Forum: Author Hangout

Outside (after the question mark) if the question is dialog, inside if the question is not, so the first example you used is correct since it is dialog.

Reluctant Sir's response is correct. However he overlooked addressing the other case.

If the dialogue is a question and the quoted text is not a question, then the structure changes slightly.

The dialogue is within double quotes ("). Therefore, the quoted text must be enclosed using a different symbol. The common symbol used is the single quote ('). The result is shown below.

"Did you hear him say 'The dog ran down the street.'?"

Personally, I would rewrite the dialog to avoid a string of 4 punctuation marks. For example:

"I heard him say 'The dog ran down the street.' What did you hear?"

"Did you hear him say 'The dog ran down the street.'?"

Actually, there is no period. It should be:

"Did you hear him say 'The dog ran down the street'?"

"Did you hear him say 'The dog ran down the street'?"

Even if what was quoted was a question as in:

"Did you hear him ask 'Did the dog run down the street'?"

Only one ?

That's my understanding too, based on British English.

The strongest rule is that there's only one closing punctuation mark.

The second strongest rule is that the dialogue punctuation takes priority over the quotation punctuation.

AJ

When I look at dialog written by myself and other authors, including you, the author always adds punctuation in the dialog. The dog ran down the street is quoted dialog and should be punctuated accordingly.

Even the OP's example of dialog contains punctuation within the double quotes, and no one objected to placing closing punctuation in the example. Why now?

Even the OP's example of dialog contains punctuation within the double quotes, and no one objected to placing closing punctuation in the example. Why now?

We went beyond that simple example — to a quote of a dialogue within a dialogue. As separate dialogues they would each have punctuation within the quotes. But when there are two punctuations (one for each dialogue) then the rule is to only have one.

So in the first one, you drop the period in the quoted dialogue.
In the second, you drop the question mark in the quoted dialogue question.

Citing a relatively good formulation of the rule from YourDictionary.com (no idea how good the site is, but the rule seems accurate):

In both American English and British English, when it's part of the quote, all punctuation goes inside the closing quotation marks. This includes commas, periods, question marks, and exclamation points. Punctuation that belongs to the sentence goes outside the quotation marks.

then the rule is to only have one.

I have never seen that rule. Where can I find it.

I have never seen that rule. Where can I find it.

I was looking for the double question mark rule and couldn't find it. I wasn't sure which one was deleted when I made my post.

I have never seen that rule. Where can I find it.

Okay, I found one. https://www.unr.edu/writing-speaking-center/student-resources/writing-speaking-resources/dialogue-punctuation#:~:text=If%20the%20sentence%20containing%20the,outside%20of%20the%20quotation%20marks.&text=Did%20the%20teacher%20say%2C%20"The%20symbol%20goes%20here"%3F

If the sentence containing the dialogue is a question, then the question mark goes outside of the quotation marks.

Example

Did the teacher say, "The symbol goes here"?

So there's no period after "here."

Now if that were a question, there would not be a question mark there either (only the one outside the ending quote).

Okay. I agree with no period.

However, their example was - Did the teacher say, "The symbol goes here"?

I would like to see how your source would punctuate its example if the quoted text was a question and if the example was written as dialog because the section titled Question Inside of Quotation Marks states that when a question is enclosed in quotes the question should end in a question mark.

For example: Should the dialog punctuation be - The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here'?" or should the dialog punctuation be - The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'?"

For those rare occasions when both the quoted words and the sentence are questions, put the question mark inside the quotation marks.

Thank you. That's what I remembered, but I couldn't find a place to cite.

The problem with the references that you and Switch Blade have referenced is, they do not address the example I created. The examples used in the references contain only a single text string of quoted text. My example uses a text string of quoted text within a text string of quoted text. In my opinion, this is different situation that is not addressed by the references. However, let's breakdown the following dialog using the referenced rules.

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'?"

First consider 'Does the symbol go here?' This text string is punctuated correctly according to your references.

Next consider - The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, (quoted text)?" This text string is punctuated correctly according to your references.

Now replace (quoted text) with the actual text. You get - The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'?"

I am not saying this is correct. What I am saying is the references do not use complex examples like the one above, and they have not evaluated dialog containing quoted text within quoted text.

