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Fiction is the unfettered exploitation of the experiences of others

Bondi Beach
Updated:

From a piece in the NYT on 09/14/2016.

At the recent Brisbane Writers Festival Lionel Shriver delivered an address wherein she attacked the concept of "cultural appropriation," described as the practice by a writer who includes in his or her work characters of an ethnic or racial group different from the writer's own.

The cultural appropriation movement demands that writers stop doing this. One participant walked out of Shriver's keynote speech because, she said, the speech "became a celebration of the unfettered exploitation of the experiences of others, under the guise of fiction."

Long buildup, sorry, to ask this question: What fiction *isn't* the exploitation (unfettered, if you like) of the experiences of others?

"Exploitation" is pejorative, of course, but what's the real difference between "exploit" and "make use of" in writing fiction? It's impossible to write a story without incorporating the experiences of others, isn't it?

(The NYT piece includes a complaint by a Korean-American writer that her book about North Korea received less exposure and praise than The Orphan Master's Son, a novel about life in North Korea written by a white American author.)

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Switch Blayde

@Bondi Beach

described as the practice by a writer who includes in his or her work characters of an ethnic or racial group different from the writer's own.

The cultural appropriation movement demands that writers stop doing this.


Talk about racism!

Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

At the recent Brisbane Writers Festival Lionel Shriver delivered an address wherein she attacked the concept of "cultural appropriation," described as the practice by a writer who includes in his or her work characters of an ethnic or racial group different from the writer's own.


The concept of cultural appropriation is much broader than this. It has been applied to ethnic food, costumes, hair styles, even language itself.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@Dominions Son

The concept of cultural appropriation is much broader than this. It has been applied to ethnic food, costumes, hair styles, even language itself.


You refer to Gary Oldman's character in Quentin Tarantino's "True Romance," of course.

It was a writers' conference, after all, which probably explains the focus on writing rather than hairstyles.

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Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

You refer to Gary Oldman's character in Quentin Tarantino's "True Romance," of course.


No, I don't. None of the items I mentioned has anything to do with movies.

In the last couple of years several white actresses/models have been criticized for corn row hair styles at public events, not in films/commercials. At least one white actor has been criticized for appearing in public in dreadlocks.

The food appropriation is about ethnic themed restaurants.

Ethnic themed Halloween costumes worn on college campuses by college students have been condemned as "cultural appropriation"

Replies:   Bondi Beach  Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@Dominions Son

No, I don't. None of the items I mentioned has anything to do with movies.


I don't dispute your assertion that the cultural appropriation term has been applied to the whole universe (indeed, the NYT piece cites the student government leaders at a college in [I forget where] who were impeached for wearing sombreros).

That said, Gary Oldman's character in that movie, a "black" drug dealer, checked all your boxes: hair, costume, patois and, I think, ethnic food (ribs). His *character* was a white guy acting totally as a black guy. It was part of the character's shtick. The character was guilty of cultural appropriation. I meant the example as a joke, but it applies precisely to your definition.

Oldman claimed in an interview he learned everything he needed for the role from his own [presumably black] drug dealer, but he might have been kidding.

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garymrssn

Finding something that is commonplace in current culture and starting a movement against it has become a lucrative business model lately.
I wonder how many books they will want to ban this time?

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Dominions Son


The food appropriation is about ethnic themed restaurants.


This one is dead on. If the chefs and line cooks, at the very least, don't match the cuisine, stay away. EDIT: But not because of "cultural appropriation," but because they probably don't know what they're doing.

Although that isn't always the case. The staff, including at least some of the cooks, at our local French bakery are experts at baking French, even though they are almost all latinos.

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Replies:   Dominions Son
sejintenej
Updated:

All I can think is "Don't go there!".

Here on SOL we have non-Americans considering (if not actually) writing stories set in the US of A. We also have authors writing stories set in the 1800's (OK - they researched the subject but they were not there) whilst others write about life and death on other planets. There are even stories about sport by people who have apparently never actually played that sport.

As I started, Don't go there'. Forget cultural exploitation and all that crap and get on with life but don't deliberately offend the sensibilities of ordinary folk

Ernest Bywater

@Bondi Beach

"Exploitation" is pejorative, of course, but what's the real difference between "exploit" and "make use of" in writing fiction?


When someone exploits another the first person gains a benefit at the expense of the other person.

When a person makes use of another the first person gains a benefit without hurting the other person, and will often benefit the other person as well.

Thus there is a major difference between the two.

Often it's the ability of another person to present the case well that can raise the knowledge level of the public. If people were only allowed to write within their limited experiences then over 95% of all literature would cease to be, and the world would suffer a huge loss.

Only those who are unable to relate to others or have no real imagination can't do well to represent others. The problem today is there are many people who claim to be authors because they write books which are little more than a bitch session about something they're pushing, and not an actual well written story. many people can write a good essay on almost anything, but only a few can present it as an interesting fiction story worth reading.

As to the complaint about the Korean-American writer, without looking into it further I can identify two possible reasons for the difference noted:

1. The quality of the story itself - being Korean doesn't mean you can write well.

2. The effort put in by the publishing house and the author to promote the book.

Bondi Beach

@Ernest Bywater

When someone exploits another the first person gains a benefit at the expense of the other person.

When a person makes use of another the first person gains a benefit without hurting the other person, and will often benefit the other person as well.


According to my wife, the English major and principal authority on literature in our household, "Orphan Master" is an excellent novel. She hasn't read Kim's book. I haven't read either of them.

I don't understand how the author of "Orphan Master" gained a benefit at the expense of someone [the North Koreans?] else, solely because he is a white male American.

On re-reading Kim's complaint, she says *she*, not the North Koreans, is the one exploited---somehow---because she didn't get the coverage the white guy got. (Kim was born in Seoul and immigrated with her family when she was 13 years old.)

So, did Martin Cruz Smith exploit Russian (or Soviet) culture when he wrote Gorky Park without, apparently, ever having visited the Soviet Union? Did Tom Clancy wrongly appropriate U.S. Navy submarine culture when he wrote The Hunt for Red October without ever having served on or even stepping aboard a submarine?

Can you offer us an example of "cultural appropriation" that exploits the appropriated culture rather than making use of it for the writer's own purposes?

Forget Kim for the moment---her argument is the white guy got better treatment from his Korea book because he's white than she did, being Korean-American, from her own, both on the topic of North Korea. So she's the injured party, she says, not the appropriated culture itself.

So really this is all about injury to the writer rather than the appropriated culture, is that it?

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Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Bondi Beach

Can you offer us an example of "cultural appropriation" that exploits the appropriated culture rather than making use of it for the writer's own purposes?


The closest I can mention at this time is a woman who uses a man's name for her writings - maybe she didn't think she can sell as a woman.

I was speaking against the attitude of the Shriver and her claims. However, the point made in the NYT articles is exactly the issue I was raising with it - absolutely no discussion on the quality of the work or the authors, but one says "I'm being hard done by, because I'm of that race, so i should get better coverage." As I said, she either didn't write as well as the man, or didn't promote her book as well.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Bondi Beach


If the chefs and line cooks, at the very least, don't match the cuisine, stay away.


I have to disagree somewhat here.

There is nothing wrong with borrowing elements from a different ethnic cuisine. In fact, there is a whole food movement around mixing elements from different cuisines: Fusion Cuisine

The only problem is if you are claiming to serve some ethnic cuisine when you don't know how to prepare it as it would be done in it's native environment.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Crumbly Writer

Just think every single white Rock & Roll singer who appropriated the Blue's soul music for their own good, make millions doing it, while the originators of the sound (Chuck Berry, et al.) never received anywhere near the recognition.

However, it's not so clear cut. Face it, white Americans (among others) simply don't relate to anyone other than other white Americans. Africans can write 10,000 novels about the African experience, but when a single WASP writer covers it, suddenly it's a 'hot new trend'.

Yet, bitching about it won't change anything. Minorities have been railroaded for thousands of years, and it's not about to change anytime soon. You can't demand that no one else listens to your music, reads your books or listens to you gossiping on the subway. What you do (as a minority), is to pattern your experiences in such a way that the most people imaginable can appreciate them, and then market it like crazy and pray that you'll receive a pittance. Then, when some cute 20-year-old white guy steals all your credit and 'discovers' everything you've done, you simply lament "Well, it was nice while it lasted."

No one ever claimed that life is fair. You never saw Tesla complaining about Einstein 'appropriating' the light bulb, do you?

That said, Ernest's point is valid too. It's not just a white repackaging of someone else's experience, but seeing it in a way they didn't, and making it real for readers in a way it wasn't before. If the precursor to Roots was too difficult for white readers to make it past the first 5 pages because of all the white guilt, then don't blame someone else for stealing your thunder!

Replies:   Bondi Beach  REP
Bondi Beach

@Ernest Bywater

The closest I can mention at this time is a woman who uses a man's name for her writings - maybe she didn't think she can sell as a woman.


You mean someone like Mary Ann Evans, the Victorian author who wrote as "George Eliot"? Leaving aside the whole question of equal quality (the Korean thing), I'm not clear on how she exploited anything, since the device was to facilitate getting published in the first case. (Never read any of her stuff, so maybe I'm missing something.)


