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The correct abreviation for Until?

G Younger

I've been using 'til. One of my editors did some research.

---

Well, I distinctly remember being told that 'til is the appropriate abbreviation for until, and that till is either a verb meaning to turn the soil or a noun meaning a cash drawer.

I can't tell who told me that, most likely due to excessive use of recreational substances in my misspent youth. I've found others online who remember being taught the same.

One post on TheFreeDictionary forum says simply, "the 'til I was so carefully (carelessly?) taught is a spelling error!"

A number of sources I regard as authoritative confirm that (the spelling error part, not the part about being taught).

Although my favorite source, Maryanne Webber, says 'til is "in widespread use (especially when a writer is attempting to replicate colloquial speech)," there's a rather large and vocal crowd that says otherwise:

- Grammarly says that "major usage dictionaries and style guides consider 'til an error." "Till isn't an abbreviation for until, but it means the same thing as until."

- Grammarist says 'til is "an unnecessary abbreviation", though they note that "many Americans mistakenly view till as incorrect" and that "prejudice against till leads many writers, especially in the U.S., to use 'til... there's no reason 'til should not be till. [I suspect that somewhere along the line one of my English teachers held that prejudice, which I then adopted]

- Grammar Girl says "you should never use 'til"

- The AP says, "till Or until. But not 'til."

- The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language says 'til is "etymologically incorrect"

- The Chicago Manual of Style says "till. This is a perfectly good preposition and conjunction. It is not a contraction of 'until' and should not be written 'til."

- Garner's Modern English Usage calls 'til "incorrect" with "no literary history" [other sources indicate the "no literary history" part is BS, but they still say it's wrong to use 'til]

- GrammarBook says, "Always use till. You won't find a reference book anywhere that recommends 'til."

- The OED, Dictionary.com, The Free Dictionary, and more all say more or less the same thing: until, or till, but not 'til.

Thoughts?

G Younger

REP

@G Younger

Heritage


We butcher the English language through usage. We like the way we butchered it and continue to use the butchered form. Eventually, it becomes common usage and the accepted method. Then, the Grammar Nazi's accept it.

I think 'til is generally accepted even if it is wrong.

Replies:   Joe Long
Ernest Bywater

using the word 'til is a well used contraction of the word until that's used in dialogue and poetry. It's been used as such for hundreds of years and a highly acceptable usage. While I'd use it in dialogue, I'd not use it in narrative.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

Oddly enough, I found a lot of US references who think it's 'till and they say you shouldn't use it. However, 'til is an abbreviated from of until which is from the Old Norse un + til so there is only one 'l' in it, never two. I did find these links which list 'til as a valid alternative to until:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/-til

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/til

I did find a Miriam-Webster usage note that advises against using anything but until in formal writing and promotes the use of till over 'til - they're a weird mob over there at MW.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Joe Long

@REP

I think 'til is generally accepted even if it is wrong.


Wrong? I thought it's one that's been around since before my childhood and still hangs on.

What time is it?
A quarter 'til ten.


There is no way anyone would ever say a quarter until ten. 'til is the only usage in that common phrasing. It's not till because of the additional 'l'

Replies:   REP
Ross at Play

I would regard all three, till, til, and 'til, as acceptable alternative spellings of the abbreviated form of until, with no reason for anyone to assert any is wrong.
You need the option of using some abbreviated form in informal writing. Having made my choice, I would use it consistently.
Even for informal writing, I'd be reluctant to use any abbreviated form in narrative, unless it was written in 1-POV using a character's voice.
The only thing I see as being problematic is using 'til at the start of any sentence. It feels a bit messy starting dialogue with an added space, as in:
" 'Til ...
My solution to that would be to always prefer to start sentences with Until.

Geek of Ages
Updated:

An etymological dictionary might shed some light...

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=Til

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=until&allowed_in_frame=0

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@G Younger

Damn, and here I've always thought that "till" is the cash register or a business's daily income.

I generally tend to take Grammar Girl's advice, especially if it's backed up by other sources, but in this case, I don't see many objecting.

"Daily take, we meet again!" 'D

By the way, Marrian-Webster says that till, 'til and til are all valid uses of the work, though "till" is the most common and til is rarely used.

Replies:   Joe Long
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

using the word 'til is a well used contraction of the word until that's used in dialogue and poetry. It's been used as such for hundreds of years and a highly acceptable usage. While I'd use it in dialogue, I'd not use it in narrative.

It's NOT "'Til death do we part", it's "Till death do we part". According to most of the etymological sources, it was never a contraction, but was instead a misusage of "till" (though I haven't checked many references to be sure of this).

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Oddly enough, I found a lot of US references who think it's 'till and they say you shouldn't use it. However, 'til is an abbreviated from of until which is from the Old Norse un + til so there is only one 'l' in it, never two.

