Forum: Story Recommendations

Thanks a lot!!

If you want to go with dead tree, wouldn't Canticle for Liebowitz be even more appropriate?

Thanks, could you please post the link?

Canticle for Liebowitz

Sorry found it on the net, didn't know it was a book.

Sorry found it on the net, didn't know it was a book.

Dead tree = paper, ie: book

Fuel does go bad, but there are simple readily available preservatives to prevent that

Readily available in an active industrial society. That doesn't mean they will be readily available to survivors in a post apocalyptic world.

Readily available in an active industrial society. That doesn't mean they will be readily available to survivors in a post apocalyptic world.

But still on the shelf to be used on the still in the tank fuel, and not likely to be grabbed by the unknowing.

and not likely to be grabbed by the unknowing.

Which is likely to be most of the survivors.

and in any case, small quantities to preserve a few gas tanks worth of gas aren't going to be worth much.

To even have to worry about gas lasting years you need control of a gas station with storage tank capacity in the tens of thousands of gallons, or better yet, control of a fuel terminal with hundreds of thousands or millions of barrels capacity.

You'd need that preservative in industrial quantities, getting it from raiding an auto parts store won't cut it.

You'd need that preservative in industrial quantities, getting it from raiding an auto parts store won't cut it.

BHT is the preservative which can be found in many industrial bakeries.

BHT is the preservative which can be found in many industrial bakeries.

From what I can find on line, given the limits of how much can be used in food set by the FDA, I am skeptical that even an industrial bakery would have stocks of BHT sufficient for a large fuel terminal storage facility.

Research wood gas engines. Internal combustion engines can burn the hot gasses emitted from an oxygen starved burning wood source. All you need is a metal can to hold the wood an a fire to heat it.

Readily available in an active industrial society. That doesn't mean they will be readily available to survivors in a post apocalyptic world.

This information is easy to find and means

Easy to find today on the internet does not mean it would be easy to find in a post apocalyptic world with no internet.

Easy to find today on the internet does not mean it would be easy to find in a post apocalyptic world with no internet.

No, but easy to find in a library in dead tree format does.

No, it doesn't. Libraries could be destroyed in the apocalyptic event. And after, well, paper books are delicate things. With no one maintaining the library buildings or the books themselves, they can be damaged and/or destroyed in hundreds of ways.

Even if a library building and the books are intact, it could be exceedingly dangerous to reach for a number of reasons.

Be aware that many libraries are now shifting or have shifted to film and electronics for storage. Dead trees are large items to store and space for growing collections is expensive. Ask your library board how they spend their money.

Dead tree items are also easily misfiled - accidentally or deliberately - or permanently borrowed. Talk to your librarians, particularly in college libraries.

Where is that cloud to be found after the apocalypse?

aware that many libraries are now shifting or have shifted to film and electronics for storage.

Sure, and if you want the apocalypse to happen in some future 20+ years down the road where there are far fewer dead tree books then you might be able to set up a believable scenario for all the books to be gone, but that falls under the incredibly contrived setup I mentioned before.

The point isn't that all libraries will survive, it's that if you are talking about information that is found in millions of copies, the chance of all those copies getting destroyed is essentially nill.

weapons that are 150 years old do work questionably today because they are simpler than modern arms. If you have read the whole passage you could see that I am not restricting weapons use only late medieval ages, but include gunpowder use either in the earliest forms as artillery in cannons or even as muskets or early cartridge rifles. Meaning that older weapons tend to last more, now how accurate and effective they are after so long time with no use is doubtful.

Secondly, food will spoil eventually, one thing is that you don't have the population to eat it all. Another thing is that canned food no matter how long it can last it will expire before 5 years pass especially with no means to refrigerate or store it. Thirdly, modern ammunition does expire. Lastly, medicine has expiration dates (most medicine last for 1-2 years at most, and antibiotics need special equipment, such as coolers and refrigerators).

Fuels do go bad fast, kerosine and fuels for planes, ships not only does it not last, but old fuel is more dangerous than no fuel.

I don't say that I am an engineer or sth like that, but through different sources on the net and other author fics that's the general conclusion. Last but not least, a story that has different groups with too far levels of technology is not intresting. I just don't find it interesting reading about a guy that has full modern technology fighting cavemen. I believe that it would be interesting to watch different or more innovative if you want weapons of the same era and better tactics.

Another thing is that canned food no matter how long it can last it will expire before 5 years pass especially with no means to refrigerate or store it.

Not true

Apart from the fact that unopened canned food does not require refrigeration..!!

Link

Link

I know some of them that need special conditions, like a set temperature or no exposure to higher temperature or sunlight, other need cooled temperatures, others may need freezers, and then are some medicines that are not available for sale. Like injections that only trained personnel can do or safely handle, like nurses and pharmacists most commonly or doctors.
There are drugs, that cant be prescribed and you can only get them by a doctor in a hospital. Other than that most common drugs and medicine for common problems like a headache or a cold or a fever expire at best in 2 years, at least the ones I have at home. Also, any equipment like medic boxes that I have at the car, has an expiration date and I have to renew it every year, even if it's in good condition or I haven't even opened it. It's possible that in the survivor's population there will be some medically trained people like doctors and nurses that will know what to do. All I am saying is that they can not depend on these goods for the next decades, they should try and come up with substitutes that are easily made and available to them If down the line they can restore and renew the production of modern medicine all is good, but it will be difficult, next to impossible as except form the facilities that could be appropriated and restored, the supply chains for the material are still lost. I am sure that there are medicines that have base material from all over the country or even the world.

Not true

Apart from the fact that unopened canned food does not require refrigeration..!!

Sometimes canned goods can last a long time, sometimes they don't.

I've had old canned goods less than 5 years old go bad: the ends of the can swelled out and the can leaked black ooze.

What about the foods in your pantry? Most shelf-stable foods are safe indefinitely. In fact, canned goods will last for years, as long as the can itself is in good condition (no rust, dents, or swelling).

From Link 1, you cant know after whatever event you choose for the apocalypse how the climate will change, even if it's not a climate change event. Less population implies fewer emissions so changes in the temperature. High temperatures, if food is stored in the pantry or other storage facilities (that you remember the survivors may not know about or have keys or codes to open) could lead to overheating of metal and causing problems. Whatever the reason is mont trying to argue just for the sake of the argument it's just that in my mind it would be safer for any survivors to collect firstly equipment, tools, some food, and seeds, find people with skills and find a place which is geographically well protected and has the natural resource for rebuilding ( such as timber, mine deposits, like iron, coal, etc.). In my mind I don't think it is safe to live in an urban area, it could be difficult for food production, as even if the canned food does last for decades although, with less flavor, people can't live on such a diet without fresh produce. Moreover, without modern medicine available to such a degree down the line I don't know if they should take the chance.

In addition, urban areas could lead to diseases with the many bodies of the dead decomposing, while a place in the mountains with pastures for farm animals, farmland may be a river (could use it for some semblance of electricity like hydropower dam) for freshwater or a lake for fishing, sth like a valley, would be an idyllic starting point for the new community.

Then when they are safe, have food, and probably start reproducing some kind o medicine, either they trade with other groups or expand rescue more people, and consolidate their power. Those are ideas for authors better than me...

