(I'd like to say Merry Christmas, but that might not be politically correct.) Live Long and Prosper! Next year our vision will be better, we will all be seeing 2020.
(I'd like to say Merry Christmas, but that might not be politically correct.) Live Long and Prosper! Next year our vision will be better, we will all be seeing 2020.
Live Long and Prosper!
Merry Christmas!
Feliz Navidad!
(I don't particularly care about being politically correct.)
That should be Chrismahanukwanzakah
C'mon. You left our far Eastern members out. What about the Buddhists, Shintoists(?), etc... :)
For the politically incorrect: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
For the politically correct: I like richard's Live Long and Prosper.
You left our far Eastern members out. What about the Buddhists, Shintoists(?)
1. I didn't invent Chrismahanukwanzaka.
2. Do the Buddhists and Shintoists even have a December holiday?
For the politically correct: I like richard's Live Long and Prosper.
Doesn't that leave out the poor and the terminally ill?
Doesn't that leave out the poor and the terminally ill?
When you get right down to it, we're all terminally ill since we all end up belly up eventually.....
And being poor is a self correcting condition. So I think the original sentiment still covers all the bases. :>)
For the politically correct: I like richard's Live Long and Prosper.
You insulted the Klingons
You insulted the Klingons
That's why toilet paper was invented, to deal with Klingons.
Or - you use a bidet to wash away those stubborn Klingons.
SFC
Happy Christian miscalculation of the Winter Solstice Day.
It isn't necessarily a miscalculation.
I heard/watched a special on History that looked at the dating of Christmas in both the Orthodox and the Catholic church. Don't know if I can find a link to it on-line and I'm feeling lazy ATM.
1. Start with the Magi. They weren't generic wise men or wizards. In that day and age, the term would have specifically been a reference to Zoroastrian priests from Persia. Added Trivia, the bible identifies 3 gifts, but never says how many Magi made the trip.
2. The Zoroastrians were astrologers. In Zoroastrian astrology the star that predicts the birth of kings is/was the planet Venus. To predict a king born to the Hebrews, it would have to appear in a specific constellation (which I don't recall).
3. Modern astronomy can determine the precise location that any start or planet will appear in the night sky from any location on earth with great precision going backwards and forwards millions of years.
4. We'll get back to 3 in a moment. Now, it has been known that when the Monk Gregor created our modern calendar he missed the date of Jesus's birth by +/- 5 years give or take a couple.
5. Now when the numbers are crunched for 3, it gets a date in January 4 BC. The exact date is within a day or two of Orthodox Christmas.
6 Coming from Persia given the transportation tech of the day and the intervening landscape, it would have taken 9-11 months for the Magi to reach Judea. Of course they got held up in the Palace of Herod for a while.
7 Going back to 3, when would the planet Venus have appeared to be directly above Bethlehem when looking out from Harrod's palace. . The answer turns out to be (IIRC) Dec 23, 4 BC.
Now, The Catholic Church may have chosen Dec over January to steal the thunder from Pagan winter solstice celebrations, but there are still valid doctrinal reasons for the choice.
Now, The Catholic Church may have chosen Dec over January to steal the thunder from Pagan winter solstice celebrations, but there are still valid doctrinal reasons for the choice.
As an Orthodox Christian, I prefer the far simpler solution - it is exactly 9 months after the Annunciation.
The rest of the exercise is left to the reader. :-)
As an Orthodox Christian, I prefer the far simpler solution - it is exactly 9 months after the Annunciation.
And how do they know the date for the Annunciation?
And how do they know the date for the Annunciation?
That's easy. It's nine months before Christmas.
And how do they know the date for the Annunciation?
The Annunciation was, in Eastern Orthodox tradition, and according to Saint Ephraim the Syrian, on 10 Nissan, which falls on March 25th in some years. There is at least some evidence that that date was selected first as the Incarnation is one of the oldest of the Twelve Great Feasts in terms of being widely celebrated.
The earliest source we have for December 25th as the date of birth of Jesus is from Hippolytus of Rome, in the early 3rd century, and is based on his belief that the conception/incarnation of Jesus occurred on March 25th. He added nine months and came up with Dec 25th.
In the end, though, the exact date is less important than the theological lessons of the celebration of the feast days.
on 10 Nissan, which falls on March 25th in some years
10 Nissan is April 10th. It doesn't move. Nissan is April in the solar year.
I guess Jesus was two weeks premature.