According to Merrain-Webster, "till" dates from the 12th Century, borrowed from Scottish. It's actually a part of Middle-English (from before the time of Shakespeare). That makes "till" the original usage, rather than a derivative.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Crumbly Writer

@Geek of Ages

An etymological dictionary might shed some light...

Not really. They don't even list when 'til come in common English usage.

Joe Long

@Crumbly Writer

Marrian-Webster says that till


I say no because you can't contract by adding letters to the end.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

It's NOT "'Til death do we part", it's "Till death do we part".


CW,

If you check all your old English poetry books and literature you'll find it's 'til and the phrase is 'til death do us part. However, for some reason a lot of US people now use 'till - I suspect it's another case of the 'we can't spell right so we're making everyone else change' crowd changes. The use of till in this way seems to be a recent US thing, because we have:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Til_Death_Do_Us_Part_(film)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Til_Death_Do_Us_Part_(Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Til_Death_Do_Us_Part_(U.S._TV_series)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Til_We_Meet_Again

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Til_I_Hear_It_from_You

There are some more recent films and song where they use till.

From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Rankin

Rankin is best known as author of the hymns "God Be with You 'Til we Meet Again" and "Tell It to Jesus."

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

According to Merrain-Webster, "till" dates from the 12th Century, borrowed from Scottish. It's actually a part of Middle-English (from before the time of Shakespeare). That makes "till" the original usage, rather than a derivative.


Yet the 1960s Greater Webster lists the word until as being from Old Norse which is about a millennium older than what you cite. The etymology link given earlier by Geek of Ages has it as Old English from Old Norse and Proto-Germanic and notes the Scottish also had until as intill and intil.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

If you check all your old English poetry books and literature you'll find it's 'til and the phrase is 'til death do us part. However, for some reason a lot of US people now use 'till - I suspect it's another case of the 'we can't spell right so we're making everyone else change' crowd changes.

Sorry, rather than using recent movies about Shakespeare as a reference, I'm basing my decision on the etyomological history, which establishes that "till" has been used since the 12th century. Apparently, as near as I can tell, it came from the Scottish and old Norse til, became till in English, until people recently assumed it's an abbreviation of "until" and changed it to 'til, which has NO etymological evidence. I haven't seen ANY etymologies of the American use of "til" or "'til".

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Yet the 1960s Greater Webster lists the word until as being from Old Norse which is about a millennium older than what you cite.

No, you're not following the etymology. "Until" and "till" both derive from the Scottish and Norwegian "til", but "Til" was NOT used in Middle English, and only came into use recently as an 'assumed' contraction.

The key when reading ANY etymology is to trace the 'first recorded usage', not the source from which we adopted it. The source gives insights about its origins and usage, but like Latin, we rarely use the same form as the original word.

Capt. Zapp

@G Younger

I've used 'til all my life and never had anyone tell me it was incorrect, so I will keep using 'til 'til the cows come home. If any readers can't deal with 'til in my stories, they can look elsewhere 'til they find something they like.

:)

CZ

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Switch Blayde

@G Younger

'til is used in dialogue when the speaker doesn't say the "un" but not in the narrative. Like freakin' when he doesn't pronounce the "g."

I believe till is used in British English.

Ernest Bywater

All I've ever seen in British English, and any other printed versions until some very recent stuff from the USA have been:

till = is about working a field

till = is where you put the money in a ship

'til = truncated form of until.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


All I've ever seen in British English


From the Oxford dictionary:

Till

Usage

In most contexts, till and until have the same meaning and are interchangeable. The main difference is that till is generally considered to be more informal than until. Until occurs much more frequently than till in writing. In addition, until tends to be the natural choice at the beginning of a sentence: until very recently, there was still a chance of rescuing the situation. Interestingly, while it is commonly assumed that till is an abbreviated form of until (the spellings 'till and 'til reflect this), till is in fact the earlier form. Until appears to have been formed by the addition of Old Norse und ('as far as') several hundred years after the date of the first records for till


Whereas the Merriam-Webster dictionary says:

Definition of till

1 or 'til or less commonly til : until

2 chiefly Scotland : to

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

All I've ever seen in British English, and any other printed versions until some very recent stuff from the USA


Try reading some William Shakespear.

Sonnet 43:

All days are nights to see till I see thee,
And nights bright days when dreams do show thee me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnet_43

Romeo and Juliet Act 1 BENVOLIO
http://shakespeare.mit.edu/romeo_juliet/full.html

Here were the servants of your adversary,
And yours, close fighting ere I did approach:
I drew to part them: in the instant came
The fiery Tybalt, with his sword prepared,
Which, as he breathed defiance to my ears,
He swung about his head and cut the winds,
Who nothing hurt withal hiss'd him in scorn:
While we were interchanging thrusts and blows,
Came more and more and fought on part and part,
Till the prince came, who parted either part.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Try reading some William Shakespear.


never liked him, so i gave up on him after the one compulsory play of his at school.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

never liked him, so i gave up on him after the one compulsory play of his at school.


