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Disturbing Font info. (for publishers)

Crumbly Writer

Just read a disturbing blog post (crimefictioncollective: WTF? Why That Font?) that warns authors against publishing using 'free' system fonts. If you publish stories using the system fonts from M$, Linux, Word or OpenOffice (or even 'free fonts' sites which collect processing fees), you could be liable to copyright infractions. (Many 'free fonts' require processing and shipping charges to earn their income.)

Ernest and Switch, you're probably safe since we discussed the 'most common fonts for ebooks', but Ernest, I'm not sure whether Palatino Linotype is 'free' or not.

I think I'm safe since my books are mostly published with Garamond (listed as one of the six fonts available for publishing ePubs), but I'll have to check to see whether that's free or not for publishing.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

CW,

The reason I use the old font package I do is because when I got it I was given the right to use it for whatever publishing I wanted, so I'm not in any copyright violation.

In many cases buying the package gives you the right to publish with it.

Crumbly Writer

I've been purchasing fonts used in my stories (for the ones I can find an email for, since website links are almost universally worthless), when I discovered one of mine is, in fact, owned by M$ (gabriola). There is NO WAY a self-published author can afford any fee M$ would insist on, so I'll need to search for a similar font. I also need to determine who owns the core groups of epub fonts (those accepted by ALL ebook devices). I'd assumed the epub standards group used those fonts because they're freely available, but I have no clue whether it's true or not (at the moment).

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Smart idea to research the ownership and the license terms, because some fonts are sold cheap for personal non-commercial use only, and some are given away free for non-commercial use only, while some are sold for commercial use. However, the ones Microsoft includes in MS Office should be available for commercial use with the fee as being part of the MSO purchase price simply because their main target for MSO is companies wanting it for preparing commercial documents, thus all in it should be available for commercial use. But check the terms of use, because the student packages aren't approved for commercial use in any manner.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Finally checked. The '7 commonly included' fonts on all the ereaders are, as much as I've determined, expensive fonts.

The one I've been using most, Monotype's Garamond, costs only $321. I don't mind paying $5 to $79 for fonts I like, but $321 will wipe out what little profits I generate. I can find cheaper fonts, but none of them are as universally accepted.

Crumbly Writer

OK, from the lack of response, I'm assuming I was the lone idiot assuming that M$ wouldn't charge for their services. I was sorta hoping that others would be equally outraged so a group of us could form a 'publishing consortium' to pool our resources for things like fonts, image libraries, ISBNs, etc. (I still have a large collection of unused ISBNs sitting around, waiting for me to get to them).

Since I seem to be the only one caught unprepared, I'll shut up and pay my bar tab quietly.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

CW,

I'm sure MS would charge you if they felt they could get away with it. They have an issue though, the commercial packages of MS Office are intended for commercial use and the courts will uphold that they can't charge you again for what's in what you've already paid for in buying the commercial copy of MSO. However, if you're using the trial version you get for free on a new PC or are using an Education package version you will find the EULA has a bit about not being able to use anything produced by the package for any commercial use at all. Thus, a kid with an education copy who uses it to prepare a sign advertising they're having a garage sale can be sued for that because it's a commercial usage.

Now, as to fonts. I bought a license to use Palatino Linotype several years ago, and that gave me the right to use the fonts for commercial activities. It also enables me to embed the fonts into the e-pubs I make so they display properly in any reader unless it's one of the few that doesn't support embedded fonts. It's because I have a legal license I stay with the old font package.

In my stories I use four levels of header and they differentiate due to colour, font size, being in italics and being in bold. Within the text I use normal, bold, italics, and colour as well as indentation to signify certain things. I use the same sets of fonts and options in all my stories. This gives the readers a sense of uniformity in my books and they know what i write will always present the same for them.

