Home « Forum « Story Discussion and Feedback

Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

NIS = Naked in School story universe

pimfitts
Updated:

Pim is my wife's name. I'm Steve

Some years ago I got into the "Naked in School" story universe. Some of the stories are here. The Universe includes many stories on other sites though. It is easy to find on line.

. . Warning: because it involves high school students it has a lot of sex that involves kids less than 18 yo. There are a few stories set in College instead of HS to avoid this problem.

. . Personally, since there are no drawings or pics involved and it is just fictional words on paper I don't find it objectionable. No kids are being hurt by it.

. . It is set in the future or in a parallel universe where all STDs and possible pregnancy have been conquered. Most of the stories, in fact, assume that the Gov. has decided to lower the age of consent a lot and most importantly the new laws force HS students to strip and let others feel them up for a week.

There are a few reasons why it appeals to me. 1] The students are given no choice about being in The Program, so there is the 'no choice' thing going for it [my personal turn on]. 2] The stories are written jumping back and forth between the girl's and her 'partner's' POV. 3] They always/usually result in a shy person breaking out of their shell, becoming sexual, and finding their true love. 4] I was a loner in HS and JHS, the idea of being forced out of my shell appeals to me now [53 years later, at 70 yo].

Replies:   pimfitts  pimfitts
JohnBobMead

SOL Naked in School Universe http://storiesonline.net/universe/2/naked-in-school

ASSTR Naked in School Universe, the canonical site http://www.asstr.org/~NIS-Admin/

The original stories were single participant stories, the concept of it being a pair of students, Boy/Girl partners, was introduced by Frank Downey/Don Lockwood in 2003, and was embraced by most of the writers as being a Good Idea.

Replies:   pimfitts
LonelyDad

People, try to remember the reason for the name change. He's a school teacher now and would rather not have his real name associated with his Don Lockwood stories.

Replies:   1111
1111

@LonelyDad

I didn't know that. Makes sense though
I still would like to see him finish Rewind sometime in my lifetime. Great story like most of his others. One of my favourite authors. I'd re-read stories like Dance of a Lifetime, Heroes, Transcending the Role, Finding a Place and even Tammy at least one every year
Chris aka 1111

pimfitts
Updated:

@JohnBobMead

Thanks for the link to the SOL NIS page. I think there a lot of stories there that I have not read yet.

richardshagrin

NIS stories are like wedding costume, something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue. In this case blue refers to the sexual component in the story. I wouldn't suggest anyone read all the hundred or so NIS stories one after another. There are so many similarities to most of them that the repetition will diminish the impact of the next one. On the other hand it is always nice to dip into a new story in the genre to see what about it is different and what is familiar. Like Westerns, or Do-Over stories there are similarities and the characters and what the author brings to make the plot fresh or at least exciting for the new reader makes a NIS story once a week, or maybe once a month, a good experience. Guys have sex with naked girls, what more could any reader want?

pimfitts
Updated:

@pimfitts

There is a story here ["Alandra Naked in School" the 4th story down the list] that got me to thinking.

If prostitution was legal would it then be legal to require sexual services from employees?

In the story this became more or less normal, get a job as a secretary and give blow jobs to the boss every morning.

Is this what would happen?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  REP
Ernest Bywater

@pimfitts

In the story this became more or less normal, get a job as a secretary and give blow jobs to the boss every morning.

Is this what would happen?


In general, no, because the sex would have to be explained as being a requirement of the job before hire, and most people wouldn't take the job. And those who would, may not be good at the other duties.

There are countries where prostitution is legal, and this isn't part of normal employment. But it may be part of the job as a prostitute.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Ernest Bywater

In general, no, because the sex would have to be explained as being a requirement of the job before hire, and most people wouldn't take the job. And those who would, may not be good at the other duties.


Pretty much this, it would have to be part of the job description. Although I could see ways it could be abused, particularly in an economic environment where an employer sees dozens of applicants for every job opening.

But it goes back to the ones most likely to offer said sexual services, at least initially, are likely going to be:
1) Unqualified for the job.
2) Not very attractive.