Fine, but he and a lot of other British writers and playwrights used till, not til or 'til in the 17th century.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Joe Long
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Fine, but he and a lot of other British writers and playwrights used till, not til or 'til in the 17th century.

awnlee jawking
Updated:

@Capt. Zapp

It's correct as a contraction of until (cf 'bus and omnibus) but like 'bus, it's becoming increasingly rare in English English and considered affected. I'd use until or the synonymous till, the existence of which seems to have pre-empted the simple dropping of the apostrophe.

AJ

Crumbly Writer

Now I'm curious about the differences in the use of till and 'til in Brit and American English. None of the references I've seen so far have indicated that there's any differences, and in fact, most people on the thread continue to insist they've NEVER seen till used—despite repeated example from Shakespeare which they continue to insist are wrong (since Shakespeare NEVER used the word "till").

Is there any indication, anywhere, that this is a regional usage, or simply a colossal misunderstanding of the word and it's roots?

Ernest Bywater

My 1934 British Empire Dictionary of the English Language, 1964 Websters New Twentieth Century Dictionary, and the 1988 Reader's Digest Universal Dictionary all have the word until as being derived through Middle English from Old Norse with the spelling of the old words having only a single 'l,' and they also list the truncated version as 'til.

What is interesting is the number of US on-line sites that list 'til as a wrong spelling form of 'till.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

DS, in both those cases Will isn't using the truncated form of until but the full middle English word till which is a different word with a similar meaning. The question isn't about the full word till, but about the truncated form of until as 'til with the apostrophe.

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

Now I'm curious about the differences in the use of till and 'til in Brit and American English.


First, the only place I think 'til is correctly used is in dialogue, and only when the character doesn't pronounce the "un". And then it should be 'til and not till.

Now is "till" a word? Evidently it is, especially in British English; maybe predominantly in Scotland (per Merriam-Webster).

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

From the Grammarist:

Till, as a variant of until, is a preposition meaning up to the time of. Till—not 'til, an unnecessary abbreviation—has been in the language for centuries, and there's no reason not to use it. To some it may sound less formal than until, but the two words are interchangeable in almost all contexts.

Because many Americans mistakenly view till as incorrect—we're not sure why this is—the word is much more common outside the U.S. (though until is far more common everywhere).


ETA:Grammar Girl says basically the same thing.

When you're talking about a period of time that must lapse before something happens, till and until are equivalent. Don't believe it? Check a dictionary. Some sources say that until sometimes has a more formal sound than till, but often the two words are just interchangeable.

And till isn't contraction of until either. They're two separate words, and till actually came first. It's the older word, first used in the 12th century. People didn't start using until until the 13th century.

Nearly all the style guides I checked recommended against using 'til.

Many style guides also go out of their way to emphasize that till is fine, which is often a clue that at some point people said it wasn't; and given that I've had to answer questions about disputes over the word, I think that if you want to completely avoid controversy, it's safest to stick with until. But I'll do my part and say there's absolutely nothing wrong with till.

Joe Long

@Dominions Son

Fine, but he and a lot of other British writers and playwrights used till, not til or 'til in the 17th century.


Are you sure that's the spelling actually used by Shakespeare, or a modern printing?

Joe Long

@Switch Blayde

Because many Americans mistakenly view till as incorrect—we're not sure why this is—the word is much more common outside the U.S. (though until is far more common everywhere).


This may explain my personal experience growing up in the US. In 58 years never thought till was a correct word in this circumstance.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Wheezer

The only place I've ever seen or heard the word 'till' is in reference to farming & gardening. Tilling is preparing the earth for planting, usually following plowing. A tiller is the piece of equipment a farmer or gardener uses to till the soil.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

From the Grammarist:

ETA: Grammar Girl says basically the same thing.

Okay. Point settled. Once again, we've established that the Australian educational system teaches it's own version of English, including variations of UK based dictionaries.

I stand corrected. (I'll always side with documented source material over individual memories of what they think they were taught in school. Anecdotal evidence is highly problematic, even in the best of circumstances.

Crumbly Writer

@Joe Long

Are you sure that's the spelling actually used by Shakespeare, or a modern printing?

All evidence suggests it is, since 'til isn't recorded as being used until recently (I'm guessing mid-20th century).

Unfortunately, I seem to have misplaced my original signed copy of Shakespeare's plays somewhere, so I can't give you a 'definitive' answer. ::(

Crumbly Writer

@Joe Long

This may explain my personal experience growing up in the US. In 58 years never thought till was a correct word in this circumstance.

Neither did I. In fact, as I stated early on in this thread, I thought "till" was a separate word, completely unrelated to "until".

Crumbly Writer

@Wheezer

The only place I've ever seen or heard the word 'till' is in reference to farming & gardening. Tilling is preparing the earth for planting, usually following plowing. A tiller is the piece of equipment a farmer or gardener uses to till the soil.