Just this week I cleaned up a can of crushed pineapple that exploded and leaked in my pantry. It was not dented and I bought it only about a year ago.

After the fact I learned that pull-top cans do not store well for the long term and are more prone to leak with the slightest dent. It was a messy ugly lesson to learn.

You had better plan to have a supply of manual can openers and both hands after your apocalypse and forget pull-top cans. Today's convenience does not bode well for longevity.

As a food manufacturing engineer, most canned items have a rated life of about 3 years. Not that the food will not last longer but the container life will only last about that long. Some will last longer but, some high acid foods such as tomatos, pasta sauce, any meat items, green beans, WILL become dangerous because of toxins if the can is breached. Item canned in glass are going to be better bot the lids are still a source of spoilage.
Bottom line is unless there is a special effort at preservation think MRE type military rations, I would think 10 years is the limit for finding preserved foods.
Sorry to be a debbie downer but, there is no point in preserving food longer. It costs too much.

if the can is breached

I would think 10 years is the limit for finding preserved foods.

You would be thinking wrong if that's the case. The primary key is in your first statement. If the can is not breached, it can go much longer than ten years for most everything assuming a controlled storage environment. Sometimes not even that is an issue.

Signs of what not to eat from long term storage cans.

1. Dented cans, in particular around sealing surfaces.

2. Expanded/ballooned cans. A negative biologic and or chemical reaction has taken place inside the can.

3. Any sign of corrosion on the inside surface of the can once it's opened.

4. Smells. Rancid and or acrid smells.

If none of those conditions exist, it's probably still edible.

The problem with military rations are in storage conditions. Significant time stored above 25.5° C, and at or below O° C, will degrade it. The higher or lower it is, the faster it degrades.

Then there are the more recent developments such as pull top lids. Containment integrity for those is around three years max regardless of storage conditions.

Steve1989MREInfo on Youtube does taste tests on MREs and ration packs from multiple countries going back to the Boer War. Some have survived remarkable well. Others not so much.
The channel may be interesting for authors writing historical military fiction for a live take on the food of the era.

I believe I saw someone eat hardtack from the War of Northern Aggression... Food that has next to no water content and is kept dry will last a long time.

Food that has next to no water content and is kept dry will last a long time.

Well, such dry goods will last very nearly indefinitely unless insects or other vermin get to them.

Archeologists have found edible wheat in Egyptian pyramids placed during the burial.

#2 and #4 don't always apply... there's a disgusting (probably Swedish) fish product that isn't shipped until the cans expand, and the smell once opened (preferably outdoors, given the propensity for a high-pressure discharge) is vile. And they eat it.

I remember seeing the process... I remember that encouraging decomposition was part of it, so the lye would make sense. (Note that hominy grits also involves the use of lye. But grits don't rot in the process.)

Speaking of rotten foods that some consider a delicacy, how about thousand year old eggs from China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_egg

Century eggs are more like sauerkraut, really. (Both take something that's barely edible, preserve it through a salting process, and make something nothing like the original product. Kraut's good, tho...)

If we are going to have a booger eating contest, Hákarl: fermented shark, an Icelandic traditional food and proof that if you are hungry enough you'll eat anything.
First catch and clean your shark. Then bury it for six weeks. Most people will stop at that point.

First catch and clean your shark. Then bury it for six weeks. Most people will stop at that point.

I'd stop after step 2, to throw it on the grill instead. Shark steak is good.

#2 and #4 don't always apply

Agreed. However if you're someplace without ready access to a hospital or other medical facility/personnel, it isn't a wise risk.

Also, I would say if you have tastebuds and/or a sense of smell, you really shouldn't ignore them either.

Also, I would say if you have tastebuds and/or a sense of smell, you really shouldn't ignore them either.

If you go back, you'll see I did specifically mention smell (#4).
Taste isn't something you should even consider until the first four rules have been evaluated. If you've tasted it, then you've already got some of it in you.

Those rules I developed for myself after some time spent in third world settings. Most of those places have never heard of FDA, or any other governing body set up to protect food supplies.

I'll add that in those settings, people should avoid fish, or any meat product that is not fresh. By settings, I mean anything outside the normal tourist lanes. Tourist lanes usually get more attention from the government in question. Tourist keeling over dead is bad for business.

A specific example would be Aruba in the 90's. The vast majority of people who visit have no idea there is a refinery on the southwest tip of the island. That so happens to be where the majority of the native Aruban population lives. The natives who worked and lived the tourist area had it much better off than those in that area. Food for them was a perennial problem. During peak tourist season, food was plentiful. Off season was leftovers effectively. Adding insult you injury, to make up the difference in quantity, cast aside foods from Venezuela were shipped in.

The refinery, and support for the same, crews were not held in very hi regards. XPats could travel north (and most did) to escape that problem. The locals were shit out of luck as they couldn't afford to do that even if they had the transport to do so. Piling more insult on, there was the multiple decades of ground water contamination from Lagos/Valero.

The dichotomy between the tourist side and the worker side of the island was severe. I don't know the current state of matters there now, but at the time, if you lived among the natives, you only had yourself to depend on. Many times during the off season, it was better to go hungry than eat the food sold.

@awnlee jawking

Put the dodgy item on the floor and call in your labrador. If he/she wolfs it down, it would probably have been safe for you to eat

I've had dogs stick their heads into the catbox and eat cat shit, so I'll go with no on this one.

Well, if your lab will eat cat shit but turns his nose up at whatever you are trying to run a lab test on, you definitely don't want to eat it.

I've had dogs stick their heads into the catbox and eat cat shit, so I'll go with no on this one.

Best to have your lab taste it and your cat watch. That way you'll have a CAT scan and a Lab report.

I would think 10 years is the limit for finding preserved foods.

We have historical evidence, and links posted above showing you're wrong.
What I suspect is true, is that
1) after a few years the chance of any given can spoiling starts going up.
2)depending on storage conditions that could retard or accelerate the process. Cans stored in a dry basement will probably last a lot longer than those exposed to sunlight and temperature variations involved.

After 50 years I'd expect nearly all canned goods would have spoiled, but we know some will still be good.

weapons that are 150 years old do work questionably today because they are simpler than modern arms.

it will expire before 5 years pass

Thirdly, modern ammunition does expire.

other author fics that's the general conclusion.

I just don't find it interesting reading about a guy that has full modern technology fighting cavemen.

So you want realistic unrealistic stories?

Canned food lasts about 5 years, canned meat up to 40 years

If it's stored properly and the cans are undamaged.

If the cans are damaged, either by physical force (dented) or corrosion, all bets are off.

Guns last hundreds of years with a modest amount of care. So you have to "magic" those away.

Well, I moved from California in 1972, and managed to forget a pistol that was stored in a damp basement for 30 years. After oiling, it was still completely usable, but not so pretty. I later paid to have it polished and re-blued, so it looks and works just like new.

Unless the guns are magically "disappeared", there are going to be around 1 billion guns sitting around, some in military armories where they are well maintained and already prepped for long-term storage, and some in civilian safes, where they are usually in pampered, well-oiled condition. My guess would be at least 200 years.

As for zero care in less than ideal conditions, I imagine there are a lot of veterans from various wars who could tell you the answer to that.

Well,when the apocalypse comes, try not to dent any cans. Thank you.