The other thing is that at least in many NiS settings, it doesn't suspend other laws. So Equal Opportunity Employment is still in play, so if you were a straight male looking for some eye candy sexxx-cretary material, and you get a gay male who is willing to meet the terms of employment and he's qualified...

Not_a_ID
Updated:

Of course, on that note, we're forgetting that Wagner's NiS setting is basically the sexual revolution and government run amok. Where AIDS was basically a speed bump, STDs have been cured, and a 100% effective (non-permanent) birth control option exists. (Although I know some NIS authors went with settings where STDs still are around, AIDS still is a thing, and birth control isn't infallible)

You're still going to be stuck with the ones most likely to accept the more "demeaning" options as being the ones who are least qualified, at least initially. Assuming those people are capable of becoming qualified, and that they do so, then things begin to shift over time.

Which was a large part of the premise of Wagner's work if you look at it a little deeper. Since it demonstrates a shifting window of expectations. Particularly once you look at the "backstory."

Part of her justification for NiS was that the "window" had shifted so much, and so fast, that the "NiS Program" was needed to "prepare" the students for the new (nude, mostly service sector) work environment they were preparing to enter into. So that they could get over the "culture shock" experience while in school, instead of while in the workplace.

The most recent NiS stories have almost lost sight of this entirely. In Wagner's story public female nudity already was "a thing" out there. The "reality" of her setting is that most students would have likely already encountered a fair bit of nudity in their own lives, albeit most of it may have only been through the TV, if that, depending on how sheltered they were:

http://storiesonline.net/s/37541:19713

When the AIDS problem was solved, and other sexually transmitted diseases were also cured, the trend toward treating men and women differently still continued. One college started allowing the cheerleaders and pom pom girls to appear topless, then another required theirs to cheer in the nude. Women's professional sports competed in the nude, then as their popularity grew, so did collegiate sports. Women's sports which had previously been ignored were now filling stadiums, bringing new emphasis to the schools, and making real professional women's athletics profitable. Court trials failed to ban the practice, since it was bringing money and emphasis. Sex sells.

This spread into business. Young female executives made a much more significant impact when they left their clothes outside the board room, and used their advantages instead of demanding gender equality.


So at least in a "Strict" interpretation of the Wagner-verse, the Cheerleaders, and other (female) student athletes at school are probably more than fully aware that if they intend to pursue their athletic endeavors into college and beyond. They're going to be leaving their clothes behind after graduation, so they might as well start getting used to the idea sooner or later... (And raises questions as to what those High School Athletes would encounter should they attend a special "camp" sponsored by a given athletic program from those Colleges/Universities, at least so far as dress code goes.)

Likewise, according to that quotation above, it would seem that at least some of the "female role models" in terms of successful business executives and whatnot likewise would already be featuring more than a few naked women in it. So at least in terms of nudity, Wagner's NiS story existed in something of a "sweet spot" where Female Nudity had probably only "recently"(say, within 2 to 5 years prior to the Wagner story) been nearly universally adopted at the Collegiate(University for you international types) and Professional sports level, and was only really starting to make itself known in the business/executive world. As such the practice hadn't (yet) fully "filtered down" to society at large, or the service sector.

The 2 year number(for the "late adopters") is so that the Universities would have had at least one or two subsequent "intake cycles" where students were experiencing culture shock over the nudity thing, and for them to start pursuing efforts "to help address the issue" which opens things up for creating and introducing the Naked in School Program.

Basically, people in smaller(non-Uuniversity/college) towns "know" this stuff is going on, as they've undoubtedly seen plenty of evidence of it on Television at that point. But the odds of them having seen anyone practicing such things locally are slim to none. Likewise, it's still new enough that most national (service sector/retail) chains would be starting to become comfortable with the idea of pursuing a nude (female) workforce policy as chances are the first cases involving such policies would likely have played themselves out in court by about that time, and also would give them a chance to asses what other impacts may be on their respective businesses if they pursue it themselves.