10 Nissan is April 10th. It doesn't move. Nissan is April in the solar year.
The calendar changed...and has continued to change. Cf US calendars September of 1752 for one example. This is the source of no end of disputes among the Orthodox. Google 'old calendar Orthodox' and you'll see just how crazy it is. Or Google 'Kyriopascha' - a special service which can only be conducted by those who follow the 'Old Calendar' and which is one of the arguments against the 'New Calendar'
Right now, they're off by 13 days. It'll be 14 days as of 1 March 2100.
You have to take all of that into account when referring to dates in the historical past.
And all of that ignores the variations in calculating years (AD is a relatively late development).
two weeks premature.
Keep in mind that a 9 month gestation period from the medical perspective is only an average. Only 4% of births actually happen at exactly 280 days / 40 weeks.
In my particular case, my parents anniversary was on March 17th. My birthday in December is a week earlier than that.
Greeks are Orthodox, are they not? So why doesn't Greece hold lottery draws on 25th December, instead postponing them until 26th?
AJ
According to the account of the birth of Jesus in the King James version of the Holy Bible Jesus was born in Spring and not the dead of winter. This is clear from the mild weather while Joseph and Mary were traveling and by the shepherds being in the fields tending their flocks and the lambs mentioned in the account. So you need only work out when the height of the lambing time is in that area to know the two week time frame his birth was in.
The Holy Catholic Church picked the December date for their own political reason, just the same as they made out Joseph to be poor, which he decidedly was not. Only the rich people went to their family home for the census as any poor people who had moved away from father's home could not afford the time off to go to the birth home just for the census.
Choices made by Rome are of little interest to Orthodox Christians. Rome went her own way for her own reasons. And there are myriad theological differences.
Nothing in the Orthodox tradition declares Joseph to be poor - he was a craftsman ('teknon'). In the Orthodox tradition he's often seen as a reasonably well-to-do man who took care of the Theotokos until his death before Jesus' ministry began.
The Scriptures were never meant to be read literally, nor are they the only source of Church doctrine.
At the time of the date of the Annunciation being put forth, there was no such thing as the 'Roman Catholic Church' (despite their claims to the contrary) and nobody knows for sure where Hippolytus (who proposed the dates) actually lived (likely somewhere in the Eastern part of the empire, not Rome as alleged at times), and he sure didn't get along with the Roman bishops from the evidence we have.
Remember, the Roman Catholic Church, as you know it, is a product of the Great Schism in the 11th century, and only after that did the Patriarch of Rome have any real authority outside the western part of the Roman Empire. He was 'First Among Equals' with the Patriarchs of Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria. And later Constantinople, which became 'Primus inter pares' when Rome departed.
According to the account of the birth of Jesus in the King James version of the Holy Bible Jesus was born in Spring and not the dead of winter. This is clear from the mild weather while Joseph and Mary were traveling and by the shepherds being in the fields tending their flocks and the lambs mentioned in the account.
The mild weather doesn't mean what you think.
https://www.climatestotravel.com/climate/israel
The January average daily low temp for Tel Aviv is 10C/50F
The December average low is 12C/54F This would be mild weather by any objective standard.
The warmest part of the year (Aug) there the highs are 30C/86F. There isn't as much seasonal variation as you imagine. The total seasonal variation in both highs and lows is only around 13C. Not that much.
and by the shepherds being in the fields tending their flocks and the lambs mentioned in the account
1. Sheep would be considered lambs until they have passed their first year.
2. No, Lambs are not specifically mentioned in the King James nativity story.
The shepherds part in the story appears only in Luke 2:8 to 2:20 and no, there is no mention of lambs.
The mild weather doesn't mean what you think.
https://www.climatestotravel.com/climate/israel
So, nowadays, snow is not uncommon in upland areas like Bethlehem during January and February. Imagine how much colder it must have been before the industrial revolution raised global temperatures. ;)
AJ
Imagine how much colder it must have been before the industrial revolution raised global temperatures.
Not just global warming. I live in the desert. In the olden days, it would be in the 100s during the day and cold at night. But nowadays with all the concrete, grass, swimming pools, etc., it doesn't cool off at night.
Imagine how much colder it must have been before the industrial revolution raised global temperatures. ;)
By a whole 1 degree?
And that's coming out of the little ice age. The events of the New Testament took place during the Roman warm period (which was likely warmer than today.)
The events of the New Testament took place during the Roman warm period (which was likely warmer than today.)
You missed my smiley!
But yes, even with the current warm spell, wine producing in Britain is still short of where it got to during the Roman Empire, and that's despite the development of hardier varieties of grapes.
British wines were highly prized, allegedly the influence of chalk downlands on the taste.
AJ
British wines
I tell my friends who live in Faversham (Kent) they should grow grapes to make Favershampagne.
I am starting to see Yappy New Hear.
All those people getting puppies as Christmas presents ...
AJ