When the apocalypse comes, try to make it to a army base with plenty of rations, ammunition, and 'surplus' weapons. A lot will be stored covered in grease... (except maybe the rations.)
note: you'll likely need to find a reliable source of Tobasco elsewhere, though.

A lot will be stored covered in grease... (except maybe the rations.)

Removing the grease from the weapons and adding it to the rations greatly improves the flavour.

:)

But we are talking about a post apocalyptic scenario with most of the human population wiped out.

How many guns will both be getting that modest amount of care and be available for survivors to scavenge?

How long will they remain safely usable with zero care and less than ideal storage conditions?

So you are now in a time when there are more guns than living humans. The odds are favorable.

How long do those guns need to sit without care before one of those surviving humans decide it would be a good idea to have one or more? It is not as if no one will think of it for years.

Without a gun you are prey, with a gun you can resist or be a predator and it is your choice.

So you are now in a time when there are more guns than living humans. The odds are favorable.

Depends on the apocalypse.

Pandemic, sure.
Alien death rays, sure.
Solar flares? Ok.

Nuclear terrorists? Well, unless you can find army bases with armories that weren't impacted.

Near-ELI asteroid strike? Hard to say what areas will be ok.

Zombie apocalypse? Fine.

So you are now in a time when there are more guns than living humans. The odds are favorable.

Depends on how many humans are left.

Sure, the odds are favorable that any random survivor will be able to find a gun or three.

But turn that around. For any random gun, what are the odds that there will be a human available to salvage it?

How many years? How many generations before even half the pre-apocalypse stockpile of guns has been salvaged and put in to use?

So the question remains relevant, given zero maintenance and non-ideal storage conditions how long do guns remain serviceable without major repairs.

You're in New York? God help you on finding one.

You don't need any help from god, go to any police station, or even most squad cars and you'll be able to get a bunch of guns there, or at most gun ranges or shooting clubs.
For that matter, while NY has fewer registered private firearms than say Texas, there are still over 82,000 registered guns (as of 2017) and got only knows how many unregistered ones.

That's just the number of registered guns, no one is even trying to guess the total number of guns.

If you're in NY... Police evidence lockers in NYC will likely be as useful as National Guard armories. And if you know the local Hells Angels clubhouse, that's probably worthwile to check out too.

If you're in NY... Police evidence lockers in NYC will likely be as useful as Matiomal Guard armories.

... and even less well guarded.
Back in the 1980s I remember National Guardsmen on guard at armories in eastern states being mugged for their M16s, which was easy at the time due to the politics of the region the guards were not allowed ammo.

For a small group of survivors, the police evidence lockers will be as useful as National Guard armories.

For a larger band, the ability to find large numbers of identical weapons taking common ammo would likely make police and military armories more attractive than police evidence lockers.

Just about anything else modern? Same scenario, realistically. I've got a .22 squirrel gun that's forty years old. I run some patches down the barrel when I use it Still accurate, with nickel size groups at 25 yards. Never taken it apart to clean anything else inside.

That's still getting some care and close to ideal storage conditions.

If the storage area gets damp how long until the barrels corrode beyond the point of being safe to fire?

Fuel would go bad in a year or so, but it isn't all that hard to make vehicles run on wood gas (Germany made half a million of them during WWII, for example)

1. Will that work with a modern fuel injected vehicle, or will you need an older vehicle to convert?
2. With no internet, no electricity and minimal transportation, how easy will it be for survivors in a post-apocalyptic world to find instructions on how to do it?

Both good questions:

1 Nothing with a computer or fuel injection is going to work without extreme modifications, so old cars, trucks, and tractors would be the things to look for. I'm not sure a wood-burning motorcycle is a real good idea, however.

2 Guess it's too late for that. But true survivalists will already have stored that info in dead-tree form.

But true survivalists will already have stored that info in dead-tree form.

You mean preppers. But the preppers won't necessarily be the ones to survive, and their stashes won't necessarily be available to the survivors.

I guess that's their bad luck then. We have a different definition of survivalist. It doesn't mean someone who just happens to survive. It means someone who actively prepares to survive. Hence prepper.

You mean preppers. But the preppers won't necessarily be the ones to survive, and their stashes won't necessarily be available to the survivors.

A good portion of those people will likely be the first to die if it ever happened. Especially the weekend warlord mentality that thinks they are going to invade Walmart when it hits the fan.
The mentality most likely to survive are the ones who are not necessarily prepping, but striving for self efficiency instead.

Then again it is likely that those practising self-sufficiency will be found by the weekend warlord type. Result. Warlord kills those who know how to survive and later dies due to lack of knowledge.

Then again it is likely that those practising self-sufficiency will be found by the weekend warlord type. Result. Warlord kills those who know how to survive and later dies due to lack of knowledge.

You mean preppers. But the preppers won't necessarily be the ones to survive, and their stashes won't necessarily be available to the survivors.

Libraries do exist, and have all this information there in dead tree format even if it's not quite as easy to find as asking google what you want.

Dead tree books are delicate things.

And in a post apocalyptic world there isn't necessarily anyone caring for or protecting a library or it's contents.

Depending on the nature of the apocalyptic event, a library could have been destroyed.

Books can be damaged beyond use by vermin (insect or rodent, birds).

If a library building is damaged, the books could be destroyed by water damage from the weather or broken plumbing.

Lighting could lead to a fire which would destroy the books.

Again depending on the nature of the apocalypse, the area around the library could be very hazardous, making it difficult or impossible to access the library.

My point isn't that the information isn't out there, it's that you can't count on it being accessible in a post apocalyptic environment.

My point isn't that the information isn't out there, it's that you can't count on it being accessible in a post apocalyptic environment.

However, you can't count on it being gone in a post apocalyptic environment.

My point isn't that the information isn't out there, it's that you can't count on it being accessible in a post apocalyptic environment.

True survivalists have a biodiesel and wood gas set up in their bunker already.
Dilettante survivalists bought one years ago and allowed it to rust away sitting under their house.
I knew a hobby survivalist group that passed one around like a a Hobbit's Malthom. Whenever one moved house or the wife wanted space cleared, it would get passed to another, becoming more battered and rusty with each move.

1. Will that work with a modern fuel injected vehicle, or will you need an older vehicle to convert?

2. With no internet, no electricity and minimal transportation, how easy will it be for survivors in a post-apocalyptic world to find instructions on how to do it?

1. It can be made to work as long as it's not an interference engine. Modern engines, particularly interference engines, utilize electronics to keep the timing. Therein is where you'll find many problems. Next to that are the engines that won't run if all sensors are not working. The O2 sensor in particular is going to go batshit crazy the first time to fire it up.

Still it can be done, but ideally you want a points type ignition and older car.

2. Information and tools are going to be a problem. If you don't already have them, you're likely shit out of luck. The information is currently readily available.

Example:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a208249.pdf

I have a 1935 Case tractor rigged for it along with a 47 Lincoln SA-200 welder also set for it. Both of which were inherited from my Grandfather. I've since rebuilt them. Both can be utilized as gensets if needed. The one off of the shorthood can be put onto a vehicle if needed as well.

The engines are no where near as efficient, but they do work.

Fuel would go bad in a year or so,

However, redistilling it should work...