NiS itself helps in some other ways too, by playing canary in the coal mine as it were, as it should flush out any opposition to it in short order. You get anecdotal evidence of this in Wagner's story, with her journeys into town and finding that Ice Cream Shop is "normal" on Tuesday, but has its servers undressing in response to under-dressed customers(that it is encouraging to be under-dressed) by Thursday. Likewise, Karen's discussion with her parents on Tuesday also suggests that her mother is likely to be going naked@work sometime "soon enough" so the nudity thing is filtering through society even without NiS becoming involved.

But that only involved the nudity side of the equation. The "sexual favors" isn't so explicitly outlined, other than it being included as part of the NiS Program itself.

-----

Although it is kind of funny to note that many of the more recent NiS stories seem to be focusing on the imposed nudity from the angle of our own world. Rather than from Karen's construct. They still work as NiS because they have most of the relevant parts, but they're still breaking from the social construct of (young adult) female nudity being increasingly seen as an inevitable outcome that they need to be prepared for(and the impetus for the Program) if they intend to be more than "just a housewife."

Instead they're operating from the angle of the Program trying to turn the students into sexual exhibitionists in a social setting where Nudity has no real application in the real world, and that (women's) college and professional athletics are operating as they always have, rather than under the Wagner model as it were.

REP
Updated:

@pimfitts


If prostitution was legal would it then be legal to require sexual services from employees?


I would say NO for existing employees. If the job description of new employees clearly defined having sex with superiors as part of the job, then I would say YES.

In essence, the employer would be hiring prostitutes to work in the company's traditional employment positions. However, I imagine that such an employer might be in trouble for excluding women (or men) who refuse to engage in sexual acts. The excluded individuals might file a sex discrimination lawsuit. That would be a very interesting legal case.

Currently, employers change job descriptions' requirements, and the employee is in the position of accepting the new description, quitting, or being fired. The flip side of that is, the employer will lose individuals who are critical to the functioning of the company.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@REP

If prostitution was legal would it then be legal to require sexual services from employees?


I would say NO for existing employees.


The one exception I could think of is: If the employee in question is agreeable to the change, then you're probably fine. But yeah, if the employee doesn't accept the change, you're in for some problems, unless there is some other deus ex machina going on within the storyline to explain why that option is working.

You're either dealing with a cultural shift/change that has occurred(mass mind control?) where people are somehow suddenly just fine with such things. (Wagner's NiS Premise almost borderlines this) Or you are dealing with some changes to law on the books that legalized what is going on.

A final option is some combination of the previous two, as many laws are a reflection of cultural expectations. So if the culture changes, the laws would presumably follow suit.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Not_a_ID

The one exception I could think of is: If the employee in question is agreeable to the change, then you're probably fine.


While I agree that if the employee willingly engages in sex, no charges of force should be brought against the employer.

However, the problem is with a policy that requires employees to engage in acts of prostitution (i.e., the employee's wage is in part payment for sexual activities).

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@REP

However, the problem is with a policy that requires employees to engage in acts of prostitution (i.e., the employee's wage is in part payment for sexual activities).


Well, so long as prostitution is legal where your company is at, if the employee is agreeable to the change, it would circle back to there not being anything legally speaking that would be likely to prevent such a change.

Unless the sex-workers union somehow had language put in saying that a sex worker could only be a sex worker and not be expected to perform other duties.

Not_a_ID

Only tangentially related to NiS, but in a (near-future) NiS setting I could definately see this happening. Although I'm also reasonably certain it will likely become common enough in my lifetime, as I'd be halfway surprised if someone doesn't have a mockup of this kicking around somewhere(As movies have already explored it to a very limited extent). LED derived display tech is getting more impressive in each successive generation of development:

TV/Monitor displays that ultimately replace or overlay bathroom mirrors, I'm more inclined to suspect replace. Which means that monitor needs to have a camera in the bathroom in order to display your image on the faux-mirror. As a "value add" you could even place additional cameras in the space so you can get that view of your backside without doing contortions or the funhouse mirror thing.

