Forum: Author Hangout

Trigger warnings?

Rodeodoc 🚫

I'm reading a story where the author has started a chapter with a trigger warning addressed to the readers. The story will include an account of a miscarriage. I suppose that might be upsetting to some who have experienced such an event, but the author has foreshadowed it in the previous 3 or 4 chapters. Are such internal statements necessary?

I'm working on a story that includes a suicide. No gory details. It's based on a true account in my life. When I started high school I hardly knew a soul, and on a Tuesday I asked a classmate if she would like to have coffee with me after the football game. She accepted. On Thursday, she locked herself in her garage, started up the car and died of carbon monoxide poisoning. She could have just said no. It scarred my psyche for a while. But I digress.

Should such an event be prefaced by a warning? I think nearly all of us have known someone or a family who has experienced such an event. But, without sounding callous, these events are part of life. Should a story hold a warning outside of the tags? Should stories become like the intro to most Amazon Prime movies: This show depicts instances of sex, smoking, profanity, and voting Conservative. Thus warning off those that are offended by such things. The smoking is a real warning by the way.

Inquiring minds want to know. I always appreciate the input of our talented cabal of authors.

BTW, it turned out the young lady in question was heavily involved in drugs, although none of her circle of friends or family were aware of it.

Replies: julka Pixy I Michael Loucks Pixy I Grey Wolf

julka 🚫

@Rodeodoc

Should a story hold a warning outside of the tags?

Legitimate question, what's the difference between a trigger warning and a tag in your mind? Like obviously the tag is part of a list etc etc but philosophically I think that tags and warnings are serving the same basic purpose of letting people filter content they're not interested in consuming. If there were a "miscarriage"
tag, would that be an issue?

Replies: Vincent Berg

Vincent Berg 🚫

@julka

Tags are tricky, as they either attract or repel (squick warnings, of topics readers would prefer to avoid: ex: rape, scat, etc.) readers.

Likewise, while a general tag warning won't apply to the whole story, a chapter alert tag specifically warns about in-chapter triggers. Which, just like squick tags, has contrasting functions, allowing readers with those triggers to continue reading, knowing they can avoid those specific triggers.

So it's not an unlabeled tag, they're usually duplicate localized tags. Well, that's the idea anyway, as not everyone uses tags as they were designed.

Pixy I 🚫

@Rodeodoc

This topic came up years ago, I can't remember the where or the when (other than it was in these forums). I only remember making some (most likely) sarcastic comment about humanity managing to exist quite happily without trigger warnings until recently (recently being the start of the 'woke era') for written literature.

Actually, now that I think about it, it was probably in a thread relating to story tags because I remember pointing out that when you buy a (fiction) book in the shops, there is not a list of story tags on the front.

Jeez could you imagine it? The Game of Thrones novels would just be a mass of tags on their covers, incest, MF, FF, Fm, Mf, tort, viol....

Replies: tendertouch Joe_Bondi_Beach

tendertouch 🚫

@Pixy I

Actually, now that I think about it, it was probably in a thread relating to story tags because I remember pointing out that when you buy a (fiction) book in the shops, there is not a list of story tags on the front.

That's true, and I've sworn off dead tree authors after being surprised before. Here, the tags are available so I expect authors to use them or otherwise alert the reader to likely trigger content. If they choose not to, then I tend to add the author to my exclusions list. There choice and my choice.

Replies: Pixy I

Pixy I 🚫

@tendertouch

That's true, and I've sworn off dead tree authors after being surprised before

Tom Holt writing as KJ Parker wrote some pretty horrific books, which were like a literary car crash. No warning, straight in there. In one he turned his child (I can't remember if it was his son or daughter) into a bow, which added new meaning to the title of the book 'The belly of the bow'.

There was other stuff as well, but I just skipped over it. It's my decision as to whether or not I am offended by the content and I chose not to be. There are other more important things to worry about than what happened to a fictional character in a book.

Replies: tendertouch

tendertouch 🚫

@Pixy I

It's my decision as to whether or not I am offended by the content and I chose not to be.

I'm not worried about being offended — that's not what I'm talking about when I talk about being triggered. I'm talking about suddenly being nauseous or having a rough time sleeping for a couple of weeks. We all have our own life experiences and mine, combined with my personality, mean some things do far more than offend me.

Joe_Bondi_Beach 🚫
Updated:

@Pixy I

I remember pointing out that when you buy a (fiction) book in the shops, there is not a list of story tags on the front.

Right. The difference is that for most of the readers and most of the storytellers on this site it is the act that counts, and it's all to the good when there's a story to go along with it. But given the focus on the acts, it makes sense to flag what to expect.

Yes, there are all sorts of minimal- or no-sex stories with high scores, but they are the exception that proves the rule. Even better, there are plenty of stories where the story is as important or more important, and told well, than the acts.

Since acts are attractive to some and off-putting to others it makes sense to flag them, and the stronger the act the more need for that flag.

"Game of Thrones" didn't need to flag the gore because it's woven into the story. Ditto for most other published (not self-published) fiction, although the review or the blurb may tell you what to expect.