It's a separate (alternate) definition of till, as is it's use as a synonym for 'cash collection' or daily sales total.

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

All evidence suggests it is, since 'til isn't recorded as being used until recently (I'm guessing mid-20th century).


One other thing. I said 'til should be used in dialogue when the character says "until" without pronouncing the "un". After reading Grammar Girl's blog, I don't think that's true. She said 'til first started in the 1980s. So when a character is saying 'til, they're probably saying till.

awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

From the Grammarist:
Till, as a variant of until


Ernest is right, 'till' and 'until' have different etymologies. The Grammarist is wrong - the two words might effectively be synonyms but 'till' is in no sense a variant of 'until'.

Fortunately Grammar Girl has done 'her' research properly!

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Capt. Zapp

@Switch Blayde

One other thing. I said 'til should be used in dialogue when the character says "until" without pronouncing the "un". After reading Grammar Girl's blog, I don't think that's true. She said 'til first started in the 1980s.


Then Grammar Girl is wrong. I remember using it in the late 60's - early 70's. Whether it was used before then I wouldn't know since I wasn't born 'til 1960. ;)

Replies:   Switch Blayde
REP

@Joe Long

Wrong?


Yes, wrong according to Nazi grammarists.

REP

Ignore this entire post.


CW, Ernest expressed his opinion. Whether we agree with opinions expressed by others, we need to respect their right to express their opinion. Telling the rest of us to ignore Ernest's opinion is Censorship.

Switch Blayde

@Capt. Zapp

Then Grammar Girl is wrong. I remember using it in the late 60's - early 70's. Whether it was used before then I wouldn't know since I wasn't born 'til 1960. ;)


My mistake. Grammar Girl was quoting someone else:

In fact, Garner's says people didn't really even start thinking 'til was OK until the 1980s, so it's a quite recent error.

robberhands

@REP

CW aske to ignore his (CW's) post, not Ernest's. Self-censorship is very much appreciated, I even wish CW would use it more often.

Replies:   REP
Ernest Bywater

There's a lot of contusion going on because some people are missing the difference between the word with the apostrophe which is truncated word, and the whole word without the apostrophe.

'til - an apostrophe with three letters is the truncated version of the word until which is used in dialogue and in poetry.

The four letter word till has a number of meanings and uses, relating to farming, shops, and even time, but not with an apostrophe before it.

However, some US on-line websites are now promoting the use of the four letter word with the apostrophe as the truncated version of until. In my first post on this I mentioned used the three letter word with the apostrophe in dialogue and poetry as an accepted practice. Since then I've posted many references supporting the use of the truncated three letter version with the apostrophe, and even mentioned some recent US four letter ones with an apostrophe. I've even mentioned the source word as stated in a number of dictionaries, which is a three letter word. The old print dictionaries I have mention the various meanings for the four letter word, and not one has the four letter version with an apostrophe, while all three list the apostrophe with the three letter version as the truncated form of until.

Regardless of if you think it should be the three letter word with a single 'l' or the four letter with the double 'l' it should not be used in narrative or any formal document as a replacement for until. The truncated form is used in speech and informal works.

That's all, 'til we meet again in another thread.

REP

@robberhands

CW aske to ignore his (CW's) post,


If CW was telling us to ignore his post before he posted it, I would expect him to have not posted it.

Now if CW wasn't attempting to censor SB or EB by telling us to ignore what they had to say, then I apologize for my remark.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@REP

That's from CW's post:

However, I'm leaving my post up so readers will know where the argument originated.

I'm certain he'll graciously accept your apology.

Dominions Son

@Joe Long

Are you sure that's the spelling actually used by Shakespeare


Yes.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

What is interesting is the number of US on-line sites that list 'til as a wrong spelling form of 'till.


I found several sources which said that both Middle English and Old Norse sources had it both with a single and a double l. The source I found suggested that both were accepted alternative spellings of the same word, and did not call either incorrect.

Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

Regardless of if you think it should be the three letter word with a single 'l' or the four letter with the double 'l' it should not be used in narrative or any formal document as a replacement for until. The truncated form is used in speech and informal works.

I would agree with you if had said "I recommend against using either ...", I do not think you're entitled to say "should not".
The form 'till' is not a truncated version of 'until' - it is a different, valid and complete word in its own right.
I would only use 'until' in the situations you suggest, but not because 'till' is in any way wrong. I would do so only because too many readers would mistakenly believe there was something wrong with its use.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


It's a separate (alternate) definition of till, as is it's use as a synonym for 'cash collection' or daily sales total.


Actually in that second contest, till is not the 'cash collection' or daily sales total, it's the drawer or box the cash is kept in.

From dictionary.com

till3

[til]

noun

1.

a drawer, box, or the like, as in a shop or bank, in which money is kept.