Yep. Dies The Fire has the reversion to medieval bit done well, but it relied on Alien Space Bats to set the scene. Electricity, gun powder, nuclear power, compressed steam and internal combustion all stop working world wide in an instant. Planes fall from the sky, ships are adrift, cars and trucks crash with no power steering, engine, lights or brakes. When the going gets weird the weird get going and Wiccans, hippies, Amish, and SCA/HEMA types are the new ruling class.

I've read the first three books multiple times. By book six or so the fan fiction was better than Stirlings own works. JMHO. YMMV.

I will check it out, thanks. When I made the post, I really didn't think the subject would be so controversial. I mean I get it that most stories retain the modern weapons and tech up to a level. However, I thought that even in the 17th to 19th-century society and tech level with aspects of the middle ages or the discovery era would be interesting. I don't say to not have electricity or some kind of fuel (steam power or else) but in a limited way sustaining fewer people in the thousands or hundreds and not millions.
That could change over time as people start repopulating the land and expand. But remember even if we follow a conclusion of all the above comments and the survivors do have modern weapons to depend on for the next 200 years along with supplies like ammunitions etc, a possible war between groups like gangs fighting each other or newly established communities fighting for better arable land or greed would it be better to have that kind of weaponry?

But remember even if we follow a conclusion of all the above comments and the survivors do have modern weapons to depend on for the next 200 years along with supplies like ammunitions etc, a possible war between groups like gangs fighting each other or newly established communities fighting for better arable land or greed would it be better to have that kind of weaponry?

Outright war between gangs/tribes of survivors could deplete the salvageable supplies of modern ammunition available in a given area fairly quickly.

Along with the lives of an already depleted population. It's pretty simple even if we put doctors in every group of survivors, which is not impossible but no probable either, that doesn't guarantee that a gunshot wound could be treated without functioning hospitals, equipment, sterilized tools, and surgical bays ( especially if you don't have the right kind of doc. what can a psychologist or neurologist do with a field wound needing surgery?). After that physical therapy maybe needed too. Not possible. Not saying that older weapons would be better, however, the treatment method could be simpler for the capabilities of the rest of the group, even if they are unskilled in this field.

It's a mistake to focus on just Doctors. There are a lot of people out there who can and have treated gunshot wounds without being a doctor. Specfor medics, village healers (think central and south America), not your mention nurses and EMT's.

Where only a legality stands in the way of life, the legality almost always loses.

Specfor

Specialist 4th class, an enlisted man in the US Army

"What is an SP4 in the US Army?
SP5 and SP6 were discontinued in 1985, and SP7 in 1978.
...
CURRENT CHART OF U.S. ARMY RANKS.
E1 PV1 / PVT Private or "Buck Private"
E4 CPL / SP4 Corporal / Specialist 4
E5 SGT / SP5 Sergeant or "Buck Sergeant" / Spec. 5"

As in special forces. Not specialist.

Yep. Dies The Fire has the reversion to medieval bit done well, but it relied on Alien Space Bats to set the scene.

read just today that one (just one) of the ammo manufacturers in the US produces 1.4 billion with a 'b' rounds per year for the military. Guessing that the total of all manufacturers would be 2 or 3 billion. Gonna take a while to use all that up.

I wouldn't think that that's all just going into stockpiles.

The military is probably actually using most of that every year.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/232330/us-military-force-numbers-by-service-branch-and-reserve-component/

The US Army has 479,785 active duty troops.
The USMC has 186,009 active duty troops.

If each of those goes through an average of 100* rounds / month in training, then they are burning 798,952,800 rounds per year.

And that's just training for the active duty troops, that's not counting the national guard and reserve forces training or ammunition spent in active conflicts.

Again, while the US military may have large stockpile of ammunition, they aren't just dumping 3 billion new rounds per year into those stockpiles.

*Round number pulled from ass for back of envelope calculation.

Ever seen how many rounds a Navy Phalanx system can spit our, or those 30mm cannons they have for small craft protection?

I was deliberately trying to low ball it. I would be rather surprised if the actual small arms training ammo burn from Army/Marine Corps was as low as 100 rounds/soldier/month.

Is there anyone here with recent military experience who can give a more accurate ball park on training ammo burn rate?

You might just be thinking of M4's and M9's. Don't forget about the automatic weapons that can put out hundreds of rounds per minute. Also, please remember that we still have troops that are in combat areas that are NOT training, but are are using these rounds every day in realtime situations. They can EASILY exceed those 100 rounds per day training limitations in just a few moments in a life or death struggle. Thank You.

You might just be thinking of M4's and M9's.

Nope. Even with M16s, range training is rarely done in full auto.

Don't forget about the automatic weapons that can put out hundreds of rounds per minute. Also...

the military doesn't have a stockpile.

I suspect that the actual fact is more like... the military has a stockpile, but that stockpile's inventory turnover is fairly high. As in it's likely that the longer sustained activity occurs, the lower the amount stockpiled gets as the consumption is somewhat higher than the production dedicated to the military, at least when there's a fair bit of combat use.

It seems that people believe that these ammo stockpiles and weapons will be left out in the fields for people to take. It is much more probable that if these stockpiles are not already in secret locked up storage military facilities, in the event of the apocalyptic pandemic or sth else (whatever event you start with), these very same stockpiles will be moved to more secure places. Especially if the virus outbreak apocalyptic event is some kind of bioweapon attack or experiment gone wrong for every party involved. Even if there are military personnel with the survivor groups, it will be difficult to find the stockpiles except whatever is in the armory or on hand for active duty.

Every military in the world has serious defenses and secret locations for their weapons, labs, stockpile silos, etc. Even if the survivors find out of pure luck, how could they unlock them? Even if there are soldiers among them, it would need codes and keys from different high-ranking officers who may not survive, along with the possibility that the system would go on lockdown and need oher codes that even they don't have on hand.

Moreover keep in mind, that if it was a bioweapon attack the first casualties hit the hardest would be known military bases. Meaning that every soldier or military personnel in the survivors would be rare and invaluable for some of their skills, at least for the first decade till the new communities establish themselves and find a level of technology that kind depend on and sustain themselves.

That's exactly what I am implying...

It seems that people believe that these ammo stockpiles and weapons will be left out in the fields for people to take. It is much more probable that if these stockpiles are not already in secret locked up storage military facilities,

Military small arms (rifle/pistol) ammo is stored in armories. These armories are likely locked up and otherwise secured, but their locations are not secret, the major armory locations are well known.

Ammo for heavy weapons like missiles and artillery shells are likely stored much more securely than small arms ammo, but while less well known, are not secret.

Armory locations for nuclear weapons likely are secret.

Are known to military personnel, not civilians.

Are known to military personnel

Military small arms (rifle/pistol) ammo is stored in armories. These armories are likely locked up and otherwise secured, but their locations are not secret, the major armory locations are well known.

The physical security is largely armed guards and being located on active military bases, they are nowhere near up to bank vault standards.
So if the people on the base all die off anyone can break in, if not disturbed by others with the same idea.

It is much more probable that if these stockpiles are not already in secret locked up storage military facilities, in the event of the apocalyptic pandemic or sth else (whatever event you start with), these very same stockpiles will be moved to more secure places.

If the "secret locked up storage military facilities" are deemed unsafe in the event of an "apocalyptic pandemic", why are they there in the first place? Why is there somewhere even safer yet unused to which they can be moved? And of course, if as you say, they would be moved, "in the event", then they are most likely moving by road and could end up abandoned on the road or "left out in the fields".