I was speaking against the attitude of the Shriver and her claims.


Shriver, the keynote speaker in Brisbane, was arguing against the whole cultural appropriation thing, saying it's hogwash for many of the reasons raised in this discussion.

I guess it boils down to, "The white guy took a Korean thing and made more (although probably some would say *any*) money and acclaim out of the Korean thing than I, an authentic Korean, did." (Again, we leave aside the question of quality.)

I'm guessing the argument ends up as, "You can't take anything at all that's not yours and make something of it," which is jackassery at its finest. That leads back to the original question: doesn't all fiction exploit / make use of another's experience and culture and life? Yes.

If I make a better taco than my buddy Rodrigo, that's one thing. But these folks seems to be arguing that I shouldn't even think about making a taco at all.

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Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

As to the complaint about the Korean-American writer, without looking into it further I can identify two possible reasons for the difference noted:


3. The subject of the book.
4. The Genre of the book.

The NYT article has a link to a book review of the Korean-American's book. The book is describe as "a chilling memoir of this Korean-American author's 2011 stint as a visiting English instructor at a North Korean ­university". In other words non-fiction

Yet the book written by a white author she chose to complain about "won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction in 2013, "

So:

1. Her book wasn't even eligible for the category the other book won a Pulitzer Prize in so that detracts nothing from her book.

2. Let's face facts here. Unless you are a major celebrity to begin with, you memoir is not going to out sell even a mediocre novel, much less one good enough to win a Pulitzer Prize.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Ernest Bywater

@Bondi Beach

You mean someone like Mary Ann Evans, the Victorian author who wrote as "George Eliot"?


I was taking a shot at Margaret Anne Shriver writing under the name Lionel Shriver - - I read the original post's first paragraph as Shriver attacking the use of culture you weren't raised in. If she's saying it's OK to write about a culture or time you researched but didn't directly experience, then I agree.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

I guess it boils down to, "The white guy took a Korean thing and made more (although probably some would say *any*) money and acclaim out of the Korean thing than I, an authentic Korean, did." (Again, we leave aside the question of quality.)


You are also leaving aside that the white guy's thing was a completely different thing from her thing.

Bondi Beach

@Crumbly Writer

If the precursor to Roots was too difficult for white readers to make it past the first 5 pages because of all the white guilt, then don't blame someone else for stealing your thunder!


White guilt and liberal weenism is what stopped the entire literary critical world from calling out Alex Haley's Roots for the plagarized work it was. So Haley doesn't get a pass just because the work he plagarized wasn't a success, for whatever reason.

(I liked his Autobiography of Malcolm X, although I didn't know at the time he was the ghostwriter.)

There's no crime in writing a better story, but plagarizing, or even "borrowing" without giving credit is fatal, or should be.

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Crumbly Writer

@Bondi Beach

If I make a better taco than my buddy Rodrigo, that's one thing. But these folks seems to be arguing that I shouldn't even think about making a taco at all.

Even worse, they're arguing for the erection of greater walls than Trump ever proposed, which not only block access to a country, but also lock out anyone else appreciating or even recognizing anything about your culture.

How the hell can people learn to accept Muslims if they refuse to allow us to learn about and experience their culture (not that I've heard them complaining about it, quite the opposite, in fact).

In the end, if you're trying to publish in a given country, you've got to market your work (and direct the story) so it appeals to the citizen of that country. If that means playing up to your oppressors, then you've got to bit your lip and do it. If you want anyone to appreciate your experiences, often you have to invite a WASP voice in to tell your story. It's as simple as that.

Bondi Beach

@Ernest Bywater

If she's saying it's OK to write about a culture or time you researched but didn't directly experience, then I agree.


Exactly. She attacks the folks who say writing about another's culture is "cultural appropriation" and says the concept is nonsense. She apparently put on a sombrero during part of her speech, to poke a little more fun at the idea she was attacking.

Sorry, my original post didn't make it clear she was attacking the idea, not supporting it. And the conference organizers didn't like that. At all.

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Replies:   Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

The closest I can mention at this time is a woman who uses a man's name for her writings - maybe she didn't think she can sell as a woman.


There are plenty of male Mills & Boone authors who use female pen names at the behest of the company, which recognises that slushy romances sell better if the purchasers think the authors are female.

On the subject of cultural appropriation, there's another topic which encourages people of all persuasions to try their hand at writing gay fiction ;)

AJ

Bondi Beach

@Dominions Son

The NYT article has a link to a book review of the Korean-American's book. The book is describe as "a chilling memoir of this Korean-American author's 2011 stint as a visiting English instructor at a North Korean ­university". In other words non-fiction


Did you see her subsequent letter to the editor to complain the reviewer got key concepts of her book entirely wrong? She's not a happy camper.

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Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@Bondi Beach

she was attacking the idea, not supporting it. And the conference organizers didn't like that. At all.

Because they're probably trying to include MORE minority voices, and she just declared war on them. It's not that clear cut, but you can see how inviting those little recognized, just to be told everyone is entitled to profit off their life experiences is like taking a freezing cold shower. There's the truth of words, and then there are words that cut--whether true or not.

Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

Did you see her subsequent letter to the editor to complain the reviewer got key concepts of her book entirely wrong? She's not a happy camper.


Apparently you either didn't bother to read her letter to the editor yourself, or you didn't understand the point of my comment.

She did not dispute the one point that is pertinent to my comment. She did not dispute that her book was a memoir, a work of non-fiction.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

and she just declared war on them.


Bullshit.

The cultural appropriation meme as it is writ in the larger culture does no favors for minority authors. The opposite in fact. The whole movement around preventing "cultural appropriation" would see white people enjoying reading their works as "cultural appropriation"

Profit doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. White college students and celebrities have been lambasted for wearing "ethnic" hair styles or ethnic clothing.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Bondi Beach

@Dominions Son

Apparently you either didn't bother to read her letter to the editor yourself, or you didn't understand the point of my comment.

She did not dispute the one point that is pertinent to my comment. She did not dispute that her book was a memoir, a work of non-fiction.


Wow. I wasn't disputing your comment at all. I was making an additional observation. And I wasn't suggesting *she* was disputing your comment.

I was, I thought, adding a little note of interest to the discussion about her, by pointing out she was pissed practically from the get-go by how her book was reviewed.

You apparently did not understand my comment.

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Replies:   Dominions Son
samuelmichaels

@Crumbly Writer

Because they're probably trying to include MORE minority voices, and she just declared war on them.

I found this very confusing. How is defending the right of authors to write about other traditions attacking minorities?

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

You apparently did not understand my comment.


Apparently not, sorry. :)

Bondi Beach

@samuelmichaels

I found this very confusing. How is defending the right of authors to write about other traditions attacking minorities?


That's a question best directed to the conference organizers, but apparently the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is that it exploits minorities when non-minorities (or any non-member of the culture, presumably) writes about the minority culture and thereby exploits them.

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Replies:   samuelmichaels
Joe_Bondi_Beach

@Dominions Son

Apparently not, sorry. :)


No worries.

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samuelmichaels

@Bondi Beach

That's a question best directed to the conference organizers


It's actually a question for CW, who wrote

she just declared war on [minority voices]

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@samuelmichaels

It's actually a question for CW, who wrote

she just declared war on [minority voices]


Well, sure, but on the assumption---possibly wrong---that by "she" CW referred to the keynote speaker and her attack on the whole concept of "cultural appropriation," it's the conference organizers, unhappy with her speech, who need to explain why what she said is an attack on minorities.

That they believe it was an attack is evidenced by their quick organization of a rebuttal conference, and their deletion of links on their website to the keynote address. They also claim the keynoter did not speak to the topic they assigned her.

But you're right, let CW speak for himself.

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REP

@Crumbly Writer

Minorities have been railroaded for thousands of years, and it's not about to change anytime soon.


Very true. In many parts of the country, whites are the minority.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@REP

Heck look at any form used by any government agency including Social Security or Welfare. Preferential treatment and benefits are given based on color and cultures. Hispanic, blacks and native american (indian) get much better benefits. And don't forget those so-called refugees from Vietnam or Cambodia for example.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@docholladay

Heck look at any form used by any government agency including Social Security or Welfare. Preferential treatment and benefits are given based on color and cultures.


Show us where on the U.S. Social Security Administration application for retirement benefits it offers preferential treatment or benefits based on color or culture. A link to the actual application form would be helpful.

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Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

The cultural appropriation meme as it is writ in the larger culture does no favors for minority authors. The opposite in fact. The whole movement around preventing "cultural appropriation" would see white people enjoying reading their works as "cultural appropriation"

Believe me, I don't know a single black man or woman who would object to selling their goods to a white audience. They may feel more satisfied to sell to other blacks--as that strikes at satisfaction--but ultimately, you'll never amount to diddly if no one knows about you.

Most of the complaints about cultural appropriation isn't about wearing cornrows--though that's an element--it's instead benefiting from the culture without understanding it or appreciating the lives of the people involved.

My Rock & Roll appropriation was deeply felt, because most of the white artists made huge sums, while the black artists who invented the styles which were appropriated received a pittance. However, having lived in Chicago for years, I can honestly tell you, the artists were more than willing to credit the original black artists (in private at least) for birthing the movement.