On the covers I sometimes use a different font, but generally stay with just the same sets in larger point sizes. All the images are either public domain or allowed usage under some version of copyright allowing me to use them in cover art, in only a few cases have I used images of my own. In a couple I approached the copyright holder and got their permission to use it. Managed to do well so far.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

They have an issue though, the commercial packages of MS Office are intended for commercial use


Yeah, I rather doubt that Crumbly has one of the commercial versions. the Home & Office version is $220 and the full professional version is $400.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

I'm assuming I was the lone idiot assuming that M$ wouldn't charge for their services.


I work in IT, I have bought the full pro-version of Office for my home computer before. I am quite familiar with what they like to charge for the commercial versions of their products.

The price is part of why I switched to Open Office.

Joe_Bondi_Beach

How likely is it that the font owner is going to (a) know you used the font or (b) care that you did? We aren't talking NYT bestsellers here- although I'll be the first to cheer if anyone reaches that level.

bb

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

How likely is it that the font owner is going to (a) know you used the font or (b) care that you did?


risk is measured as cost * probability. In this case, the probability may (or may not) be low, but the cost is very high.

The cost just to defend against the lawsuit could bankrupt someone and that's before you even start talking about damages.

Crumbly Writer

Actually, the cost for the fonts isn't that much if I amortize it (for myself, not legally) across ALL of my books (which I never did before). I'm assuming I can get away with 2, maybe 3 basic fonts, though I'd previously used 'print' and 'ebook' fonts, which I'll probably quit doing.

However, I can't believe there aren't some resourceful Indie font producers who produce a decent header font for a fraction of the cost. It'll take time to find one, though, especially since each font designer, and there are thousands of them, have their own fee structure which don't always make much sense, so trying to license fonts is often an awkward dance routine.

But, two basic fonts isn't too restrictive, given the number of books I produce. I was just caught with my pants down, which is Always a bit of a shock! :(

Joe_Bondi_Beach

@Crumbly Writer

But, two basic fonts isn't too restrictive, given the number of books I produce. I was just caught with my pants down, which is Always a bit of a shock! :(


TMI border fast approaching ...

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


However, I can't believe there aren't some resourceful Indie font producers who produce a decent header font for a fraction of the cost.


Well, I don't know what you would consider a decent header font, but check out: https://www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/

or

https://fontlibrary.org/

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

TMI border fast approaching ...

ON SOL, I'd thought that was a foreign concept (as we specialize in all the topics no one else wants to discuss. On SOL, TMI is defined as stories which include daily (for the character) recitations of the 3 'S's (shit, shave and shower). I've only encountered one story that fit that category, but it was agonizing reading after the first three chapters! Unfortunately, it was well-written enough most of us put up it!!!

Joe_Bondi_Beach

@Crumbly Writer

Oops. Canceled my post. There is in fact an overall restriction on using the software we have for commercial purposes. So, no using Word.

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Thanks, DS. That's a decent 'free-font' source that I was unfamiliar with (I'd visited FontLibrary, but hadn't dug into it much yet). I've used other font libraries (dafont, myfont, etc.) but hadn't gotten into the free-font universe yet.

I suspect I'll purchase the standards, simply because I'm worried about ePub support (embedded fonts are catching on, but I'm not sure how much of an issue it still is). Still, these are decent alternatives.

I'll have to research the 'acceptance' rate on embedded fonts. I've been avoiding it, but if it works to a wide degree, I just might use these fonts instead of the M$ ones.

By the way, what's the consensus on these? Are any published authors using these, or are they being cautious and purchasing the full priced 'stock' fonts?

Update: Checked out the TheLeagueofMoveableType. I'm confused, though. Does the site really only have 7 fonts, total, or is the catalogue and search functions only open to paying members? The only fonts they show aren't well kerned and create fairly static type (i.e. the letters don't really fit together well).

I'll keep looking, though. Again, thanks for the lead.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

The Home and Office version is a commercial version while the Professional version is dearer due to have other capabilities in it.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

One good thing about using a word processor is that it's real easy to change the font type for the whole document simply by selecting All and clicking on a new font type and it all changes. The various bold and italics bits will be in bold and italics, but in the new font.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

By the way, what's the consensus on these? Are any published authors using these, or are they being cautious and purchasing the full priced 'stock' fonts?