Anything stored on a military base should be secure, many things should be very secure. However, that security is in part based on guards and any active base.

A secure store on an abandoned base, one where the personal succumb to the pandemic, isn't as secure. Anyone wanting what is inside has only to break in, no rush, no guards. Not easy, but by no means impossible.

IIRC some years ago Belgium had its share of NATO issue nuclear weapons pulled after they were left unattended in an open hanger on an open airbase when the staff went home for the weekend, leaving the gates open. An anti-war protestor walked and took photos. So its already happened.

IIRC some years ago Belgium had its share of NATO issue nuclear weapons pulled after they were left unattended in an open hanger on an open airbase when the staff went home for the weekend, leaving the gates open.

Thanks for the link to an in depth review of what happened. I was recalling a ten year old click bait article, which obviously didn't cover the story correctly.

Non shooters don't take into account civilian holdings. American citizens hold more firearms than the government. When I was a competitive shooter my yearly use stockpile ran well into five figures.
Just as kids & donuts are cheaper by the dozen, ammo is cheaper by the crate.
So after the great dying those scavenging for food are likely to find guns and ammo as well.
Explosives and giggle switch guns will be harder to find, but they are of limited value outside of trained squad tactics. Want a full auto M16, assuming you are one of the surviving few? Go to your local police department or nearest FBI office.
After a surfeit of death I doubt there'll be much interest in establishing local warlordery IRL. People tend to come together after a disaster.

After a surfeit of death I doubt there'll be much interest in establishing local warlordery IRL. People tend to come together after a disaster.

So a husband with a wife and two teenage daughters would be crazy to worry about anyone 'passing by' etc...?

So a husband with a wife and two teenage daughters would be crazy to worry about anyone 'passing by' etc...?

No, but he would be crazy (or stupid) to try and get automatic weapons to defend his family with.

Why?

Why specifically automatic weapons?

Would you be less dead if the bullet that killed you was fired from a bolt action rather than an automatic?

Personally I'd want a weapon I knew well, was effective at sufficient range to stop my target well away from me.

Surviving is not bringing bringing a knife to a gunfight. Wisdom is bringing a more accurate gun and knowing exactly when, where & how to use it. And just as importantly, when NOT to use it.

@Unicornzvi

No, but he would be crazy (or stupid) to try and get automatic weapons to defend his family with.

Why?

Why specifically automatic weapons?

Would you be less dead if the bullet that killed you was fired from a bolt action rather than an automatic?

I think you've misinterpreted.

Here: automatic=full auto=machine gun.

As I read his statement, Unicornzvi was recommending not using automatic weapons. I don't think this has anything to do with relative lethality on a per round basis.

In a post apocalyptic setting, it would probably be best to avoid automatic weapons because they burn through finite supplies of ammunition much more quickly.

Even if survivors have the tools and knowledge to hand load new/used casings, which will extend ammo supplies, on top of all the other basic survival activities that they can't ignore, they won't be able to produce enough new ammo to support the burn rate of automatic weapons.

In a post apocalyptic setting, it would probably be best to avoid automatic weapons because they burn through finite supplies of ammunition much more quickly.

Agreed.

Then again, anyone doing 'spray and pray' is an idiot anyway.

Then again, anyone doing 'spray and pray' is an idiot anyway.

That depends on conditions. In an outright war, army against army, it can make sense or such weapons wouldn't have been developed in the first place.

That depends on conditions. In an outright war, army against army, it can make sense or such weapons wouldn't have been developed in the first place.

1. A pandemic apocalypse scenario isn't "army against army".

2. An automatic or self loading rifle allows faster operation. Most users are actually trained to fire short, AIMED bursts rather than emptying the entire mag as fast as possible in the general direction of the target(s).

3. Maybe my viewpoint is different as my training was orientated towards accuracy and speed, not sending a lot of lead downrange and hoping...

4. Amongst the 'spray and pray' brigade are those who believe that the bullet goes faster the harder the trigger is pulled and that closing your eyes whilst firing prevents being blinded by muzzle flash...

I'll stick with my opinion, thank you.

Except for Jimmy whose weapon is disabled because he was ogling Belinda's naked body."

You forgot little Timmy, who 'shot' himself upon seeing the advancing zombies.

Slightly more on topic, at least Ringo's version had naked Zombies, not the 'Walking Dead' kind.

"Trixie" rules..!!

:)

And has two smelly, wet feet?

No idea of his 'pedicament'.

It might become one as survivors join together in bands and compete for resources,

Highly unlikely. If there are enough people and resources to make that a viable strategy, there are enough people and resources to prevent total collapse.

Highly unlikely. If there are enough people and resources to make that a viable strategy, there are enough people and resources to prevent total collapse.

Not really. There's no reason to believe that the remaining population would have the skills needed to keep society functioning, at least not in any particular area. Consider - yeah, you may have a cluster of tech individuals... they'd probably be able to scrounge enough food, but they won't likely be producing any, and they're likely to die off since there's no medical experts. Or maybe you have a bunch of convicts who escaped the local supermax, and whatever survivors that were left before the convicts showed up get reduced to the survivors of the convicts... Or a cluster of doctors, but they can't keep the power on or keep the equipment running or produce food. There's reason to predict that over the planet there'd be enough people to keep society running, but no reason to believe they'd be distributed correctly for that to happen.

(Also, I'm pretty sure if I ever wrote a post-apoc story, the survivors would come across a maximum security prison and find corpses in every cell, all with bullet holes in their heads. Sure as hell, some guard would be inclined to kill all the prisoners - maybe to 'put them out of their misery' or maybe to prevent them from escaping in the aftermath - rather than release them.)

Shooting them in their cells was an action taken in Niven & Pournelle's Lucifer's Hammer. Also killing hippy freaks trying to prevent evacuation from LA by chaining themselves across the freeway.
Niven & Pournelle liked killing off people in inventive ways. The reporter drowned in a toilet by a reformed environmentalist turned born again militarist in Footfall, the surfer dude who rides the Tsunami - right into the side of a skyscraper, steamed to death manning a 16 inch cannon on a rocket powered by chain firing atomic bombs, the Zulu recruited by our new Alien Overlords who promptly spears his commander, who happens to be a sapient minature elephant, etc.
IIRC one of the sub-themes of Lucifer's Hammer is the nerds at the nuclear powerplant doing whatever it took to prevent the lights going out on civilization. IRL without the massive infrastructure required to maintain and refuel the reactor it was doomed anyway. I doubt it would survive the tectonic reaction of a near planet killer comet strike anyway, but the nerd brigade wanted their happy ending with tech triumphing over all. So we bought the books and didn't look to closely at the flaws.

Thanks for jogging my fading memories. I was confusing The Foot with the Hammer. I'm less confident than you in the ability to keep going as parts and control systems age. The supply chain would no longer exist.

but the reactor would maybe run at a maximum of 5% of capacity, ever. That's a good forty plus years without ever needing anything other than spare parts that they could machine there.

Not how it works. It's an exponential decay, not a linear process. If we assume a set of fresh fuel rods can reach (in theory) 200% of a full load and it takes them 6 years to get to "can't reach 100% then in 24 years it would reach "can't reach 6.25%"

Still more than enough time to find some other solution and build the machines needed to build the machines needed to make the parts they can't make.

