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in defense of realism

Amosbayou

Most of the stories I read here are high fantasy. Male wish fulfillment scenario's come to mind. So I grant authors some very extreme leeway for artistic license. As long as it doesn't make the story ridiculous I can live with it.
Up to a point, mind you.
Sometimes the lack of research and ignorance of the topic tends to grate in a way that leaves me unable to consider the remainder of the story with any favor.
A case in point. A million dollars in 1860 gold pieces In a wagon pulled by a team of mules. Using the 20 dollar gold piece as a reference which was only worth $20 at that time, we arrive at a number 50000 gold pieces. Each piece weighed 33 grams or a total of 1,650 Kilograms. For us primitive Americans That translates to 3,650 pounds. That's nearly 2 tons. Now my F-150 will carry a half ton. But, of course that is at 70 miles an hour. But then the truck has approximately 150 horsepower. That team of mules just has 2 horsepower, maybe 3 since they can out pull a horse. Surely you get my drift here. As I try to continue with the story I,m instead Flashing to visions of those mules straining with their bellies nearly touching the ground while that merciless skinner flogs them to greater effort. Looming ahead is a hill.
Now, some caveats are in order here. The author is an Aussie,Aussie,Aussie! Plus this is a Canadian story site. While the story took place in the American old west. All kinds of cultural differences could be included here. As a mildly educated American I confess I have no idea what a Aussie dollar Looks like. Or weighs. Maple leafs I have at least seen. My point, however is that the smallest things can ruin a story for me.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Amosbayou


Most of the stories I read here are high fantasy.


No they aren't. Male wish fulfillment is not high fantasy.

High Fantasy which is heavily misused is meant to denote a sword and sorcery (Conan) or Lord of the Rings/Dungeons & Dragons type setting.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Amosbayou


That team of mules just has 2 horsepower, maybe 3 since they can out pull a horse.


Edited:

That depends on the size of the mule team. Sure, two mules = about 3 horse power.

Towing power does not scale linearly with horse power and engine HP is not literally equivalent to that number of horses in towing capacity.

In an internal combustion engine, more horse power is mostly aimed at more speed. Where as a horse / mule team no matter how large will only go as fast as the slowest member of the team.

A horse can pull a hell of a lot more than you think.

http://modernfarmer.com/2015/12/how-much-can-a-horse-pull/

According to author Donna Campbell Smith, The Book of Draft Horses: The Gentle Giants That Built the World, in 1924 a pair of Shire draft horses pulled 50 tons (100,000 pounds), which is 20,000 pounds more than the weight of a semi truck. Other sources we found recorded that they pulled only 45 tons. Only. Either way, that's a lot of weight.


You are the one who needs to do more research.

For the big wagons of the time (a Conestoga for example) were often used with teams of up to 10 mules/horses/oxen.

Settler families headed west would load a wagon up with a whole house of heavy wooden furniture + clothing + food and other supplies.

A Conestoga wagon can haul up to 6 tons of cargo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_wagon

Now my F-150 will carry a half ton.


I also have an F-150 (2015). Yes it will carry half a ton in the bed. However, it can tow a hell of a lot more. Up to 12,000 pounds depending on the exact configuration.

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/specifications/towing/

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Amosbayou


That translates to 3,650 pounds.


I assume you're talking of my story Stand in Time which I did a heck of a lot of research on before writing it. I suggest you do some research before you complain about things.

1. The wagons in question are modern well constructed lightweight titanium alloy with a greater strength and a fraction of the weight of the wagons used in the mid 1800s, and were transported back in time. Thus they were stronger than the wagons of the day, as well as being lighter with high quality bearings.

2. The Conestoga wagon they were based on was made of heavy wood and the average wagon carried loads of up to 12,000 pounds in a wagon 18 feet long, 4 feet wide, and up to 11 feet high.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_wagon

When I added the two together I saw absolutely no problem with dumping several thousand pounds of load in the wagons, which included the gold.

edit to add: the wagons were being pulled by teams of 6 mules.

typo fix edit

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Dominions Son

@Amosbayou

Next time you try to defend realism, I suggest to develop a better idea of what's realistic first, rather than just pulling some numbers out of your ass on a topic you know nothing about.