I don't know, I'm not a published author.

I'm confused, though. Does the site really only have 7 fonts, total, or is the catalogue and search functions only open to paying members?


I don't know. I just Googled for open source fonts and those were the two most promising results.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


The Home and Office version is a commercial version


I am aware of that. It's still significantly more expensive than the straight home version (unless you are stupid enough to sign up for the subscription version).

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

According to wikipedia URW Palladio L is an Open Source version of Palatino so I'll check it out and may switch over for safety sake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatino#Free_and_Open_Source_versions_and_derivatives

Crumbly Writer

It took a while to read through the OFL (Open Font License), it wasn't real clear. I finally figured out why. The sites Dominions Son referenced is a 'open, free-use site' for font developers. There's no details on font usage. Font developers are free to borrow aspects of the listed fonts in developing their own, after which they can sell it for whatever they want. But end users and commercial enterprises have to find, contact and purchase the fonts directly from them.

It was a good idea, DS, but I guess I'll go back to checking my other independent font developer sites.

Ernest, I'm leery of AZFonts, as they don't list terms of use (it's up to each font developer to include that info, but not all do). The font you specified, Palladio L, has problems with 'clumping' at smaller sizes. While it reads fine at font 14, at size 12 is has heavy black globs in the text, making it irregular.

AZFonts' Calibri Regular seems to display well, so it makes sense to examine the fonts one by one at different sizes.

Yoza! I tried the "100 Most Popular fonts", which took me to Adobe's Calibri ($149 for 6 fonts). However, each Adobe ebook license only covers a single use (i.e. a single book). In other words, the Calibri font will cost 1,490 for my existing books, and $149 for each subsequent use.

I guess I'll be searching Indie publishing sites for a few weeks.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Yeah, I just finished trying a book converted to the Palladio and found it didn't have enough white space for me due to the clumping you mention at 10 point.

Crumbly Writer

I've also discovered that I've been using more fonts than I was aware of. I've been slipping them in at a relatively random basis. I'll have to go in and examine each book (checking my ePub CSS instead of examining the source documents).

This might take a while!

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

I just found this website by the designer of the Palatino, it worth checking the many fonts he has as the prices are very reasonable, some from just $24.00

https://www.myfonts.com/person/Hermann_Zapf/

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

I just found this website by the designer of the Palatino, it worth checking the many fonts he has as the prices are very reasonable, some from just $24.00

Sorry, Ernest. That font cost $90 for an ebook license, which only applies to each ISBN (i.e. separate copy for each book, for each outlet (Amazon, lulu, etc.), and there are 12 different fonts in the one family. That means, for use in a single book, it could potentially cost you $1080 USD, a fairly standard price for most of the big font designer alternatives.

I just went thru the 10 best Garamond alternatives, with wide variations in looks, with an average price of $1,250.

You also have to be cautious, as many sites don't list ebook licenses, meaning you've got to contact the developers personally (via email) and ask the price they wish to charge.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

That font cost $90 for an ebook license


Sorry, Mate, that must be deeper into the site than the page I was looking at. Kind of makes me glad I bought this way back when.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Whenever you see a font license, the assumption is it's for 'display only', and it's either for single individual use or they'll sell it for a set number of users.

The better sites list the different licenses, though the majority of sites require you to write the designer and ask them what they feel like charging you.

The most expensive licenses are app (the ability to include the font on millions of mobile apps) and ebook (which only allows you to use it for a single version of a book).

I've been learning a lot doing this research. I'll keep searching, but it'll be on a font-by-font basis, which takes a LOT of time!

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

Here's a good description of the license type we're talking about: Embedded fonts. If the license doesn't say "Embedded, App or eBook, then it's only a desktop font and you can't include it in an ebook. Even fonts that are listed as "100% Free" don't cover this usage.

Update: Print books are not included in the 'embedded' or 'ebook' license (it's a technological thing). Any use which includes 'commercial' allows for print usage.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

If the license doesn't say "Embedded, App or eBook, then it's only a desktop font and you can't include it in an ebook. Even fonts that are listed as "100% Free" don't cover this usage.