~ JBB

(AKA Bondi Beach)

Replies: Pixy I palamedes

Pixy I 🚫

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

Yes, there are all sorts of minimal- or no-sex stories with high scores, but they are the exception that proves the rule.

My highest-scoring stories have no (or very little) sex. Not sure what that says about my writing ability, or at least, my ability to write sex stories....

(And no, for those who know, there are no plans anytime soon for an update to Beth, though an Anya update is currently being plotted).

Replies: Bondi Beach

Bondi Beach 🚫

@Pixy I

My highest-scoring stories have no (or very little) sex. Not sure what that says about my writing ability, or at least, my ability to write sex stories....

It suggests strong storytelling, to me.

~ JBB

palamedes 🚫

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

"Game of Thrones" didn't need to flag the gore because it's woven into the story. Ditto for most other published (not self-published) fiction, although the review or the blurb may tell you what to expect.

In the USA there was a title card showen or are displayed as an overlay in the upper corners at the start of a show. For Game of Thrones the codes displayed where

TV-MA - L - S or N - V

Age-Based Ratings

TV-Y: Suitable for all children, including ages 2–6; content is designed for a very young audience and is not expected to frighten children

TV-Y7: Designed for children age 7 and older who can distinguish make-believe from reality; may include mild comedic or fantasy violence

TV-Y7-FV: Indicates more intense or combative fantasy violence appropriate for children 7 and older

TV-G: Suitable for all ages, though not specifically made for children; contains little or no violence, strong language, or sexual content

TV-PG: May contain material parents might find unsuitable for younger children; parental guidance suggested

TV-14: Intended for viewers 14 and older; may include intense violence, sexual content, or strong language

TV-MA: Intended for mature audiences only; may include explicit sexual content, graphic violence, or crude language

Content Descriptors
These letters appear alongside the age rating to indicate specific content types:

D: Suggestive dialogue
L: Coarse or crude language
S: Sexual situations
V: Violence

N: The "S" code is not the only way nudity is indicated — in some cases, networks may also use the "N" descriptor (nudity)

Networks added the N code so they could label a show as TV-14 instead of TV-MA

Replies: TheDarkKnight

TheDarkKnight 🚫

@palamedes

I've noticed more and more shows and movies now include a warning for "smoking". Heaven forbid little Johnny or Mary should see adults lighting up and seeming to enjoy it. I don't remember seeing warnings for "drinking", but maybe I just haven't been paying attention.

Replies: AmigaClone palamedes Switch Blayde

AmigaClone 🚫

@TheDarkKnight

Sir Arthur Charles Clarke wrote a book in 1990 titled "The Ghost from the Grand Banks". One of the characters' had a job were they would edit old movies. This would include editing scenes which included people smoking. The final scenes would be nearly identical but without the characters smoking.

palamedes 🚫

@TheDarkKnight

I've noticed more and more shows and movies now include a warning for "smoking". Heaven forbid little Johnny or Mary should see adults lighting up and seeming to enjoy it. I don't remember seeing warnings for "drinking", but maybe I just haven't been paying attention.

I think the Government is still licking their wounds after
prohibition. But yes I agree.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@TheDarkKnight

I've noticed more and more shows and movies now include a warning for "smoking".

I believe that's now a government mandate.

Replies: ystokes

ystokes 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The one good thing when they banned smoking in the workplace was we could take 10 minute smoke breaks.

Remember when people could smoke on an airplane, newscasters smoked on screen. Even Fred Flintstone had an ad for cigarettes on Saturday mornings.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@ystokes

The one good thing when they banned smoking in the workplace was we could take 10 minute smoke breaks.

When I first started my career in the early 1970s, I had a coworker who smoked. He told me that he once quit, but when he went into the Navy there were times where they said, "Smoke them if you got them." But because of the danger of smoking in that part of the ship, they had to stop working and go someplace safe to smoke. He started smoking again simply to get breaks and never gave it up again.

Ah, smoking on an airplane. I had a coworker on the plane that was hit by lightning over Dallas and crashed (I was actually on the same plane the day before). As a smoker, he was sitting in the tail. The tail broke off just as a ball of flame was coming down the aisle heading his way. He was one of the few survivors.

I was on a plane in Brazil where the smoking section was on the left, not the rear. The entire plane was filled with smoke.

I'm a critic of smoking. My sister was a heavy smoker. She died of lung cancer.

Replies: AmigaClone TheDarkKnight

AmigaClone 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I'm a critic of smoking. My sister was a heavy smoker. She died of lung cancer.

My paternal grandfather who lived until he was nearly 90 had two younger brothers who died of lung cancer at the ages of 67 and 74. All three were heavy smokers at one time, but my grandfather stopped smoking decades before his brothers.

TheDarkKnight 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I had a coworker who smoked. He told me that he once quit, but when he went into the Navy there were times where they said, "Smoke them if you got them."

I had the same experience in basic training at beautiful Fort Jackson. S.C. The annoying part was that those of us who weren't smokers were often told to keep doing whatever it was we were doing. Annoying, but not enough to make me light up.