I sent an email to the University of Nevada, Reno that created the article about punctuating dialog. In the email, I asked about the proper punctuation of my example. I doubt that I will get a response before tomorrow, if ever.

Perhaps I should also submit my question to Grammerly.

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'?"

The reference addressed that with:

For those rare occasions when both the quoted words and the sentence are questions, put the question mark inside the quotation marks.

So it would be:

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'"

The reference addressed that

I don't think it does. It doesn't cover the outer question being dialogue.

AJ

It doesn't cover the outer question being dialogue.

Sure it does. It says:

No matter what, don't use two question marks:

In their example:

Wrong: Did Betsy ask, "What's the number of a good lawyer?"?

Right: Did Betsy ask, "What's the number of a good lawyer?"

just change it to:

Wrong: "Did Betsy ask, 'What's the number of a good lawyer?'?"

Right: "Did Betsy ask, 'What's the number of a good lawyer?'"

Right: "Did Betsy ask, 'What's the number of a good lawyer?'"

The way I was taught, it should be: "Did Betsy ask, 'What's the number of a good lawyer'?"

The sentence punctuation is more important than the quotation punctuation.

AJ

the quoted words and the sentence

No it didn't.

Look at the example in your reference. The sentence is not being considered a quote.

A sentence can be written that is a question but not a quote and the sentence can contain a quote that is also a question that is at the end of the quote.

Look at the example in your reference. The sentence is not being considered a quote.

This is the example:

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'?"

and

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'"

The first being wrong and the second being right.

I'm not sure what you mean by "The sentence is not being considered a quote."

"Did the teacher ask?" is dialogue from the man. "Does the symbol go here?" is the teacher's dialogue he's quoting in his question. Both are questions (the outer quote and the inner quote).

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'"

Not what I wrote. The example I wrote had the question mark between the single quote and the double quote.

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here'?"

"Did the teacher ask?" is dialogue from the man. "Does the symbol go here?" is the teacher's dialogue he's quoting in his question. Both are questions (the outer quote and the inner quote).

Yes, I agree. So if you insert the teacher's dialog in the appropriate location of the man's dialog, you get:

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'?"

That is what you said was wrong.

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here'?"

That's where Awnlee put the question mark. I'm not sure if it goes before or after the single quote.

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'?"

That is what you said was wrong.

It is wrong. You don't use two question marks. I just don't remember which one is removed.

What I DO know is that one of the purposes of correct punctuation is to give the reader a tool to read what the author intended.

The purpose of correct punctuation seems to be to perpetuate what the majority have done before.

Punctuation is riddled with inconsistencies and illogicalities.

AJ

Punctuation is riddled with inconsistencies

Not really.

With the exception of the Oxford comma, the punctuation rules are black and white. And the part of the Oxford comma that is "inconsistent" is a style issue, not a punctuation rule. The punctuation rule simply has something to do with the meaning of the sentence changing if the comma is there or absent. Unless it causes confusion, the punctuation rule is that you can have it or not.

The other "inconsistencies" are style issues and regional issues. Whether you put the period inside or outside the double quote is a regional issue. But in your region, the rule is black and white. All the other "inconsistencies" are style issues. How do you show interrupted speech or trailing off speech? What does the ellipsis look like? Stuff like that.

And I agree with Keet that the purpose of punctuation is to make the reading clear.

How about,
"When the teacher asked, 'The symbol goes where?', was that a rhetorical question?"

In my opinion, that is correct.

I'm not sure the comma should be after "asked" though. "Teacher asked" is a dialogue tag for the outer question.

you don't use two question marks.

If you are referring to your reference's remark about never using 2 question marks, you need to realize that their example contained only one question.

I agree with the remark as it applies to the example provided. However my example has 2 questions.

Your reference also said that when a question is enclosed in quotes, a question mark should be placed before the closing quote.

Your reference also said that when a question is enclosed in quotes, a question mark should be placed before the closing quote.

It should, as in: "Where are you?" (not "Where are you"?)

But the conversation was when two question marks appear side-by-side. When there is a quoted question inside a question, as in: "…'…?'?" In that case, you drop one of the question marks. I don't remember which one, but you definitely don't have both side-by-side.

