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Site Change - Limit on the number of tags a story can have

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

I've made a code change to the stories' tagging mechanism. The updated system will now limit stories to 50 tags (which should be more than enough).

The submission wizard will enforce this limit and the 'Manage Stories' page will too.

Current stories with more than that haven't been affected yet. But I will go through the database and find them. I will notify authors who have stories that have more than this limit about the issue.

Dominions Son

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I have a suggestion, but I don't know if it's feasible or not.

Several categories of tags form natural groups, with a generic tag and several more detailed tags.

The categories I am thinking of are
Science Fiction
Paranormal
Incest
BDSM
Interracial elements.

If you are limiting the number of tags on a story, It might be helpful if a category search on the generic tag would finds stories tagged with a detail tag but not the generic tag.

That way, as an author, If I am writing a story with just a few elements out of the group, I can leave off the generic tag and people searching on the generic tag would still find it.

Take it or leave it, I'm just putting it out there as food for thought.

Crumbly Writer

It's about time you instituted the change, as several authors seem to take it as a challenge to utilize as many tags as possible, even if they're not required for a specific story. I'd reduce the limit even further, at least forcing the authors to select the most essential tags for cataloguing the story, rather than expecting the readers to decipher it themselves after reading 100+ chapters!

20 or 30 tags are more than enough for the majority of stories. For most stories, it really doesn't matter whether it contains an "Oriental Female" (the proper term is "Asian" anyway) or not!

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

For most stories, it really doesn't matter whether it contains an "Oriental Female" (the proper term is "Asian" anyway) or not!


He could go one further on that, certain categories of tags, BDSM, Interracial aren't really appropriate for no-sex stories.

If detail interracial tags are used, at least 2 should be selected.

Moderators handling submitted stories could check for code combinations that seem to be contradictory and give them some additional review. For example, a story tagged: Gay, M/M, Femdom, should be looked at more closely.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  DerAndy
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Moderators handling submitted stories could check for code combinations that seem to be contradictory and give them some additional review. For example, a story tagged: Gay, M/M, Femdom, should be looked at more closely.

Unfortunately, that would require reading the entire submission, as often tags aren't revealed for some time. That would take an inordinate amount of time, and is too much of a burden on already overworked administrators.

Keying tags off one another is a decent idea, but requires coding, which takes time. Limiting tags, though, requires authors to make informed choices no one else would be qualified to make. I prefer offering more tags, but limiting how many can be selected at any one time.

P.S. From my experience, a lot of gay authors tend to hold fairly strong attitudes about women's influence on men, so "Femdom" wouldn't be unrealistic, though I doubt they'd label it as such.

docholladay
Updated:

One side effect of limiting the number of tags is maybe the writers will start looking at how the tags can be combined under one tag. Not saying it will work for all but many times I have thought the tags used could have been combined under one label. But that is just my opinion.

edited to add: I can see if a particular tag is critical to the story's plot causing it to be utilized even when it fits under a more generic tag.

Dominions Son

@docholladay

edited to add: I can see if a particular tag is critical to the story's plot causing it to be utilized even when it fits under a more generic tag.


You are correct, for instance with BDSM, there are distinctly different audiences for Female Dominant and Male Dominant stories.

On the other hand, In my opinion, for most of those cases, you can get away with using the particular tag without using the generic tag.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

I can see if a particular tag is critical to the story's plot causing it to be utilized even when it fits under a more generic tag.

That's especially true for squicks, so readers can avoid stories they don't like, and the author won't garner quite as many 1-bombs. Beyond that, most story have certain essential tags, which describe the overall story itself, others which describe specific subplots, and still others which only cover specific chapters. Many naturally go together, say BDSM and Bondage don't both need to be listed, or you can list incest without listing each separate participant.

You can certainly whittle down a list of 50 or more tags without breaking a sweat, though you might have to compromise on a few. However, if authors put more effort into using appropriate tags, they and the readers would be better served. Sometimes I get exhausted just reading the list of story tags.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

Many naturally go together, say BDSM and Bondage don't both need to be listed, or you can list incest without listing each separate participant.


Take the incest tag for one example. If the participants are just the brother and sister for example the tag could just be bro/sis (or what ever the relationship of the characters), without having to include the incest tag (implied with the bro/sis tag).

Switch Blayde

One tag I don't understand is "consensual."

If you don't have the "non-consent" tag, well, duh, it's consensual.

Replies:   sejintenej
sejintenej

@Switch Blayde

One tag I don't understand is "consensual."

If you don't have the "non-consent" tag, well, duh, it's consensual.


A story can have both elements. If you show the non-consent tag then readers may well think there is never an element of consent (which is likely to be different people or the evolution of a relationship)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@sejintenej

A story can have both elements. If you show the non-consent tag then readers may well think there is never an element of consent (which is likely to be different people or the evolution of a relationship)

That's part of the problem. Authors are now tagging the painfully obvious stuff (when sex isn't rape it's generally consensual), on the off-chance that someone won't guess the story is all pig's blood and gore.

Forcing readers to pick and choose would hopefully get them to make more informed choices ("Eh, that's not really essential, if I include this "squick" tag, it'll have to go.")

DerAndy

@Dominions Son

BDSM, Interracial aren't really appropriate for no-sex stories.


I disagree. While I'm sure it's seldom the case, BDSM doesn't have to have a sexual component. Interracial doesn't have to mean sexual, either. You can have a love story between people of different color (where "race" is an important part of the story) but there are no descriptions of sex.

In general, I always have a problem with someone else wanting to decide what makes sense for my stories. It's the same with moderators changing the formating. It's not that I use complex formats or anything, but I have thought about how I want to present my story. There's no reason for some moderators to meddle with it (resulting in different chapters of the same story looking different). It's the same with story codes (I'm the one who gets the "hate" mails if someone doesn't agree with me on the codes I selected for the story, after all).

Dominions Son
Updated:

@DerAndy


In general, I always have a problem with someone else wanting to decide what makes sense for my stories.


Perhaps, but for the story codes to have any value, they have to have fixed meanings, not just be what ever the author wants them to be.

You need to spend some time studying the Story Codes FAQ.

Interracial Sexual partners of different races

Replies:   DerAndy  Ernest Bywater
Crumbly Writer

@DerAndy

I disagree. While I'm sure it's seldom the case, BDSM doesn't have to have a sexual component. Interracial doesn't have to mean sexual, either. You can have a love story between people of different color (where "race" is an important part of the story) but there are no descriptions of sex.

While that's true, in theory, it's not in practice. If you review most of the race related stories, their all sex based (ex: stereotypical BBM rapist and fragile WF who 'loves it', or the diminutive Asian who dominates men--the types of stories which help discourage minorities from frequenting the site).

My brother, who was a NYC based performance artist during the AIDS crisis in NY during the 90s, was in whipping as a BDSM practice, but refused to play the expected roles. Whenever he's be whipped, he'd giggle like a schoolgirl, unnerving all the 200# Bears in chaps. However, he was also into self-flagellation as a form of meditation (as the religious mystics did a thousand years ago in Europe, as a way of 'communing with God), which qualifies as no-sex, but is an unlikely topic in anything on SOL.

I've written multiple stories with black, Asian, Hispanic, Asain and transgendered characters, but I've never once used any of the tags because their roles are plot based, no sexual-kink based.

Replies:   DerAndy  Switch Blayde
DerAndy

@Dominions Son

Doesn't mean there have to be graphic descriptions of sex, at least in my opinion. Of course, to me the color of the people who happen to have sex doesn't matter so I don't care about that code in that context, it would only matter to me if it had a relevance to the story (as a source of conflict). That's just me, of course.

You have expections from readers, and they seldom read the FAQ. If the FAQ stated "Watersports = people playing ball games in a swimming pool" - that's nicely fixed, but the reader has a different expectation.

DerAndy

@Crumbly Writer

While that's true, in theory, it's not in practice. If you review most of the race related stories, their all sex based (ex: stereotypical BBM rapist and fragile WF who 'loves it', or the diminutive Asian who dominates men--the types of stories which help discourage minorities from frequenting the site).


I'm sure you are right (I don't really care about that so I don't have any basis for comparison). All I wanted to say is, just because that's true for almost all stories, it doesn't have to be true for every single one of them.

I've written multiple stories with black, Asian, Hispanic, Asain and transgendered characters, but I've never once used any of the tags because their roles are plot based, no sexual-kink based.


I'm wondering, are there people who have problems with that? For example, I don't like overly religious stories, so I'd really like to have a tag for that to "warn me away". I don't know how people feel about interracial themes these days.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@DerAndy

Doesn't mean there have to be graphic descriptions of sex, at least in my opinion.


It doesn't matter if the descriptions of sex are non-graphic, it's still sex, and that's not a no-sex story.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  DerAndy
Dominions Son

@DerAndy

You have expections from readers, and they seldom read the FAQ. If the FAQ stated "Watersports = people playing ball games in a swimming pool" - that's nicely fixed, but the reader has a different expectation.


1. You have no knowledge of how common it is (or isn't) for readers to read the story code FAQ.

2. Readers and authors should be encouraged to read the story code FAQ and understand the defined meanings of the codes.

3. Reader expectations for "interracial" are closer to what I and Crumbly have described rather than your suggested use.

Replies:   DerAndy
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

While that's true, in theory, it's not in practice. If you review most of the race related stories, their all sex based (ex: stereotypical BBM rapist and fragile WF who 'loves it',


That's because the codes were "borrowed" by SOL from a sex story site and, in fact, SOL started as a sex story site.

Since SOL evolved to have no-sex stories, the codes have to evolve with it.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

You need to spend some time studying the Story Codes FAQ.


And some of the definitions and groups make ti clear they only relate to stories with sexual activity, like Sexual Orientation, Incest, Groups, Interracial Elements, Sexual Activities, Fetishes, Rough Sex, Rape, while some aren't as obvious at involving sex, like, Torture on the story stage.

It would be nice if the Submission Wizard had a way of excluding codes that relate only to sexual activity when the No Sex rating is selected during the submission process, or the codes had something to indicate they should only be used when graphic sexual activity is used.

One thing a lot of authors make mistakes with is when they add a code for some activity that happens off the centre screen, and thus need not be coded. A character mentioning they were raped is not a rape scene unless they go into recounting the full details.

Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

Doesn't mean there have to be graphic descriptions of sex, at least in my opinion.

It doesn't matter if the descriptions of sex are non-graphic, it's still sex, and that's not a no-sex story.


It doesn't have to have sex to be interracial. Write a love story between a black and a white in the Deep South set in the Jim Crow laws days. That's definitely an interracial story.

Replies:   Dominions Son
DerAndy

@Dominions Son

It doesn't matter if the descriptions of sex are non-graphic, it's still sex, and that's not a no-sex story.


The FAQ don't help me here, but I assumed off screen sex that's mentioned doesn't mean it can't be no-sex. I'll have to investigate should I ever write a story without sex.

DerAndy

@Dominions Son

1. You have no knowledge of how common it is (or isn't) for readers to read the story code FAQ.

2. Readers and authors should be encouraged to read the story code FAQ and understand the defined meanings of the codes.

3. Reader expectations for "interracial" are closer to what I and Crumbly have described rather than your suggested use.


To borrow point 1 from you, you don't know what readers expect for "interracial", either. ;)

I don't see why I, as a reader, should need to read the story code definitions for every site I visit. In my opinion, codes should be flexible enough that what I learned on other sites applies here, too.

DerAndy
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


And some of the definitions and groups make ti clear they only relate to stories with sexual activity, like Sexual Orientation, Incest, Groups, Interracial Elements, Sexual Activities, Fetishes, Rough Sex, Rape, while some aren't as obvious at involving sex, like, Torture on the story stage.


But why? Again, the FAQ doesn't state there has to be sex in a story about a girl coming to grips with her sexual orientation and falling in love with another girl to make it "lesbian". Again, for me "interracial" is debatable. Is "rape" really sex, depending on how it is written? One can write a full rape scene without any mention of intercourse, but going into the detail about the horrors the raped person is feeling.

Isn't it all context?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@DerAndy

I don't see why I, as a reader, should need to read the story code definitions for every site I visit. In my opinion, codes should be flexible enough that what I learned on other sites applies here, too.