(Which also isn't to mention that the computerized bathroom mirror isn't exactly a new concept at this point, IIRC, Minority Report and a few other movies already "went there" in that respect, although I think they were silent or otherwise vague on if the "computer" had any kind of video recording capability. But in this era of people bringing a growing number of items into their homes that can literally see and hear what they're doing, and potentially report it back to other devices. The bathroom remodel "To give you a more 3-d perspective on yourself" is probably a frontier we're reaching sooner rather than later.... And what does that say about the people who are perfectly comfortable/unconcerned with some of the implications to them personally?)

pimfitts

@pimfitts

On another topic --
I would like to say a few things about the Universe itself.
1] Punishment --
. . a] The Program should not be used as a punishment for non-Program infractions, like Karen Wagner being late to school that day.
. . b] A good punishment for disrespecting a nude Program person is to put them in the Program for the rest of the day. Calling a girl a slut because she is in the Program and gets excited by being touched [when she has no choice in the matter] should get a girl put in the Program for the rest of the day.
. . c] One story asked "What other punishments can be handed out?" The author never answered that question.
. . I suggest this -- If you grab a girl without 1st making a request or make a Reasonable Request that is ruled not reasonable, then you lose your right to make RR of anyone for a month. A 2nd offence would make that for the rest of the year. [An example of a unreasonable request is -- "Would you please stick your finger into your ass and wiggle it all around and then stick it in your pussy and do the same?" But, the stories make this sound like a girl would have to do it.

2] It really does seem to me that the idea of the Progrm [according to most stories] was/is to make most girls into sluts. To force them to experience the 'joys of being a slut', so that many of them would decide that slutdum is a good way to live if there are no STD and babies as a result. The original story by Karen Wagner assumed that most girls are really submissives at heart and just need a nudge for them up to wake up to that fact. [Not true of course, except for 5% to 10% of girls.] Other stories later just assumed most girls are natural sluts.

3] The stories ignore the difference between girls and boys to some extent. Especially, the Program officials seem to oblivious to the differences.

Just my thoughts, what are yours?

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@pimfitts

Regarding Program Punishments, author's have pretty much explored the range of it, or simply ignored it. Although the BDSM side doesn't tend to show up very often, unlike in Karen's initial opening story.

Beyond that, dystopian and/or hedonistic tends to be favored. They almost all tend to point out and play out the fact that the Programs stated goals, and its methods seem to often be at odds with each other.

Although sometimes you'll see the nudist rather than hedonist take turn up, but those are very rare. When the "nudist view" or perspective does turn up, it's usually to point out the cross-purposes the Program is working towards. As part of its initial stated purpose and objective reads like something most Nudists would support, or even write. Up until you get to the forced nudity, and you certainly lose most (strict) nudists once you start getting into public displays of sexuality. (The hedonists are another matter) As most nudists go to great lengths to try to disconnect the two concepts from each other, while NiS is almost attempting to weld them together permanently.

2] It really does seem to me that the idea of the Progrm [according to most stories] was/is to make most girls into sluts. To force them to experience the 'joys of being a slut', so that many of them would decide that slutdum is a good way to live if there are no STD and babies as a result. The original story by Karen Wagner assumed that most girls are really submissives at heart and just need a nudge for them up to wake up to that fact. [Not true of course, except for 5% to 10% of girls.] Other stories later just assumed most girls are natural sluts.


I don't know about all of them being submissive, even in Karen's take. You also have to keep in mind that in a school situation, the students are in an inherently submissive situation in regards to the teachers in the first place. So even if the specific person in question isn't normally submissive, they're going to have to bend a little in regards to what the teachers want in many cases.

But yes, in the Wagner-verse, it is full on sexual liberation and pushing of boundaries as well as comfort zones for the female students in particular. It's very much putting hedonism on a scale of 1 to 10, and dialing it up to 11.

It also is inherently sexist, and that kind of was the point, I believe. After a person turns 21, only women are allowed to continue being nude in Public. (Objectification of the female form) Accounts of women using their sexuality and "feminine wiles" to "get their way" on various things(sexual politics, more female objectification), only boys being allowed to get relief in class because of "blue balls"(which later iterations of NiS stories made more "equal opportunity"so the girls could get relief as well. Again, at least until it was "equalized" the boys sexual needs were paramount, the girls "didn't matter"). and so forth.