2.

a drawer, tray, or the like, as in a cabinet or chest, for keeping valuables.

3.

an arrangement of drawers or pigeonholes, as on a desk top.


The drawer in a cash register where the money is kept is still known as a till.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Dominions Son

The drawer in a cash register where the money is kept is still known as a till.


In English English, the whole cash register is also called a till (Oxford English Dictionary).

AJ

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

One other thing. I said 'til should be used in dialogue when the character says "until" without pronouncing the "un". After reading Grammar Girl's blog, I don't think that's true. She said 'til first started in the 1980s. So when a character is saying 'til, they're probably saying till.

Although "till" seems, by all account, to be the correct use, I suspect the ONLY way you can use it in dialogue, without several people flagging it as an error, is to have someone else correct a character for using 'til incorrectly, thus establishing the correct usage to readers.

But then, who the hell wants to write a story about grammar Nazi's correcting everyone's word usage! :(

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

Ernest is right, 'till' and 'until' have different etymologies. The Grammarist is wrong - the two words might effectively be synonyms but 'till' is in no sense a variant of 'until'.

No, we established that early on, since "until" came into usage (first recorded English usage) much later than "till" did. I never did get a sense for WHY "until" came into usage if we already had a word for it.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

who the hell wants to write a story about grammar Nazi's correcting everyone's word usage! :(

I have deleted the post which was here.

Replies:   Geek of Ages
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

But then, who the hell wants to write a story about grammar Nazi's correcting everyone's word usage! :(

You have to give it a more positive title. Maybe something like "The Grammar Guardian"; and the story is about a heroic editor saving the English language from atrocities and torture.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


is to have someone else correct a character for using 'til incorrectly,


I saw that in the movie "The Final Season."

The Sean Austin character was talking to a newspaperman on the team bus and used "like." The newspaperman corrected him, saying, "As." Sean Austin said, "Huh?" The newspaperman said, "Never mind."

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Switch Blayde

"Never mind."

Exactly, just another lost battle.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@G Younger


I've been using 'til. One of my editors did some research.


Of course it's wrong. After all, who would ever say, " 'til death do us part"? Or write a song about somebody's flag that was there " 'til the dawn's early light"?

Now, perhaps we could discuss " 'tis"? Or is it " 't'is"? Or??

bb

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

Or write a song about somebody's flag that was there " 'til the dawn's early light"?


Except no one wrote the song you are thinking of. The line from the Francis Scot Key poem that became our national anthem is "by the dawn's early light".

https://amhistory.si.edu/starspangledbanner/pdf/ssb_lyrics.pdf

O say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright
stars through the perilous fight
O'er the ramparts we watch'd were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bomb bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that
our flag was still there,
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?


Neither till nor 'til, nor even until appears anywhere in the Star Spangled Banner.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Geek of Ages

@Crumbly Writer

But then, who the hell wants to write a story about grammar Nazi's correcting everyone's word usage! :(


I dunno...a teacher/student piece, where she intentionally writes poorly to catch her teacher's attention, and he "corrects" her in private.

Or an erotic take on My Fair Lady. That could actually be pretty good

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Geek of Ages

But then, who the hell wants to write a story about grammar Nazi's correcting everyone's word usage! :(

It doesn't even need to be fiction. It could be about Madame Strunk's Private Club for Naughty Gentlemen in Chicago.

Geek of Ages
Updated:

@Ross at Play

I approve of this flash fiction. I vote 10.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Geek of Ages

It was not mine.
It will be flash fiction too. To be safe, I'm going to delete it after 24 hours.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

CW, Ernest expressed his opinion. Whether we agree with opinions expressed by others, we need to respect their right to express their opinion. Telling the rest of us to ignore Ernest's opinion is Censorship.

Alas, I didn't convey what I intended. I meant, that based on what was revealed in the next post by Switch, my own statement was voided (i.e. it became meaningless). However, I left it I thought others might comment on it and I wanted a record of it if they did.

No attack on Ernest was intended (aside from my casual comments about Australian education, since our 'Australian contingent' keeps protesting that they've 'never encountered' so many things which are public knowledge).

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Regardless of if you think it should be the three letter word with a single 'l' or the four letter with the double 'l' it should not be used in narrative or any formal document as a replacement for until. The truncated form is used in speech and informal works.

In the end, whether you use 'til or till, someone is likely to complain. Your safest bet, is to continue using "until", as it universally accepted and no one disagrees over its use.

It doesn't really matter if some people have seen one version, or others don't accept the other, you pick the one that everyone does agree on and move on. Wasting time arguing over unwinnable arguments helps no one.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Dominions Son


Neither till nor 'til, nor even until appears anywhere in the Star Spangled Banner.