That other sites allow story codes to be heavily misused to the point that the story codes are worthless does not mean we should duplicate that practice here. That is one of the points that makes SOL better.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

It doesn't have to have sex to be interracial. Write a love story between a black and a white in the Deep South set in the Jim Crow laws days. That's definitely an interracial story.


That's not the way the story codes are defined. If you don't want to use the codes the way they are defined in the FAQ, don't use them at all.

The codes have to mean the same thing across all stories/authors or they have no value at all.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Ernest Bywater

It would be nice if the Submission Wizard had a way of excluding codes that relate only to sexual activity when the No Sex rating is selected during the submission process,


It does. Many codes are even colour coded for this purpose. When 'no-sex' is selected in the sex contents step the codes table hides roughly half the codes.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


When 'no-sex' is selected in the sex contents step the codes table hides roughly half the codes.


Oddly enough, despite writing so many No Sex stories I never noticed this. I just skipped down to the right codes, clicked them, and kept going.

Ernest Bywater

@DerAndy

I assumed off screen sex that's mentioned doesn't mean it can't be no-sex. I'll have to investigate should I ever write a story without sex.


This may or may not answer your concern, but It does for me, when you extend what's said at (in text bold added by me for emphasis):

http://storiesonline.net/author/posting_guidelines.php

quote

Correct, Precise Codes:

Correct codes are extremely important. Most people use the codes to decide whether they want to read a story or not. The more precise your codes are the better your scores will be. If you put the wrong codes or you miss some codes or even put extra codes, you risk the chance of people retaliating by giving you low scores.

For example, if you put the romance code in your story's codes, while your story is a rape story, then you'll attract those people that are looking for romance and when they find the rape in there then they'll be shocked and the result is usually a vote of 1. And by not labeling the rape, you won't attract those interested in reading about a rape who would give your story a higher score. So it's all about attracting the right audience.

Precise coding is also important. Excessive coding is bad. If something is mentioned in the story but not described, then it shouldn't coded for. Anything that happens off screen shouldn't be coded for. For example, if a woman gets raped, and the story doesn't contain the rape scene, only a mention that the woman was raped, then the story doesn't need the 'Rape' code. Use your judgement and try to see it from the readers point. If you see a code in the story what would it mean to you? Code accordingly.

Make sure that you read the Code FAQ to have a clear understanding of what each code means. If you have codes that are crucial to your story and are not in the list then email me.

end quote

Replies:   DerAndy
Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

That's not the way the story codes are defined. If you don't want to use the codes the way they are defined in the FAQ, don't use them at all.


Then don't allow no-sex stories on SOL. The codes were put there for sex stories. If you want to change what type of story is allowed on SOL, the codes have to accommodate those stories.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


Then don't allow no-sex stories on SOL.


If you go back the the original SoL front page it said it was a story site that allowed sex stories, where other sites were either all sex stories or no sex stories, thus to have both was something new.

typical typo edit of mine

Replies:   docholladay
DerAndy

@Ernest Bywater

Thank you, it's been a while since I read that. :)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@DerAndy


Thank you, it's been a while since I read that. :)


I can understand why Lazeez changed it a few years back. It now emphasizes sex stories because they attract more new readers. However, the information from the original front page is at the bottom of the page as:

Stories are our focus, including sex stories and erotica. Storiesonline is the home of thousands of authors showcasing their erotic writing talents. Tens of thousands of erotic and non-erotic short stories, novels, and serials and ebooks are available through a comprehensive search engine, author homepages and blogs, and daily updates on new stories and features. With absolutely no advertising and FREE membership, this is the site for online fiction you've been looking for.

Please notice the first sentence, which is either close paraphrasing or direct quote from the original front page. I do wish he'd bold that sentence to make it stand out more.

docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

If you go back the the original SoL front page it said it was a story site that allowed sex stories, where other sites were either all sex stories or no sex stories, thus to have both was something new.


It has stayed new as well. Although I can only imagine the headaches it has given the site admin's to make it work as well as it has.

The thing I have always enjoyed is there is something for every taste in fiction available here. The only reason its considered an adult site is the sex stories.

How ever when I suggest the site to others, its the variety that I mention not a particular author or genre. My favorites might not suit their taste in fiction. And until I learn what a person will enjoy reading its much safer to mention a site. Now I can add two other sites which are also suitable for kids.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

How ever when I suggest the site to others, its the variety that I mention


In my opinion it's the variety of sex and no sex stories that keeps SoL alive when other sites that are either all sex stories or all no sex stories have died out through lack of support. A few have managed to hang on because they're more a showcase for the works of the author who runs them.

awnlee jawking

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I know this is contradictory to the notice above, but I regularly see forum requests for stories involving specific sports eg American football, baseball.

Is there sufficient demand to justify consideration of further tags to break down sports stories by sport?

AJ

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


break down sports stories by sport?


That's a huge list, because how do you justify having one sport and not another - take football, there's several codes, which do you have as individual codes and which are generic? Then hockey as against ice hockey, where do you draw the line?

edit to add: just ran a category search on Sports, and there's only 83 stories - I doubt it's worth splitting lower. And if you want school sports you use both tags to get a count of 26 stories.

awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

how do you justify having one sport and not another


It's a catch-22 situation. How do you know what tags readers want to search for unless those tags are implemented throughout all the qualifying stories and reader searches monitored? But American football and baseball particularly have been requested on this forum. I wouldn't expect cricket or hockey to have any demand, for example, but ice hockey might be a borderline case (if only for the Dman series).

AJ

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Crumbly Writer

@DerAndy

I'm sure you are right (I don't really care about that so I don't have any basis for comparison). All I wanted to say is, just because that's true for almost all stories, it doesn't have to be true for every single one of them.

If not, then you're using the codes incorrectly, which is a further argument for encouraging authors to be more selective in which tags they choose for their stories, rather than allowing a few to use as many as they can think of as a sort of 'prize' for creativity.

@D.S.

It doesn't matter if the descriptions of sex are non-graphic, it's still sex, and that's not a no-sex story.

It's perfectly fine to discuss sex in a non-sex story, you just can't describe the sexual acts. In an upcoming story, I make references to a brother and sister's incestuous relationship in a Finestories story, but I refrain from including any scenes showing what they actually do about it.

The relationship has a bearing on the plot, whereas the sexual activity doesn't (at least not directly, though it aids the SOL story).

@Switch

Since SOL evolved to have no-sex stories, the codes have to evolve with it.

No, what is means is, if you don't use those singular sexual stereotype exchanges, then you simply don't use racial codes to label your story. No one really cares whether a particular character is black or white, especially not when selecting a story, unless they're trying to satisfy a particular kind. If a story addresses black issues, it's easy enough to identify that the conflict in the story description.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Crumbly Writer

@DerAndy

The FAQ don't help me here, but I assumed off screen sex that's mentioned doesn't mean it can't be no-sex. I'll have to investigate should I ever write a story without sex.

As I said earlier, I have and I made a separate FS version which excludes the various sex scenes. However, the incestuous relationship between the lead characters is essential to the basic plotline, as it reflects a differing cultural perspective (Hint: the series title is "Not-Quite Human"). Thus even though the story is 'no sex', it doesn't assume that younger children are completely unaware of sexual issues addressed in the news almost every day.

Crumbly Writer

@DerAndy

I don't see why I, as a reader, should need to read the story code definitions for every site I visit. In my opinion, codes should be flexible enough that what I learned on other sites applies here, too.

The point isn't that readers are required to research the codes, but it's what readers searching for those types of stories are generally searching for. There aren't nearly as many readers searching for "black issues", "Hispanic issues" or "robot issues" ("Alien squid-sex issues?")

Crumbly Writer

@DerAndy

But why? Again, the FAQ doesn't state there has to be sex in a story about a girl coming to grips with her sexual orientation and falling in love with another girl to make it "lesbian".

Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), "lesbian" and "gay" doesn't necessarily correlate to "gay sex". FS includes the gay and lesbian tags. Instead, it also includes "gay and lesbian issues", whereas the racial tags are specifically tagged to allow the majority of readers to avoid the obviously 'squick' material which will make them uncomfortable. In other words, the codes aren't there to promote stories, as much as making it easier to bypass potentially offensive stories.

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

That is one of the points that makes SOL better.

That's why I'd prefer to see the racial story codes fall into disrepair. In my own case, and that of most other authors, we've simply never used any of them (aside from the obvious "lesbian" and "gay", which again are more for 'squick avoidance' than for story location).

As such, it's a handy search tool for those looking for offensive material, but there's no reason for everyone else to bother with those stories.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

That's a huge list, because how do you justify having one sport and not another - take football, there's several codes, which do you have as individual codes and which are generic? Then hockey as against ice hockey, where do you draw the line?

I agree. It's easy enough searching for "volleyball", rather than relying purely on the listed tags. I can't see adding dozens of tags would really benefit anyone.

However, I wouldn't be averse to removing the racial codes entirely. By eliminating them, it would prevent authors from earmarking those types of stories, while leaving the existing stories (mostly written years ago in a different time) as they are.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


Since SOL evolved to have no-sex stories, the codes have to evolve with it.

No, what is means is, if you don't use those singular sexual stereotype exchanges, then you simply don't use racial codes to label your story. No one really cares whether a particular character is black or white, especially not when selecting a story, unless they're trying to satisfy a particular kind. If a story addresses black issues, it's easy enough to identify that the conflict in the story description.


We'll have to disagree on this one. To me, a no-sex love story between a black and white in the Deep South during the Jim Crow laws days is more of an interracial story than a bunch of black kids with big dicks making their white teacher scream.

Replies:   Argon  Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

How do you know what tags readers want to search for unless those tags are implemented throughout all the qualifying stories and reader searches monitored?


True, but the majority of authors mention the sport in the story blurb, and the advanced search allows you to search on words in the blurb, thus you can refine such a search in that way.

We don't want so many tag options it takes forever to go through them when submitting a story. Also when introducing new tags it's almost impossible to get the authors to go and apply them to their existing stories, so you'll never get them all fully tagged, no matter what.

You also need to keep in mind how many stories are listed when you search on a tag 83 stories out of 38,853 is only 0.2136% of them. 11 are baseball and 16 are football - according to the blurbs - and some of those football blurbs may mean soccer. Also I noticed a couple of older stories involving sport weren't found by the search because the stories predate the tag and don't have it.

Argon
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


We'll have to disagree on this one. To me, a no-sex love story between a black and white in the Deep South during the Jim Crow laws days is more of an interracial story than a bunch of black kids with big dicks making their white teacher scream.


Hear, hear!

In the first case, interracial would be a plot element, i.e. story type. A good example would be Wes Boyd's "Alone Together" or Lubrican's "Flossie's Revenge". The second example is essentially a taboo story describing the act of sex between members of different ethnic groups, often with stereotypic depictions of anatomy, behaviour and language.

IMO, there should be a tag for interracial in the Story Type group to indicate stories in which ethnic boundaries and/or conflicts, real or perceived, are plot elements.

BTW: I fully agree with a limit on tags. Even 50 seems like a lot.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

Instead of disabling story codes when the story is no-sex, I wonder if there needs to be separate sets of codes for sex stories and no-sex stories with unique definitions.

Interracial is one we've discussed, but how about Mm? In a sex story, that's a gay story with an adult male and teenage male. But Mm in a no-sex story might be a story about the relationship between a teenage boy and his coach or priest or father or even parole officer.

Whereas the story code of "teenagers" would have the same definition for both sets (or in today's terminology, YA or Young Adult).

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

We'll have to disagree on this one. To me, a no-sex love story between a black and white in the Deep South during the Jim Crow laws days is more of an interracial story than a bunch of black kids with big dicks making their white teacher scream.

I agree, but it's less likely to be flagged as "black" than a more stereotypical story is. It's the stereotype you're flagging, not the story description.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
docholladay
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


Instead of disabling story codes when the story is no-sex, I wonder if there needs to be separate sets of codes for sex stories and no-sex stories with unique definitions.


Not really, most of the tags just give information as to the interactions of characters. Sure some are sex act specific and those could be skipped, but let the writer decide which codes best fit their story with in reason.

Its like when I went to the Waffle House or some other public place. I met and interacted with different races, gays and lesbians among other lifestyle choices. It was there and even kids could see it. But as long as the lifestyle choice wasn't forced on someone else I for one didn't care.

edited to add: change the didn't care to the phrase from one of Hank Williams songs "Not my business".

richardshagrin

The real question in my mind is what to call Brazilian and Portuguese women who are not really "Latina" as they don't speak Spanish.