As to the "natural sluts" I think a lot of that goes to what a person wants to define as being "slutty" and some set a higher bar than others. Within the context of Reality, I would tend to believe that there is a very large number (of most devoutly religious) women who literally have no idea what good sex is. Because they've never had it.

They've been socially conditioned to not (directly/clearly) communicate their wants and desires to their (male) sex partners, and in many cases have low expectations to begin with. (Rightfully so, the female body is generally a lot harder to bring to sexual climax than the male body, and young men in particular are usually very poorly informed on the finer points, which gets compounded when their partner doesn't tell them what's working, and what isn't)

Further, particularly with the religious in many cases, they've been taught that "good girls don't like sex" so even if they DO know what good sex is. Because they've had good sex, they're then filled with self-loathing because they liked it. Which then creates all kinds of nasty when they then start avoiding it, even though they want more of it.

So when you do finally end up with a sexually active woman who knows what good sex is. Doesn't loathe herself for having and enjoying sex, and is willing to pursue more of it, just like their male counterparts. Why is it that she is the one who is the "slut" while the male is simply "normal" in doing the same thing from the other side?

While some versions of the NiS Stories do have indications that it may be trying to turn them into naked sex-addicts, most of them seem to be more on the order of discovering sex, and discovering that they enjoy it, and that they don't need to be ashamed of their enjoying it. That's healthy enough, and practically every NiS story seems to stop right about there, at least for the main characters. Now other students may run afoul of the Federal NiS types and end up closer to the Sex-Addict side of things, if they're lucky. But those are the stories they play into the grand conspiracy of NiS being a means for human sex-trafficking.

3] The stories ignore the difference between girls and boys to some extent. Especially, the Program officials seem to oblivious to the differences.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. The NiS Program, in particular the Wagner version of it, seems to go to great lengths to play up the "separate, but equal" political construct played out in an overtly sexual context. They point out the differences, and they play them up, usually to the detriment of the female student(unless they're truly (hyper-sexual) exhibitionists to start with, or just otherwise highly mentally resilient).

Replies:   pimfitts
pimfitts
Updated:

@Not_a_ID

thank you for your kind reply. 2 things.

1] In my post I always said "most girls", I never said "all".

2] I regards to your reply to my 3rd point -- Let me explain my thinking better. I think that boys and girls are different. I think that there is a 'thing' that we call human nature. And that part of human nature is the act that boys/men and girls/women are different in some ways and that 'sex' is one of the main ways.

So, in NIS the boys will see it as a great opportunity and girls may be split, with some hating it and some going with the flow. The Program officials always seem surprise that boys get out of hand in the early going. Some girl has to ask them "How can you have been so clueless and or stupid?" I understand that it is a story and so dramatic is better, but every story I have read [about 30] there is not any or enough training about what is and is not OK to do "now". This leads to drama, but are officials that stupid?

Oh BTW, I personally [as an grownup-boy] think that sluts are given a bad rap. Boys should not disrespect them because this is the surest way to not get any more fun with them. Girls, OTOH, are enforcing the double standard because they can't compete with sluts so they have to disgrace them to reduce their numbers.

. . It has often been said that men want to marry a woman who is a lady in public and a whore [but slut would be more accurate] in the bedroom.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@pimfitts


So, in NIS the boys will see it as a great opportunity and girls may be split, with some hating it and some going with the flow. The Program officials always seem surprise that boys get out of hand in the early going. Some girl has to ask them "How can you have been so clueless and or stupid?" I understand that it is a story and so dramatic is better, but every story I have read [about 30] there is not any or enough training about what is and is not OK to do "now". This leads to drama, but are officials that stupid?


This one gets complicated. Some of this is present day "rape culture" being demonstrated. Where men/boys "lose control" of themselves sexually "she was asking for it" due to how she was dressed, what she was (not) wearing, etc. The reality for nearly all of those men is they were in fact "in control" the entire time, they just found what they considered to be either a good excuse for their actions, or believed they'd be able to get away with it by other means. (Successfully blame the victim for what happened.// Parents will make it "go away."// The victims and/or law enforcement won't track it back to them, etc.)