Shooting them in their cells was an action taken in Niven & Pournelle's Lucifer's Hammer

Don't think so, I'll maybe check and update this later. What I do remember is the whacko stalker who murdered his victim, maybe he was shot by the responding officers? I do remember a gang of released convicts who hooked up with another gang, and were rampaging round the countryside (with a cannibalistic initiation rite) - though this might be from Al Steiner's Aftermath, since they were quite similar in some ways and I tend to confuse them.

steamed to death manning a 16 inch cannon on a rocket powered by chain firing atomic bombs

Nah, Hairy Red was steamed to death repairing the steam-driven attitude control system on Archangel Michael (the 'Orion' style ship); he wasn't flying a 'stovepipe' - the minimal rocket wrapped round an ex-Naval gun.

one of the sub-themes of Lucifer's Hammer is the nerds at the nuclear powerplant doing whatever it took to prevent the lights going out on civilization.

No, the nerds at the plant needed help to survive, and the plant was their only bargaining chip. From the book:

"Sure we can huddle here in our valley," Delanty shouted. "We can stay here and be safe and our kids can grow up herding pigs and shoveling sewage. There's a lot here to be proud of, because it's so much more than what might have been-but is it enough? Is it enough for us to be safe when we leave everybody else out in the cold? You all say how sorry you are to have to turn people away. To have to send people Outside. Well, we've got the chance now. We can make all of Outside, the whole damn San Joaquin Valley, as safe as we are.
"Or there's another way. We can stay here, safe as-as ground squirrels. But if we take the easy way this time, we'll take it next time. And the next, and the next, and in fifty years your kids will hide under the bed when they hear the thunder! The way everybody used to hide from the great thunder gods. Peasants always believe in thunder gods.
"And the comet. We know what it was. In ten more years we'd have been able to push the damned thing out of our way! I've been in space. I won't go there again, but your children could! Hell yes! Give us that electric plant and twenty years and we'll be in space again. We know how, and all it takes is power, and that power's right out there, not fifty miles from here, if we've just got guts enough to save it. Think about it. Those are the choices. Go on and be good peasants, safe peasants, superstitious peasants-or have worlds to conquer again. To control the lightning again."

One of the scenes I remember (even 20+ years after reading it last) is one of the characters driving through a flooded landscape, on top of a railway embankment.

If you want inventive ways to kill people off, how about Niven's Death by Ecstasy

(Also, I'm pretty sure if I ever wrote a post-apoc story, the survivors would come across a maximum security prison and find corpses in every cell, all with bullet holes in their heads. Sure as hell, some guard would be inclined to kill all the prisoners - maybe to 'put them out of their misery' or maybe to prevent them from escaping in the aftermath - rather than release them.)

I have heard many years ago that that was the doctrine for that level of disaster. Do not know if true or still in place, but it might not have been made up by fiction writers.

Not really. There's no reason to believe that the remaining population would have the skills needed to keep society functioning

Keep a modern 21st century society running? You're right. Keep a society running, probably settling to mid/early 20th century as various resources and stocked matrial run out while the survivors are learning to become more self sufficient? That doesn't take people starting off with technical skills. it just takes there being enough random people and resources around that you can have a society which can afford to have people specialize and work at stuff other than gathering food.

they'd probably be able to scrounge enough food, but they won't likely be producing any, and they're likely to die off since there's no medical experts.

People aren't going to suyddenly die off due to lack of medical experts, Most of the improvment in life expectancy from the middle ages to today comes from improvement in heigene, and even ignoring that, people who lived past age 5 had a good chance of living to 60.

Or maybe you have a bunch of convicts who escaped the local supermax,

That requires thos convicts to actually work together, manage to gather the equipment they need and not decide they're better off killing each other, and yet still being anti-social and stupid enough to go around killing golden geese. That's ridiculous enough even before you start considering what sort of disaster let a group of convicts survive and killed the vast mjority of the law-abiding population.

1. I didn't say it was.

2. You will get 90% or more of that faster operation benefit from a semi-auto weapon without having to worry about the trigger discipline for controlled bursts, which takes a bit of skill and practice.

3. Sure, if you have the training for it. The average survivor in a PA scenario probably won't.

4. Morons will be morons.

morons

"Usage of Moron
The terms idiot, imbecile, moron, and their derivatives were formerly used as technical descriptors in medical, educational, and regulatory contexts. These uses were broadly rejected by the close of the 20th century and are now considered offensive."

Idiots were less functional than morons, and imbeciles were between idiots and morons. It was based on IQ scores, if I remember correctly.

Why specifically automatic weapons?

@joyR
Other way around. Automatic weapons require more maintenance, are harder to use effectively, are generally heavier, and as @Dominions Son notes, generally go through ammo incredibly fast.

If you need to hold of an army, automatic weapons make sense, for post-apocalypse self defense against two and four legged animals semi-auto, bolt action or shotguns would be more effective and easier to get your hands on.

After a surfeit of death I doubt there'll be much interest in establishing local warlordery IRL.

Many sociopaths are highly functioning members of society, who choose to obey laws (and to a lesser extent, norms) due to the down side of being caught. You believe all of them will die off in the first wave? Because without the constraints of society preventing them from acting however they want, they'll quickly seek to become warlords.

/me whistles innocently...
No reason.
;)

Because without the constraints of society preventing them from acting however they want, they'll quickly seek to become warlords.

Why would I want to become a warlord when I can promote some useful idiot to the roll of 'obvious target'?

Sooner or later someone would notice that you're the new Josef Stalin, after enough 'targets' die.

No man, no problem. I would be fine.

Not for long, now the 'disarm the people' lobby are in power.

Realistically, any real attempt at gun control will simply increase sales.

If a law was likely to allow firearms in the US to be confiscated the reports of stolen firearms would tie up the police for years.

There are simply too many firearms and too many who want to own guns for any real reduction to happen, without even considering the constitutional issues etc.

Even taxing sales to astronomic levels won't reduce the number of firearms currently owned by citizens. At say $10 a round it would slow ammunition sales down. Except it would make smuggling ammo more profitable than smuggling drugs. With far more demand...

Reloading equipment, powder, and molds would increase in price with everyone deciding to produce homemade ammo.

I believe you will find there are national shortages of all of the above ATM. Same happened when Obama was elected. Primers, powder, 9mm and 5.56mm were in short supply for years.
When Walmart was the only retail outlet with (limited) ammo coming in, which they rationed to two packets per purchaser, retirees would supplement their social security by lining up at Walmart in the morning, buying any ammo that came in, then walking down to the local gun store to resell it.

Except it would make smuggling ammo more profitable than smuggling drugs. With far more demand...

.. and the .gov does not have ammo sniffing dogs.

and the .gov does not have ammo sniffing dogs.

They have dogs for finding explosives and I suspect those same dogs will find ammo.

Propellant powder is not even close to the same chemical composition as common explosives so it would smell very different.

They have dogs for finding explosives and I suspect those same dogs will find ammo.

They'd need a different calibre of dog...

:)

Saltpetre was originally extracted from dungpits, so I'm sure dogs will be attracted to the scent of ammo.