Replies:   sejintenej
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

a no-sex story might be a story about the relationship between a teenage boy and his coach or priest or father or even parole officer.


Why do you feel the need to tag that at all?

Replies:   Switch Blayde
awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

That readers have requested stories with such content in the forum suggests the tags deserve at least as much consideration as those suggested by authors.

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Grant

@Switch Blayde

Instead of disabling story codes when the story is no-sex, I wonder if there needs to be separate sets of codes for sex stories and no-sex stories with unique definitions.

God no.

The whole idea of the codes is that they have a specific meaning. Having the same terms have multiple meanings depending on the type of story & which web site it's used on just makes a mockery of the idea & would make it a complete waste of time.
If you think people have problems now, that would make it orders of magnitude worse.

"This is my brother Bob Jones, my baby brother Bob Jones & my younger brother Bob Jones and my sister, Bob Jones."
Words that can have different meanings are bad enough even with the use of context; one name for different people doesn't work, a tag with multiple definitions won't work.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
sejintenej

@richardshagrin

The real question in my mind is what to call Brazilian and Portuguese women who are not really "Latina" as they don't speak Spanish.

Firstly, despite the Moorish influences Portuguese is a Latin language just as are Italian, Romanian, Llanito, Catalan (Occitan) and Spanish etc.

Surely "Latina" refers to those from Latin America so you exclude Spanish and Portuguese. Those two plus Brasil refer to themselves as Luso or Luzo though personally I would exclude Spanish speakers from that adjective.
For me "Latina" also requires a swarthy / Mediterranean appearance. Brasil, like the USA, is a melting pot of races from extremely fair blue-eyed blondes to those who seem to be straight out of Africa to the ever-present Asians (mainly Japanese). Argentina has the world's largest population of Welsh speakers whilst Chile has Scots and Irish - not Latina by my definition.
Would you lump Maya with those of Spanish extraction? Latina is too hard a word to define as relating to a country or five.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay
Updated:

@sejintenej


@richardshagrin

The real question in my mind is what to call Brazilian and Portuguese women who are not really "Latina" as they don't speak Spanish.

Firstly, despite the Moorish influences Portuguese is a Latin language just as are Italian, Romanian, Llanito, Catalan (Occitan) and Spanish etc.

Surely "Latina" refers to those from Latin America so you exclude Spanish and Portuguese. Those two plus Brasil refer to themselves as Luso or Luzo though personally I would exclude Spanish speakers from that adjective.

For me "Latina" also requires a swarthy / Mediterranean appearance. Brasil, like the USA, is a melting pot of races from extremely fair blue-eyed blondes to those who seem to be straight out of Africa to the ever-present Asians (mainly Japanese). Argentina has the world's largest population of Welsh speakers whilst Chile has Scots and Irish - not Latina by my definition.

Would you lump Maya with those of Spanish extraction? Latina is too hard a word to define as relating to a country or five.


This is where the writer should choose the tag that best fits the story. Although whenever you have people (characters) from more than one racial background or culture you have the "interracial" tag requirement covered regardless of the sex act. Racial and culture details usually come out in the story if required. That interracial tag for me means more than one race or culture is involved in the plot.

edited to add: Interracial tags are not just for black and white interactions.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

That readers have requested stories with such content in the forum suggests the tags deserve at least as much consideration as those suggested by authors.

I agree but (I assume you're speaking about the football/baseball tags), the point was no one was sure it would serve a large need, and the risk of increasing demands for additional sports seemed an additional deterrent.

Even if there were more demands for sports-related stories, the list of possible sports could result in quite a few additional, little used tags.

Personally, from comments heard over the years, I suspect there's more demand for sports stories than there are authors writing them. :(

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

I suspect there's more demand for sports stories than there are authors writing them. :(


I'd support that. One of these reasons a lot of people don't write more sports stories is you need to be fairly well versed in the sport or able to research it well, and then you'll still get people telling you you're wrong.

Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

Although whenever you have people (characters) from more than one racial background or culture you have the "interracial" tag requirement covered regardless of the sex act.

Except, this isn't about what you, personally, would like to use the existing codes for. Instead, it's based on what Lazeez established the codes for, which is the most efficient classification of stories. Since these sex acts are major sticks and attractions, it's a bigger selection criteria than is nationality, which is more easily described in the story description.

If there's enough demand, Lazeez could add additional tags, say "BBM" and "racial", but I have trouble seeing how that would buy the site much.

Personally, I'd go back and read the tags FAQ if I were you, as I'm guessing you've been mislabeling your stories for some time.

Replies:   docholladay
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

I'd support that. One of these reasons a lot of people don't write more sports stories is you need to be fairly well versed in the sport or able to research it well, and then you'll still get people telling you you're wrong.

Another factor, sports are--aside from couch potato fans--a young man's sport, whereas most authors are older, and writing is mostly an 'indoor sport' conducted by those who spend their hours hunched over a computer screen.

Familiarity with a topic is more important to the interest in writing about a topic than the ability to research it.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Crumbly Writer

Familiarity with a topic is more important to the interest in writing about a topic than the ability to research it.


Does that apply to sex?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Does that apply to sex?

The appeal of sex is fairly universal, and knowledge (and interest) in it remains even when the ability to act on it fades over time. It's the interest in sex which promotes the research into the unfamiliar aspects, like when I wrote my one gay story.

docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

Personally, I'd go back and read the tags FAQ if I were you, as I'm guessing you've been mislabeling your stories for some time.


Not mislabeling so much as using the in story descriptions more than the racial tags. Those do exist to some extent and are utilized.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@docholladay


Not mislabeling so much as using the in story descriptions more than the racial tags. Those do exist to some extent and are utilized.


I still contend that's the proper choice. Most interracial stories (rather than sex acts) are based on romantic couplings, which are easier to search for and identify. They also appeal to more than one specific racial type.

They also don't have the 'squick' stigma to worry about. Someone may not be interested in 'racial issues', but if the story is good, most will ignore how you label the character.

Replies:   docholladay
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

I'd support that. One of these reasons a lot of people don't write more sports stories is you need to be fairly well versed in the sport or able to research it well, and then you'll still get people telling you you're wrong.


There's a cure for that. Make up your own sport. :)

richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

Make up your own sport. :)


Like: Tie your Kangaroo down, sport?

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

I agree, but it's less likely to be flagged as "black" than a more stereotypical story is. It's the stereotype you're flagging, not the story description.


Which is why I said there's a problem using the same codes and definitions for both. The codes were created for sex stories. To force them to fit no-sex stories simply doesn't work.

Replies:   Grant
Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

a no-sex story might be a story about the relationship between a teenage boy and his coach or priest or father or even parole officer.

Why do you feel the need to tag that at all?


So that someone searching for a story with a relationship between a teenage boy and an adult male could find it.

Switch Blayde

@Grant

The whole idea of the codes is that they have a specific meaning.


The specific meanings are for sex stories. A meaning might not apply to no-sex story. For example, my "Mm" example. And even my "interracial" one.

Replies:   Grant
Grant

@Switch Blayde

The codes were created for sex stories. To force them to fit no-sex stories simply doesn't work.

The codes were created for stories. Changing their meaning depending on whether it's a sex story or not simply doesn't work.
Stories with sex in them have the code Stroke for stories that are all about Sex & not much else; then there's the Sex code with the modifiers- Much, Some, Minimal, and No.
You can either tag a story as No Sex, or just leave the Sex tag off completely.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

I still contend that's the proper choice. Most interracial stories (rather than sex acts) are based on romantic couplings, which are easier to search for and identify. They also appeal to more than one specific racial type.


You can have romance without describing the actual sex acts. Those activities can be implied instead of explicit details.

Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

You are correct, for instance with BDSM, there are distinctly different audiences for Female Dominant and Male Dominant stories.

On the other hand, In my opinion, for most of those cases, you can get away with using the particular tag without using the generic tag.


Yeah, I can see FemDom or MDom scenario where Sadism/Masochism portion doesn't fully apply. Which will likewise mostly rule out a significant portion of the Bondage category as well. Not much of a BDSM story if it is all about the Domination and minimal to no bondage to be had, and no sadism/masochism to really speak of.

Switch Blayde

@Grant

The codes were created for stories. Changing their meaning depending on whether it's a sex story or not simply doesn't work.


I'll have to disagree. As Crumbly said, the "interracial" story code has a very stereotypical meaning. Sure, over time, Lazeez added other nationalities, but the original interracial code meant black and white and usually well-hung black males with white women. My guess is that readers searching on "interracial" are looking for those stories.

Grant
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

The specific meanings are for sex stories.


Stories yes.

Sex stories, only in limited cases.

A meaning might not apply to no-sex story. For example, my "Mm" example.


Why wouldn't "Mm" be applicable to a non sex story? If the story is about the relationship between the main characters, and they're Mm, it's applicable.

And even my "interracial" one.


And that is one Tag that is by definition only for Sex stories. Along with Incest.

Fromm the Code FAQ-

"Interracial; Sexual partners of different races"

"Incest; Sex between blood-related members of the same family"

About the only other tags I can see that aren't applicable to non sex stories are, surprise! the Sexual Activities tags; and under Fetishes, Public Sex.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Make up your own sport.


as in: a plant or animal that is different in a noticeable way from other plants or animals of the same type. Could take a lot of work to do that.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

as in: a plant or animal that is different in a noticeable way from other plants or animals of the same type. Could take a lot of work to do that.


Sci-Fi and Fantasy authors frequently create entire worlds. A sport is nothing.

DerAndy

@Switch Blayde

Instead of disabling story codes when the story is no-sex, I wonder if there needs to be separate sets of codes for sex stories and no-sex stories with unique definitions.


I feel that having a different set of codes makes things even more complicated for the reader than they are now.

Why not use the "sex content" for that distinction? If you have a no-sex story with interracial tag, racial issues are important to the story but there's no sex. If it's a sex-story, there's probably sex between the two. If not, I feel that would be an edge case where the description could clear it up. Same with lesbian and other codes.

For those who use the tags to filter out squicks, I assume that would be the better solution because I don't think many people who don't want to read about interracial sex are fine with a story discussing interracial conflicts. I might be wrong.

I can't begin to guess if there are more people who don't want to read about that or who specifically search for interracial stories, however...

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@DerAndy

For those who use the tags to filter out squicks, I assume that would be the better solution because I don't think many people who don't want to read about interracial sex are fine with a story discussing interracial conflicts. I might be wrong.


A bad assumption. Neither the category search, nor the category exclusion preferences are that sophisticated.

Category exclusions in the user profile are applied to all story lists site wide.

Assume a reader who is squicked by interracial sex but interested in a no sex story involving interracial conflict.

If that reader sets Interracial in their category exclusion preferences, that reader will never even know that your no-sex interracial story exists.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  DerAndy
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Neither the category search, nor the category exclusion preferences are that sophisticated.


actually, you can get close by being careful on how you use the search page. If you select for no sex only and also for interracial you get 65 stories listed

Replies:   Dominions Son
Switch Blayde

Remember why I stated that the current story codes are not totally suitable for no-sex stories. It was in response to comments like:

"While I'm sure it's seldom the case, BDSM doesn't have to have a sexual component. Interracial doesn't have to mean sexual, either."

and

"While that's true, in theory, it's not in practice. If you review most of the race related stories, their all sex based (ex: stereotypical BBM rapist and fragile WF who 'loves it'."

The assumption is readers will understand and accept the variations of the codes. I still have people telling me my non-consent stories are rape even though they are not rape per the SOL definition. So I'm not confident that will ever happen.

I didn't originally say we needed a separate set of codes. I said the codes need to evolve with their diverse use. When that was objected to, I said then we needed separate codes for sex and no-sex stories because some of them had different meanings.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

actually, you can get close by being careful on how you use the search page. If you select for no sex only and also for interracial you get 65 stories listed


But you can't do that on the exclusion side. You can't exclude only interracial stories that are not no-sex

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

I said the codes need to evolve with their diverse use. When that was objected to


I don't object to that, I just object to authors doing so unilaterally.

Petition Lazeez to broaden the definition of a particular code, then the FAQ can be updated along with site wide announcements.