It all depends upon which part of the Internet one consults, apparently.

bb

ETA: Oops, sorry, forgot to add the correct tag: #FAKE Internet

(OK, bad joke.)

madnige

@Ernest Bywater

All I've ever seen in British English, and any other printed versions until some very recent stuff from the USA have been:

till = is about working a field

till = is where you put the money in a [shop]

'til = truncated form of until.


There was a popular BBC sit-com in the 60s and 70s called 'Till_Death_Us_Do_Part'. I think that shows the till version to have been both correct and in common usage in British English a half-century ago

Ernest Bywater

@madnige

Since my last post on this I've been trying to keep out of this, however, your last post shows you either didn't read or didn't understand what I said in my posts.

The people in this discussion have been confusing two differed words with different spellings, and it doesn't help that certain US sites are doing the same.

One word till - four letters no apostrophe before, no truncation of from another word. Four letter and complete as whole. This has a number of meanings from different root sources. It can refer to what many now call a cash register in a shop, work on a field when farming, and a reference to a future time.

The other word which was asked about in the original posts is the truncated version of until - different root source but also references a future time. The word until has a truncated form of a three letter word with an apostrophe before it of 'til.

In the TV series you mention they use the four letter word. I can see how the title apostrophe before the first word and after the last word may cause confusion, but the apostrophe is not part of the word till, it's to highlight a title.

Now, you can agree with what I've said and provided link to, or you can disagree. However, I think this subject has reached it's limit and nothing extra or new will come from continuing it.

Replies:   awnlee_jawking
awnlee jawking

@madnige

I watched it sometimes! The main character was a racist but the overall message was anti-racist, with his black neighbour always saving the day. It couldn't be made these days because liberal fascists are too thick to understand it.

Here's the Wikipedia (spit!) link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_Death_Us_Do_Part

AJ

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
awnlee_jawking

@Ernest Bywater

Ernest, I think you misunderstood.

@madnige

the till version to have been both correct and in common usage in British English


madnige is well aware till doesn't have a preceding apostrophe.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee_jawking

madnige is well aware till doesn't have a preceding apostrophe.

Madnige, please forgive me for mentioning such minutiae here. It's what I do. :-)

He certainly was aware of that, but I had to interrupt my reading of his post, looking for a closing apostrophe at the end of the title, just to work out what he meant.
If I was writing that I hope I would have written the title in italics rather than enclosing it in apostrophes. Another option would have been to place the apostrophes outside the link to an external article.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Wheezer

@Crumbly Writer

It's a separate (alternate) definition of till, as is it's use as a synonym for 'cash collection' or daily sales total.

Yep. I completely forgot about that. There's an expression, "dipping into the till," referring to stealing money from a cash box or cash register.

Replies:   awnlee jawking  Joe Long
awnlee jawking

@Wheezer

Nowadays Till is abbreviated to Point Of Sale Terminal ;)

AJ

Joe Long

@Wheezer

There's an expression, "dipping into the till,"


"Caught with his hand in the till"

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I'd place a higher priority on encouraging a greater diversity of forum posters, but as your own personal standard I don't see a problem.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

I'd place a higher priority on encouraging a greater diversity of forum posters

I trust madnige understands I was trying very hard to avoid anything discouraging by beginning my post with:

Madnige, please forgive me for mentioning such minutiae here.

I suppose my reason for mentioning it was as an example of the kind of constant vigilance we should be trying to employ.
What he wrote was the absolutely correct and routine thing to do, but the context on this occasion, a discussion about apostrophes, made the routine thing a bit confusing.

robberhands

@Ross at Play

I suppose my reason for mentioning it was as an example of the kind of constant vigilance we should be trying to employ.

Really? I thought you were simply enjoying yourself, indulging in one of your favorite past time activities. I wouldn't want that as a guideline.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@robberhands

Really? I thought you were simply enjoying yourself, indulging in one of your favorite past time activities.

I would admit that pointing out tiny mistakes others have made is one of my favourite pastimes, but there are numerous examples here I allow through to the keeper.

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I suppose my reason for mentioning it was as an example of the kind of constant vigilance we should be trying to employ.


I usually give a free pass to forum posters and I believe they, in turn, let my own minor mistakes through unchallenged.

To outsiders, the forum comes across as dominated by a cliquey handful of posters. Suggesting elements of a forum style guide, even 'at play', isn't going to counter that impression.

Still, we've done the titular topic to death and we're just waiting for the puns to start, so hopefully outsiders will have stopped reading by now ;)

AJ

Replies:   Joe Long  Ross at Play
Joe Long

@awnlee jawking

Still, we've done the titular topic to death and we're just waiting for the puns to start, so hopefully outsiders will have stopped reading by now ;)


Kate Upton has a pair of titular topics to share.

Capt. Zapp

@awnlee jawking

I watched it sometimes! The main character was a racist but the overall message was anti-racist, with his black neighbour always saving the day. It couldn't be made these days because liberal fascists are too thick to understand it.