Replies:   Amosbayou
Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

and were transported back in time.


This is where the suspension of disbelief comes into play. Not everything must be realistic.

TO ALL: No need to attack, make it personal, or be nasty.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
sejintenej

@Amosbayou

Most of the stories I read here are high fantasy. Male wish fulfillment scenario's come to mind. So I grant authors some very extreme leeway for artistic license. As long as it doesn't make the story ridiculous I can live with it.

Of course stories are fantasy. Unless you are in a foxhole in Afghanistan what events have happened to you in the past 30 days which would make a good long story? Life is an eon of quiet followed by an hour or three of chaos - doesn't make for a story

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

This is where the suspension of disbelief comes into play. Not everything must be realistic.


True Switch, but even if I'd used the standard wagons of the day it was well within the capabilities of the wagons.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Amosbayou

@Dominions Son

Hmm, you seem to be a real internet whiz. And even resort to vulgarity. An American I assume?
I would point out that the only number I attained with the use of a simple calculator. You can do that too, Or find an internet reference. either way it's still a ridiculous weight. Even in a magic titanium wagon. Let's see. titanium weighs 60% of steel so I guess that's lighter than wood eh?
Those pulling contests and demonstrations are for like 10 feet. Lol not translatable to the real world to any degree.
I grew up on a family farm. We still had a horse and mule team when I was a boy. We ran a big horse with a mule because it will gentle the mule and frequently with his larger size he could push the mule to turn before I had to beat the mule to death. Mule skinner eh? There's a reference on the internet I'm sure.
I can't imagine driving 6 of those cusses. It would be a full time job that's for sure. That's a ton of tackle to deal with twice a day.
But, the bottom line is they can't pull TONS very far or for very long no matter what the internet guru may say. They have to be tended y'know? Fed. watered. rested.Abrasions treated. Hoofs require care. All very much dependent on how heavy the load!

Dominions Son

@Amosbayou

I would p

Capt Zapp

@Amosbayou

But, the bottom line is they can't pull TONS very far or for very long no matter what the internet guru may say.


From Wikipedia

"They traveled from mines across the Mojave Desert to the nearest railroad spur, 165 miles (275 km) away in Mojave."

"The twenty-mule-team wagons were designed to carry 10 short tons (9 metric tons) of borax ore at a time. The rear wheels measured seven feet (2.1 m) high, with tires made of one-inch-thick (25 mm) iron. The wagon beds measured 16 feet long and were 6 feet deep (4.9 m long, 1.8 m deep); constructed of solid oak, they weighed 7,800 pounds (3,500 kg) empty; when loaded with ore, the total weight of the mule train was 73,200 pounds (33.2 metric tons or 36.6 short tons)."

That sure looks like they could pull VERY HEAVY loads for a VERY LONG distance under VERY HARSH conditions.

Even with only 6 mules as EB said, with the reduced weight of the wagons, they would probably not have any problems pulling one-third the load of the twenty mule teams under better conditions.

Replies:   Amosbayou
Ernest Bywater

@Amosbayou

But, the bottom line is they can't pull TONS very far or for very long no matter what the internet guru may say.


You may want to read some history books and diaries from the period involved. many thousands of people crossed the USA with wagons pulled by mules, while thousands of others used horse teams, and some used bullock teams. One of the reasons for mules was they were less likely to run off at high speed on you. Not all mules are as intractable as people make out. Some were specifically bred and trained to pull wagon loads. Yes, they did pull loads of many tons of gear, not fast, but could keep it up all day long for day after day, provided they were properly fed and watered each day and in good harness.

There are plenty of detailed historical records of the crossing from the east to the west in the USA. Many list the tons of gear the people took with them. Most had teams of two or four animals, with some using six. Bullocks, horses, and mules were sued, with people choosing one over the other for various reasons. Horses took a lot more to care for in water and feed than mules or bullocks. But many people went for mules over horses for the simple reason of less risk of runaways.

As to the weight of wagons, the original Conestoga wagons were made from hardwood an inch or more thick, for durability. That's a lot of wood and is very heavy. Much heavier than a quarter inch of Titanium alloy with a light wood laminate on it. It's also a lot stronger.