Replies:   DerAndy
DerAndy

@Dominions Son

A bad assumption. Neither the category search, nor the category exclusion preferences are that sophisticated.


I don't know if that's really true, but so what?

I feel like we are discussing different things. You want people to follow the rules. I'm discussing if it isn't time for the rules to evolve (to match the realities as I see them). Those positions are not mutually exclusive.

Should the rules change, if the search functions don't fit them any more they can be changed, too.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Capt Zapp
DerAndy

@Dominions Son

I don't object to that, I just object to authors doing so unilaterally.


Seems that you posted as I was typing. See, we can agree on something. :)

Dominions Son

@DerAndy

Should the rules change, if the search functions don't fit them any more they can be changed, too.


That's up to Lazeez. If he decides that the rule change is too much for the current search / exclusion functions and that updating the functions to match the rules you want is too much work, you will need to live with the rules as they are.

Daydreamz

My feeling is the search function would work better with many fewer tags. It's awesomely comprehensive, but daunting. There's a massive drop-off in reads when a story falls off the 'front pages' of the site, and I think that's because the search facility is so demanding, and visually very 'text'. I get the impression it started with every possible tag, then the search interface followed, but it would be better to start with an appealing search interface IMO.

Also my experience is that setting a large number of parameters isn't such a great help in finding a story I'm going to enjoy.

Readers want one click to go to a broad category, is my feeling, and ideally direct from the home page. Then a very small number of filters/sort parameters, ideally graphic and colourful.

Just my thoughts.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

But you can't do that on the exclusion side. You can't exclude only interracial stories that are not no-sex


I'm not sure what you're trying to say or do with this. With the Category Search page you have the Simple form and the Advanced form. With the Advanced search form you can select a + or a - for any of the categories, the plus means I 'I want his category' while the minus means 'I don't want this category.' Thus you can exclude any category.

At the bottom you can choose to select the level of sexual content, you can choose any of the levels or multiple levels - thus you can exclude a level by not selecting it. Thus you can mix and match the options how you like.

Replies:   Dominions Son
docholladay

The story when everything is boiled down is the writer's not mine. I along with all of the other readers just have the privilege of reading their story.

The writer is the only one who can properly tag the story, since it is their work. I will say the tags should be chosen to fit the story with the minimum number of tags possible. In other words don't duplicate the tag meanings unless really required.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

At the bottom you can choose to select the level of sexual content, you can choose any of the levels or multiple levels - thus you can exclude a level by not selecting it. Thus you can mix and match the options how you like.


But that exclude all of the stories with any one of the excluded tags, not just those with all of them.

What if I want to search for all Mystery stories whether they have sex in them or not, but I don't want to see any that have M/M or M/m or m/m sex in them.

If authors start using the age/gender tags for platonic relationships, I can't exclude M/m sex stories without also excluding M/m no sex stories.

Then there are the category exclusion preferences which apply on top of the category search and any other story list.

docholladay

@Dominions Son

If authors start using the age/gender tags for platonic relationships, I can't exclude M/m sex stories without also excluding M/m no sex stories.


I would think that was what the field for the amount of sex was far. It lists what the writer thinks is the appropriate sex activity from none to stroke levels. I think that is where the exclusions would be made. Of course you have to remember that older stories might not have that field as part of their descriptions.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

What if I want to search for all Mystery stories whether they have sex in them or not, but I don't want to see any that have M/M or M/m or m/m sex in them.


simple, you leave the sex level codes set at 'All' and you use the advanced search from to tag the minus symbol for the codes you don't want, and the plus symbol for the code you do want. Thus, in this example you put a Plus for Mystery and a Minus for M/M, M/m, m/m. That will give you all the Mystery stories that don't have an male / male action regardless of the sex level.

Where it gets awkward is if you want the search above, but want to also include the No Sex male / male mystery stories you'll have to run a second search with plus tags for No sex, Mystery, M/M, M/m, m/m. Then sue both lists.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Capt Zapp

@DerAndy

(to match the realities as I see them)


As Adam Savage of Mythbusters once said, "I reject your reality and substitute my own"

Replies:   DerAndy
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

Yes, it's very awkward and I don't think many readers squicked by M/M sex will go that far. Rather I think they will avoid no-sex stories tagged M/M, M/m or m/m as well.

That's why I think using those tags for no-sex stories is a bad idea.

Dominions Son

@docholladay

I would think that was what the field for the amount of sex was far.


The exclusion is an or not an and. If you exclude no sex and M/M you will see no no-sex stories and no M/M stories.

There is no way to exclude only those m/m stories that have sex in them.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

That's why I think using those tags for no-sex stories is a bad idea.


Just ran a search and there are NO male male stories at the No sex or Minimal Sex levels, at Some Sex there are 3 hits, and 74 hits for Any

Replies:   Dominions Son  DerAndy
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

Just ran a search and there are NO male male stories at the No sex or Minimal Sex levels, at Some Sex there are 3 hits, and 74 hits for Any


Yes, but others on this thread have been talking about using M/m for no-sex stories.

docholladay

@Dominions Son

I didn't mean to say it was a perfect solution. But why add to the site admin's headaches. No solution will be perfect for everyone. But why not try and work within the present system. I have noticed that Laz is constantly trying to improve the system's performance.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@docholladay


I didn't mean to say it was a perfect solution. But why add to the site admin's headaches. No solution will be perfect for everyone. But why not try and work within the present system. I have noticed that Laz is constantly trying to improve the system's performance. Any author who tags a no-sex story M/M is going to drastically cut the audience for the story.


The problem is that M/M sex is a squick for a large percentage of the reader base. I think their aversion to M/M sex is strong enough that they won't be willing to jump trough hoops to see platonic M/M stories, that's why using M/M on no-sex stories is particularly problematic. Any author who tags a no-sex story with M/M is going to significantly reduce the potential audience for the story.

Replies:   DerAndy
DerAndy

@Capt Zapp

As Adam Savage of Mythbusters once said, "I reject your reality and substitute my own"


I believe everyone has their own reality. Isn't it human to project one's own believes on how one perceives reality? Just because I believe the majority of readers have some expectations, I might be totally wrong. And for sure others believe different.

DerAndy

@Dominions Son

I think their aversion to M/M sex is strong enough that they won't be willing to jump trough hoops to see platonic M/M stories, that's why using M/M on no-sex stories is particularly problematic.


If someone has problems with M/M sex, isn't the probability high that they don't want to read a M/M love story, either? If someone is open minded enough that they would read a no-sex story with M/M, they can just not filter by that tag and not read stories from the results that don't fit their expectations.

Seems I don't know enough about the search feature, as I don't have premier membership. I can only search for what I'd like to have in a story, not for what I don't like. I don't think I would anyway, I just don't read stories from the results that seem to contain something I don't like.

Replies:   Dominions Son
DerAndy

@Ernest Bywater

Just ran a search and there are NO male male stories at the No sex or Minimal Sex levels, at Some Sex there are 3 hits, and 74 hits for Any


So, are there no stories with M/M content without sex? Or are people who are squishy about it just not warned?

I just clicked through the submission wizzard and I noticed that M/M (and most of the Age/Gender category) are available for no-sex, as are Sexual Orientations (Gay/Lesbian/TransGenter/...), BDSM and Interracial Elements. The FAQ doesn't mention they are for sex stories only, either. With the exception of Interracial where "sexual partners" might lean in that direction.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@DerAndy

If someone has problems with M/M sex, isn't the probability high that they don't want to read a M/M love story, either?


A love story, probably not. However, the up thread suggestion for a no-sex M/m story wasn't a love story, but rather a strictly platonic mentoring relationship between an older male and a younger male.

Sure, go ahead and use the age/gender combo codes for a no-sex romance. But they are not appropriate for a no-sex story that isn't a romance.

Replies:   DerAndy  Switch Blayde
DerAndy

@Dominions Son

But they are not appropriate for a no-sex story that isn't a romance.


If the fact that the protagonists are gay are a major plot point, I think different. If it's not important to the story, I'm with you. But that's true for every tag, I think.

Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

Yes, it's very awkward and I don't think many readers squicked by M/M sex will go that far. Rather I think they will avoid no-sex stories tagged M/M, M/m or m/m as well.

That's why I think using those tags for no-sex stories is a bad idea.


And that's why I believe having a story code designed for a sex story for a no-sex story could be a bad idea.

Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

Sure, go ahead and use the age/gender combo codes for a no-sex romance. But they are not appropriate for a no-sex story that isn't a romance.


I remember posting a no-sex story. None of the story codes fit because it wasn't a sex story. But the Wizard required me to have at least one so I chose M/F because the two characters were male and female.

Now if that story had been a mentoring story between a male adult and a teenage boy, and the Wizard insisted I have at least one code, I would have chosen M/m.

Replies:   Capt Zapp  Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@Daydreamz

Readers want one click to go to a broad category, is my feeling, and ideally direct from the home page. Then a very small number of filters/sort parameters, ideally graphic and colourful.

The problem is, while Premiere Readers, which most of us authors have access to, can use the advanced search features not available to the majority of readers. Those those readers, the only 'search' option is the tags, which restricts how much they can access. That's why a tag like "Sports" or even "football" (which kind, by the way) are beneficial for many readers.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Yes, but others on this thread have been talking about using M/m for no-sex stories.

A better option would be to add non-sexual "gay" and "lesbian" tags, while leaving the "MM" and "FF" for sexual content.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

No solution will be perfect for everyone. But why not try and work within the present system. I have noticed that Laz is constantly trying to improve the system's performance.

That's the whole point. Lazeez is the one offering to expand the list of tags to attract more readers, so it's his option. He was the one proposing the new, detailed sports tags. If he thinks it'll help the site, it's not really our purview to stand in his way. However, we're merely discussing how BIG an impact we'd expect it to have, but then, we aren't the one getting the request from readers.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

A better option would be to add non-sexual "gay" and "lesbian" tags, while leaving the "MM" and "FF" for sexual content.


Mm doesn't have to be gay when it's not sexual. That's the point.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Daydreamz

@Crumbly Writer

The Category Search you mean? That's for non-premier members? I think that's awesomely powerful (in fact to start with I thought that must be the Advanced one), then the Advanced is icing on the cake.

Still, if you aimed to design a highly usable search facility, as opposed to exhaustive, I think you'd end up with something a bit different. Very different, even.

Of course Lazeez might not have that ambition, in the same way as the site chooses not to use Google to find readers, as we've discussed before.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Daydreamz

Of course Lazeez might not have that ambition, in the same way as the site chooses not to use Google to find readers, as we've discussed before.


the site chooses not to use google to find readers? how does that work?

Replies:   Daydreamz
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Yes, but others on this thread have been talking about using M/m for no-sex stories.


True, but I was focusing on how to use the search page to locate what you were talking about. All this does is highlight you can use the categories for such stories, if you wish to.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@DerAndy


So, are there no stories with M/M content without sex? Or are people who are squishy about it just not warned?


There are no male male stories that don't include sex as per the tags, at this time.

Capt Zapp

@Switch Blayde

I remember posting a no-sex story. None of the story codes fit because it wasn't a sex story. But the Wizard required me to have at least one


Perhaps the solution could be to add 'Platonic' to the available story codes.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Lazeez is the one offering to expand the list of tags to attract more readers, so it's his option. He was the one proposing the new, detailed sports tags.


Actually, it was Awnlee Jawking who proposed the new detailed sports tag, not Lazeez.

Lazeez is prepared to add new codes if an author or reader can justify it to him, I know, having put forwards such requests in the past and had them accepted, and also had some rejected.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Capt Zapp


Perhaps the solution could be to add 'Platonic' to the available story codes.


Except my no-sex stories are not platonic.

I went back to check. I only have 2 no-sex stories. One is "mt/ft romantic" and the other is simply "romantic."

So, as usual, my memory failed me again. When I had to choose only one, it wasn't "MF". It was "romantic." But although the story had a romantic ending, it wasn't a romantic story. It was about an ex-soldier suffering through the scars of war. (I don't think "military" was an option when I posted the story, but it's not a military story either.)

I'm not a big no-sex story reader or writer on SOL so it doesn't really matter to me. I was simply raising some points.

Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

I remember posting a no-sex story. None of the story codes fit because it wasn't a sex story. But the Wizard required me to have at least one so I chose M/F because the two characters were male and female.