So a lot of NiS stories end up in a "present day" (or even recent past) setting where female nudity is still a new and unusual thing. Seeing female sexuality in public and in person even more so. While in the "Wagner-verse" female nudity is "common enough" in many areas, even if it isn't seen everywhere. Which may make "in person" exceedingly rare for some, but they're undoubtedly aware of it all the same.

Even most of the "highly sheltered" children would be hard pressed not to be aware of it going on. Although their personal expectations may be heavily skewed to say the least.

But getting back to "boys vs girls" on sexuality. I'm more inclined to say they're both about equally spread across the sexual spectrum. Although there is some research starting to suggest women might be slightly more predisposed towards bisexuality(and/or "sexual empathy"--so they're possibly wired to be bigger voyeurs than even the men in some ways), possibly as a defense mechanism(to help them lubricate prior to "the male" getting to them). What the bigger difference is between boys and girls, in particular in the present day is:

1) "Rape culture" (it's the woman's fault a man "loses control" sexually)

2) Women are brought up, often from an early age, getting directly and indirectly warned about the consequences of sex, as they're the ones who would end up pregnant.

While Wagner's NiS setting (and the broader NiS setting in general) is mixed on "Rape culture" given the strong implication that when a woman is naked or being overtly sexual, men(and some women) can't help ("loss of control" being implied) but give them "what they want." (Although the alternate is the ones watching retain (self-)control, liked what they saw, and want more of it, so they're more than happy to encourage more of it. Which naturally makes it logical to give the woman what she wants if her request isn't unreasonable.) As well as the infamous "reasonable request" which often is anything but. (But does play well into the "in control, and want more of it")

However, in that same context, those women did evidently get what they wanted, and no indication is given they received anything unwanted(or at least, unexpected by them) in return. So maybe that woman seeking the bank loan had an orgy with the bank officers in addition to going in there naked, so long as she expected that outcome and was "fine with it" there isn't much to be said... At least so long as the board wasn't actively creating that situation to start with, and ironically, wasn't actually a decisive factor. (Kind of like playing golf today)

So operating in a realm where "rape culture" is less of a thing, and there is little to no need to worry about "the consequences" as both pregnancies and STDs(which women are also more vulnerable to; at least when it comes to heterosexual pairings) are non-issues then we're right back to women have few to no reasons for remaining restrained sexually, and can let their sexuality "out to play" just like their male counterparts.

So in that respect, a girl working her way through an entire basketball team at that point should be less significant in that setting than a boy working his way through an entire team in reality today. The boy can get the team pregnant or give them STDs, the girl in this reverse scenario can't do either.

Of course, culture is one of the last things to adjust, so even it that is technically true, that doesn't make it so socially. In that respect, it turns NiS into a social engineering effort with dubious ethics, not that anyone claimed it was particularly ethical to start with.

Forcing people into situations where they'll have to assess their new reality without the veneer of their preconceptions is just asking for trouble. Particularly if their preconceptions and "social conditioning" is deeply entrenched in their minds. It becomes doubly hazardous if they're sexually dysfunctional in some way.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Not_a_ID


Forcing people into situations where they'll have to assess their new reality without the veneer of their preconceptions is just asking for trouble. Particularly if their preconceptions and "social conditioning" is deeply entrenched in their minds. It becomes doubly hazardous if they're sexually dysfunctional in some way.


Haha. Wrote my way into a circle. The above, by itself is almost a justification for The Program by itself. As NiS "allows that confrontation with today's 'new (nude) society' to happen within the 'controlled environment' of their school."

Where they have administrators, counselors, teachers, parents, and fellow class mates to "support" them through the ordeal instead of encountering it once they graduate from high school and move out on their own where they have little to no external support network available. At least, that's the theory. (And one that is only briefly touched on in Wagner's initial storyline)

"We're from the government, and we're here to help."

Back to Top