Part of an unjust system involves recognizing that it's unjust. Minorities will never get the same breaks that others will, and those in the majority can't avoid being benefitted. However, it helps everyone to pull together, and to help out when you can. Taking without giving back doesn't help anyone, but giving away everything benefits no one either.

@samuelmichaels

I wasn't saying that was the author's intent. I was commenting that the organizers weren't pleased because they (supposedly) were struggling to attract minority authors, and she gets up and say, "We (privileged authors) should be able to appropriate anything we want". Again, she's got a valid point, but it runs counter to the image the group was trying to convey that minority voices are welcomed.

To get an idea of the impact, imagine if the next academy awards was, once again, all white, but someone stood up and declared "We whites should be free to play any role we want". It's a valid statement, but the timing is poorly executed.

Ross at Play
Updated:

My culture is HUMAN BEING!

I read write about the human experience (thinking of sci-fi as a literary device to view that experience in another way).

I recall there have been big scandals in Australia over authors misrepresenting themselves to claim personal insights into their fiction. I would condemn that.

But responding to such whinges about fiction labelled as fiction - anything beyond the two word reply, "FUCK OFF!", suggests their opinions are more worthy of credibility than is deseved.

Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

The only problem is if you are claiming to serve some ethnic cuisine when you don't know how to prepare it as it would be done in it's native environment.


Most "Mexican food" served outside of the border states usually isn't very Mexican in nature. Most "Chinese food" served in the U.S. is in a comparable state. Even "Italian Food" is different in the U.S. than its Italian counterpart. Some differences are more subtle than others, but they're still there.

Also, at some point, in particular for eateries, you may need to decide to forsake authenticity in favor of local tastes/preferences and/or expectations if you want your business to succeed. Which usually means that yes, ethnic foods will tend to "blend" with other local fare over time.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Dominions Son


That's a question best directed to the conference organizers, but apparently the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is that it exploits minorities when non-minorities (or any non-member of the culture, presumably) writes about the minority culture and thereby exploits them.


As with many of these movements, there are two(or more) tiers to what is being claimed. I'll call them the sane and insane tiers respectively.

Most of the discussion here has been focused on the "insane" side of it, as it gets the most attention, and widest adoption because it's easier to understand and enforce.

The sane side of it is more about "appropriation" of cultural elements that are not your own, which you do not understand, and as a consequence, render it into a caricature of what it should be. That caricature, and perpetuation of it, is the thing that the "sane" side is taking issue with.

Of which, the sombrero wearers are often guilty of the caricature act. (Note: Often is not to be confused with always.)

If you're being respectful, have done your due diligence in your research, and are not creating or perpetuating a caricature/sterotype of their culture(that is inaccurate), then you should be in the clear. With the sane crowd, anyhow. The insane ones will do whatever they want regardless.

Ross at Play

@Not_a_ID

If you're being respectful, have done your due diligence in your research, and are not creating or perpetuating a caricature/stereotype of their culture (that is inaccurate)

Your distinction between sane and insane agitators seems pertinent. Perhaps you could repeat it on another thread where groups like Act Up have been mentioned.

But I STILL do not agree it is "cultural approbation" if an author fails to do those things - EVEN IF their creation contains inaccurate caricatures of other cultures!
That almost certainly WOULD be culturally offensive. So what? I may be critical of poor writing if the offense was not intended.
"Approbation" requires some level of deception - some CLAIM to knowledge that aspects of your creation reflect reality.
If I ever (dead-tree) publish something including including scenes in some Asian or Middle Eastern countries I would be sure to include in my forward, "This is a work of fiction written by a native Australian". If someone claimed 'cultural approbation' I could then point that out and state, "I was offensive to their culture, intentionally so! I am one of the many Australians who find some aspects of their culture offensive, so FUCK OFF!"

Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

???

What you quoted is not my comment.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Not_a_ID


Most "Mexican food" served outside of the border states usually isn't very Mexican in nature. Most "Chinese food" served in the U.S. is in a comparable state. Even "Italian Food" is different in the U.S. than its Italian counterpart.


I don't know how many "most" means, but the days of refried beans and rice and something drowned in red sauce presented as "Mexican" and chop suey presented as Chinese are fading where I live. There's too much competition in the SF Bay Area from real ethnic restaurants.

Here's five:

China Village, Albany, CA (Szechuan)

Yank Sing, San Francisco (dim sum)

La Ciccia, San Francisco (Sardinian)

Doña Tomás, Oakland, CA (Mexican)

The Slanted Door, San Francisco (Vietnamese)

I don't know whether these folks are preparing the dishes exactly the way their chefs' mothers did, but I've met the chefs at La Ciccia and China Village, and I'd hate to argue to them their cuisine isn't authentic.

Sure, dishes are adapted all the time to local tastes, but as I pointed out above, the caricature restaurants have some stiff competition.

All generalizations are bad.

bb

Replies:   richardshagrin  REP
richardshagrin

@Bondi Beach

All generalizations are bad.

Looks like a generalization to me. Is it a brigadier, major, lieutenant, or four star General ization? Or maybe a five star, Generalization of the Army?

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@richardshagrin

@Bondi Beach
All generalizations are bad.
Looks like a generalization to me. Is it a brigadier, major, lieutenant, or four star General ization? Or maybe a five star, Generalization of the Army?


Generalization is the process by which flag officers multiply under cover of night or a national emergency---genuine or manufactured---and thereby infest a hitherto lean military organization, much in the way lantana infests Australian gardens or Scottish thistle does likewise with gardens in California.

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sejintenej

@Bondi Beach

I guess it boils down to, "The white guy took a Korean thing and made more (although probably some would say *any*) money and acclaim out of the Korean thing than I, an authentic Korean, did." (Again, we leave aside the question of quality.)

Kim, the "authentic Korean" left Korea at the age of 13 to live in the US of A. At the age of 13 did she already have such a complete knowledge of Korea, its culture, its history etc. to have a better mastery of the subject than a foreigner who presumably had studied the subject in considerable depth. IF Kim had lived for 31 years in Korea my view as to her knowledge would have been different.

Bondi Beach

@sejintenej

IF Kim had lived for 31 years in Korea my view as to her knowledge would have been different.


Kim spent several months teaching English to kids of the North Korean elite in 2011 and drew from that experience for her memoir.

Adam Johnson, the author of Orphan Master's Son, spent five days in North Korea in 2007.

As far as Kim's qualifications go, I think trying to figure out who has a bonafide claim to being authentic [insert flavor at issue] is about as useful as deciding whether hamburgers or hot dogs are more authentically American.

bb

Dominions Son

@sejintenej

Kim, the "authentic Korean" left Korea at the age of 13 to live in the US of A. At the age of 13 did she already have such a complete knowledge of Korea, its culture, its history etc. to have a better mastery of the subject than a foreigner who presumably had studied the subject in considerable depth. IF Kim had lived for 31 years in Korea my view as to her knowledge would have been different.


1. Kim went back as an adult to teach ESL classes at a North Korean university.

2. Kim wrote a memoir (of the time spend teaching ESL classes in NK). Adam Johnson wrote a novel. The two works aren't even remotely comparable.

3. Kim complains that Johnson's book received undeserved acclaim that should have gone to her book, because Johnson's book won a Pulitzer Prize in a category her book wasn't even eligible for.

4. She then posits that the only reason Johnson's book got the acclaim that it did was because of racism.

Johnson's book could have been about an Amish pig farmer in North Dakota, and he book would still have gotten more acclaim than Kim's.

Memoirs from people who are not household name level famous to start with don't get $$$, acclaim or prizes. That's just the way it is.

Bondi Beach

@sejintenej

IF Kim had lived for 31 years in Korea my view as to her knowledge would have been different.


The more I think about it, though, the issue seems to be more how come that non-member of the culture gets to make more money / prestige / awards/ whatever off of the culture than the authentic (however that is defined) member makes, not necessarily how accurate the picture of the culture the non-member paints.

However, Tony Hillerman not only isn't criticized but is honored by the Navajo Nation for his portrayal of Navajo cops and Navajo culture in his Joe Leaphorn / Jim Chee series. His books probably earned more than any cop thriller written by a native Navajo. They also portray the culture, warts and all, very sympathetically.

bb

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

The more I think about it, though, the issue seems to be more how come that non-member of the culture gets to make more money / prestige / awards/ whatever off of the culture than the authentic (however that is defined) member makes, not necessarily how accurate the picture of the culture the non-member paints.


The problem with this view is that the nature of the work of the member in this case is such that even if the non-member's work had been about something completely different, the member's work still would have gotten lest money / prestige / awards / whatever.

The member wrote a type of book that as a category simply doesn't get money / prestige / awards / whatever.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@Dominions Son

The member wrote a type of book that as a category simply doesn't get money / prestige / awards / whatever.


Right. That certainly answers the immediate example we've been discussing. Indeed, there can't really be any discussion about how my apple is shinier than her orange, unless she's going to argue that no matter what, people are going to give more kudos to the non-member's apple than the member's orange. It's absurd.