You could have selected fiction from the story types instead.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

True, but I was focusing on how to use the search page to locate what you were talking about.


I was focusing on how using it for no sex stories brakes the existing search tools. That there is a multi step work around isn't relevant to the point I was making.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

I was focusing on how using it for no sex stories brakes the existing search tools. That there is a multi step work around isn't relevant to the point I was making.


Not really, a work around is only needed if you want to mix different category searches. You want a list of no sex stories, then just select the no sex option and that's what you get. If you want a bunch of other categories to include sex, and then just one set of categories as only no sex, then you need to do them as two searches, that's all.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

If you want a bunch of other categories to include sex, and then just one set of categories as only no sex, then you need to do them as two searches, that's all.


You're still missing the point. In what universe do you imagine that people using category exclusions to avoid sexual squicks would be willing to go to that level of effort?

The point is, if you use a major sexual squick tag like M/M on a no-sex story for different reasons, people who might otherwise like your story will never know it exists.

Daydreamz

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

the site chooses not to use google to find readers? how does that work?


I don't know how it works :) I've mentioned before by webmaster message that SOL stories don't turn up in Google searches unless you absolutely nail it to the wall with a long text string in quotes. CW mentioned it suits him to have his circulation limited in scope, tho for a rank amateur like me the more readers the merrier. I assumed it was a policy.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Daydreamz

I don't know how it works :) I've mentioned before by webmaster message that SOL stories don't turn up in Google searches unless you absolutely nail it to the wall with a long text string in quotes.


Oh, ok. Well, believe me, it's not by choice.

SOL is penalized by Google's algorithm (starting on Sept 1st, 2014) and I have no concrete clue why. I tried hiring some SEO companies to figure it out and was turned down each and every time. I was told that they won't touch it with a 10 foot pole after they do a cursory crawl of the site. Technically, everything is good. I don't have any Google-upsetting errors in the site's engine.

Every SEO company asked me for my Google analytics account to check what's going on and when I tell them that I don't have one because I don't want anybody to track site members on the site to preserve their privacy, they laugh at me and they tell me they can't do much for me.

Although, honestly, I'm gonna start giving up on the privacy thing soon. At the moment 45.05% of the site's visitors use Google's Chrome to browse the site and another ~10 are on Android without chrome. I don't how many other members have Google's Tool bar installed or are using Google's DNS server. All these things give Google a very good idea of what you do on the internet despite my stance on the issue. So my concern for those particular people's privacy is pointless.

Also, another issue for Google might be the lack of ads on SOL. Why would google's engine send people to a site that doesn't patronize google's system with anything? No data and no money for google from SOL...

I don't show people ads and I don't sell out their data to search engines; well, you might be right, maybe Google's suppression of SOL has something to do with my choices after all.

Ernest Bywater

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Google analytics account


Google Analytics is one of the first things security people recommend people block when they set up a new browser that has blocking capability, so I'm not sure what help that gives Google about people who have any sense of security or privacy, but there are so many who don't so it must be profitable enough for them.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Mm doesn't have to be gay when it's not sexual. That's the point.

The only distinction between an "adult male" and a "juvenile male", in regard to the story tags, is whether they're having sex or not. After all, you don't mark an additional "M" or "F" for every character in the story do you? Instead, you only designate it for those involved in the primary sexual relationship. That runs counter to your suggestion you flag non-sex stories as "MM", "Ff" or "mGopher".

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Daydreamz
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


Although, honestly, I'm gonna start giving up on the privacy thing soon. At the moment 45.05% of the site's visitors use Google's Chrome


Ah, I see your problem. It's a personal thing but FWIW I chill about Google and their ads, myself. I use gmail, android, Maps and the whole amazing free thing, and love it. I buy a tractor, or look at one, and Lo I get tractor ads. It doesn't make me buy any more tractors :)

Other people get creeped out by it, I appreciate, but it's very limiting if you try to fight it. Same thing happens on FB, YT and everywhere of course. I got used to it, and so far it doesn't hurt.

Also it occurs to me to wonder how many members/readers do NOT visit other sex-oriented sites that have the full Analytics loaded, and ads?

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

Instead, you only designate it for those involved in the primary sexual relationship. That runs counter to your suggestion you flag non-sex


For no-sex stories, you need to take out the word "sexual" in your statement. Then the Mm code works for a story about a teen boy and some adult male who's like a father figure to him. The story would be about their relationship not sex.

You keep making my point. The codes are viewed as having to do with sex (even though there are no-sex stories on the site). So MM is gay. Interracial is sex between races. Now "slavery" says "sexual or otherwise."

I wonder if someone not familiar with SOL, who was on Finestories and saw Mm on a story, would think of it as gay or a relationship between an adult male and boy.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

I wonder if someone not familiar with SOL, who was on Finestories and saw Mm on a story, would think of it as gay or a relationship between an adult male and boy.


Finestories doesn't have any of the gender/age codes available. If such a person did see a story coded that way, they probably wouldn't know what to make of it at all.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Daydreamz

I got used to it, and so far it doesn't hurt.


So far.

The thing is, nobody knows what the future may bring. Legal activities that you take for granted today may become illegal tomorrow and may land you in hot water.

If the left keeps encroaching on more freedoms in the US, would you want your future government to have a clear and concise record of every activity you've done online?

Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

Finestories doesn't have any of the gender/age codes available. If such a person did see a story coded that way, they probably wouldn't know what to make of it at all.


I didn't know that. I just checked the codes on Finestories. Nothing like the ones on SOL.

So I'll say it again, the codes on SOL are geared towards sex stories. To use them for no-sex stories is a stretch.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
docholladay

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

The thing is, nobody knows what the future may bring. Legal activities that you take for granted today may become illegal tomorrow and may land you in hot water.


Thank you for protecting our right to privacy. Heck I am sure if anyone here was actively encouraging illegal activities or behavior we all would gladly turn those in to the law.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

I am sure if anyone here was actively encouraging illegal activities or behavior we all would gladly turn those in to the law.


Illegal under whose law. Many things legal in the US are illegal in China or Iran, so where do you draw the line?

awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

Please let's not act like adults or one day we might be stoned to death for adultery :)

AJ

docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

Illegal under whose law.


In my personal way of looking at Law, its the difference between "Right and Wrong". We can all tell those differences. That is where I draw my lines, not what the politicians tell me the law is.

Daydreamz

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

would you want your future government to have a clear and concise record of every activity you've done online?

It wouldn't be a problem, but if they did decide to get me for my stories on here, and they had a legal basis, I imagine they could have a court order you to hand over my IP address? I don't think they'd be going to Google.

But I don't see any legislation being retrospective, just as the 14 age law in Canada still allows you to publish sub-14 stories written earlier.

So for me personally I'd be glad for you to get advertising, add colour, get SEO'd, add readers and make as much money as you can for all your hard work. It's just how it works these days.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Capt Zapp  Argon
Dominions Son

@Daydreamz

So for me personally I'd be glad for you to get advertising, add colour


As long a premium members can elect to go add free, go for it.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz

@Dominions Son


As long a premium members can elect to go add free, go for it.

Fair point. F1fanatic does it like that, and Google loves that site. In fact their code would be worth a look maybe.

Capt Zapp

@Daydreamz

I prefer the simplicity. Start adding color and advertisements and all the other junk and it drives up bandwidth usage. It's bad enough that my ISPs suck and have some of the worst (95% of ISPs are better according to pingtest) service without adding all the fluff to make things even slower.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz

@Capt Zapp

Have you tried using Opera browser? Its adblocker makes quite a difference.

Replies:   Capt Zapp
Crumbly Writer

@Daydreamz

Also it occurs to me to wonder how many members/readers do NOT visit other sex-oriented sites that have the full Analytics loaded, and ads?

I NEVER visit adult sites with ads, as they're notoriously obnoxious, full of viruses and malware, and are more interested in catering to special interests than their customers. I DON'T want to see SOL go down that route. However, if Lazeez eventually concludes he needs to include Google Analytics (which I've used for years, though I ALWAYS disable their ability to track me), I wouldn't blame him for the choice.

By the way, years ago you used to get meaningful data from GA, nowadays, you only learn where the naive reside. Too many Governments use GA, among other tools, to track the actions of the citizens.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

So I'll say it again, the codes on SOL are geared towards sex stories. To use them for no-sex stories is a stretch.

And as I said previously, I can see adding "gay", "lesbian" and "trans", to describe non-sexual relationships, but there's absolutely no requirement to label stories with an older man's attraction to younger boys. You've got this backwards. "Mm" does not describe supportive behavior.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

but there's absolutely no requirement to label stories with an older man's attraction to younger boys. You've got this backwards. "Mm" does not describe supportive behavior.


Who said anything about attraction? The plot I used in my example was a man taking a boy under his wings. Could be a coach or a priest or a parole officer or a teacher. Think of the relationship between Pop Warner and Jim Thorpe. Or the priest and boy in "Boys Town."

Replies:   Dominions Son
Daydreamz

@Crumbly Writer

I NEVER visit adult sites with ads


I suspect you may be in a minority :)

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

GA, nowadays, you only learn where the naive reside.


So, the majority of Americans then. :)

Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

Could be a coach or a priest or a parole officer or a teacher. Think of the relationship between Pop Warner and Jim Thorpe. Or the priest and boy in "Boys Town."


And there are a lot of readers who might be interested in such a story who use Mm as a category exclusion. You will likely lose far more readers than you gain tagging such a story as Mm.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Capt Zapp

@Daydreamz

Have you tried using Opera browser? Its adblocker makes quite a difference.


If I'm not mistaken, adblockers only block them from being displayed, which means the bandwidth is still used to get it to your computer, you just don't see it. I have a good one on Waterfox.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

And there are a lot of readers who might be interested in such a story who use Mm as a category exclusion. You will likely lose far more readers than you gain tagging such a story as Mm.


True.

I didn't know Finestories had a different set of story codes. Maybe instead of the Submission Wizard blacking out some codes it should bring up the Finestories set of codes when the story is no-sex. And when you do a Category Search, if you choose no-sex you get the Finestories set of codes to choose from.

Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

Submission Wizard blacking out some codes it should bring up the Finestories set of codes when the story is no-sex


What I'd like to see, once Lazeez gets the unified submission wizard done, is both sites draw from the same set of codes, but the ones not allowed on that site aren't shown. At the moment there are some codes on one that aren't on the other, and I don't refer to just the sex related codes. I'd also like to see the groupings the same, but it'll take time.

ustourist

@Switch Blayde

That site difference brings up another can of worms. If I recall correctly, Lazeez said he was hoping to migrate all the No Sex stories from SOL to FS over time.
If there is a totally different set of codes, migrating stories could lead to miscoding of the FS stories, which wouldn't benefit anyone.
Your suggestion may actually reduce that happening with any new non sex stories posted to SOL, though older ones could still create inaccuracies when transferred.

Although I agree with you that Mm doesn't have t be sexual and could be important as a main focus of a story, maybe "mentor" could be added to distinguish the non sex ones....mentor Ff... There are quite a few stories with a strong element of mentoring and no sex.

Not_a_ID

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

The thing is, nobody knows what the future may bring. Legal activities that you take for granted today may become illegal tomorrow and may land you in hot water.

If the left keeps encroaching on more freedoms in the US, would you want your future government to have a clear and concise record of every activity you've done online?


A little from column A and some more column B. It's actually more of a "during the reign of the NEXT King" concern about precedents being set rather than the current group of Yahoos. "The Left" is no more a monolithic entity than "The Right" is.

20 to 30 years ago, most leftists, and in particular feminists, would have likely been all for prohibition of pornographic content. These days, most self-identified leftists are probably more likely to be fully supportive of pornographic content, so long as the involved parties are informed and consenting to it. (With the implied parts of being of an age or mental state where consent can be given) This kind of position is also supported by many members of the current wave of feminism, in case you haven't noticed, they're fully supportive of women "expressing themselves" however they please. So if Kim Kardashian wants to post naked pictures of herself everywhere, she should be able to do so.

In that respect, it isn't the lefties that concern me directly in regards to my pornography and erotica consumption. What does concern me is that leftists in general are more focused on groups than they are individual rights. In that focused zeal for pursuing their utopian ideal, they're the ones most aggressively working to erode away protections focused on individuals in favor of some vague amorphous group.