Sure, if you're a civil war reenactor or cowboy shooting competitor still using black powder. Not since nitrocellulose was invented has propellant been black powder - and that's a couple generations of propellant ago.

hey have dogs for finding explosives and I suspect those same dogs will find ammo.

Given that most ammo is sealed in multiple water proof containers, I suspect they'd have a lot more difficulty spotting ammo then drugs. More importantly, many common cleaning chemicals will give a false positive for explosives.

Granted, they're going to be in concrete bunkers that it's going to take some fairly heavy equipment and time to break into, but that's exactly what's out there, right now.

Nice, I would try to find his works...

A virus kills off 99.99999999% of the human race.

The East German Judge gave you a score of 7.99999 in advanced pedantry. IIRC in the book there are about a dozen survivors in the USA. I await your updated math with interest.

I await your updated math with interest.

I will check it out. Do you have any recommendations about my first comment, on reincarnation or SI fics?
Thanks,
SP

My comment on the laundry files was meant for Madnige. The laundry files are John Le Carre crossed with technomancy, use of computers to create perfect spells and summon creatures from other dimensions. They are a fun read, but not what you are looking for.

I'm not sure what you mean by Uplift. In sci-fi that would be the David Brin Uplift novels or Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality of Man stories, genetic engineering of animals to make them into intelligent sentient beings.
If you mean fast forwarding the technical development of society, that is usually covered by time travel or crossing multiverse stories. H. Beam Piper started the idea of Cross Time, or alternate worlds in the multiverse with his Paratime & lord Kalvan of Otherwhen novels. Gina Marie Wylie has a long story based on Pipers universe, it has a very high score, I haven't read it so caveat emptor. https://storiesonline.net/s/50382/tangent

Gina Marie Wylie has a long story based on Pipers universe

It got her a publishing deal, then she had a feud with the established writer the publisher made 'responsible' for the Lord Kalvan universe and walked away.

she had a feud

She wasn't willing to continue to write in the Lord Kalvan universe when "the established writer" wrote a book that made Lord Kalvan unpleasant for her to write about. Just because a writer signs a contract doesn't make it necessary to write books you can't support writing.

Yea, I have read both FantasyLover's and Scotland-the-brave stories a long time ago. Actually, those stories were the ones that sent me looking for alternate history fics and the fanfics, on "A Song of Ice and Fire" or "Game of Thrones", where they are actually thousands. By uplift, I believe the term was used generally for stories where the MC was reincarnated or inserted into a fictional character (like an heir of a medieval family house or sth.) and he "uplifted" such an early medieval or late ancient society, through the agricultural and industrial revolution. Not as fast as the Scotland-the-brave where he gave to ancient normans steel-steamship later in the story. More like an agricultural revolution with better machines or techniques like 4-crop rotation if they don't already have it or finding better seeds and crops for their climate by importing them from somewhere far away, that the people there haven't thought it. Building glasshouses or salt pans, making better steel or glass or other lucrative commodities to trade with other nations, countries, kingdoms, or cities. Some discovery of new lands or wars would be nice. That kind of a story, where you examine the changes of society, by throwing a single rock in the lake.

Another 'uplifting' development I have seen, was introducing basic medicine and hygiene by making and selling soaps, or oils, etc. Or introducing educations for all, better knowledge on a range of things from mathematics to geography and topology to metallurgy. Changing the laws if the character can and the culture.

The idea of an ISOT as I have recently found is that instead of inserting a single person, you insert a group of people or even a settlement like a city. I have found a couple of stories like that on the net, but the storytelling was really bad, although the concept was really interesting (no character development). One of them was about a large medieval city under siege for some reason was either time dispaced, back a thousand years, or space displaced to another continent the same year. For example, a 15th or 16th-century large city being displaced back 1000 years or at the exact same year from Middle Ages Europe to East America, or what it would later be the American continent. It's a nice concept, but there aren't many stories out there are about it. Another was a group of people being inserted to a fiction world.

I forgot to mention there are several sequels and the best of the internet fan fiction was anthologized and published by Flint.

S.M. Stirling has a similar series with Island in the Sea of Time in which the island of Nantucket, complete with the Coastguard tall ship Eagle is time swapped for bronze age Nantucket. The residents sail to Europe and make contact with the various Mediterranean civilizations.

Island in the Sea of Time is the other piece to Dies the Fire. When the Alien Space Bats rewrote the laws of physics for the rest of the world they sent Nantucket to an alternate universe/timeline.

Yep, the difference is IITSOT doesn't fall down the magic and mysticism hole. Its technological uplift rather than magic regression to an agrarian feudal society. It does use some of the same tropes, with the super swordsdyke leader and the educated white male, secret sociopath Big Bad who is into torture and carving out an empire regardless of the body count.

Eric Flint's 1632 will be worth reading.

I heard about it many times here on the forum and downloaded the iso from Baen over a year ago. I finally got around to start reading it. I like it so far.
It has indeed many sequels and/or side stories. The Baen iso has 68 subdirectories for Eric Flint, including 1632.

Flint is a true believer communist and the series is wish fullfillment for him. If you take away the nice wrapping, Grantville is taken over by a Workers Committee, everything is nationalized and every one is conscripted. Forced to make deals with neighboring rulers, they establish the Comintern as a fifth column in those nations. In later books his blood lust comes out, with characters gloating over the murder of the children of aristocrats as it prevents future claims on seized property. Commissars order the murder of political opponents and minor criminals, etc. Even though I find the communist ideology abhorrent I've still been a good capitalist and purchased his books, because he passes the first test of an author: He writes interesting tales.

Flint is a true believer communist and the series is wish fullfillment for him. If you take away the nice wrapping, Grantville is taken over by a Workers Committee, everything is nationalized and every one is conscripted. Forced to make deals with neighboring rulers, they establish the Comintern as a fifth column in those nations. In later books his blood lust comes out, with characters gloating over the murder of the children of aristocrats as it prevents future claims on seized property. Commissars order the murder of political opponents and minor criminals, etc. Even though I find the communist ideology abhorrent I've still been a good capitalist and purchased his books, because he passes the first test of an author: He writes interesting tales.

I very quickly got that idea, but like you said, as much as I hate communism (capitalism isn't the holy grail either), the story is interesting so far. But as with most stories you have to sometimes realize that it's still fiction and you don't have to agree with everything written to enjoy a good story.

Grantville is taken over by a Workers Committee, everything is nationalized and every one is conscripted.

I have no idea what you read, but it wasn't anything by Eric Flint where there is no conscription, and while some of the characters do gloat over murders, those are the bad guys and generally come to a bad end.

After the Ring of Fire, Grantville is no longer in the jurisdiction of the state of West Virginia or the nation of the United States. So, it became a "city-state" in the classic Greek sense of the term. It organized its government to reflect that reality. I disagree that there was no conscription. Grantville did reinstitute a draft for young men. As for nationalization, some fuel stocks were taken over. Unfortunately. Baens Bar is offline so I can't look up the specifics. Yes, Eric Flint is a Marxist. However, he is a Trotskyist, not a Stalinist.
As for "Kristallnacht", it was aimed at witch hunters and Anti-Semites.

I disagree that there was no conscription. Grantville did reinstitute a draft for young men. As for nationalization, some fuel stocks were taken over.