However, the wood Conestoga could load up to 12,000 pounds, which I never loaded up to in the story, usually less than half that weight.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Amosbayou
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Amosbayou


I would point out that the only number I attained with the use of a simple calculator. You can do that too, Or find an internet reference. either way it's still a ridiculous weight.


Your weight for the gold is more or less correct. Your estimation of what a horse can pull with a wheeled wagon is low by an order of magnitude. Using a 4 wheel wagon, a horse can pull a great deal more than it can simply drag across the ground.


Those pulling contests and demonstrations are for like 10 feet. Lol not translatable to the real world to any degree.


True, but they are also straight sledge drags, not a wheeled wagon.

Oh, and in case you missed it, the top photo in the link I posted on what a horse can pull is a 1940s era photo of four horses pulling a load of logs 6-8 feet high, 12-18 foot wide, and 20-30 feet long. That load likely weighs in at over 10 tons. This is not a contest or a demonstration, but a working logging operation. The likely had to pull that load a good mile or more.


I grew up on a family farm. We still had a horse and mule team when I was a boy.


What were you using them for, plowing? The weight load (for pulling purposes) on a plow team is considerably more than the weight of the plow itself. Soil provides more resistance than air.


But, the bottom line is they can't pull TONS very far or for very long no matter what the internet guru may say.


Sorry, there is documented historical evidence from the 1800s in the US of horses pulling loads up to six tons for 4 to 8 hours a day. This isn't what the internet says, this is what history says.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

and some used bullock teams


The correct American term is ox or oxen.

Amosbayou

@Ernest Bywater

Those crossing took months, even years. At every incline they unloaded the wagon and made several trips. Which is beside the point. My point was that you threw that number of gold in that wagon with no idea how much difference it makes. Granted magic wagon and I guess, magic team. It's juat a little too goofy for me.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Amosbayou


Those crossing took months, even years.


4 to 6 months by wagon, typically traveling 15 miles a day. Of course they were probably only doing around 2 miles an hour.

http://www.frontiertrails.com/oldwest/oregontrail.htm

This is not just some random website, it's documented history.

Amosbayou

@Capt Zapp

Professional teamsters. Paired mules. A fairly short distance. Not really relevant to a family team with tons of gold. plus no one says in the internet guru but i bet they killed those mules on a regular basis

Replies:   Dominions Son  Capt Zapp
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Amosbayou


At every incline they unloaded the wagon and made several trips.


They did not unload wagons at every incline. If a downward grade was sharper than 60 degrees they would lighten the load and take safety measures. For most other steep downgrades they'd use a drag log or a belay rope to keep the downward movement slow. For up inclines they slowed down, and for the real steep up inclines they joined teams. Yes, most took a large part of the spring and summer to cross the huge distances involved involved. However, most of that was wagons passing over open prairie not formed road.

While in the story the great bulk of the travel is on well formed roads that are reasonably flat and hard surfaces from lots of prior travelers on them. That's very different to the open prairie lands. Although towards the end of the migrations many of those trails were roads due to the amount of traffic.

However, you claim I plucked a figure out of the air is false, I worked out the weight of the load and the capabilities of the wagons and mules at the time I wrote the story. If the wagon hadn't have been capable of carrying that load I'd have split it between the wagons. But the research showed it'd work, so I went with it.

I also did a lot of research on how long it took wagons to travel the various roads I used in the story, and actually had my people travel slower than average. there's plenty of historical accounts from the period about the capabilities of the wagons and animals, and how long they took to move loads. Until the railroads started expanding in the 1860s wagons was how all freight moved in most of the USA, and it moved in a timely manner.

Nothing magical at all. despite using a better modern wagon, it was within the capabilities of a Conestoga wagon of the day. No magic animals, either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule

The mule is valued because, while it has the size and ground-covering ability of its dam, it is stronger than a horse of similar size and inherits the endurance and disposition of the donkey sire, tending to require less food than a horse of similar size. Mules also tend to be more independent than most domesticated equines other than the donkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-mule_team

the total weight of the mule train was 73,200 pounds

edit to add: they pulled this weight 165 miles.

..................

73,200 divide by 20 = 3,660 pounds per mule

3,660 pounds x 6 = 21,960 pounds can be pulled by a team of six mules

Thus the several thousand pounds I have them pulling is well within the capability of a six mule team. Nothing magic about it anywhere.