And it is after they've battered down all of those personal protections that things get scary. Particularly once the pendulum swings back the other direction and a religious "moral majority" comes in behind that liberal/socialist movement and retakes the reigns of power. As they(the liberals) will have created all of the legal tools and precedents needed to make life Hell for those who don't conform to THEIR(the religious arch-conservative) vision.

Switch Blayde

@ustourist

Mm doesn't have t be sexual and could be important as a main focus of a story, maybe "mentor" could be added to distinguish the non sex ones....mentor Ff... There are quite a few stories with a strong element of mentoring and no sex.


Again, that's my point. We're trying to fit a set of codes created for sex stories to no-sex stories. The only choice today is to code it Mm or leave it out even if that's what the story is about.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

The only choice today is to code it Mm or leave it out even if that's what the story is about.


If there is a significant reader base for that kind of story, maybe it calls for a Big Brother/Big Sister tag.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son


If there is a significant reader base for that kind of story, maybe it calls for a Big Brother/Big Sister tag.


It was just one example. My other one was interracial. I don't want to go through the codes, but there are probably more.

Finestories came up with a set of no-sex story codes. It was smart not to force-feed the SOL ones on it's no-sex stories.

sejintenej

@Crumbly Writer

By the way, years ago you used to get meaningful data from GA, nowadays, you only learn where the naive reside. Too many Governments use GA, among other tools, to track the actions of the citizens.

I don't know how good they are in the US but the last time I took a look they said I was about 150 miles from where I was living at the time. They had located my ISP's HQ

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Daydreamz

@Capt Zapp

If I'm not mistaken, adblockers only block them from being displayed, which means the bandwidth is still used to get it to your computer,

Opera speeds things up quite a bit for me. It works by the browser not calling the ad content, so it must cut bandwidth use. Not sure about Waterfox though.

Replies:   Capt Zapp  Not_a_ID
Capt Zapp

@Daydreamz

Will DL it and give it a go. I am always running out of bandwidth before the end of the month so hopefully it helps.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@sejintenej


I don't know how good they are in the US but the last time I took a look they said I was about 150 miles from where I was living at the time. They had located my ISP's HQ


That's due to them keying off the ICANN registry information for that IP address. Your ISP owns that address, not you. So for most GEO IP projects, they'll key it to the best information that your ISP makes available.

Not_a_ID

@Daydreamz

Opera speeds things up quite a bit for me. It works by the browser not calling the ad content, so it must cut bandwidth use. Not sure about Waterfox though.


Just skipping the step of rendering the content can make a big difference. Google Ads aren't too bad about this, but a lot of other advertising services out there are usually the single worst contributors to slow page load times on just about any website out there. Particularly if you're going to "off brand" websites that try for advertisers who'll pay them more per impression/click-through.

Besides the increased hazard of browser hijack via banner ad. You contend with ad-servers that will often be overburdened with demand vs capacity to meet that demand. As having more than ample ad-server capacity isn't a concern for the banner-ad service, its one less expense for them to carry.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz

@Not_a_ID

Yep no coincidence Google search started penalising slow page load times ;)

Anyway as I said I embrace tracking and advertising, in exchange for all the free wonderfulness. Some sites overdo it and are almost unusable in Chrome, but mostly it's fair enough.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Daydreamz

I embrace tracking and advertising, in exchange for all the free wonderfulness.


I'll let you, but I hate that garbage because we pay for every dang MB of upload and download so every add I can stop dead before it's called saves me money.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz

@Ernest Bywater

we pay for every dang MB of upload and download


Ah well that would make a difference, indeed. Mine and I'd say probably most connections here in the UK are unlimited.

Anyway from Lazeez' point of view with Google ranking it's impressive that he cares about our privacy with such integrity, but I'd suggest the way of the world now is we get tracked and our ads get tailored.

Also, getting back to where I came in, I think there's a role for 1-click search facility, more graphical and usable. The key metric, for me, is the difference in reads between stories that are on the front pages and those that have to be found by search, and at the moment it looks quite a big difference, because with so many tags it's more powerful than usable.

If Google would find them too then so much the better of course.

Argon

@Daydreamz

You know, some of us are using mobile devices too. Every ad brings you closer to your volume limit after which everything slows to a crawl. I don't want to pay for additional volume just to watch fucking ads.

Crumbly Writer

@ustourist

That site difference brings up another can of worms. If I recall correctly, Lazeez said he was hoping to migrate all the No Sex stories from SOL to FS over time.

He's not planning to remove no-sex stories from SOL, merely automatically cross-post no-sex stories to FS.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

He's not planning to remove no-sex stories from SOL, merely automatically cross-post no-sex stories to FS.


True, but the fact that the FS story codes are very different from the SOL story codes is going to complicate doing it.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

True, but the fact that the FS story codes are very different from the SOL story codes is going to complicate doing it.


Apart from the sex related codes, most of the codes are the same, but there are some on one not on the other. Which is why I see a unified code list and presentation as part of the unified uploading Wizard, and probably part of what's taking ti so long.

docholladay

The thing is to help make the system work without destroying everything.

The gender related codes can also mean relationships between characters with or without being sexual activities. The "Sex Contents" field can indicate whether it is a sexually related code or not for example. Romantic interactions can fit all the possible gender related groupings.

I am not saying that is a perfect example. But instead of looking at why the tags will not work. How about looking for ways to make them work.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@docholladay

The gender related codes can also mean relationships between characters with or without being sexual activities. The "Sex Contents" field can indicate whether it is a sexually related code or not for example. Romantic interactions can fit all the possible gender related groupings.


The problem is that an number of those gender related codes represent major squick items. Reading a non sexual romance involving such gender combinations would be equally uncomfortable for those squicked by the sexual activities.

However, using them for non-romantic and non-sexual relationship up-thread, and I my opinion, that would cause more problems than it solves.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Dominions Son

The problem is that you along with a lot of others are asking the wrong set of questions.

Instead of asking "What will not work?" how about asking "How do I make the existing tools work?".

Figure out how to work with the existing tools first then add to them only if and when required.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@docholladay

Instead of asking "What will not work?" how about asking "How do I make the existing tools work?".


The existing tools (category search and category exclusion) can't work if you start overloading squick codes for use on no-sex stories.

Category exclusion in particular would require a major re-write.

Without that re-write, anyone who uses a squick code on a no-sex story is drastically limiting the potential reader base for their story for no good reason.

Replies:   docholladay
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

as in: a plant or animal that is different in a noticeable way from other plants or animals of the same type. Could take a lot of work to do that.

No, as in Quiddich. Unfortunately, fiction takes time, especially to get it right. However, if you managed to play it just right, you give someone a world to absorb them for a couple hours. ;D

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

No, as in Quiddich.


As an attempt to devise a plausible sport, Quidditch is laughable. However as a hook to hang multiple side plots, it serves its purpose.

AJ

docholladay

@Dominions Son

Category exclusion in particular would require a major re-write.


Okay who will do that rewrite and under what correct standards. Is it you or do you have someone else in mind to do that so you can blame them for it not working.

What I have tried to say is make the existing tools work. That "Sex content" field is a great tool, but only if you are willing to use it.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@docholladay


Okay who will do that rewrite and under what correct standards. Is it you or do you have someone else in mind to do that so you can blame them for it not working.


Lazeez would have to do the re-write. I rather doubt he would want to which is why what you are suggesting is a bad idea.


What I have tried to say is make the existing tools work. That "Sex content" field is a great tool, but only if you are willing to use it.


You are missing the point, whether you want to or not, you can't use the sex content field with the existing category exclusion tool in the user profile. That tool is there for squick avoidence.

It filters all stories with any of the selected code out of all story lists on the site (new stories, updated stories, all stories, author pages, search results).

MM is a major squick for a lot of readers. If you post a no sex non romance story and code it MM, any reader who has selected MM for category exclusion in their profile will never know your story exists.

The problem is you keep looking at it from the perspective of someone looking to find sex + some code.

You also need to look at it from the perspective of people looking to avoid some code that is traditionally used mark some sexual squick, and how the existing tools will work for them if you start using that code for no sex stories.

If you are willing to forgo the large base of potential readers who use category exclusions fine, but understand that even if they might be interested in your story, they will never know it exists.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay
Updated:

@Dominions Son


Lazeez would have to do the re-write. I rather doubt he would want to which is why what you are suggesting is a bad idea.


Why do you think I keep saying we all both the readers and the writers have to find a way to make the existing tags work. He has a ton of work just keeping the site going and growing.

The only possible solution which might require special coding to be added is to key the filters off the "Sex Content" field. That way readers and/or writers could either block or allow whatever tags based on the "sex content" field. (Not perfect)

Users would have to set their filters up for each area based on the "Sex Content" field or just get everything listed without filters. The key field would become the "Sex Content" line. Both users and writers could code both ways using that line as a foundation filter.

edited to add: Regardless of the eventual solution. There will be those who will be unhappy with the setup.

Dominions Son

@docholladay

The only possible solution which might require special coding to be added is to key the filters off the "Sex Content" field. That way readers and/or writers could either block or allow whatever tags based on the "sex content" field. (Not perfect)


It's the only possible solution period. Unless all the authors who want to do what you want to do are willing to simply blow off all the readers who use category exclusions.

Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

The only possible solution which might require special coding to be added is to key the filters off the "Sex Content" field.


You can do this already. When running a search with the Category Search page you can select what levels of sex activity to include, and what aren't included are excluded from the results. Also, if you have a Premier Account there's a page in the Account Settings where you can set categories to be excluded from what you see anywhere on the site.

docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

You can do this already. When running a search with the Category Search page you can select what levels of sex activity to include, and what aren't included are excluded from the results. Also, if you have a Premier Account there's a page in the Account Settings where you can set categories to be excluded from what you see anywhere on the site.


True. What is creating the problem seems to be the filtering of the updates and new story lists where some want to combine the filters into one master set. I for one can't see that happening easily. The search is another story its already setup so selective searches are simple at least with a premier membership. In fact one Master list that will totally cover all areas seems to be in the area of "ONE MAJOR HEADACHE". There are just too many differences in opinion as to what is acceptable for both. Personally I believe its going to be a problem the individual reader will have to solve.

I have an advantage in the fact I don't filter to start with based on the tags. I have found that there are some good stories that hit my squick factor, but usually I will just fast forward through those sections.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

You can do this already.


For a category search, if you are willing to go to the trouble of a two pass search.

However, you can not do that with the category exclusions in the user profile.

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@docholladay


What is creating the problem seems to be the filtering of the updates and new story lists where some want to combine the filters into one master set.


This will work only for those with a Premier account, and if the filtering upsets them enough, then they need only pay for the service by getting a Premier Account.

Home Page - My Account (near top right corner) - Edit Category Exclusion Preferences (near the bottom of the list under Premier Preferences) - this will open a page much like the Category Search page in it shows all the categories. However, at the top of the page is a list of where you want it to apply. You tick where you want the exclusions to be applied, then go down through the list to tick the categories you want excluded. Here's the list of the places it can be applied to:

New stories pages (New Stories)

Updated stories pages (Updates)

Category Search results pages (Category Search)

Search results pages (Advanced Search)

Random Story Mechanism (Front Page)

Rising Stars List (library)

Make the selections you want excluded, and where, then save, and it works automatically after that.

edit to add: You can also add a sex related limit with the Access Level preference every account can use to filter out stories with characters under 13 years of age.

Replies:   docholladay
Switch Blayde

I'm sorry I brought the no-sex story code list up. I wasn't using a real life example. I made up two examples that hypothetically could cause a problem. One happened to be a squick code so this discussion got way out of hand.

My only point was that on SOL we're using codes designed for one purpose to be used for another. I didn't know that FS came up with different codes. FS solved the problem. Unfortunately, SOL isn't using those codes for no-sex stories.

But it's really not a big deal. The majority of stories on SOL are sex stories so the codes fit most.

docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

I see all the new and updated stories anyway, since I don't use filters to block them from the lists. What others want to do is to combine all their separate filter settings into one master filter.

docholladay

@Switch Blayde

That is why I stress the fact that its the readers who have to decide whether they want to chance missing a good story or not. Sure writers want more readers but when readers filter based on squick tags some stories will be blocked from the lists. its not the writers fault or the site's. It is the reader's fault for being narrow minded and wanting everything on a silver platter.

docholladay
Updated:

Its like those utilities that will block access based on key words or other things in the site codes. Problem is as follows:

Parents have to download and install.