This is the part I disagree with.There was no conscription in the books, all the soldiers were volenteers - in fact the only time the Draft is mentioned in the book is when Harry Lefferets tries to convince Mike Stearns that they can make Grantville (and the other states that joined them) safe. Mike chose instead to ally with Sweden so they wouldn't have to become a "Festung Amerika". Private fuel stocks or other critical materials were not siezed, they were baught for a fair price, of course most of the fuel in the RoF belonged to people who were outside the RoF and didn't have any heirs in it and that the government did take. But no nationalizing of private property, no draft and certainly no gloating over murders by the good guys.

As for "Kristallnacht", it was aimed at witch hunters and Anti-Semites.

A counter-attack isn't murder, the good guys in the story weren't gloating at the murders, they oscillated between being concerned over the murders(and upset they couldn't do anything to stop them) and happy at the successful counter attack.(and that the murderers were getting punished)

What should be of interest to writers here is the RoF is open to writers other than Eric Flint. Starting with short stories in the Grantville Gazette and on to full-length novels. It's almost like our Swaarm Universe. However, stories are bought at professional rates.

Thanks, I will check it out, it looks promising...

Eric Flint's 1632 will be worth reading. Published by Baen Books. 20th century town of Grantville, complete with powerplant, machine shops and libraries gets flipped for an equal amount of virgin forest in Germany in 1632.

Not virgin forest, there was no Virgin forest in 1632 Germany. They replaced an equal area of war-torn germany which had various tenants and owners, which is part of the plot.
Definitely agree it's a great series to read, only problem is there's so much of once you get past the first few books you'll get lost trying to decide which to read next.

As Big guy on a bike is being coy, here is his story, which is a good read:
https://storiesonline.net/s/60439/hard-winter

I know, those stories as I said before, send me searching the net. I have read almost all of FanatasyLover's stories. I don't quite remember spirit quest. For a moment I thought it was the old sequel "Quest for Knowledge", of "Sea King", a Colt45's story. Oh, now I remember, spirit quest was one of the later stories by FantasLover, where the MC comes prepared, back in time...

America's oldest documented fruitcake was baked in 1878 by Fidelia Bates,

According to Johnny Carson, there is only one fruitcake. It gets passed from one family to the next every Christmas. :)

Just make sure that the fruitcakes you stock up on are those baked in the oven and not those baked in the Congress.

I would've added "you want the ones soaked in booze" but then realized that wouldn't eliminate, for example, Teddy Kennedy.

Not really. Most MREs are more edible than fruitcake.

So.. fruitcake can last 12x as long as a MRE.

I've been stocking up on the wrong stuff.

The fruitcake may last longer, but the MREs are more nutritious and (heaven help us) palatable.

Nonsense. Fruitcake is delicious, low in sodium compared to MRE's, and you can eat it for a week without having to call RotoRooter.

Nonsense. Fruitcake is delicious

You're off your meds again, aren't you?

You're off your meds again, aren't you?

Obviously, many of you have never had real fruitcake.

Obviously, many of you have never had real fruitcake.

Of course not. Again, according to Johnny Carson, there has only ever been one fruitcake.

I have actually made real fruitcake and yes, it was delicious. How can it not be when the first step is to re-hydrate dried fruit with rum.

I dunno... Maybe idiots using something like Bacardi's White Cough Syrup...er... 'Rum'?

Maybe if I had dried cherries and cranberries and rehydrated them with some Spiced Rum (or Lamb's Navy Dark 151) prior to baking (and used the same to soak the cake in after) it wouldn't be bad.

I have actually made real fruitcake and yes, it was delicious. How can it not be when the first step is to re-hydrate dried fruit with rum.

To fair, if sufficient rum is added to MREs they too become delicious, or maybe the consumer becomes delirious... Either way the apparent taste improves.

:)

Actually, the preferred addition to MREs is Tobasco. Bourbon (taken separately) will make the result seem better.

Actually, the preferred addition to MREs is Tobasco. Bourbon (taken separately) will make the result seem better.

Possibly on your side of the pond.

The UK 24hr version, (which for years included Mars Bars with Arabic script, supposedly left over from the Suez fiasco) was known by some to be consumed by emptying the entire contents, save for the toilet paper and can opener, into one mess tin, stirred together well, then consumed, preferably in the dark. (Heating only if circumstances allowed).

They also introduced troops to tins marked "Mulligatawny" and "Mock turtle", tasty? No. But presumably chosen to increase vocabulary rather than for any calorific value. OXO cubes were a popular addition.

Note: Not described from personal experience but from one who was 'there'.

the first step is to re-hydrate dried fruit with rum.

Personally, I stick with my mother's choice, brandy. I even used a German cherry brandy once...it was good immediately, and after a 6 month aging freakin' awesome.

I'll have to try the cherry brandy now.

Maybe try with Zolakowa Gorzka too.

Cherry brandy appeals to me, vodka not so much.

Just came across a recipe that soaks the fruit in a combination of brandy and orange liqueur.

I will have to try that myself. I have always liked a good cherry brandy. Heck even cheap old white castle cherry brandy went down good when added to a pitcher of mojo.

Depends on the recipe. My grandmother's fruitcake had two tablespoons of brandy in it. My tee-total family love it so I make it each year, but it don't touch it.

Her christmas pudding recipe I modified to 'soak fruit in two bottles of brandy in a crock pot for two week until the raisins look like grapes again'. Very popular with my friends.

Properly made, the cake is soaked in booze after cooking. It's one reason they last almost as long as a cockroach or a Twinkie.

It's one reason they last almost as long as a cockroach or a Twinkie.

One morning on the way into the office, I noticed that someone had dropped a Twinkie. That evening, I passed it on the way out, and noticed a parade of ants on the sidewalk. They were detouring around the Twinkie, staying about 8" away, like it was a mini Chernobyl. Perhaps they know something we don't.

One morning on the way into the office, I noticed that someone had dropped a Twinkie. That evening, I passed it on the way out, and noticed a parade of ants on the sidewalk. They were detouring around the Twinkie, staying about 8" away, like it was a mini Chernobyl. Perhaps they know something we don't.

Yes, they do. People think cockroaches will survive a nuclear war. They are wrong. Oh, the cockroaches will survive the immediate aftermath, but they they will get eaten by the Twinkies. :)

the cockroaches will survive the immediate aftermath, but they they will get eaten by the Twinkies. :)

The Twinkies will then be finished off by beetles. (There's just too many of them to believe they wouldn't be the last remaining life form.)

Then, of course, they'd die from anaphylactic shock caused by eating the Twinkies.

The Twinkies will then be finished off by beetles.

No, don't be fooled by their seeming passiveness, Twinkies are an apex predator.

Reese Peanut Butter Cups are a true apex predator. They kill humans, which kill other apex predators. (And, in the case of sharks, eat said apex predators. 'Cuz they're tasty.)

I can completely imagine that too: in the warped violent impression that I get of America though news and pundits and popular stereotypes, that's just how America pretty much behaves already!

And there have been reports of mass knife attacks/stabbings from the UK and several other European Countries.

The UK has already moved to institute knife control.

If you think such violence is strictly a US problem, that borders on being delusional.

I live in a very rural area of the US. I guess an area where we masturbate our guns. People take care of each other here. I'd be fearful of the outflow of the desperate from the urban areas. Hopefully we will be able to stop masturbating our guns long enough to use the to defend food production and stop the unruly mobs.