Which leaves the question of what the heck "cultural appropriation" is, and what's a good example of two comparable books, fiction or non-fiction, that illustrate it (sticking to books for the moment). In music, I guess, we've already had examples of white musicians making money off of music by African-Americans.

I'm still unable to make the argument, for the sake of argument, that "cultural appropriation" means anything at all or that, if it does, it's bad.

bb

Ross at Play

Where would these objections get to if taken to their logical end? No American who'd never traveled outside America could write about anything from outside America.
... wait a minute! ... this might be a good idea!

Not_a_ID

So we'd need to ban most of the works of Isaac Asimov?

REP

@Bondi Beach

Sure, dishes are adapted all the time to local tastes


As an expansion on your comment, I suspect that if someone were to go to China and eat the same dish in different places, they would find the dishes are prepared differently according to local and personal preferences.

REP
Updated:

The discussion of Cultural Appropriation has been very interesting. However, while I only have a minimal understanding of the topic, I do have a few thoughts/questions about Cultural Appropriation.

1. Throughout history, writers have written about topics related to other cultures that were outside their personal experience. According to my understanding of Cultural Appropriation that is wrong. WHY?

2. The whole Cultural Appropriation culture seems to have come from nowhere. I doubt it, but do they have a valid point. If not, why has anyone given them any credibility.

I personally think Cultural Appropriation is a way of gaining attention for a reason that I don't understand. Perhaps money or fame?

3. Does Cultural Appropriation mean that if I write a story and mention someone of a different race, mention ethnic food, or other similar thing, that I am guilty of being Politically Incorrect.

Personally, I think the Cultural Appropriation group is making too much of a to-do over nothing.

Dominions Son

@REP

1. You are a RACIST for even asking the question.

2. See 1.

3. You are racist and politically incorrect. Of course if you wrote a story and didn't include anyone of a different race, you would be racist.

(Not my personal opinions)

Replies:   REP
Ross at Play

@REP

There is an example in Australia where objections to "cultural approbation" are valid. It is paintings and artifacts created in the style of historical indigenous art, and sold as if they were the work of living indigenous artists.
There is not a specific law prohibiting this, as some are pushing for, but prosecutions may be made for breaches of laws requiring honest descriptions of products for sale by businesses.
Also the government funded bodies set enhance "the arts" are specifically funded to investigate possible breaches. There is a "Code of Conduct" that is voluntary, but the risk of being publicly exposed as breaching that code negates much of the profit motive.
* * *
Regarding complaints about authors who have not represented themselves or their knowledge, I could not state my opinion any better than your WHY? :-)

Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

There is an example in Australia where objections to "cultural approbation" are valid. It is paintings and artifacts created in the style of historical indigenous art, and sold as if they were the work of living indigenous artists.


That's not cultural appropriation, it's fraud.

Replies:   REP
Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

There is an example in Australia where objections to "cultural approbation" are valid. It is paintings and artifacts created in the style of historical indigenous art, and sold as if they were the work of living indigenous artists


There's also the other issue where some mixed blood artists are claiming to be selling traditional Aboriginal art, but are creating and selling the style of artwork they were encouraged to make by Geoffrey Bardon, an art teacher. Although much like the traditional style they were different because the dots were more excessive in the new style.

You also raise the question of Albert Namatjira doing very realistic landscapes as per the European style of painting, as against the traditional Aboriginal style. Was he doing this approbation in reverse?

Replies:   Bondi Beach
REP

@Dominions Son

(Not my personal opinions)


If they aren't your opinions, whose are they?

This is also the first time I have ever heard someone being labeled a Racist for defining a situation and then asking for an explanation.

Of course many of us back down when the 'Racist' label is hung on them, so it is an effect tactic to win a dispute. I personally think that many people see Racism in everyday events that have nothing to do with race.

REP

@Dominions Son

That's not cultural appropriation, it's fraud.


I agree, but Cultural Appropriation seems to be more about making money than anything else.

Dominions Son

@REP

This is also the first time I have ever heard someone being labeled a Racist for defining a situation and then asking for an explanation.


Really? Pay attention to the on-going "civil rights" movement and advocates for minorities. Anyone who questions a declaration that something is racist is immediately labeled a racist.

"Cultural appropriation" is about finding racism everywhere.

Replies:   REP
awnlee jawking

@REP

This is also the first time I have ever heard someone being labeled a Racist for defining a situation and then asking for an explanation.


You may have missed a debate about immigration. Not supporting unlimited immigration is frequently branded racist.

Mentioning the many downsides to religions such as Islam is also branded racist.

'Racist' is one of the favourite words of the professionally offended :(

AJ

Replies:   REP
Ross at Play

@REP

So in most cases the best answer to complaints of cultural approbation is: If it's not fraud, fuck off!

Dominions Son
Updated:

@REP


I agree, but Cultural Appropriation seems to be more about making money than anything else.


Actually, the "cultural appropriation" movement in the US started on college campuses and was directed mostly at "ethnic" themed parties by frats and white students adopting "ethnic" fashions.

To the extent it's about making money, it's about drumming up donations for the activists pushing it.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Not_a_ID
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Actually, the "cultural appropriation" movement in the US started on college campuses and was directed mostly at "ethnic" themed parties by frats and white students adopting "ethnic" fashions.

To the extent it's about making money, it's about drumming up donations for the activists pushing it.


Hmm, who gets to ask for the money for a toga party?

My response to that sort of emotional blackmail would be to ban anything to do with that ethnic culture being in the frat due to liability and cost concerns. Then see how they like having their culture totally ignored.

REP

@Dominions Son

Anyone who questions a declaration that something is racist is immediately labeled a racist.

"Cultural appropriation" is about finding racism everywhere.


As I said, I don't know much about "Cultural appropriation", but from the discussion here in the Forum, it seems to be about a person making money from artistic efforts relating to a culture other than their own. The examples used in this Forum have mostly related to the culture of different nationalities - Nationality is not race.

William Shakespeare, a highly respected English poet, playwright, and actor, wrote a play and made money from his play Romeo and Juliet. It was a play about two Italian people in love who were members of two feuding Italian families to include their cultural beliefs.

If I apply your interpretation of "Cultural Appropriation", then Shakespeare was a Racist.

From what I have observed of "civil rights' activists questioning a declaration, they are not asking for an explanation. Their 'questioning' seems to take the form of civil disobedience and violence at a demonstration.

REP

@awnlee jawking

Yes, I did miss that debate.

I would have modified 'professionally offended' in your comment to 'professionally and personally offended'.

Dominions Son

@REP

From what I have observed of "civil rights' activists questioning a declaration, they are not asking for an explanation.


Their not the ones questioning. They declare X is racist and any one who questions that is then labeled a racist.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son
Updated:

@REP


The examples used in this Forum have mostly related to the culture of different nationalities - Nationality is not race.


Yes, but it's always someone from a white European culture appropriating something from the culture of someone of "color". It's never "cultural appropriation" if it goes the other way around.

It's not about nationality. It also covers national sub-cultures, as long as the majority culture is white/European in origin and the sub-culture in question has a racial tie.

Thus, a white American rock start building off elements from hip hop music is cultural appropriation, but if the hip hop artist builds off of elements of say Country/Western music, it's not.

REP

@Dominions Son

Yes, but it's always someone from a white European culture appropriating something from the culture of someone of "color". It's never "cultural appropriation" if it goes the other way around.


That is because the definition of Cultural appropriation seems to be:

Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture. Cultural appropriation is seen by some as controversial, notably when elements of a minority culture are used by members of the cultural majority; this is seen as wrongfully oppressing the minority culture or stripping it of its group identity and intellectual property rights.

Are you saying that it is okay for a person of a minority group to the elements of a majority culture to
strip the majority culture of their group identity and intellectual property rights?

Replies:   Dominions Son
REP

@Dominions Son

Their not the ones questioning. They declare X is racist and any one who questions that is then labeled a racist.


Your statement is confusing. It sounds as if you are saying that the civil rights activists are labeling X as racist, and the civil rights activists label anyone who disagrees with them as a racist.

Replies:   aubie56  Dominions Son
REP

@Dominions Son

You still haven't responded to my original question:

If they aren't your opinions, whose are they?

Replies:   Dominions Son
aubie56

@REP

"Your statement is confusing. It sounds as if you are saying that the civil rights activists are labeling X as racist, and the civil rights activists label anyone who disagrees with them as a racist."

If you don't believe the above statement is true, then you have not been paying attention to the news reports over the last few years.

Replies:   REP
Dominions Son
Updated:

@REP


If they aren't your opinions, whose are they?


It's an exaggeration/caricature of the publicly stated opinions of the activists pushing the "cultural appropriation" meme. I thought that would be obvious.

Replies:   REP
Dominions Son

@REP

Your statement is confusing. It sounds as if you are saying that the civil rights activists are labeling X as racist, and the civil rights activists label anyone who disagrees with them as a racist.


Not confusing at all, you got it exactly right.

Bondi Beach

@Ernest Bywater

Although much like the traditional style they were different because the dots were more excessive in the new style.


Ernest, this is important. Were the dots "excessive" because there were too many of them, or because each one was larger than regulation size?