Wasn't that the show that spawned 'All in the Family' as the U.S. version?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

I usually give a free pass to forum posters and I believe they, in turn, let my own minor mistakes through unchallenged.

I didn't say anything until it had been mentioned twice.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering how our German friend will cope with an expression like "through to the keeper". It probably means close enough to the same thing in football as in cricket for him to get the drift.

But neither of us would want to start talking about football with a German!
The last time the Aussies played them their 2010 World Cup campaign was effectively dead by the half-hour mark of their first match. The final score was 0-4.
But Poms don't like talking about football at all, do they? At least not since that one moment in the sun, sort of, if not for those clouds of controversy, and then only as long as a typical English summer.

Were you alive the last time English football had anything to celebrate?

If you're interested, I have some statistics of the results of England v Germany matches since then?

Replies:   robberhands
awnlee jawking

@Capt. Zapp

Wasn't that the show that spawned 'All in the Family' as the U.S. version?


I vaguely remember the name so quite likely.

I understand the racism was somewhat defanged for the US market.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Capt Zapp
Wasn't that the show that spawned 'All in the Family' as the U.S. version?

@Awnlee
I vaguely remember the name so quite likely.
I understand the racism was somewhat defanged for the US market.

That was so, but the show "broke the mould" of every family in American sitcoms being perfect.
It made a whole range of prejudices legitimate targets for comedy, and is one of the most highly regarded programs of all time for that reason.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
robberhands

@Ross at Play

Meanwhile, I'm wondering how our German friend will cope with an expression like "through to the keeper". It probably means close enough to the same thing in football as in cricket for him to get the drift.

At least you call it football and nothing as deranged as 'soccer'.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@robberhands

At least you call it football and nothing as deranged as 'soccer'.

Actually, I choose my audience's preference for that one, not my own. If talking to Australians or Americans I call the game 'soccer'.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

If talking to Australians or Americans I call the game 'soccer'.

You two faced traitor!

Ross at Play

@robberhands

You two faced traitor!

A two-faced toady, please.

awnlee jawking

@robberhands

You two faced traitor!


Do I detect a hint of jealousy because the USA are ranked No 1 in the world ahead of Germany, in the version played by the more intelligent half of the world's population? ;)

AJ

robberhands

@awnlee jawking

Do I detect a hint of jealousy because the USA are ranked No 1 in the world ahead of Germany, in the version played by the more intelligent half of the world's population? ;)

Hardly, I had no idea who ranked where on such a list, but I googled it to cure my ignorance. The USA male national footbal team is ranked on place 26, and Germany on 2. Maybe you should define 'the more intelligent half of the world's population' more to your liking.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@robberhands

Maybe you should define 'the more intelligent half of the world's population' more to your liking.


The half that, on a like-for-like basis, gets the better exam results and higher earnings, until a large proportion of their number stops to have babies. ;)

AJ

Replies:   robberhands
Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

Do I detect a hint of jealousy because the USA are ranked No 1 in the world ahead of Germany, in the version played by the more intelligent half of the world's population? ;)

Good one! You had me shaking my head in disbelief after I read that the first time. LOL.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Ross at Play


It made a whole range of prejudices legitimate targets for comedy, and is one of the most highly regarded programs of all time for that reason.


For that reason, folks on the liberal side of U.S. politics and culture had no problem with it. The line of comedy the show opened leads eventually to Stephen Colbert and others, who've made mocking extremist*—kindly note the adjective—conservative positions into an art form.

bb

*There are credible conservative theorists, at least one or two in the U.S. still alive, but none who have any influence in the current U.S. administration. That's what gives Colbert and other comedians such a rich vein to mine. They wouldn't have nearly as much fun with George Will or someone like him as they do with the Orange One and his ilk.

Replies:   Ross at Play  Joe Long
robberhands

@awnlee jawking

The half that, on a like-for-like basis, gets the better exam results and higher earnings, until a large proportion of their number stops to have babies. ;)

If that would be true for the world it would be a much better place than it is.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ross at Play

@Bondi Beach

For that reason, folks on the liberal side of politics and culture had no problem with it.

You could have made the argument that 'most highly regarded TV programs' automatically implies a strong liberal cultural bias.
If you had I would have answered, "Whoops! You've got me with that one." :-)

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Joe Long

@Bondi Beach

Archie Bunker was invented to be scorned but he was endearing.

The point the OP was trying to make is that in today's culture the SJW's won't allow characters to be racist, even if the story is anti-racist and the character is to be mocked.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Bondi Beach

@Ross at Play

You could have made the argument that 'most highly regarded TV programs' automatically implies a strong liberal cultural bias.
If you had I would have answered, "Whoops! You've got me with that one." :-)


I had in mind a comment earlier in the thread that "liberals" would block any new attempt at such a show. On the contrary, of course, since the show's popularity demonstrates most people got the joke.