I wonder if this applies to font purchases made prior to them applying such definitions and limitations. When I made my purchase, all those many years ago, the choices were personal use or commercial use of any sort and I chose commercial - but it seems things have changed in the last almost 20 years.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

I wonder if this applies to font purchases made prior to them applying such definitions and limitations. When I made my purchase, all those many years ago, the choices were personal use or commercial use of any sort and I chose commercial - but it seems things have changed in the last almost 20 years.

The key is it's being "embedded". Your font will display fine in print, but supposedly, it won't support including the font in an ebook (it won't add the font correctly). I'll have to test that, to be sure, as you seem to be doing that now.

Beyond that, the only real limits are desktop (private or commercial) and web. Any graphic or use in images is included under general desktop usage.

I finally went back to defont.com and began searching on a font by font basis. I've found a couple decent header fonts. One designer offers "perpetual licenses" for around $100 (depending on complexity and number of fonts per family). That's a decent rate. However, I haven't found many good body test/normal fonts. Defonts is mostly a 'Fancy, Display' font source. I might have to search a few more sites to find decent body text fonts. The difference in kerning and letter paring is really apparent in text blocks of different (small) sizes.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

I've got a feeling I'm safe because what i paid for was the use of the font in any situation, personal or commercial. Also, back then you could embed a font in a Word document or . If it went to court it'd come down to using the font in accordance with the rights restrictions placed on it at the time of purchase, and the only one was I couldn't sell it to another person. The fact they're doing different rights now can't affect what I bought back then.

I didn't embed the font in all my e-books, but have started to do so due to people complaining about how some of them read in their system fonts. I may just stop embedding them and it becomes a null issue for me.

Although, it'd be a good idea to check the rights of anything you do use. I found some Creative Commons Copyright licenses are good for any usage except front covers and back covers - thus they're eliminated as cover art. That's a option in the CCC license.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

It's strange that they'd purposely limit their inclusion in graphics, as normally you have 'display' fonts and 'body' fonts. I'm guessing these were body fonts you were looking at, and they simply included the restriction to accentuate the difference. Or maybe it's just a control thing.

Meanwhile, my attempt to find alternate fonts has hit another reef. I've found several header fonts, but I'm having trouble with body fonts (fonts used for the body of the text). The problem is: I haven't found a single font in defont.com which supports smart quotes, ellipses, em or en-dashes. Several have accent marks, but that's about it. Guess I'll have to look elsewhere.

Replies:   Joe_Bondi_Beach
Joe_Bondi_Beach

@Crumbly Writer

Adobe sells through Fontspring their Adobe Garamond Pro, a six-font set, for $169. The fonts are $35 each if purchased individually. The set comes with glyphs, including smart quotes, and permits up to five installations.

The desktop license includes an eBook license that permits embedding. I don't see any restrictions on cover use, but it does *not* appear to include Web use, although I'm not sure of that.

http://www.fontspring.com/fonts/adobe/adobe-garamond-pro

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

Thanks, Joe. I'd visited Fontspring, as well as searched for all the Garamond alternatives, but hadn't encountered this one. Duh!

Not only is the ebook license included in the desktop (some ebook fonts require you to purchase a separate desktop license in order to use it on your computer), the license is good for ALL versions/copies of book (i.e. Amazon, SW, Lulu, etc.).

However, as usual, I'm confused by the license usage text:

Ebooks: Embed fonts in Ebooks. One license cover unlimited copies, versions and formats.


I'm assuming that means I've got to purchase a separate license for each book? At $169, that means I'm immediately out $1,690 bucks! If I drop the two semibold fonts, that's only $1,400 (not much of a savings). I'm also unclear if the "5 installations" refers to desktop users, or 5 separate ebooks. Guess I'll have to ask Adobe, though I'm pretty sure I know what they'll say (each book requires a separate license).

In general, use on covers is included under the desktop use.