We need to be able to define our degrees of cultural appropriation (N.B.: *not* "approbation") to ensure we capture the requisite degree of subtlety in this conversation.

bb

Dominions Son

@REP

Are you saying that it is okay for a person of a minority group to the elements of a majority culture to
strip the majority culture of their group identity and intellectual property rights?


I'm not saying that. That's just always the way it comes out from the anti-"cultural appropriation" activists."

I personally don't see anything wrong with it going either way.

1. Neither way is anyone stripping anything from anyone. How am I stripping away the cultural identity of Mexicans by eating a taco? I'm not. Is a Mexican somehow depriving me of my cultural identity by eating a hamburger or wearing "american" clothes. The whole thing is absurd.

2. I am not aware of any case where "cultural appropriation" has been raised where any kind of intellectual property rights have been at issue.

Does someone have a patent or trade mark on the cornrows or dreadlocks hair styles?

The problem is you are trying to make "cultural appropriation" make some kind of rational sense. It doesn't It's just a hammer some minority activists invented to whack white people with.

Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

Ernest, this is important. Were the dots "excessive" because there were too many of them, or because each one was larger than regulation size?


According to what I found on Wikipedia, the problem isn't really excessiveness.

In 1971–1972, art teacher Geoffrey Bardon encouraged Aboriginal people in Papunya, north west of Alice Springs to put their Dreamings onto canvas. These stories had previously been drawn on the desert sand, and were now given a more permanent form.

The dots were used to cover secret-sacred ceremonies. Originally, the Tula artists succeeded in forming their own company with an Aboriginal Name, Papunya Tula Artists Pty Ltd,[19] however a time of disillusionment followed as artists were criticised by their peers for having revealed too much of their sacred heritage. Secret designs restricted to a ritual context were now in the market place, made visible to Australian Aboriginal painting. Much of the Aboriginal art on display in tourist shops traces back to this style developed at Papunya. The most famous of the artists to come from this movement was Clifford Possum Tjapaltjarri. Also from this movement is Johnny Warangkula, whose Water Dreaming at Kalipinya twice sold at a record price, the second time being $486,500 in 2000.

The Papunya Collection at the National Museum of Australia contains over 200 artifacts and paintings, including examples of 1970's dot paintings.[20]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australian_art

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
REP

@aubie56

I do believe the statement is true. I've seen many of the news reports. I also noted that many of the claims of racism had no factual basis, or if there was a factual basis, it was not made clear in the news reports.

The reason I made the statement to DS is he appears to be saying that just because an activist expresses an opinion of racism, the opinion has to be true. If someone sees no factual basis for the opinion and questions its validity, the activist labels the person a racist.

That may be a very effective tactic, but it makes those of us still sitting on the fence about the specific topic think the activist and their supporters are ignorant people and then their opinion on that subject becomes highly questionable. They would be better served by explaining why X is racism to those who question their opinion. Labeling someone as a racist just makes them resist what the activist is supporting.

Replies:   Dominions Son
REP

@Dominions Son

It's an exaggeration/caricature of the publicly stated opinions of the activists pushing the "cultural appropriation" meme. I thought that would be obvious.


Obvious or not, Dominions Son labeled REP a Racist.

Since I am REP, I take offense at being labeled a Racist because I questioned the validity of the 'Cultural Appropriation' movement.

If you checked the definitions of Racist and Racism, you would find that a Racist is a person who practices Racism, and Racism is the practice of using Race as the basis for making decisions and determining what actions one should take.

Nothing in my remarks were racially oriented, so it was wrong of you to label me a Racist. That is especially true since you know nothing about me other than my one post in which I acknowledged being a fat, 70-year old man.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@REP


Obvious or not, Dominions Son labeled REP a Racist


Then I apologize.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

Then I apologize.


Apology accepted.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@REP


hey would be better served by explaining why X is racism to those who question their opinion.


They can't explain it because there is no rational why. It's all about emotion. If a minority feels like you disrespected / insulted / oppressed them, than it's true. Only the feelings of the victim matters, not the actual facts.

Of course that isn't reversible for a white person feeling the same things.

That's because racism isn't about bias, it's about power and white people are in a position of power and minorities aren't. They maintain that this power dynamic holds even if it's a wealthy minority vs poor white trash. This is why they say minorities can't be racist.

Labeling someone as a racist just makes them resist what the activist is supporting.


True. This is why they are constantly pushing for "hate" crimes / "hate" speech laws, so they can use the force of government to beat those who disagree with them into submission.

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@REP

From what I have observed of "civil rights' activists questioning a declaration, they are not asking for an explanation. Their 'questioning' seems to take the form of civil disobedience and violence at a demonstration.

I don't think I've ever met a civil rights activist who goes out, seeking to inspire violence, since the violence is usually directed at them! Instead, they're trying to force people to rethink their positions, so they're trying to rephrase the debate and raise questions. Violence is an unpleasant byproduct, but one which silence won't avoid.

If you can tell a story which reaches more readers than someone from the culture you're writing about, then more power to you. At least you're spreading knowledge. But they key is to understand what the fuck you're talking about, so you don't spread more cultural stereotypes rather than an honest description of the people, and especially don't lift someone's else plot or text in a single piece. Make sure you have something unique to say, rather than merely 'appropriating' someone else's viewpoint!

Replies:   REP  Ernest Bywater
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Their not the ones questioning. They declare X is racist and any one who questions that is then labeled a racist.

You're confusing minorities with Donald Trump, who's quick to take any attack on him, however apt, and accuse those attacking him of exactly the same thing, to rob the attack of it's impact. Republican's learned that trick decades ago. If you steal someone's words, they no longer have a message to convey!

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


You're confusing minorities with Donald Trump, who's quick to take any attack on him, however apt, and accuse those attacking him of exactly the same thing


No, I'm not. You can see it in the news constantly. You can see it in the very article linked to at the top of the thread. The speaker was labeled a racist just for questioning the validity of the "cultural appropriation" meme.

Republican's learned that trick decades ago. If you steal someone's words, they no longer have a message to convey!


Bullshit.

1. it's just straight up false. You saying the same thing I am saying does nothing to silence me.

2. Go look at FDR. That kind of political tactic goes back at least that far.

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Yes, but it's always someone from a white European culture appropriating something from the culture of someone of "color". It's never "cultural appropriation" if it goes the other way around.

I'm sorry, but this entire discussion has been bordering on outright racism for some time. Claims that protestors seek violence to promote their cause, that they're too stupid to state anything eloquently, or that they have anything of value to offer reeks of stereotypical racist dogma.

If we're discussing ideas here, then let's discuss the ideas, rather than sound bites and stereotypes. You don't need to deride anyone you don't agree with, just view their statements and decide whether they have any merit or not. Attack the idea and not the people!

Crumbly Writer

@Crumbly Writer

D.S., you're obviously on another rant, and no appeal to rationality, reason, logic or understanding will stand in front of your unblemished wrath.

When you're willing to discuss ideas with slightly less outright hatred and disdain, then we can discuss ideas, but lately, you seem inclined to belittle everyone and dismiss their ideas out of hand if they don't kowtoe to your biased opinions. THis isn't a discussion forum, it's a "Everyone SHUT THE HELL UP if they don't agree with me!" rant site.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Claims that protestors seek violence to promote their cause


Not by me.

that they're too stupid to state anything eloquently


I've said no such thing.

I've not put anything on minorities in general. Only on certain highly vocal minority/anti-racism activists.

You don't need to deride anyone you don't agree with, just view their statements and decide whether they have any merit or not. Attack the idea and not the people!


Practice what you preach. You accused the speaker in the article of waging war on minority authors just for questioning the validity of the "cultural appropriation" meme.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

THis isn't a discussion forum, it's a "Everyone SHUT THE HELL UP if they don't agree with me!" rant site.


You're the one telling some one to shut up, I've done no such thing.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP

@Dominions Son

Only the feelings of the victim matters, not the actual facts.


You are wrong. Racism is about the Racist's acts and actions, not the emotions of the Racist's victims.

racism isn't about bias, it's about power


Wrong again. Racism has everything to do with the bias of the Racist. The power wielded by the Racist may help them avoid retribution; it doesn't make them rigt.

This is why they say minorities can't be racist.


Again, I disagree. It doesn't matter what 'they' say. Anyone who commits an act of Racism, regardless of their race, is a Racist.

Of course that isn't reversible for a white person feeling the same things.


I prefer a single standard for all people. All that type of double standard does is make people angry with each other.

From the news reports I've seen so far the "hate" crimes / "hate" speech laws have been used against a lot of whites who committed despicable acts, so it's not clear who you mean by 'they' and 'them', but I can guess by the tone of your comment. I personally feel that anyone who commits a racially motivated crime should be punished not only for the crime but for the reason they committed the crime, regardless of the perpetrator's race.

REP

@Crumbly Writer

I don't think I've ever met a civil rights activist who goes out, seeking to inspire violence


Off the top of my head, I would say you are probably right about civil rights activists; at least about those who favor peaceful solutions.

I know that our media presents the worst case views of anything, because that is what sells papers and boosts viewing rating. Personally I don't trust anything they present me. However, I do see what they present.