Parents have to set the parental password(override).

Parents have to pick which filters to use.

Critical part is the Password (override), many will not be able to remember them (being nice). Many will not write them down for safe keeping. So usually the only ones knowing and remembering passwords are the kids. So parents blame the site for allowing their kids, using their computers, to log onto the adult sites. its the parents fault not the site.

edited to add: In the words of one parent when I ran a BBS back in the 80's: "Block my kids, but don't you dare block my access." Using the same login name and password.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

FS solved the problem. Unfortunately, SOL isn't using those codes for no-sex stories.


The majority of the FS codes are duplicated on SoL, but the sex related codes aren't duplicated on FS. However, there are a few of the no-sex related codes that are on one and not the other, but not many.

The task ahead for Lazeez, as I see it, is to come up with a unified list that incorporates all the codes in a reasonable manner, and then have them grouped (which he already does) with a notation on each group as to what sites they relate to. Say a group and notation like below:

Story Types (all sites)

Sexual Orientation (SoL only)

and so on down the list

docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

Story Types (all sites)

Sexual Orientation (SoL only)

and so on down the list


That might work out. Although I can already imagine the complaints from those who will never be satisfied.

Now me, I am grateful just to have a great set of story sites to go and find all kinds of stories. Hopefully I have expressed my gratitude properly to everyone for sharing all the stories I enjoy so much. I never got into TV or Movies or such, reading has always been both my source of learning and entertainment.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

That might work out.


I'll work with what's here to use, but I would appreciate being able to upload a new story into one wizard, tick the codes and sites it's suitable for, and be done. Right now every no-sex story is uploaded twice, and every no-sex sci-fi story is uploaded three times. The difference in the no sex codes between the sites means I have to tick different codes for each site, and that's annoying. However, fixing this is on Lazeez' agenda, just not sure when.

docholladay
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


I'll work with what's here to use, but I would appreciate being able to upload a new story into one wizard, tick the codes and sites it's suitable for, and be done.


Best idea yet. I love that idea, now if everyone could only join in on it as a solution. Although like I mentioned before, someone will hate the idea.

edited to add: Over the years I have seen many underage storytellers lie about their age just to post stories online. Thankfully now there are well designed alternatives available at least 2 of which should get them the helpful feedback they need to develop the gift.

Replies:   Dominions Son
awnlee jawking

@docholladay

In the words of one parent when I ran a BBS back in the 80's: "Block my kids, but don't you dare block my access." Using the same login name and password.


That's why the UK's new anti-porn regime is so badly thought out. Opting into or out of porn is at the ISP level, so if you want to watch adult vids but keep your kids safe, you're screwed.

AJ

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@awnlee jawking

Opting into or out of porn is at the ISP level, so if you want to watch adult vids but keep your kids safe, you're screwed.


Proxies are your friend. Of course, your children have that same option as well.

Dominions Son

@docholladay

I love that idea, now if everyone could only join in on it as a solution. Although like I mentioned before, someone will hate the idea.


As long as there is no overloading of the codes intended for sex stories, I'm in.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


The majority of the FS codes are duplicated on SoL,


Not from what I saw. There may be a few that overlap, but they look different to me. I just went to the SOL Submission Wizard for a no-sex story.

Interracial is available on SOL, but not FS. That was one of my two hypothetical examples.

None of the gender relationships are available on FS, but are on SOL. That was my other example.

The Sexual Orientation codes available on SOL are not available on FS. (Remember, I clicked on no-sex in the Wizard.)

None of the Levels of Consent codes are available on FS. There are 7 on SOL for no-sex stories.

Etc.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Ernest Bywater

Right now every no-sex story is uploaded twice, and every no-sex sci-fi story is uploaded three times. The difference in the no sex codes between the sites means I have to tick different codes for each site, and that's annoying. However, fixing this is on Lazeez' agenda, just not sure when.


Alright, it's time that I answer this thread to clear things up.

1 - There will be no addition to the 'Category exclusion preference' to add sex contents as option. Sex contents field apply to all stories, it is kind of on top of the categories themselves. So if I combine them, I'll end up with a lot of problems of premier members/authors losing stories due to changing tags sex contents etc... I deal at least with one member a day that has lost something due to authors updating their stories codes. I don't need the headache of something that would multiply the chance of the member not understanding what's going on.

2 - When I do create the 'story server' that will serve stories to all sites from one repository, all the tags/genres/sex contents will be managed by that server, so all the tags will need to get harmonized. The wizard will have to be redesigned to work with that server. I'm not sure that I will make a step to tick which site a story appears on. The way I envisioned it would be to handle it automatically. If the author chooses 'no-sex', then they'll be presented with all the tags that apply to no sex stories and the story will appear on SOL and FS automatically. If the story has sex, then it won't appear on FS. If the story includes any of the science fiction tags, then it will appear on Scifistories.com automatically. I have one more domain ready to host sex stories and that won't show 'no sex' stories.

Although, to tell the truth, I think I'll need to hire some programmers to handle those changes as my life has gotten too complicated and too busy to be able to program such a monumental project on my own within reasonable time. Even using SOL's code as a starting point, the specific code required to create a multi-site contents server will be huge and will take me years of work on my own. But of course that will take a bigger budget than what the site can support.

I'm currently focusing on a project that should be announced soon (next few months). It should make authors happy.

Switch Blayde

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Even using SOL's code as a starting point, the specific code required to create a multi-site contents server will be huge and will take me years of work on my own.


Is it worth doing? Will the benefits be that great to justify the expense and potential problems?

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Switch Blayde

Is it worth doing? Will the benefits be that great to justify the expense and potential problems?


Yes it is worth it. Keeping things in sync across three or more databases is a lot of work. Just ask Ernest.

And such a server will make more things even easier. Just like rewriting sol's engine to support multiple sites allowed scifistories to exist very easily and other future sites. Due to changes in search engines it's become better to have multiple specialized sites than one monolithic site like SOL. Also the need for apps necessitate the existence of such a server as a backend.

Dominions Son

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Although, to tell the truth, I think I'll need to hire some programmers to handle those changes as my life has gotten too complicated and too busy to be able to program such a monumental project on my own within reasonable time. Even using SOL's code as a starting point, the specific code required to create a multi-site contents server will be huge and will take me years of work on my own.


I don't have the time for it right now, but there are a number of users who have indicated IT experience at one point or another in the forums. You might want to consider asking for volunteers.

awnlee jawking
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I'm not sure that I will make a step to tick which site a story appears on.


That would be my preference. I would like to have full control over where my stories appear.

Is this an instance where you'd value author feedback before reaching a decision?

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


That would be my preference. I would like to have full control over where my stories appear.

Is this an instance where you'd value author feedback before reaching a decision?


I'd echo that choice (to allow individual author control on cross-site postings). Although I've got a few 'no-sex' stories, I'll sometimes rewrite a given chapter to include 'cleaner' curse words. I'm aware the site (FS) already does that for me, and in most cases that's fine, but in a few cases, I prefer a more 'hands on' approach.

By being able to 'opt out', that allows me to post my own version, rather than the same version of each site.

That said, given the huge time involvement required, if the first pass version of the changes didn't have this feature, I could definitely live with it. After all, worst case scenario, I'd post one version everywhere, then delete the FS version and repost my modified version.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

I'll sometimes rewrite a given chapter to include 'cleaner' curse words. I'm aware the site (FS) already does that for me,


My current YA novel was originally squeaky clean. I ended up adding some swear words, even the f-word, because the teenagers on wattpad said it would not be realistic to have it set in high school and not have swear words. I also added some teenage hormone-caused almost sex because of their feedback.

Swearing is acceptable if not expected today.

AmigaClone

@Ernest Bywater

Also I noticed a couple of older stories involving sport weren't found by the search because the stories predate the tag and don't have it.


I suspect that there might be more stories involving sports that don't have the code than those that do.

Just in the series "Take me out to the ballgame", "A Golfer's Dream" and "Playing the Game" are over 20 stories that could use the code. Dance of a Lifetime is another classic that is centered around ice dancing (and includes many competitions including three trips to the Olympics.)

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@AmigaClone


I suspect that there might be more stories involving sports that don't have the code than those that do.


One thing a reader can do is: Tell Lazeez about a story which should have a code and doesn't. He'll take action to have it fixed. He recognises this is an issue, and works to have it corrected.

the usual typo edit

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Ernest Bywater

One thing a reader can do is: Tell Lazeez about a story which should have a coed and doesn't.

I don't have a coed, a nice looking young female student, and would be happy to have one for a while. Lazeez the Magician should send me one before he fixes someone else.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
ustourist

@AmigaClone

You then get the problem of what is considered a sport by the author or the reader. If ice dancing is included, then why not ballroom dancing or even high school dances? I will let someone else argue the point on golf or bridge :)
I consider cricket a game, but Aussie rules football a sport, even though cricket has been an Olympic event whereas Aussie rules hasn't (as far as I know).
There are a lot of stories including martial arts at competition level, but should those show a sports tag?

Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

so I make the odd funny typo, sue me (no typo on that this time. )

Replies:   richardshagrin
Ernest Bywater

@ustourist

Olympic event whereas Aussie rules hasn't (as far as I know).


Demonstration sport at the 1956 Olympics

richardshagrin

@Ernest Bywater

If my postings were free of errors I might think about correcting some-one else's. No harm intended. It was intended to be funny. "Lazeez the Magician" is not exactly intended to be serious. You have to be at least 55 to live in my apartment building, please cancel sending the coed. Or is it co-ed?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
red61544

Lazeez has to be a magician. He makes one simple change to the site - limiting the number of codes - and he receives 204 "suggestions" on how to do it better! Imagine the number of "suggestions" he would receive if he were to again change scoring!

Richard, I'm in my 70's but live in an apartment which accepts all ages. I highly recommend it - watching the cute co-ed next door sunbathe on the balcony keeps me young (and happy)!

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@red61544

Imagine the number of "suggestions" he would receive if he were to again change scoring!


He has imagined it. That's precisely why he's vowed to never change the scoring system again.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

It was intended to be funny


I realised that, thus the sarcasm in my reply, but I forgot the sarky tags. believe me, if you ever offend me you'll know about when your computer vanishes in a cloud of smoke to be replaced by a large snake.

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

He has imagined it. That's precisely why he's vowed to never change the scoring system again.


Actually, he made the vow because of the avalanche of emails he got when he made past changes.

AmigaClone

@ustourist

You then get the problem of what is considered a sport by the author or the reader. If ice dancing is included, then why not ballroom dancing or even high school dances? I will let someone else argue the point on golf or bridge :)
I consider cricket a game, but Aussie rules football a sport, even though cricket has been an Olympic event whereas Aussie rules hasn't (as far as I know).
There are a lot of stories including martial arts at competition level, but should those show a sports tag?


In "Dance of a Lifetime" the main POV characters are ice dancers consider themselves to be athletes. That and the fact that they attend two Olympic events as athletes.

I will agree that there are some things that would normally be considered sports no matter what. Other activities (for instance ice dancing, golf, martial arts) would depend on how the author portrays them, and how important they are to the story as a whole.

Each of those activities might be considered sports in at least some point in some stories, in others just as a game or other activity. For instance, I consider Golf to be a sport in the three "A Golfer's Dream" stories. On the other hand, I only count it as a game in LA Fun.

Replies:   Capt Zapp
Capt Zapp

@AmigaClone

I consider Golf to be a sport in the three "A Golfer's Dream" stories. On the other hand, I only count it as a game in LA Fun.


I think it depends on whether it is being played for 'fun'. There are some things I see on the sport networks that I would never consider a sport. I mean really, POKER as a sport?

awnlee jawking

@Capt Zapp

I mean really, POKER as a sport?