No comment on your assertion that popular shows are mostly popular because liberals like them. It's hard to argue "24" had a liberal bias. Indeed, it thrived on the conspiracy theories popular on the right, although the bad guys weren't weenie liberals.

They were corrupt in other ways, but always fell to truth, justice, and the American Way, in the person of Kiefer Sutherland. Who, in the perfect turnaround, now plays a weenie liberal standing up for the same things in "Designated Survivor." Jack Bauer in a cardigan? Who'da thunk?

bb

Replies:   Joe Long  Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Joe Long

Archie Bunker was invented to be scorned but he was endearing.
The point the OP was trying to make is that in today's culture the SJW's won't allow characters to be racist, even if the story is anti-racist and the character is to be mocked.

1. Who are SJWs?
2. You're right. 'Twas such a brief moment between racists being condoned, and now they must be hated, when they could simply be mocked for being wrong-headed.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Joe Long
Joe Long

@Bondi Beach

In real life, I have an impression of Kiefer Sutherland as somewhat conservative, perhaps centrist, while his dad is a full blown loony lefty.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Ross at Play

@Bondi Beach

since the show's popularity demonstrates most people got the joke.

I was not equating 'popularity' with 'most highly regarded'.
I was thinking of 'most highly regarded' as the lists you'll get if you enter "Best TV of all time" into an internet search, i.e. lists devised by the liberal-biased critics.

Bondi Beach

@Joe Long

his dad is a full blown loony lefty.


Who had onscreen almost-sex with Julie Christie, don't forget. That counts for something, in my book. (Which is full of pretend things, many of which I write about.)

bb

Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

Who are SJWs?


SJW=Social Justice Warrior

It generally refers to activists promoting "social justice" on the basis of identity group politics.

Joe Long

@Ross at Play

Who are SJWs?


I need to remind myself that my fellow Americans are a minority here and I can't assume that you all understand some of our terms.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Joe Long

I need to remind myself that my fellow Americans are a minority here and I can't assume that you all understand some of our terms.

I should have guessed the 'W' stood for 'warrior'. I mean, what other term would Americans think of to describe someone who wants peace and justice.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Ross at Play


I mean, what other term would Americans think of to describe someone who wants peace and justice.


They don't want peace. Most of them actively support violent protest. The rest refuse to condemn violent protest in favor of causes they support.

awnlee jawking

@robberhands

It's certainly true in the UK. There's still a significant earnings gap between men and women, but women are actually paid more until they reach their mid thirties then men overtake them and race ahead.

AJ

richardshagrin

A Till a the hun.

StarFleet Carl

@Ross at Play

someone who wants peace and justice


That's certainly NOT an SJW.

And keep in mind that for them, peace means that it's okay for them to beat YOU with a stick until you capitulate to their demands, but you're not allowed to defend yourself.

And justice means that you do what they say, because in their minds, they're morally superior to you, so you must bow down to them as if you were a subject and not a citizen.

Keep in mind that the Community Organizer in Chief even said that many of us conservatives seem to cling to our religion or our guns without actually understanding the history of our country AND the actual population in the Midwest. He's also the one who said that you bring a gun to a knife fight, attempting to escalate things. And you wonder why we're concerned about what we view as the American way of life being under assault?

Of course, you'll also note that in Phoenix there was no mass violence, only a few Trump supporters beaten up for being Trump supporters. Arizona is an open carry state. No one tries anything like that here, either. Oklahoma may not be an open carry state ... yet ... but we all DO carry. Damn straight we cling to our guns AND our religion. The first protects the second - and from a legal perspective, the second amendment protects the first.

Joe Long

For the edification of the non-Americans here, anytime "Justice" is used is by people advocating equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity.

They also strongly believe that their opinion is the only truth and therefor take a dim view of freedom of speech.

Ross at Play

I appear to have triggered something I have absolutely no interest in discussing. Bye.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

I have absolutely no interest in discussing.


Then why comment on it in the first place?

Replies:   Ross at Play
Geek of Ages

🤔

Ross at Play

@Dominions Son

Then why comment on it in the first place?

I had never heard of the term SJW, so I asked.
When told, I noted the irony of someone wanting 'social justice' being called a 'warrior'.
I did not anticipate the flood of loathing that would trigger.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

When told, I noted the irony of someone wanting 'social justice'


Why would that be ironic when they are perfectly willing to use violence to get what they want?

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Dominions Son

Why would that be ironic when they are perfectly willing to use violence to get what they want?

That is why I said, "I appear to have triggered something I have absolutely no interest in discussing."
Bye.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

And again, why would you make the comment about it being ironic if you aren't willing to discuss it?

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Dominions Son

And again, why would you make the comment about it being ironic if you aren't willing to discuss it?

Because I have no intention of being dragged into any more fights here about anything not directly related to writing.
As soon as I saw the hostility that term triggered, I was out of there.

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