Please explain how a peaceful activist's organization of a demonstration turns into a group of angry rioting people who destroy public and private property, which is what the media presents to me as news. They don't show the calm peaceful start of the demonstration or what setoff the demonstrators, they just show the violence which is what they believe their viewers want to see.

Dominions Son

@REP

I personally feel that anyone who commits a racially motivated crime should be punished not only for the crime but for the reason they committed the crime, regardless of the perpetrator's race.


I disagree. That is edging into the realm of thought crime. That is not a good place to go unless you want to live in a police state.

Replies:   REP
Dominions Son

@REP

Again, I disagree. It doesn't matter what 'they' say. Anyone who commits an act of Racism, regardless of their race, is a Racist.


Personally, I agree with you. That doesn't negate the fact that there are many social justice/anti-racism activists who say exactly what I described.

The this for example see this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/reverse-racism-isnt-a-thing_us_55d60a91e4b07addcb45da97

richardshagrin

Merriam-Webster online
Dictionary

racism
noun | rac·ism |ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-
Simple Definition of racism
: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race
: the belief that some races of people are better than others
Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary
Full Definition of racism
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
: racial prejudice or discrimination
end quote
It appears the first use of racism was in 1933.

In my opinion not all comments about inherent superiority of a particular race are racial prejudice or discrimination. Natives of Africa tend to be both taller than most other races (Watusi) and shorter (Pigmy). Their race is superior in variation in height.
White skin may be selected for in parts of the world with limited amounts of sunshine as Vitamin D is acquired by exposing the skin to sun. Melanin in the skin tends to restrict the absorption of Vitamin D. Norwegians tend to be "whiter" than other Europeans. In their environment they are superior in obtaining Vitamin D needed for good health.
Are these comments "racist"?

Not all comments about race are racist, or observers of track and field events (races) would be racist.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Thus, a white American rock start building off elements from hip hop music is cultural appropriation,


I thought hip hop was about ghettos and criminals, not about race!

Ernest Bywater

@Bondi Beach

Ernest, this is important. Were the dots "excessive" because there were too many of them, or because each one was larger than regulation size?


From what i was told, about twenty years ago, by an Aboriginal artist in a remote Queensland community, the use of dots in traditional arts was to cover something not allowed to be shown to the person viewing it yet, and they would only take up less than 5% of what was drawn. While what is being sold as traditional Aboriginal arts now is 95% dots, more like using dots to make a picture. Thus it isn't anything like traditional paintings or artwork at all. That being so, it's hard to say it's stolen from them.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

According to what I found on Wikipedia, the problem isn't really excessiveness.


This is traditional artwork:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yankee_Hat_art-MJC.jpg

This is what's being palmed off as traditional artwork and is a style invented by a white, according to the full blood Aboriginal who told me:

http://australianativeart.com/

http://art-educ4kids.weebly.com/aboriginal-art-and-patterning.html

The theme is often traditional, but it's not painted in the traditional way.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

I don't think I've ever met a civil rights activist who goes out, seeking to inspire violence, since the violence is usually directed at them!


Sadly, CW, I have. They stand well back in the crowd, start the violence, and then fade. They figure any publicity is good publicity. Also, with some matters the media side with the trouble making activists and look for ways to put the blame on others.

Many years back an anti-uranium activist at a rally against yellow cake exports threw a half brick at a motorcycle cop escorting the truck. First reports were live and showed the thrown half brick coming out of the crowd, later reports only showed the now unconscious cop riding his bike into the crowd of protestors.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

If the perpetrator of a crime admits or if it can be proven that he committed the crime because the victim was Black, White, Asian, Jewish, Muslum, or whatever, then that is very different from the realm of thought crime.

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Dominions Son


You're the one telling some one to shut up, I've done no such thing.

You've effectively shut down several ongoing constructive conversations until every participant convinces you, on a point by point basis, that every technique they employ to make their stories easier to read is 100% effective, a clearly impossible objective since writing isn't like baking a cake.

I didn't deride the author of the article. I instead stated that I understood where they were coming from, but thought they were oversimplifying things, as you can't change human behavior, and expecting parity is unrealistic. However, I've been fighting upstream combating all the 'cultural appropriation' is a grand conspriacy against the white man theme that's been running rampant in this discussion. Frankly, I'm getting sick of people trying to control other people's discussions. I don't mind anyone asking questions or offering their opinions, but when they insist that everyone else halt their discussions to cater to their preconceptions (that editing for brevity is useless, or that 'cultural issues' is a buzz word for 'White hatred'), I have a hard time NOT speaking out.

I'm obsessive, writing multiple messages to make a variety of points, but you've been nothing but manipulative, trying to shut down entire conversations.

Make all the racist comments you want, after all, you're not entirely wrong, but allow others to offer their opinions too, instead of shouting down any alternative voices.

Personally, I'd have loved to discuss the value in restraining plots with you, but I'm so fed up with your techniques, I'm about to quit visiting the forum entirely until you fade from the scene. (I've done this before, as my medical disability makes me susceptible to common stresses, making me a common target of online bullies since I'm such an easy target.)

No discussion is worth this much vile and belittlement! I can talk to anyone on this board on a one-to-one basis, I don't need your non-constructive abuse.

Replies:   Ross at Play
REP

@Ernest Bywater

Unfortunately, that is the type of so called "unbiased" news reports we get here in the US.

If you recall the fall of the US Embassy in Iran back in 1979, before the Embassy fell a team of US journalist filmed the demonstrators setting a full size US flag on fire. Where do think the Iranians got that flag. It's not the type of thing you can go into an Iranian store and buy. Some years later, I read about one of the US media people admitting to giving the flag to the Iranians so they could film it being burned.

Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

While what is being sold as traditional Aboriginal arts now is 95% dots, more like using dots to make a picture.

Joking here ... to show the absurdity of SOME claims made ...
Then it looks like THEY are guilty of cultural approbation - ripping off but claiming as their own, a style of painting by pointillist movement (best known Georges Seurat), part of the French culture of the very late 19th Century.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

Does anyone else hear an echo in here? :-)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Does anyone else hear an echo in here? :-)

I disappeared after posting it, so never noticed the duplication (my computer froze, then went into overdrive when it woke up resulting in a half-finished post).

Good news, though, DS and I made up. He admitted he's been having a tough time of late (no details) and was being purposefully antagonistic (in the level of his responses, at least). Since I'm going through something similar (why I blew up at him), I can relate. Everyone has bad days/weeks.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

Good news, though, DS and I made up.

I echo your sentiments (for DS to hear). I can relate to that too. If you see my other thread, 'Do your characters infest your mood?', you'll gather I've had something going on with me too in recent days.

For the long term, I will reset the tone of my exchanges with him to informed polite debates on issues and/or light hearted banter.

To DS: I ASK ONLY THIS: Will you please try to limit the NUMBER of times you pursue any one point? If you've made the same point half-a-dozen times and they don't understand, please end your side of an exchange with, "There's no point in me continuing if you will not listen"?

I WILL Thumbs Down this post to Lazeez - to WITHDRAW my previous Thumbs Down. :-)

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


Good news, though, DS and I made up.


I echo your sentiments (for DS to hear). I can relate to that too. If you see my other thread, 'Do your characters infest your mood?', you'll gather I've had something going on with me too in recent days.

For the long term, I will reset the tone of my exchanges with him to informed polite debates on issues and/or light hearted banter.

To DS: I ASK ONLY THIS: Will you please try to limit the NUMBER of times you pursue any one point? If you've made the same point half-a-dozen times and they don't understand, please end your side of an exchange with, "There's no point in me continuing if you will not listen"?

I WILL Thumbs Down this post to Lazeez - to WITHDRAW my previous Thumbs Down. :-)

EDITS TO ADD:
1. Withdrawal of Thumbs Down has been done.
2, My technical issues causing occasional "echoes" are an internet connection that drops out and requires a reset about every half hour, and sometimes needing to stop working to recharge my laptop. It happens.

Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

To DS: I ASK ONLY THIS: Will you please try to limit the NUMBER of times you pursue any one point?


I'll try, but that's something I struggle with even in face to face interactions.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Agreed, and very grateful.

I do not believe in promising to do something if I cannot be sure of succeeding. :-)

For my part, I'll try too. :-)

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Actually, the "cultural appropriation" movement in the US started on college campuses and was directed mostly at "ethnic" themed parties by frats and white students adopting "ethnic" fashions.


This is my understanding of its origin, and part of what I previously called the "sane" side of the "cultural appropriation" movement. It was about unthinking, uncaring, often inappropriate, and thoughtless perpetuation of negative racial sterotypes. So a bunch of (white) drunken frat boys dressed up "like a bunch of Mexicans" complete with Sombreros is an example cultural appropriation. There was no shortage of valid examples of such things going on, in particular when it comes to the things many (drunken) fraternities came up with. As such those initiatives gained traction on college campuses, and migrated from campus to campus, and as the initiative grew people began to get speaking engagements to come to various campuses to "Discuss" the issue, and it started getting more significant media attention. Which is where it started to grow. But since people were getting paid to speak on this issue, it had become a cottage industry, and they're not just going to "go out of business" quietly when their objective is achieved. So the definition and area of concern is grown, and expanded to perhaps encompass other issues(which also allows speakers from those other "areas" of concern to "cross-pollinate" into their respective fields as well).

