violations. Failing to stop for a school bus is one of them.


My worst nightmare would be caused if I even accidentally harmed a child. Its the one thing I could never forgive myself for.

Capt Zapp

@Dominions Son

They would have to prove that it was your brother driving at the time.

Not the way the law is written in my state.


If your brother has hard evidence that he was elsewhere at the time, they cannot write him a ticket as the driver if he could not have been the one driving.
Some states have laws that say that the owner of the vehicle is responsible for how it is used. In incidents where they cannot identify the driver, they can cite the owner of the vehicle.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Capt Zapp

In incidents where they cannot identify the driver, they can cite the owner of the vehicle.


And that's the way the law is written in my state and why they didn't have to prove my brother was the one driving his car.

Replies:   Capt Zapp
Capt Zapp

@Dominions Son

And that's the way the law is written in my state and why they didn't have to prove my brother was the one driving his car.


They can cite him as the owner, but if they put in that he was operating the vehicle (which is what was stated initially), then he's not guilty.

Back to Top