Most of the guys in basic at that time, early 1969, were headed for Nam, so perhaps the brass figured we didn't have a long life span to look forward to anyway, so "smoke 'em of you got 'em was the order of the day.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@TheDarkKnight

I had the same experience in basic training at beautiful Fort Jackson. S.C. The annoying part was that those of us who weren't smokers were often told to keep doing whatever it was we were doing. Annoying, but not enough to make me light up.

I did my basic in the other Carolina — Ft. Bragg. I had recently quit smoking, but since I was being told to pick up other people's butts I figured I might as well start smoking again. A carton of cigarettes costing $1.70 at the PX (17 cents a pack) didn't hurt either. But as soon as I got out of AIT, I quit again. This time for good.

Replies: Pixy I

Pixy I 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The UK was (might still be) different. Smoking breaks were allowed for all, ie when a smoking break was called, everyone had a break. The fastest/fittest soldiers tended to be smokers, and only smokers were required to pick up butts.

Replies: ystokes

ystokes 🚫

@Pixy I

Every person's body reacts differently. When someone tells me that smoking kills, I ask one simple question, please explain why Keith Richards is still alive in his late 80's? Considering how many things they "CLAIM" causes Cancer, how do they pinpoint one thing that causes it when a person has used so many things that can cause it? They even say drinking soda "May" cause Cancer.

Replies: palamedes LupusDei

palamedes 🚫

@ystokes

When someone tells me that smoking kills, I ask one simple question, please explain why Keith Richards is still alive in his late 80's?

He hasn't fallen asleep yet with a lite cigerette. Lost a friend that way when he was away for work and set the hotel on fire in 86.

LupusDei 🚫

@ystokes

how do they pinpoint...

...well, useless answer to a troll question, but...

"Cancer" isn't a single one thing, there's a very long list of different kinds of maladies with somewhat similar mechanics (own cels of the organism mutating and going rogue) that correlate with different irritants.

Such correlations can and are tested in model organisms (eg lab mice), and while the observed results are rarely if ever 100% sure, there's quite strong signal.

Sure, that "cancer" *is* a systemic failure, and the latest and most promising line of cure is therapeutic vaccines that teach your body to recognize and destroy those anomalies on your own, one targeted kind at a time. Unfortunately some cancers lack even clear genetic markers to target this way.

Replies: LupusDei

LupusDei 🚫

@LupusDei

Btw, the thing that causes cancer in smoking isn't nicotine itself, but burning products accompanied the practice. Why filtering is a thing, but of course isn't perfect (and doesn't protect bystanders anyway).

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Rodeodoc

My solution for this, because it's isolated, is to place the following at the start of the chapter:

WARNING — This chapter contains potentially upsetting material. I will mark the section so you may skip it, if you wish.

WARNING — This chapter contains descriptions of torture. I will mark the section so you may skip it, if you wish.

Then mark the section:

===== Caution =====
===== End Caution =====

So far, I haven't had anyone who has purchased the book on ZBookstore react negatively (either to the warnings or the inclusion of the material). We'll see what happens when it's posted to SOL and StoryRoom in two weeks.

Pixy I 🚫

@Rodeodoc

Should such an event be prefaced by a warning?

When I wrote 'The Anya' and posted it, I did so without any overt warnings other than a semi-vague synopsis.

General consensus via PM at the time was basically,"Fuck, that was brutal". With many professing to finding it a struggle to initially read, though some said that it actually made the character and her actions easier to understand.

I did tone it down after that, and the scores of the second chapter I would say reflect that.

I think if you make objectionable content fit into the overriding story rather than for simple shock value, readers don't necessarily have an issue. If it's something they really squick about, (And who knows what a reader will find squicky), they have the option to simply skip the offending chapter(s).

No one is forcing anyone to actually read every line and paragraph. If I read something written by an American, that descends into gun porn where they detail in minute detail, every groove in the handgrip of the Mark Five testicle tickler for twelve pages, I just skip that till plot continues normal jogging.

Replies: julka

julka 🚫

@Pixy I

No one is forcing anyone to actually read every line and paragraph. If I read something written by an American, that descends into gun porn where they detail in minute detail, every groove in the handgrip of the Mark Five testicle tickler for twelve pages, I just skip that till plot continues normal jogging.

I didn't expect you to take this position, I'll be honest, but you've put forth an extremely convincing argument for the inclusion of trigger warnings! There's no harm in including them, because the people who want them can read them and make an informed decision about whether to continue with the work, while the people who don't like trigger warnings aren't forced to read them and can simply skip past the content they don't like. I agree with you wholeheartedly!

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Rodeodoc

(Spoiler alert if you haven't read Variation on a Theme)

I had the same situation early on, with a situation that might hit multiple triggers, none of which are covered by a tag.

My solution was to tag the book 'caution' and warn people 'sensitive material inside; send your trigger list to me and I'll tell you if I hit them'. I got a couple of requests.

That seemed to work. No complaints, anyway.

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