There is a professional grievance industry in the United States(and much of the "Western World" for that matter, in particular when it comes to speaking engagements on college campuses and a number of Fortune 500 companies, as they're always interested in hearing tales of woe from "representatives of disadvantaged communities.")

To the extent it's about making money, it's about drumming up donations for the activists pushing it.


Agreed, see above. It's basically the opposite of the curse of Tantalus, only the people being "Served" by the "speaker"/activist are the ones in the proverbial role of Tantalus. The objective being discussed by said speaker/activist will not be achieved so long as they can help it because the moment their "customer" can get a drink, or eat the advertised fruit, they're out of business.

So we either get a never-ending slight-of-hand trick going on where they happily tread water on the issue and keep asking for more money/influence. Or they'll continually move the proverbial goal post to make sure it is never reached, because they'll continually redefine the objective. It also helps when they're considered a "subject matter expert" on their particular issue(as an individual or organization), and can just make appeals to their own authority as experts on the matter to further perpetuate the cycle.

Not_a_ID

@REP

Only the feelings of the victim matters, not the actual facts.


You are wrong. Racism is about the Racist's acts and actions, not the emotions of the Racist's victims.


You're both right. And it doesn't only extend to racism. It extends to things like stalking as well. The way things are defined currently, or otherwise applied in practice by various groups and activists. You can have someone be a "victim of stalking" without actually having a stalker.

Likewise, many activists make it possible for someone to become "a victim of racism" without their encountering a racist, although that example is a lot more rare. Because DS is correct, many of the activists don't care about the facts, their interest is in the emotion, and the headlines that emotion can present. So if they can find a person who feels that they are a victim of a certain thing, then they must be a victim of that thing.

I don't think those activists comprise a majority of people who engage in those activities, but they certainly are the most visible, as they're usually the first one to show up, and they're usually the loudest, which means they tend to draw the attention of the press. They also tend to be the agitators that make protests turn ugly.

(For other fun screwed up situations, there are "campus rape studies" out there that report women as victims of rape or sexual assault even when the woman herself doesn't view herself as being one. This is often achieved by including the criteria that if the woman was intoxicated at the time of the sexual advance being made, they're incapable of giving consent. Which makes any sexual advances that happen from that point on a sexual assault/rape. Evidently, the intoxication state of their partner is irrelevant, as is the woman's part in their own intoxication. But it stands to reason, that by that same criteria, if an intoxicated woman cannot give consent, an intoxicated man cannot give consent either. Which means there is a lot of mutual rape happening on college campuses across America and the World. How both parties can both be the rapist and the victim at the same time baffles me, but hey, whatever gets them more grant money "for further studies.")

racism isn't about bias, it's about power



Wrong again. Racism has everything to do with the bias of the Racist. The power wielded by the Racist may help them avoid retribution; it doesn't make them right.


Depends on who is using the word. The word has been seeing a lot of over-use over the past 10 years in the United States in particular. It's the ultimate verbal hand-grenade, and it also works reasonably well on discussion forums online, but far better in person. Nobody wants to be called racist, in particular, no white person wants to be found in a face to face confrontation with a racial minority where they're being accused of being racist if they can avoid it, particularly in this modern age of social media.

As such, the "racist" card gets played freely, and often, and usually is used to shutdown a discussion before any meaningful discussion can happen. It has very much become a power play, and the word has very much become about power.

This is why they say minorities can't be racist.



Again, I disagree. It doesn't matter what 'they' say. Anyone who commits an act of Racism, regardless of their race, is a Racist.


But there is no shortage of people, as DS alluded to(and later linked to on the HuffPost), that do openly claim that a racial minority group cannot, by definition, be racist. Reality(and personal experience agrees) says otherwise, but there is no shortage of people who chose to ignore that matter.

So it doesn't matter if we both agree that a person can be racist towards others, regardless of what their own racial identity may be. The problem is there is a large number of other people, who hold a lot of (U.S.) media influence(almost entirely left-wing), that disagree with us on that point. Those who disagree with us on that will often likewise be more than happy to call you racist for insinuating that reverse-racism is even possible in concept, never-mind any claims of it actually happening.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Not_a_ID

Nobody wants to be called racist, in particular, no white person wants to be found in a face to face confrontation with a racial minority where they're being accused of being racist if they can avoid it, particularly in this modern age of social media.


I'm white and I've been the victim of racism several times. Whites aren't the only perpetrators.

AJ

Ross at Play
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


I'm white and I've been the victim of racism several times. Whites aren't the only perpetrators.


Trust me, avoid to Malaysia if you don't want to be a victim of racism and you are white, black, Chinese, Indian, ...

But the racial hostility there is nothing really, compared to the religious hostility of the Malays towards non-Muslims. (The Malays are the indigenous inhabitants, brown skin, 70% of the population, and all required BY LAW to be Muslims).

Not_a_ID

@awnlee jawking

I'm white and I've been the victim of racism several times. Whites aren't the only perpetrators.


I'm in that club as well. To the point of being asked to please leave by certain individuals, and the explicitly given justification being that I was white while nobody else present was.

As nobody spoke up contrary to those jackals, including the guys I'd been talking to up until that point, I left.

By far my favorite line to ever hear in person while in the Navy was a pair of guys(who were black) loudly protest that another black guy was NOT black. Admittedly, the person in question was rather odd to say the least, but his parents seemed alright to me. Having met them briefly when he first reported onboard during a weekend, IIRC. Father was a Pastor as I recall, can't get much more stereotypical (non-thug) black than that, I'd think. But I guess he was too (upper) middle-class in background for the rest of them.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

I'm white and I've been the victim of racism several times. Whites aren't the only perpetrators.


Agreed, but there is a very vocal segment among social justice/anti-racism activists in the US that claim that only whites can be racist. That segment gets the majority of the media attention.

Replies:   REP
REP

@awnlee jawking

I don't recall being a victim of racism. However, back in the late 60's, our wonderful Government decided, due to the civil right's movement, to practice what we at the time called reverse racism.

The Government mandated that employers bring the racial balance of their employees into alignment with the local racial balance. This could have been done via attrition, but the Government set a deadline for implementation of the mandate that prevented that option from being used.

I knew one woman who was laid-off so her employer could give her job to a black woman. A lot of people lost their jobs because of this mandate. Her ex-coworkers let her know that her replacement was not qualified for the position and failed to perform the duties of the position. The employer would not let the woman go, because they could not find a qualified black woman to replace her. The ex-coworkers had to take-on the extra workload, and the layed-off woman got to stand in the employment line.

REP

@Dominions Son

Agreed, but there is a very vocal segment among social justice/anti-racism activists in the US that claim that only whites can be racist. That segment gets the majority of the media attention.


Very true! It is also why many of us are upset with the media and the social justice/anti-racism activists.

sejintenej

Whilst on a company course in London UK I happened to speak to hostel staff in their language, Spanish, (largely because their English was poor but also out of politeness). The company was ask to find me lodgings elsewhere for the stated reason that I could speak Spanish! The company were as surprised as me.

I was the beneficiary of a form of racism by the USA consular service; I had gone to their embassy in a west African nation and was immediately moved to the head of a very long queue of coloured applicants. To me that is a form of racism.

In another west African country I needed to see a particular minister and was jumped to the head of the queue; reverse racism again..

Dominions Son

@sejintenej

Whilst on a company course in London UK I happened to speak to hostel staff in their language, Spanish, (largely because their English was poor but also out of politeness). The company was ask to find me lodgings elsewhere for the stated reason that I could speak Spanish! The company were as surprised as me.


The staff was uncomfortable knowing you would be able to tell when they were secretly saying nasty things about their customers.

Thing that could cause the employer problems if the customers found out about it.

Replies:   REP
Ross at Play

@sejintenej

I was the beneficiary of a form of racism by the USA consular service; I had gone to their embassy in a west African nation and was immediately moved to the head of a very long queue of coloured applicants. To me that is a form of racism.

In another west African country I needed to see a particular minister and was jumped to the head of the queue; reverse racism again.

POSSIBLY, they were instances of extra courtesy being shown to Americans over locals.
OR, a local custom of extra hospitality to guests. Muslims can often be very nice in that way.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  sejintenej
Not_a_ID

@Ross at Play

POSSIBLY, they were instances of extra courtesy being shown to Americans over locals.
OR, a local custom of extra hospitality to guests. Muslims can often be very nice in that way.


Or on the basis of "You don't seem to be from around here" he was shuffled forward on the assumption he had a different kind of business to attend to than the locals did. Business that either probably didn't necessarily involve the same staff members, or might give them a brief change of pace.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Not_a_ID


he was shuffled forward on the assumption he had a different kind of business to attend to than the locals did. Business that either probably didn't necessarily involve the same staff members,


Exactly. Generally, the only occasions where U.S. citizens and locals would be waiting for the same service would be (a) passing the security check to enter the facility, and (b) seeking a notarial service.

Locals aren't going to be in the passport renewal line, and U.S. citizens generally aren't in the immigrant or non-immigrant visa line.