Not really.

Sometimes a question mark concludes a sentence, other times it doesn't. That's an inconsistency.

Anyone who's written computer code knows how awful the punctuation rules for English are.

AJ

Sometimes a question mark concludes a sentence, other times it doesn't. That's an inconsistency.

It's not inconsistent if it's done the same every time. When the rule says it should be there, it's there. When the rule says it should not be there, like with the two question marks side-by-side, then the same one is not there.

I never said punctuation was easy or straightforward.

It's not inconsistent if it's done the same every time.

But it's not - sometimes it ends a sentence, other times it doesn't. The exclamation mark is the same.

AJ

sometimes it ends a sentence, other times it doesn't.

The conditions that drop the question mark are always the same. The punctuation rule tells you when the question mark is required, when it's not, and where it goes.

At least that's my understanding. I'm surely not a punctuation guru. And I can't even find out if it's:

"…'…?'"
or
"…'…'?"

I believe it's the first. I believe the question mark is required for the quoted question, but the rule says it also is used as the question mark for the second question.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no rule that addresses the situation shown in the sentence I created, at least I haven't seen one. If you forgot what I created, the sentence I created is a tag line followed by dialog that is a question. Within the dialog, there is a quote at the end of the dialog that is a question.

As far as I am concerned, until someone can show me such a rule, we are all using multiple rules that apply to simple dialog sentences. The fact that the quote's end punctuation is next to the dialog's end punctuation may affect how the sentence is punctuated, but none of us has a rule the supports what we each believe that effect is.

So, I plan to end my participation in this thread for it is going nowhere.

I think it's obvious why AIs stick to simple sentences ;-)

AJ

I think it's obvious why AIs stick to simple sentences ;-)

The more I think about the two-question dialogue, the more I realize I would never write that. I would make the second question an indirect quote so the question mark wouldn't be an issue.

"Did she really ask, 'How big is your dick?'?"

I'd probably write: "Did she really ask you how big your dick is?"

That gels with what I was taught. A quotation missing its closing punctuation is still a quotation, but a sentence missing its closing punctuation isn't a sentence.

AJ

In general, whenever referring to another conversation, report, text, etc., you'd us 'alternating' quotation marks. Thus your example is correct, in that regard, except that the quoted text (in dialogue, or anything else) goes inside the main dialogue, including any question or exclamation marks.

So in your example, at least in terms of spoken dialogue, the text would read:

"Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'"

Note the inside quote ends before the outer quote, so that's a single quote mark, followed by a double-quote mark. Or for you Brits, who often reverse the order:

'Did the teacher ask, "Does the symbol go here?"'

Combining the single and double quotes freaks a lot of newbie authors out, so I'm guessing that's most of the confusion here. But there's only ONE final punctuation mark, not a descending series of quotation marks!

However, a much more reliable source than Grammerly, which is often contradictory or unclear, is Grammar Girl (i.e. Mignon Fogarty), who often deals with these issues during her weekly broadcasts/posts, and ensures that everything is crystal clear, so she doesn't confuse anyone. So check out grammargirl.com, and search her history of posts, if you ever have any grammar questions.

@Switch Blayde:

For those rare occasions when both the quoted words and the sentence are questions, put the question mark inside the quotation marks.

In these questions, as in much of English, the missing second question mark is implied by the first, and is thus, redundant and unnecessary.

It is wrong. You don't use two question marks. I just don't remember which one is removed.

You'd remove the redundant, outer one. One establishes the question was posed, the second merely confuses readers, unnecessarily.

By the way, these continually repeating 'that's not what I was taught, is why I quit following the forum, or ANY writing forum, a long, long time ago. In the end, with these discussion, everyone keeps repeating their opinions, and thus no question is ever resolved.

Combining the single and double quotes freaks a lot of newbie authors out

I read that it's acceptable to leave a space between the single and double quotes for clarity, but I never had the guts to do it.

Since this may be my only opportunity for me to make a comment to you, I have been getting emails supposedly from you about pictures. I let you know that I thought your email may have been hacked due to the emails appearing to come from different people; but you did not respond. If it is you sending pictures to me, remove me from your address list.

When you have a question within a question and both are in quotes, each question should be properly punctuated. That means 2 question marks.