I've got a couple alternate header fonts with perpetual licenses (i.e. I can use them for as many books as I want) for around $150 each (all from a single designer), so between the two, I can get by. Still, that's a large chunk of cash!

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

However, as usual, I'm confused by the license usage text:


Why not contact Adobe and ask for clarification? Worst case, you are out nothing more than the time it takes to write an email.

Joe_Bondi_Beach

@Crumbly Writer

I read "five installations" to mean five devices. I also read "unlimited" to mean you can use the font to write your next 300 novels (and more!) without additional cost-not to mention editions in every medium known and to be known to Man.

That's my interpretation, but as DS says, there's no harm in asking Adobe directly. FWIW, I cruised a couple of discussion groups before purchasing to find an answer, but didn't find anything really on point.

Replies:   sejintenej
Crumbly Writer

Uh ... never mind, everyone.

I was getting confused by convoluted licensing which didn't include what wasn't covered, thinking that if I had a font in my original Word document, that it needed a license. I understand font embedding, and I don't use it because it's not widely supported, but I saw the "ebook licensing" tied to "embedding" and thought they were using it as a legal term.

What I forgot is that ebooks, those generated by smashwords, lulu, Amazon and D2D, strip ALL font information from the document. In short, NONE of my 10 books contains a single font!

I was having trouble figuring out how Independent publishing could be free, where you could do your own formatting, design, photography, editing, proofing and marketing, but we'd all get stuck with a $30,000 fine for use of a single font. That's why I was getting to crazy, because it seemed ... outrageous!

So, let's keep this whole Forum thread between us and we'll all pretend it never occurred, huh? ::(

Replies:   Joe_Bondi_Beach
Joe_Bondi_Beach

@Crumbly Writer

What I forgot is that ebooks, those generated by smashwords, lulu, Amazon and D2D, strip ALL font information from the document. In short, NONE of my 10 books contains a single font!


Whoa, Nellie!*

Lulu says you must own or have permission for everything you include in your work. I'm pretty confident the others have similar requirements. According to my local [guard]house lawyer, this means using your tools according to license, meaning fonts, word-processing, the whole thing.

So unless your base materials are used according to license, you're still vulnerable, right?

Actually, I have no idea.

*The Whoa Nellie Deli is a diner at the junction of SR 120 and US 395 in California, known far and wide among outdoorspeople for its outstanding food-not your normal diner fare. This according to my younger daughter, who just ate there.

Crumbly Writer

That's what was confusing me, since I see the included fonts in my source files (M$ WORD). But most ebooks strip out all the font information. You can embed fonts, but as far as I know, that's mainly an ePub option.

Technically, you purchase a 'general' license for use on your own computer (for most of us, that's included in the OS).

Uses of fonts on covers (or as 'graphical elements) is considered part of the 'general use' license, which means you purchase the cheapest license and can use it for all the books in a series.

The only time you need to purchase the prohibitively expensive ebook license is if you embed the font in your ebook, so the actual font is displayed rather than what the ereader supports or the user chooses.

I considered embedding a separate font for my chapter quotations, just so I could use a script font so they would remain distinct from the story font. However, I decided against that idea.

If you create a print book, then yes, you still need the license, but it's only a 'general use' license and it's good for however many books you use it on.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

I just came across this:

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=OFL-FAQ_web

free use and embedding allowed for any reason. Now to see what's available.

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?item_id=OFL_fonts

got to check them out.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  ElDani
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Actually, Ernest, Dominions Son suggested the League of Moveable Type, which emphasizes the OFL (Open Font license), but after reading it, I concluded that it was open for other font designers, but since they didn't stipulate whether others could use the fonts, I concluded it was a 'borrow and make something better' movement (i.e. it was free to develop, not to use).