Exceptions: local adult with U.S. citizen minor; U.S. citizen filing an immigrant visa petition for a relative; the U.S. citizen is a resident locally and well and favorably known to the post; the post is so small everyone is in the same line until sorted out or recognized for a different service, as you point out.

Of course, it may in fact have been the [implied] unfair priority treatment, but that is unlikely.

NB: There hasn't been a U.S. Consular Service since 1924, when the Rogers Act merged it and the Diplomatic Service and created the U.S. Foreign Service. (Fun fact: the consuls wanted the prestige the diplomats had, and the diplomats wanted the $$ the consuls earned, since at the time diplomats were mostly self-financing.)

There is one U.S. embassy and any number (from 0 to n) of consular posts in a foreign country, along with any number of cultural centers and CIA installations with inadequate security.

bb

REP

@Dominions Son

True, but I think they were more worried about what he might say to them that would cause dissension and labor problems.

sejintenej
Updated:

@Ross at Play


I was the beneficiary of a form of racism by the USA consular service; I had gone to their embassy in a west African nation and was immediately moved to the head of a very long queue of coloured applicants. To me that is a form of racism.

POSSIBLY, they were instances of extra courtesy being shown to Americans over locals.

OR, a local custom of extra hospitality to guests. Muslims can often be very nice in that way.


I didn't write that I am a UK citizen and according to the notice everyone in the queue was applying for a visa to enter the USA, in my case for unpaid work (at that time it was a B1B2 visa which had no expiry date.) The person who pulled me out of the queue was white and had a US accent.

As for Muslims I had occasion to be on the "other" side in negotiations with some influential West African Muslims. The Chairman would quietly inform us that he and some colleagues had to leave the meeting for a few minutes and about half the board would quietly leave for prayers. They were very nice people to deal with though some other Muslims in that country have proven themselves very nasty.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@sejintenej

I didn't write that I am a UK citizen and according to the notice everyone in the queue was applying for a visa to enter the USA, in my case for unpaid work (at that time it was a B1B2 visa which had no expiry date.) The person who pulled me out of the queue was white and had a US accent.


No question it may have been straight preferential treatment based on passport, if not skin color. Also, a UK citizen would be a quick and easy visa encounter compared to one with a local almost anywhere in Africa.

bb

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I ASK ONLY THIS: Will you please try to limit the NUMBER of times you pursue any one point? If you've made the same point half-a-dozen times and they don't understand, please end your side of an exchange

I've been a perpetrator of that kind of response, typically when I'm not sure others get the point I'm trying to make, so I'll repeat it over and over in different words--a useless enterprise if they didn't get it the first dozen time--as they're typically making the point they really don't care.

He was questioning whether cutting length really benefits a story, while the rest of us discussing which techniques worked and which didn't. I'd have participated if he's opened a new discussion where we could honestly discuss his concerns about how much to edit--as I've had my own issues with that, but he wouldn't quit shouting on people unresponsive because they were discussing something different.

It's not an uncommon scenario. You're trying to bring up a side-concern, like apple rot, and everyone else is concentrating on orange spots. You need to target you message so it gets the attention it deserves. Shouting at people who aren't listening doesn't advance anyone's knowledge.

But again, that's more my issue than his, and I suspect most of us have been guilty of it. I'll add this, though, Switch was excellent in making very specific suggestions, which helped both camps.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

I'm white and I've been the victim of racism several times. Whites aren't the only perpetrators.

I agree, but there's often a huge disconnect when someone who's been privileged all their lives, suddenly decries those who've been forced--despite their best intentions--to scrimp and save and face outright discriminations. It's one thing to face discrimination occasionally, and another to face it every day of your life. I've seen both sides of the equation, and I try to remember that, for all my issues, I've had a pretty easy life and people have often bent over backward for me. For that, I'm thankful and I try to pay it forward (in thoughts, if not always in actions).

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

I agree, but there's often a huge disconnect when someone who's been privileged all their lives, suddenly decries those who've been forced--despite their best intentions--to scrimp and save and face outright discriminations. It's one thing to face discrimination occasionally, and another to face it every day of your life.


There are white people who face that kind of day to day struggle, and daily discrimination. They are usually referred to as poor white trash.

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

By far my favorite line to ever hear in person while in the Navy was a pair of guys(who were black) loudly protest that another black guy was NOT black.

That's a constant refrain in some quarters. It's partially a focus issue (we need to stand together and resist the pressures to shut up and sit down), but it's partly a cultural thing. I was discussing the conflict between American blacks and American-Jamaicans, who have an entirely different work ethic. As a result, while most American blacks harp on how no one takes them seriously, the Jamaicans get along with everyone, share the same values and are willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals (not that blacks don't want the same things, but they just take a more round-about route getting there).

However, that conflict between the two groups is long-standing (Jamaicans were taking the jobs that blacks wanted back in the 1800s since the English system dictated that only the eldest son could inherit anything, so every other ambitious family member would either head to America, since they it cost so much to return to England.)

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


I suspect most of us have been guilty of it


Yes, but we would not be any good at the things we are trying to do unless we were inclined to get overly passionate about things.

I've had this idea that perhaps we could have a code word - the kind of thing George O'Dowd regrets not having.

In future if any of my posts include, "I cannot continue now. An octopus is attacking one of my cats," it will actually be my suggestion someone may have reached the point where they said they would make one last complete description of their views, and then drop it.

There's more than one way to skin a octopus. :)

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Ross at Play

... AND ANOTHER THING ...

But I should first admit to being a dark shade of grey at times ...

This is something we could all do (seeking more calm and focused debates) when it feels like we're on one side of the 'line of control' in Kashmir, and the other side has started using live artillery.
We could write a detailed post of our opinions starting with - not second, not third, but FIRST - a list of all things we believe our ennemi de jour agrees with. Then add any points we want to add as constructive contributions to the exchange, and finally the points we disagree on (with what we think others are saying).

If you then get posts directed at you containing sentence long streams of capital letters, that's when to consider using the Thumbs Down button.

I BEG Lazeez to start using the "sin bin" ("penalty box" or whatever). I think he should to protect the (profits of the) site!

This is what SCARES THE HELL OUT OF ME ...

What if a new writer to the site came across my thread on "Eliminating excess words, not why or when, but how?" I guess many would be VERY interested: it is one of the more difficult skills to develop, with no simple guidelines for how to do it. (Hopefully they already understand the why and when to do that are separate and EVEN MORE difficult skills they should be seeking to develop).

WHAT WOULD THEY THINK IF THEY SAW THE SHIT POSTED ON THAT THREAD?
{stated as matter of fact, with feelings of forgiveness towards those who have agreed they went a bit to far that time}

Do you think those writers would stay at SoL if they find ANOTHER SITE where they do not need to wade through masses of rubbish to find the gems (and thanks again to SB) that may really help them?

samuelmichaels

@Ross at Play

WHAT WOULD THEY THINK IF THEY SAW THE SHIT POSTED ON THAT THREAD?
{stated as matter of fact, with feelings of forgiveness towards those who have agreed they went a bit to far that time}

Do you think those writers would stay at SoL if they find ANOTHER SITE where they do not need to wade through masses of rubbish to find the gems (and thanks again to SB) that may really help them?

Any sufficiently discussion group will generate flame and flame wars, given enough time. This forum is, on the whole, rather more polite than normal.

Ross at Play

@samuelmichaels

This forum is, on the whole, rather more polite than normal.

I do not know, but I believe you.
I am perfectly happy there ARE flames here, it's just the wars that never end that piss me off.
Still, it won't stop me thinking the average number of brain cells may be higher than normal, and we are capable of a lot better than normal!
It won't stop me trying to offer constructive ideas about how me might achieve that either!

awnlee jawking

@samuelmichaels

This forum is, on the whole, rather more polite than normal.


I agree. I've moderated a number of forums in my time and I think Lazeez is doing a good job in steering between letting people vent but stomping on outright abuse.

AJ

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I BEG Lazeez to start using the "sin bin" ("penalty box" or whatever). I think he should to protect the (profits of the) site!

Instead of a "Sin Bin" (where someone drops a quarter every time they use a naughty word), if writers lost a tenth of a point on their scores every time they bitched about scoring, it would likely curtail the discussions rather abruptly.

Note: Just teasing, Laz. This isn't a serious suggestion!

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


if writers lost a tenth of a point on their scores every time they bitched about scoring, it would likely curtail the discussions rather abruptly.

Note: Just teasing, Laz. This isn't a serious suggestion!


My "sin bin" idea was a sports metaphor, to be like rugby and ice hockey players temporarily banned from the game for particularly foul tackles. As I understand it, Lazeez has been happy with how that encourages players to follow his rules of conduct.

My "bitch box" idea was a monetary fine for everyone who bitches about scoring.

BUT I like your idea much better. He should hit those whingers where it REALLY hurts - in their scores.

Note: Not teasing, Laz. I seriously support CW's suggestion!

richardshagrin

For some complainers their scores might become negative numbers.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

For some complainers their scores might become negative numbers.


what do you mean might for some it's sure to happen, due to the frequency of the complaints.

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