It involves more activity than the sport of chess ;)

AJ

richardshagrin

@Capt Zapp

To help define Sport:
[spôrt]
NOUN
1.an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment:

"team sports such as baseball and soccer" ·
synonyms: (competitive) game(s) · physical recreation
2.
informal
a person who behaves in a good or specified way in response to teasing, defeat, or a similarly trying situation:
"go on, be a sport!" ·
3.
biology
an animal or plant showing abnormal or striking variation from the parent type, especially in form or color, as a result of spontaneous mutation.
VERB
1.wear or display (a distinctive or noticeable item):
"he was sporting a huge handlebar mustache"
synonyms: wear · have on · dress in · display · exhibit · show off ·
2.amuse oneself or play in a lively, energetic way:
"the children sported in the water"

Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press · Translation by Bing Translator

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@richardshagrin

1.an activity involving physical exertion


What about that Olympic sport where they push the thing on the ice with a broom? Curling? Physical exertion? Skill, yes. Physical activity, yes. Physical exertion, no.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@ustourist

I consider cricket a game, but Aussie rules football a sport, even though cricket has been an Olympic event whereas Aussie rules hasn't (as far as I know).
There are a lot of stories including martial arts at competition level, but should those show a sports tag?

The tag is for "Sports", a part-time athletic event, not "Olympic events". I'd object if the listed Bridge, since there's no physical activity, but I wouldn't even object to mumbly peg if the players were relatively dedicated to it's practice.

Participation in sports is more about training the mind and body, dedication and improving oneself, rather than being recognized by others.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Physical exertion, no.

The physical exertion are all the calories lost due to excessive shivering.

Gauthier
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


SOL is penalized by Google's algorithm


Maybe linked to authors alias, For instance if I do a search on /Al Steiner Greenies/ all I see are site linking to SOL. Nothing from SOL show up.

However there is an unrelated artist named A.L. Steiner and a notice which says:

"Some results may have been removed under data protection law in Europe"

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten for more information.

Which means that A.L. Steiner or a third party impersonating him probably abused that European Law to ban part of SOL.

I wonder what kind of search results you get in the US.

Now given the long history of author pseudonym being that of politician or preacher, I wonder if there is not a side effect.

Edit:

1 A search for

/site:storiesonline.net al Steiner Greenies/

show sol content, still with that odd warning, so it's not a de-listing as required by the european law. There is something fishy going on in the ranking that's for sure.

2 A search for /Steiner Greenies/ (no "Al") return the result on the 4th page.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Gauthier

There is something fishy going on in the ranking that's for sure.


It's an issue that started in September 2014. I did few wrong things at the same time that caused google's algorithm to mark SOL as low quality site.

At the time I was fixing the site's SEO stuff. Part of the SEO stuff is the URL format storiesonline.net/s/{story id}/{story url-encoded title}. While working on that, I inadvertently pushed the update to the live site before it was ready and all stories URLs got changed to storiesonline.net/s/{story id}/story-slug-goes-here. Once google saw that there are so many new URLs on the site it went on a crawl binge downloading an unprecedented 33,000 pages in one day (up from an average of 1500 pages per day). Since it had those stories already in its index, it marked all those new URLs as duplicates because I hadn't implemented the 301 redirect for those pages. Lots of duplicates are signs of a spammy site for Google.

Before that, in May of 2014, I was testing Google Analytics (GA) on the site to see if it provides me with additional info about referrals, so I put GA on the non-logged in portion of the site. Once you log in, no more GA. It turned out that was a very stupid thing to do, because to google, people came to SOL and then disappeared from google's view. That could mean they left. So it's a bounce in a way.

And the cherry on top of that was that for three months I tested using ads on google for SOL and when I didn't get more than one new registration per day from google's ads, I stopped them that same week. So three things happened on the last week of August 2014 that may have contributed to SOL's marking as a low quality site.

The site was getting 11,000 clicks with nearly 100,000 impressions according to Google Search Console (for webmasters) on August 31 2014. By September 5th 2014 the site was getting 3000 impressions and 1100 clicks strictly from people searching specifically for 'storiesonline' or 'storiesonline.net' or 'sex stories online net'.

We've recovered some since that sucky week, but we're nowhere near what a site of SOL's size, calibre and history should be. I've contacted several SEO companies for help and I've been declined each and every time when they do a test crawl of the site. I'm doing everything correctly but something in Google's algorithm is still blocking us. Maybe it is compounded by that Steiner block, I don't know. What I know is that I've been paying very close attention to any error reports on Google's end and so far we've only recovered to ~9000 daily impressions and 2000 clicks.

Switch Blayde

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I Googled "switch blayde". The first result is my ASSTR index page. The second result is my author's story page on SOL.

Then I Googled "switch blayde forced lust" (both with "forced lust" in quotes and without — made no difference). The first 2 results were ASSTR. What's odd is the 3rd result was SOL, but not the story. It was a review of the story. In fact, there was no link to the story on SOL.

I don't know if any of that is helpful, but I was curious. So since I had the findings I passed them along.

Ernest Bywater

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I just did a Google Search on "Ernest Bywater" and the first hit for SoL was my author page at SoL as number 40 while my author page at FS and SF were 3 & 4 (respectively) after my website and Lulu.

The same search on DuckDuckGo (DDG) has FS in 4th and SF in 6th but SoL not mentioned in the first 50 hits., and I didn't check the next 50 hits.

On a search "Ernest Bywater" "Finding Home" I got no SoL related hits in the first 50, but the DDG search turns up blog posts and forum posts from SoL in the first 50 hits, but not the story at SoL.

Similar type results when I change the story title to other stories.

Both Google and DDG seem to find it easier to search FS and SF than SoL, and when searching SoL they find the blogs and the forum easier to locate than the stories. Danged if I know what all that means.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Ernest Bywater

Both Google and DDG seem to find it easier to search FS and SF than SoL, and when searching SoL they find the blogs and the forum easier to locate than the stories. Danged if I know what all that means.


That's how you can tell that SOL is penalized by Google. DDG is a meta search engine, so it doesn't rank things itself, it polls other search engines for its results.

SOL has thousands of incoming links and it used to rank higher than FS on almost every search query. If there was no penalty, SOL would rank above FS for the same query and same contents as they both have the exact same engine and same SEO and SOL has way more incoming links that FS.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Gauthier
Ernest Bywater

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I'm glad you understand this, because I don't - all this SEO stuff came into the fore since I left the IT industry for retirement and writing. At that time good research involved a trip to the library and the technical book shop.

Gauthier
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Regarding SEO, as far as I can see, you did everything by the book.

The only real issues that I can see is the lack of https support.

Then there are potential issues:

- Having page indexed heavily linked for robots but not reachable once logged on (bytag navigation).

- The differing page and url content for robots and real users more specifically:

+ The synopsis is not loaded.

+ The robot version isn't paginated.

+ The differing url and the robot specific redirect:

Example:

Google know that visitors visit:

http://storiesonline.net/s/14387:180567;1 but his robots are redirect to

http://storiesonline.net/s/14387:180567/island-fever-6-sanctuary-chapter-1 which is much much bigger.

Google also know that nobody visit that page...

This is accepted behavior for site using ajax but you are not really doing that in a verifiable way from google perspective, so it could be contrived by google as trying to index content hidden from the user which would result in instant downgrade.

I'm not sure when you implemented the pagination feature instead of the artificial chapter 1A/1B/1C which was when the problem was introduced.

I'm also not sure and when google cracked down on the robot vs user discrepancy, but IIRC those checks started around 2008.

Effect of stories per day limits?

Gauthier

@Gauthier


- The differing page and url content for robots and real users more specifically:

+ The synopsis is not loaded.

+ The robot version isn't paginated.

+ The differing url and the robot specific redirect:


In support of that theory, search:

/Al Steiner Aftermath/ -> chapter 1 & 2 linked not paginated -> present 1st result

/Al Steiner Greenies/ -> only prologue linked paginated -> downgraded (absent)!

Of course, a more exhaustive search on ranking of /author title/ is needed to validate an effect of pagination.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Gauthier

Then there are potential issues:
- Having page indexed heavily linked for robots but not reachable once logged on (bytag navigation).
- The differing page and url content for robots and real users more specifically:


Could it be possible that Google's robot has an account on the site? And tests whether the logged in users see less?

As far as I know Google tests different user agent strings to test whether the site is doing something specific for its crawler vs normal browsers used by humans. While possible, it's very unlikely that Google has created an account on the site and tries pages as logged in as well as logged out to see the differences.

Google shouldn't penalize a site if it doesn't serve users the hidden code that Google relies on. Like the description, canonical and tags. Those are of zero benefit to humans and google relies on them to properly classify pages. Now google is asking webmasters to use javascript to classify their documents, so if I don't embed that code in pages served to logged in users I could get a penalty? Unlikely.

By the way, the pagination is going away now that we have much more bandwidth for the site.

Replies:   Gauthier  Gauthier  Gauthier
Gauthier
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I do not think that Google has an account, however it has metric of visited URL, certainly file size, word count, scroll height, etc... by normal visitors and the metric of the redirected URL doesn't match. It's far fetched as an explanation, but possible. And a known cause of lower ranking.

Gauthier

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

By the way, the pagination is going away now that we have much more bandwidth for the site.


Just to be on the safe side, I would put back the rest and toggle a class in JavaScript instead doing Ajax. Also be carefully to keep the same default state visible or hidden in the robot version

Gauthier
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


Google shouldn't penalize a site if it doesn't serve users the hidden code that Google relies on


It doesn't. The penalty comes if the document submitted for indexing has more visible content than the document viewed by regular visitor. Problem is that Google should have realised that the login state was different and may have missed that.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Gauthier

Unless Google has an account on the site and crawls the site while logged in or is using something other than its crawler to view the site (like collect what site members see when they use Chrome) there is no way for Google to see what logged in users see and compare vs the preview version of the site.

By the way, I just removed the paginator from stories. It used to save about 4% of bandwidth, but it's not needed anymore.

Replies:   awnlee jawking  Gauthier
awnlee jawking

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I just removed the paginator from stories


Aha, that explains it. When I started reading chapter 38 of Xalir's story, it had two pages allocated. When I clicked the link to go to the second page, I got the start of the chapter again, which now had only one page. Very confusing.

AJ

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

When I clicked the link to go to the second page, I got the start of the chapter again, which now had only one page. Very confusing.


An hour or two and those page links won't exist on the site anymore. As soon as everybody finishes reading the page they were on when I removed the function the links would be gone forever.

Temporary confusion, not a big deal.

Gauthier
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


like collect what site members see when they use Chrome


URL and extensive metric are collected, sufficient to see a discrepancy between visited page and indexed page, index bigger means intentional deceit of search engine and users by content stufing and problems...

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Gauthier

URL and extensive metric are collected, sufficient to see a discrepancy between visited page and indexed page, index bigger means problems...


We'll have to wait and see I guess. I've removed the paginator, so those links won't even show up to chrome users that Google spies on. For the single part stories, googlebot sees less than logged in users. If that's a problem in google's eyes, then too bad.

I never done SEO until 2014 and the site did well enough. I've grown tired of catering to google in the last two and a half years.

Google's webmaster guidelines say that you shouldn't do anything for google specifically and to treat googlebot like any site visitor. Do what makes good sense for your users.

But anybody that works on a CMS and cares about SEO knows that it's a bunch of bullshit.

For a problem free site in Google's eyes you have to do a lot of work. Half of the development time now is making sure that google doesn't get any duplicate pages or duplicate description or title tags that are too long or too short and making sure the canonical links (that users don't see or care about) are consistent and not create a loop and other bullshit that is only about pleasing google.

The following is what's on Google's HTML improvement suggestions for Webmasters:

HTML Improvements
Addressing the following may help your site's user experience and performance.

- Duplicate meta descriptions
- Long meta descriptions
- Short meta descriptions

- Missing title tags
- Duplicate title tags
- Long title tags
- Short title tags
- Non-informative title tags

No user sees the meta description. No user cares how long or short the meta description is or how long the title tag is. (among other things).

Can you tell I'm pissed off at Google?

Anyway, I've ranted enough.

Replies:   Gauthier
Gauthier

Any positive effect of the de-pagination will take a long time to manifest, I doubt the revision of ranking malus is done realtime

Gauthier

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

No user sees the meta description. No user cares how long or short the meta description is or how long the title tag is

Well, that's what is shown in a search result page...

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

@Gauthier


Well, that's what is shown in a search result page...


While that's generally true, it's not always the case. Even when it is, it's not really indicative of anything significant.

I've studied the descriptions displayed by Google vs the ones embedded in the pages referenced for the pages that rank higher than SOL and found no informative clues. Google ranks some really, really crappy pages above SOL on many queries, so it's not the description or if the description maters then its effect is on the order of 0.0001% of ranking signals.

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