These new links imply the OFL movement does allow free usage of fonts by designers and authors. For me, though, the lack of glyphs (only one had them) for the support of publishing characters (smart quotes, em-dashes and ellipsis) make them unusable. But it makes sense to keep reviewing these files, to see what comes up. I regularly check font designer websites to see what they have available.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

I checked out the SIL fonts, lucky for me I can add them to my Linux repository check system and get them that way with ease. They seem capable of doing all I do with accents, graves, curly quotes, etc but not sure about changing. One is only a touch more cramped than Palatino while another is a little more spaced, but there's a good range of options there. Some of them even include foreign language, with many of them being Asian languages.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Just found this place as well, looks good:

http://arkandis.tuxfamily.org/index.html

Quote from the home page:

Welcome to the Arkandis Digital Foundry -ADF- homepage. This site has been created in order to offer a large collection of high quality fonts for publication and open source programs.

This collection came from my work, started a few years ago, now redeveloped for Scribus use, and has three purposes. The first is provide fonts to allow for artistic creativity in publications for those who cannot afford the cost of commercial font families. The second is to protect the works of professional font foundries and designers from the illegal use of their fonts in publications or for commercial use by providing these free alternatives. The last is that making fonts is a great pleasure.

Remember that Arkandis Digital Foundry offers only alternative font typefaces or derivative works that have the "look" of commercial fonts. If you need or want a specific commercial font, buy it. Thank you.

HARENDAL.H

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

I found a bunch more than seem to be free and safe to use, but didn't check further because I don't write in languages like Urdu, Tamil, Thai, and Arabic. So I figured I'd skip on by.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

They seem capable of doing all I do with accents, graves, curly quotes, etc but not sure about changing.

Yeah, that was the first thing I did, check to see which acknowledged adding glyphs (I only counted one, though others might have added them without commenting on it).

The one I tried was added to Windows with no problem, though it was still a little rudimentary (the letters were a little too far spaced and didn't fit as much as I like).

You may like this source I discovered while looking for embeddable fonts. He had the best prices, best fonts, decent graphic fonts and the best terms. His site is

sejintenej

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

Careful here. If your computer goes down and you have to reload from backup discs (for example) that can be claimed to be a second installation.

Looking at later comments I am worried; my laptop has all sorts of "strange" (to you) character keys such as é^`¤èçà~^ùµ° as part of MS Word. Looks like I can't publish even ordinary script. ouch! (signed Confused)

Ernest Bywater

@sejintenej

all sorts of "strange" (to you) character keys such as é^`¤èçà~^ùµ° as part of MS Word.


Ooh, you may have a copy of the Multiple Sclerosis Word not Microsoft Word!

Multiple sclerosis (MS), also known as disseminated sclerosis or encephalomyelitis disseminata, is a demyelinating disease in which the insulating covers of nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord are damaged. This damage disrupts the ability of parts of the nervous system to communicate, resulting in a wide range of signs and symptoms, including physical, mental, and sometimes psychiatric problems.

Replies:   sejintenej
ElDani

@Ernest Bywater

free use and embedding allowed for any reason. Now to see what's available.


The Open Font License, originally designed by SIL International (sometimes referred to the Summer Institute of Linguistics) is very wide-spread and most fonts published under that license aren't even mentioned at the pages you linked to.

There do exist font databases which can be searched by license or the implied permissions:

The Open Font Library has already been linked by Dominions Son earlier, where you can choose to filter fonts by clicking "OFL (SIL Open Font License" in the right side-menu, which generates a list of 408 fonts in total.

You can do something similar on Font Squirrel. While it's not possible to display fonts by license, you can choose to filter the results by the permissions the font licenses grant. Click on "Licenses -> Ebook" in the right side-menu and the only fonts displayed will be those, which may be embedded. Be aware though, that the list of results is not perfect and each font's license should always be checked. A few fonts are listed despite there not being a license mentioned at all.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@ElDani

that license aren't even mentioned at the pages you linked to.


The first SIL link is their FAQ about fonts and the second is the list of SIL OFL License fonts - never said it was all they did, just showed the links I found via a search on Free Font licenses. In another post I link to another organisation - ADF.