Replies:   Amosbayou  Dominions Son
Amosbayou

@Ernest Bywater

As I said professional teamster and team would have little relevance to a family wagon.
I would point out that historical accounts are rife with tales of household goods discarded along the trail because the pioneers found the teams incapable of pulling the TONS they thought they could.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Amosbayou


Professional teamsters. Paired mules. A fairly short distance.


165 miles through some of the roughest, hottest, harshest terrain the US has to offer is not a fairly short distance. Assuming similar daily distance as what the settlers managed, it's a week and a half trip.


Not really relevant to a family team with tons of gold.


A typical settler team would b 2 to 6 animals, probably averaging 4 and they would have been in pairs, not single column.


but i bet they killed those mules on a regular basis


They would not have deliberately worked the mules to death. A mule is a horse / donkey cross breed and they are sterile, so they can't be bred directly, making mules more valuable. Mules were expensive, valuable animals, costing around $100 in the late 1800s.

The Death Valley borax was low grade, fetching only $0.08 / pound, barely above the production cost.

A ten ton load of borax was worth $1,600. The 20 mule team to pull it was worth $2,000 They would have gone bankrupt very quickly if they had a significant attrition rate for the mules.

Cost of mules: http://www.oregonpioneers.com/oxen.htm

Value of Borax: http://www.desertusa.com/desert-california/borax.html

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

73,200 divide by 20 = 3,660 pounds per mule

3,660 pounds x 6 = 21,960 pounds can be pulled by a team of six mules


Earnest, you are a little off here. From Capt Zapp's post, the wagon was 7,800 pounds, the load 20,000 and
the total train 73,200 pounds. This necessarily includes the weight of the mules and their tack & harness.

To redo it without considering the weight of the mules: 27,800 / 20 = 1390 pounds per mule * 6 = 8,400 pounds, which is still 4 tons. But the Death Valley Borax miners were probably using a much larger team then absolutely necessary to move faster and avoid stressing the individual animals as much. The team was worth more than the load they carried, which was in turn only a little more valuable that what it cost to dig it out of the ground. They couldn't afford to be loosing mules on a regular basis.

Ernest Bywater

@Amosbayou

As I said professional teamster and team would have little relevance to a family wagon.
I would point out that historical accounts are rife with tales of household goods discarded along the trail because the pioneers found the teams incapable of pulling the TONS they thought they could.


First, in the story I mention they were trained in handling the dogs, the horses, and the mules. You don't need 20 years experience to be a good animal handler, you just need to be taught the correct way to handle them.

As to the things discarded on the trail, from the many diary accounts I've read about the migrations they often discarded things to lighten the loads towards the end of the prairie crossing when they'd screwed up and didn't have sufficient water or food with them, so they had to lighten the load to speed up the wagon travel to get to the next waterhole before they had animals dying due to the lack of water. Another common reason for things being discarded was they left too late in the season and had to lighten the load to speed up and get through the mountain passes before they closed for the winter.

BTW Some groups also made the trip with only hand carts and little more than clothes, food and water. Not all made it through, due to the problems stated above.

For centuries prior to the invention of the motor lorry mules, and horses, have been dragging tons of freight over roads all over the world. Wagons loaded down with tons of gear were common on many roads. As were animals hauling cannon weighing tons as part of military convoys.

Dominions Son

@Amosbayou

I would point out that historical accounts are rife with tales of household goods discarded along the trail because the pioneers found the teams incapable of pulling the TONS they thought they could.


There are several reasons for this that are not the one you are thinking of.

Some tried to do it with a single pair of animals because the animals were expensive.

However most did start out with larger teams.

However they had to weather attacks from the natives and other events that caused the loss of animals on the team, but they had no way to replace lost animals mid trip so they were forced to lighten the load.

Another reason for abandoned goods was the loss of wagons themselves. Some larger families left with 2 or three wagons or several families traveled together. The wagons occasionally broke down and were nearly impossible to repair mid journey. If you started with two wagons and lost one, you could put both teams on one wagon, but you can still only put so much in one wagon and some of the load would have to be abandoned.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Earnest, you are a little off here.