I have been unable to locate a rule that addresses this issue. Are you aware of such a rule? If not, it is just a group of us spouting off about what we think is true.

When you have a question within a question and both are in quotes, each question should be properly punctuated. That means 2 question marks.

I'm 95% sure one of the question marks is dropped. I believe the way Vincent had it is correct, but I can't find it anywhere, even on Grammar Girl.

I get those emails from him to. Not from his email address, but his name.

I still cannot find a reference to a dialogue question ending with a quoted question, but I found this weird grammar thing. Something I would never do.

Question marks replace commas

You might be surprised to know that the question mark, while used exclusively to ask questions, can function in some rather unique situations, the most surprising being its ability to stand in for a comma. Take this sentence, for example:

"Where is Eric's car? and where is he, for that matter?" asked Sarah.

This is a grammatically correct use of the question mark. It might look awkward to some, but the laws of grammar state that when multiple questions are asked in the same sentence, a "?" can be used in place of a comma to indicate multiple questions. This should, however, only be done in works of fiction, primarily in dialogue.

I sent an email to the University of Nevada, Reno that created the article about punctuating dialog. In the email, I asked about the proper punctuation of my example. I doubt that I will get a response before tomorrow, if ever.

Any response? The situation is so unusual it might well be something they've never come across before.

AJ

I have also looked for a rule that defines the proper punctuation for the sentence structure being addressed in the thread. The only rules I found were:

1. A rule that states - when quoted text ends in a question mark, the question mark should always be placed between the last word of the question and the quoted text's closing quote character.

2. A rule that states - when a sentence ends with a quote that ends with a period inside the quote, the period inside the quote should be dropped and the entire sentence's punctuation should follow the closing quote.

It should be noted that the examples used for the above rules were not structured as a quote within a quote.

So if we follow '1' then the quote within a quote example should end with 2 question marks. If we follow '2' then the question mark of the quote within a quote should be dropped and the second question mark retained.

The problem then becomes, following '1' violates '2', and following '2' violates '1'. All of our opinions as to which rule takes precedence is just the poster's opinion without any supporting backup; unless of course, they reference a rule addressing a quoted question within a quoted question.

No response. I agree that my example is unusual and the issue was probably never raised and addressed.

I think I will follow up on my email.

I have also looked for a rule that defines the proper punctuation for the sentence structure being addressed in the thread.

I just found this at: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/47154/how-to-punctuate-a-quoted-question-within-a-question . I don't know how reliable it is.

How would I punctuate the bold portion?

"Who are you?" she asked.

"Wait," I replied, "did you just ask me Who are you?"

I would use the following:

"Wait," I replied, "did you just ask me, 'Who are you'?"

- Comma before the quote
- Quoted with single quotation marks (instead of italics, which I'd consider another option)
- Closing quotation mark before the question mark
- Only one question mark (for my question, not the quoted one)

I actually looks right to me.

So what you are saying is - when we write a story containing dialog, we should not include the dialog's punctuation because the character would not say 'comma', 'semicolon', 'period', question mark', etc.

I actually looks right to me.

The Stack Exchange looks like a blogger site. The site's description indicates it accepts input from multiple sites. Nowhere could I find a statement regarding the qualifications of the people defining how to punctuate a sentence.

Personally, the opinions expressed by that site are not more valid than those expressed in this thread.

Personally, the opinions expressed by that site are not more valid than those expressed in this thread.

Except the members/contributors are supposedly linguists. But I just noticed the second answer (which is different than the 1st):

Here's the correct version:

"Wait," I replied, "did you just ask me, 'Who are you?' "

Some things to notice:
1. The statement being quoted is a question, so you need the question mark in the embedded quotation marks. You don't need a second question mark. A sentence can have only one end punctuation mark.
2. The comma before the embedded quotation, which follows standard format for introducing a quotation.
3. The space between the single and double quotation marks at the end.

If I were to revise this, I would write this: "Wait," I said. "Did you just ask me who I am?"

This is the way I originally thought it would be. The question mark in the quoted text. The ending question mark dropped because you don't want two of them.

And I agree with the way he rewrote it to avoid the problem. I mentioned doing that in an earlier post.