Crumbly Writer

@sejintenej

Joe, it's pretty well established, across ALL computer uses, that reinstalling is not a second installation. In fact, if you buy a new computer, and transfer over all your software, that is also not considered a 'second installation'. However, if you load it on your wife's laptop, that would. The same is true if you install it on both your desktop (remember those) and laptop, though that depends on the individual license by the company.

The "strange keys" are there so the company can sell to more than a single language, and also allows you to use terms originating from that language. You can print with those, assuming they're part of the same font you've licensed. A few of those "strange keys" are part of the fonts' glyph, which as I said earlier, includes the "publishing marks" like ellipses, en an em-dashes, and smart quotes. Not all fonts contain those.

What you should be careful of, is having a font on your computer does not allow you to publish with it! It only entitles you to a 'display license', which means you can use it on YOUR COMPUTER ONLY, or create documents you use for your business ONLY. To publish, you need a separate license. But as this lengthy discussion shows, you don't need an "Ebook" license.

sejintenej
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


sejintenej


Ouch; I was looking for your message link to congratulate you on your "Editor" reply but my laughter upset my Free Cuba!!!!! (aka Cuba Libre).

No, I created the characters by simply pressing the right keys on my laptop (and NOT the ALT plus a number such as ALT155 or ALT134 which I do sometimes use) which is running original pukka real Yankee Microsoft Word. (I assume you have a normal QSDFG keyboard!)

Just because you are missing a vital bit ....(does you wife realise? ;-) )

richardshagrin

@sejintenej

What's a QSDFG keyboard? I have and have almost always seen a qwerty top line of letters. The second line, from the left to right is asdfg. Inquiring minds want to know if there is something wrong with my keyboard?

Replies:   Dominion's Son
Dominion's Son

@richardshagrin

What's a QSDFG keyboard?


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=keyboqrd

senjintenej must be French.

Apparently they have different keyboards in France. Technically it would be an AZERTY keyboard, QSDFG would be the middle row.

Replies:   sejintenej
Crumbly Writer

@sejintenej

Sejintenej, those would be part of the font's glyphs. Most of the fonts on the 'free' font sites doesn't have such niceties, although they have several accent marks for different (European) languages. The ALT or the '&347;' marks are html commands, which don't utilize font information.

sejintenej

@Dominion's Son

Absolutely - give him the ¥60.000 prize ..

But French? Like many Americans (I assume most of you are) I'm a mix with my real name coming from Viking via Normandie. The nom de plume (OK, that really is French thanks to Yahoo) is the Norwegian agglomeration (sorry - I don't know a two syllable eqivalent) of a Swedish hit song title.
Interestingly that link froze my computer

Ernest Bywater

@sejintenej

Like many Americans (I assume most of you are)


Never call an Aussie an American, them's fightin' words, and a duel will be held at dawn with matching Roman Candles at twenty paces.

Replies:   richardshagrin
Dominions Son

@sejintenej

I simply Googled "QSDFG keyboard". Since the link I found on Urban dictionary indicates that it is specifically a French thing, I concluded you must be in France.

richardshagrin
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

Their neighbors are New Zealand (when combined Anzac was used, but neither much liked the term) and Antarctica. I don't think the penguins care. The northern, junglely parts are somewhat close to New Guiney (the spelling looks wrong but spell check likes it). Basically Australia is a long way from anywhere, which is why the British Empire exiled its criminals there, so they couldn't come back easily.

The Europeans and their descendants from the Americas took over Hawaii, which suffers or enjoys the same distance from anybody else situation by coming to do good and did well. In either case the natives, aborigines, or people called Islanders were not consulted or thrilled about the situation, but were massively outgunned.

Australia suffered in WW2 by an infestation of American Soldiers, while their own were out fighting in the more remote sections of the then British Empire. Egypt and North Africa, among other sites. Slightly better than Turkey in WW1 but not much.