Mind you, I'm not sure if the quoted size they give is for the train with the animals or not, I'm used to seeing such figures for the weight of the load being shifted and not including the animals.

The train consists of two wagons, each of which weighs 7,800 pound empty and each takes 10 tons of ore, making each loaded wagon 27,800 pounds. To which they then added a tank of 1,200 gallons of water which is close to another 10,000 pounds, plus four water barrels they don't give the weight of. So that's 65,600 pounds there. So we'll start with that and divide by 20 to get 3,280 pounds per animal.

3,280 x 6 still means a load of 19,680 pounds they can pull.

BTW on the figure the mules must be about 7,600 pounds with their tack, so they come out as 380 pounds each - making them on the small to medium size. Mules can go up to 1,000 pounds each. The bigger the mule the heavier load it can take.

However you want to play with the figures, the weight I use in the story is well within the capabilities of the wagon and mules to shift it along.

Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

True Switch, but even if I'd used the standard wagons of the day it was well within the capabilities of the wagons.


Oh, I wasn't implying anything other than sometimes you can be unrealistic (like having a transporter in your story).

But when it's a real thing, it should be realistic. I once had a Lear jet in a story that I found out wouldn't have enough fuel to fly from Calif to the South Pacific. I had to change the jet. Also, I referenced the composition of the jet being steel. A reader told me they're aluminum so I changed steel to metal. Those things need to be correct.

Crumbly Writer

@sejintenej

Of course stories are fantasy. Unless you are in a foxhole in Afghanistan what events have happened to you in the past 30 days which would make a good long story? Life is an eon of quiet followed by an hour or three of chaos - doesn't make for a story

D.S. has a point, but what you're describing is hardly wish-fulfullment. If anything, Ernest writes some of the most fact-filled stories going. "Wish Fulfillment" involves the main character having an 8" cock who can seduce any woman he sees. "Fantasy" is a broad category which incorporates all fiction, but is generally restricted to stories concerning imaginary worlds or situations beyond the scope of normal physics--none of which occur in the story you're describing. (When you're discussing details with authors, we get picky about the terms used, since our job is picking the ideal words for the situation.)

Yes, we'll often get things wrong, but that's not for want of proper research. More often, it's for subjects we never considered--such as you're not taking into account the difference between towing and acceleration, or modern vs. 19th century technologies. Those are human falacies, and one which Content Editors can help with, but those cost a pretty penny--and even the best mainstream authors get plenty of details wrong in order to make things work in a story.

Despite the sound of most of the responses, I'm glad you brought the subject up, as it's one which needs to be vetted--especially if the story needs to clarify the position for more readers to understand it. The "Story Discussion and Feedback" forum is the place to discuss such topics. However, as I said earlier, the words we use is important to any discussion. I doubt that any of the responses here were malicious, rather the respondents were upset by the story classifications and improper calculations (i.e. they weren't personal attacks, although they sounded like it).

docholladay

@Switch Blayde

But when it's a real thing, it should be realistic. I once had a Lear jet in a story that I found out wouldn't have enough fuel to fly from Calif to the South Pacific. I had to change the jet. Also, I referenced the composition of the jet being steel. A reader told me they're aluminum so I changed steel to metal. Those things need to be correct.


That is why sometimes the fine details can cause a lot of trouble for a writer. Sure they are needed at times like if you have a gun or car or whatever customized a huge amount. The details of the customization would probably be more important.

Another reason for people lightening the loads on those wagons, was due to the fact that many of them were overloaded to start with. I am not sure how much of a factor that was.

Capt Zapp

@Amosbayou

Professional teamsters. Paired mules. A fairly short distance. Not really relevant to a family team with tons of gold.


Of course they were professionals. And how did they get that way? From experience. And anyone driving mules or any other animal would be a damned fool if they were not paired. And no matter the TOTAL distance traveled, You can only go so far in a day, so distance isn't a factor.

plus no one says in the internet guru but i bet they killed those mules on a regular basis


"Between 1883 and 1889, the twenty mule teams hauled more than 20 million pounds of borax out of the Valley. During this time, not a single animal was lost, nor did a single wagon break down - " http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/borax-20muleteam.htm

So much for that argument.