I mentioned doing that in an earlier post.

So did I.

Except the members/contributors are supposedly linguists.

Did you miss the top of the website's page that stated:

Anybody can ask a question

Anybody can answer

The best answers are voted up and rise to the top

In other words, anyone who posted in this thread could go to the website and present their opinion. The website's members, who may not be linguists, would vote on all the opinions.

You need to reconsider you position.

In an earlier post, you said:

... The speaker in the nested quotation didn't speak the question mark, only the words, ...

What that statement means is punctuation should not be included in a quotation if the speaker did not verbally state the name of the punctuation mark. What you need to remember is that in a story the characters' dialogue is a quote. So if we were to comply with your posted comment, authors would not include punctuation marks in their characters' dialog.

In your latest post, you said:

Puncuation is used to make the words more easily understood. When, as in this case, it's not needed, don't use it.

The need for punctuation is defined by a set of rules. One of those rules, provided by the University Writing and Speaking Center of the University of Nevada, Reno stated:

Question Inside of Quotation Marks

With a question mark, the question mark should stay within the quotation marks if it pertains to the quote/dialogue.

Example

"Where do I put the symbol?" Sally asked.

This is because the question is contained within the quote itself.

Based on the above rule, the question mark should be included since it relates to the quote.

Several people have said that there should not be two punctuation marks preceding the end quote of a quotation.

I agree.

Using the example I created in an earlier post:

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'?"

The imbedded quote is:

'Does the symbol go here?'

That quote ends with the single quote symbol, not the question mark. Therefore, the end punctuation of the dialogue is - ?"

The result is the dialogue ends with 4 punctuation symbols - ?'?"

Why?

I have also looked for a rule that defines the proper punctuation

Okay, I think I found one: https://www.thepunctuationguide.com/terminal-points.html#:~:text=Rule%3A%20The%20question%20mark%20(inside,sentence%3B%20no%20additional%20question%20mark.

The third row down in the chart is "Quotation ending with a question mark." The first two columns to its right are "Sentence is a statement" and "Sentence is a question." The examples are identical. In the "Sentence is a question" it says:

The question mark (inside the closing quotation mark) ends the sentence; no additional question mark.

Did you just ask, "Why me?"

Notice the "no additional question mark." It's not:

Did you just ask, "Why me?"?

Now this is a sentence and not dialogue so there is only one set of quotes. To change it so the sentence is dialogue, you would put it in double quotes and then put the quote in single quotes.

But where does the single question mark go?

"Did you just ask, 'Why me?'"
or
"Did you just ask, 'Why me'?"

I think the first one is correct.

Yes ask does signal that the dialog contains a question. However, that does not mean the dialog should not be punctuated appropriately. The rules, regardless of why the rules were created, are the rules governing punctuation, and a question mark is required.

Check the stories posted to SOL and you will find a question mark at the end of questions that are part of dialogue.

I agree with what you said.

The rule you are referring to is titled: Quotation ending in a question mark. The rule addresses how to punctuate a question that is within quote marks. Please note that the title indicates the question mark is part of the quote, and the rule addresses a single question, not a question within a question.

The following sentence contains 2 quotes and each quote is within its respective set of quotation marks. According to the rule you referenced each question within a set of quotation marks requires the quote to end with a question mark in front of the closing quotation mark. The result for my sentence is:

The man asked, "Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'?"

The dialogue the man spoke without quote marks and end punctuation is: Did the teacher ask, 'Does the symbol go here?'

There is no question that the question asked by the teacher is punctuated correctly if the sentence was not a quote. But it is the text that forms a quote, so with the quotation marks and end punctuation added, it looks wrong. But grammatically, it complies with the rules.

In your reference I noticed something interesting in the rule regarding titles that end in a question mark. Look at the far right box of the second rule, which addresses how to punctuate the example if the example is an exclamation. The example shows:

I can't stand Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?!

That example blows the remarks stating a sentence cannot end with 2 punctuation marks out of the water.

On the website it is. I missed that the italics did not appear in my copy/insert. I'll fix that for you, since you seem to have a problem with everything I post.

Regardless of your nitpicking, the example ends in two punctuation marks.

I suggest you try a long walk on a short pier.