Another case of two nations separated by what may have been at one time a single language. The language has been married a long time and isn't single these days. Americans think Canadians have an accent, Eh? The ones that claim English. The ones that think they speak French don't want to have anything to do with English. Other alleged French speakers, the snobby ones from Paris and environs think only they speak French. Other French influenced languages are merely Creole. Formerly French Louisianans claim it as a separate language and cuisine. Louisiana actually was Spanish until the brother of Napoleon he put on the Spanish throne ceded it to France, who promptly sold it to President Jefferson of the young USA, There doesn't seem to be any constitutional authority for that kind of thing, but Americans seldom let laws get in the way of a good deal. President Lincoln, or his Secretary of State Seward bought Alaska, although it was called Seward's folly for a long time.

There has been some theme drift all by myself in this post, what I wanted to say there is good reason Australians object to being compared to Americans. Perhaps its because their politicians seem to copy the worst features of ours?

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

Americans think Canadians have an accent, Eh?


There are a good number of quite distinct regional dialects/accents within the US. In a nation of immigrants everyone has an accent and many of them are proud of it.

Stand up and be proud of your accent.

Dominions Son

@richardshagrin

President Lincoln, or his Secretary of State Seward bought Alaska, although it was called Seward's folly for a long time.


Right up until the Alaskan gold rush started. :)

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@richardshagrin


French speakers, the snobby ones from Paris and environs think only they speak French.


Funny, but true, reflection. Having visited France multiple times, I have a different opinion of the France insistence on 'proper' French.

First of all, the problem is mostly focused in Paris. The French in the outlying areas of the country aren't as adamant.

But for my personal story:

The best approach to visiting Paris is to visit the areas where no one speaks English and the menu are all in French, don't speak a word of French (they'll never think it's correct anyway) and casually mention that you're from New York City. The Paritians will fall all over themselves, helping you out with everything!

The key, is that Paritians think they've got the best/worst attitude, but they all (collectively) consider NYC to be the most opinionated and pretentious people in the world, and most Paritians dream of visiting New York (the city).

You wouldn't think it would work, but every time I've visited Paris, I've had the same reactions by everyone I've met.

Talk about thread drift!

Replies:   tppm
tppm

I like Times New Roman, which should be in public domain as it was developed in the last decade of the 19th century, and isn't available on my Samsung Android Nook.

Replies:   zebra69347
tppm

@Crumbly Writer

The key, is that Paritians think they've got the best/worst attitude


Shouldn't that be "Parisians"?

BTW When Jefferson bought Louisiana he thought he should have been impeached, but Congress disagreed.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@tppm

Shouldn't that be "Parisians"?

Yep!

zebra69347

@tppm

Actually Times New Roman was designed for The Times newspaper in London in 1931.
Glad I don't do any publishing these days, but in the days of laser printers had a useful typeface for book production, Bitstream Charter. Similar to TNR but slightly thicker outline and took more space.

Kim Little

Hang on - if I am publishing an ePub or on Kindle or Kobo, and the fonts are not embedded, then I don't have to worry about any of this stuff, right?

I can change between a few fonts in iBooks and Kindle Reader so technically this shouldn't necessarily concern me, as the fonts I am reading are supplied by the reader, correct?

John Demille

@Kim Little

Correct. You're only responsible for what you distribute in your files.

Personally, I find this much attention to details a bit of a waste of time. I know that I configure all my reading software to override whatever style is embedded in the document and use my own preferred styles/fonts etc...

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Kim Little

Personally, I find this much attention to details a bit of a waste of time. I know that I configure all my reading software to override whatever style is embedded in the document and use my own preferred styles/fonts etc...

Kim/John, this whole thread started because I misinterpreted a blog posting, and the more I researched it, the more paranoid I became.

You don't need an ebook font license, because most 'converter' programs strip all the font information out. If you include a font name in an ebook, or you publish a print book, then you need the generic 'display' font license, the cheapest one available.

Kim, as I explained late in the discussion, ebooks generally don't specify font information. If you publish on Amazon, they'll strip out all the font specific information. However, if you include font information (font names) into your epub, they you could be liable (say if you're trying to use a serif font).

You do need a font license for print books, but in most cases, the generic 'display' font license (the cheapest) is fine.

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