Can't claim it was all flat either. Elevation change was almost 2,200 feet. Oh, and there were mountain passes to go through as well.

Why not just admit that you were wrong?

Capt Zapp

@Dominions Son

They couldn't afford to be loosing mules on a regular basis.

Just to back up your statement:

According to http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/borax-20muleteam.htm "Between 1883 and 1889, the twenty mule teams hauled more than 20 million pounds of borax out of the Valley. During this time, not a single animal was lost, nor did a single wagon break down.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

I once had a Lear jet in a story that I found out wouldn't have enough fuel to fly from Calif to the South Pacific.


That's why Al has an A318 with the long range tanks installed. It had to be able to land and take off from Frederick Airport and cross the Pacific with a decent load.

Amosbayou

it's interesting that you find a professional team hauling borax no less as the only comparison that stands up to hauling 2 tons of gold along with tons of household goods. Makes sense to me. It's only a trifle more ridiculous than the whole magic titanium wagon, which I believe was originally a Cmsix creation.
That advertisement for a product is most likely more artistic license. But only if you think about it. If it were true, don't you think a team of pros would have had way stations along the way. With personel to do all those extra handling jobs. Oh, and most likely changed those mules a time or two.
Sorry guys. You may be internet whizzes but I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. :-)

Ernest Bywater

@Amosbayou

Take time out and read diaries, and also take some time out to learn how to handle animals properly. A professional animal handler is one who's done the appropriate training, as did happen in the story you're trying to trash. A well trained animal is easily handled and worked by anyone who has the training.

As to the Borax operation, if you bothered to read any of the referenced articles you'll find that the single set of mules traveled out to the mine with a load of supplies they dropped off at various camps along the way, delivered supplies to the mine itself, then started back with a load of ore, stopping at the camps where they left the supplies for them to consume on the way back. Due to the lack of water and local feed they couldn't change mules along the way, so one team did the whole trip.

As to the use of the titanium alloy in the wagon, that was to make it stronger and safer, and lighter than the original wood ones. Anyone who has the opportunity to use a stronger and safer tool is an idiot not to do so.

There's nothing magical about the wagon or the mules or the handling. I'd hate to handle mules without any training, just as I hated going near horses, cattle, and sheep until I was properly trained in how to handle them, but have no issues because I was trained.

You need to check the historical facts.

Replies:   Amosbayou
Dominions Son

@Capt Zapp

During this time, not a single animal was lost, nor did a single wagon break down.


Not something I was aware of. I actually would have expected some losses over that time. My point was that mules were expensive enough at the time and their operation low enough margin that they couldn't possibly afford to deliberately drive them to death.

That they took good enough care of them to lose not one over six years to injury or disease is quite remarkable.

Amosbayou

@Ernest Bywater

Sorry Ernest. I haven't finished one of your stories so far and I guess I am not likely to. Thats neither here nor there. But dont take a tone with me. I am sure I read as much as you do. Judging by your fractured fantasies I at least read enough to know bad fiction when I see it. The saving grace to Cmsix use of the titanium wagon was that his stories had a sense of humor. Your stories take themselves way too seriously, and thus fall on their face.
Now I only meant to have some fun with the two tons of gold. But some people just can't take a joke.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  tppm
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Amosbayou


You may be internet whizzes but I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. :-)


Internet be damned. I just use that for cites, so you could maybe learn something. The basic information that horses and mules were used for centuries to haul multi ton loads over long distances is something I learned in primary school history classes long before the internet was dreamed of.

The coast to cost distance across the US is over 2000 miles. Nearly all of the major rivers run North to South. How do you imagine that freight was moved across the US before the development of the trans continental railroad? Mostly it was moved by horses and mules.

This is well known and well documented.

Replies:   Amosbayou
Amosbayou

@Dominions Son

I think you need lithium. Bring up the Nazi's so we can close this thread. Godwins' law I think. Hehe

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Amosbayou


I think you need lithium. Bring up the Nazi's so we can close this thread. Godwins' law I think. Hehe


I think you need a clue.

By the way Godwin's law doesn't say anything about ending the tread or who wins the discussion. All it says is that the probability that certain historical villains will be mentioned increases as an on-line discussion grows longer until it approaches unity. You didn't even get that part right.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Amosbayou

Now I only meant to have some fun with the two tons of gold. But some people just can't take a joke.


It didn't come across as a joke, and more than I didn't see it as a joke. Nor does it help for you to keep claiming proven facts are wrong.

I know some people don't like my style of writing, and some people don't like some of my subjects, that's their choice and right. However, some people do like them.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

All it says is that the probability that certain historical villains will be mentioned increases as an on-line discussion grows longer until it approaches unity


Can we switch to using the Mongol raiders as the historical villains, they were a lot more colorful?

Crumbly Writer

I hate to say it, but I don't think this prolonged discussion is resolving anything. Amosbayou clearly hates anything that Ernest writes, cataloging it as "Wish Fulfillment" (???). He's got his set response concerning 'internet wizards' for any response, and he's not about to backtrack. Just let him be, or this will drag on forever.

You can't argue with a troll, and while I believe he started this discussion honestly, it's degraded into blatant name-calling. If he thinks a titanium wagon is more unrealistic than time-travel, that's his own opinion. Personally, I'd be glad he's not reading any more of your stories!

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Trolls, internet wizards, all we need is a dragon and a warrior and this thread will be high fantasy.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Trolls, internet wizards, all we need is a dragon and a warrior and this thread will be high fantasy.

Amosbayou
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

Now Crumbly, lets not put words in my mouth, please. I don't HATE anyone. And as I said this discussion was about the weight of gold. These jokers brought up all this other stuff to minimize the glaring gold error. I'm surprised you are all so thin skinned. Also a troll is name-calling is it not?

Still through all this thread I am the only one who has actually driven a team. Have hands on experience.

That's a bit different than a google don't you think?
I would also point out that I did not mention Ernest nor the story in my original post. No one had to react to what wasn't said.

Dominions Son

@Amosbayou

And as I said this discussion was about the weight of gold. These jokers brought up all this other stuff to minimize the glaring gold error. I'm surprised you are all so thin skinned.


No, the discussion was about whether or not horses and or mules could pull that amount of gold. That was your original complaint about realism in a story.

Still through all this thread I am the only one who has actually driven a team. Have hands on experience.


So you claim. I for one don't buy it. And even if you have, a plow team is very different from a wagon team.

A wagon provides a significant advantage in pulling a load with human or animal power. It's simple enough to prove that you can pull far more weight in a four wheel cart than it a two wheel cart and more weight in a two wheel cart than in a single wheel wheelbarrow and more weight in a wheelbarrow than you can drag along the ground.

I don't believe that you have driven an actual team because you are claiming things in regards to how much a horse or mule can pull that is contrary to documented history.

Grant

Don't feed the trolls.

Replies:   Grant
Ernest Bywater

@Amosbayou

I would also point out that I did not mention Ernest nor the story in my original post. No one had to react to what wasn't said.


True, you didn't name me directly, but how many Aussie authors are there on SoL who've written a story with a mule team hauling a wagon with a million dollars of gold coin set in the mid 1800s? I think the clues kind of narrow it down.

References have been cited to show the weight was within the capabilities of the wagon (be it wood or metal) and the animals involved. So it is a realistic activity and event capable of happening. The only step outside realism in the whole story is the use of the time travel device at the start. And that is known as a plot device.

tppm

@Amosbayou

Now I only meant to have some fun with the two tons of gold. But some people just can't take a joke.


I've read this whole thread to here. There was a joke hidden in there somewhere? If so it went right over my head.

Replies:   Amosbayou
Amosbayou

@tppm

like I said. Some people just can't take a joke. :-)

Replies:   docholladay  Capt Zapp
docholladay

@Amosbayou

None of your comments in this thread had any hint of a joke in them that I could see. Then again I am just a reader.

Replies:   Amosbayou
Amosbayou

@docholladay

Ah well. Didn't get it eh? If you get it, its funny. If you don't it isn't. Such is life eh?

Capt Zapp

@Amosbayou

like I said. Some people just can't take a joke. :-)


The only thing I have seen that you have posted in this entire thread that even hints at being humorous is the smiley at the end of that comment.

Amosbayou

Well thank you. At least I know you are not a total prig.

Grant

@Grant

Don't feed the trolls.

Just a reminder.

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