I am confused. Many authors seem to reflexively use "... and I" when the context clearly indicates that "it happened to her and me." It seems to me that "... and I" only applies when they are the subject. Any comments?
Robin
I am confused. Many authors seem to reflexively use "... and I" when the context clearly indicates that "it happened to her and me." It seems to me that "... and I" only applies when they are the subject. Any comments?
Robin
It seems to me that "... and I" only applies when they are the subject.
True. "I" is a subject and "me" is an object. By the way, "you" is both.
I love Sue and Sue loves me.
but…
You love Sue and Sue loves you.
I love Sue and Sue loves me.
but…
You love Sue and Sue loves you.
Considering the context, I think the following might be more appropriate:
Karla and I love Joelly and Joelly loves Karla and me.
;)
AJ
I love Sue and Sue loves me.
but…
You love Sue and Sue loves you.
There is a perfectly good second person singular pronoun in English.
Thou love Sue and Sue loves thee.
You've got to conjugate the verb for second person, too. It's: "Thou lovest Sue and Sue loves thee." (Or "loveth thee" if you really want to get archaic.)
The second person plural used to have distinct nominative and objective forms, too: "Ye love Sue and Sue loves you."
We also used to have a second person dual. (git/inc/incer) The dual was vestigial even in Old English, though.
I can't help feeling there are other archaic words that are the result of declension. I'm pondering whether 'whence' qualifies.
AJ
I can't help feeling there are other archaic words that are the result of declension. I'm pondering whether 'whence' qualifies.
Maybe. It all depends on how you look at it. For example, in Middle English, one added an 's' to mark the third-person singular indicative of adverbs. And there are other things which we can point to that are the product of declension in Old and Middle English.
But, in current usage, we're pretty much limited to the pronouns (except in the possessive case), and even there, 'whom' is on life support, kept alive by pedants such as me.
In the end, we're likely to lose all of remnants of declension, which are only kept alive now by grade school English teachers and style guides!
But, in current usage, we're pretty much limited to the pronouns (except in the possessive case), and even there, 'whom' is on life support, kept alive by pedants such as me.
Agreeing with the "life support" assertion. There's a dictionary - I forget which one - in which there's a panel of linguists who comment on which words are best suited. As long ago as the 1970s, the majority (but not all) of their panel argued against using "whom," and one panelist (well enough known for me to recognize the name then but not well enough known for me to remember the name now) said using whom was "uppity."
I can't help feeling there are other archaic words that are the result of declension.
Not even archaic. "Who", "what", "whose", "whom", and "why" are all declined forms of the same interrogative pronoun. (Masculine nominative, neuter nominative, genitive, dative, and instrumental, respectively.) "The" is a declined form of "that".
I'm pondering whether 'whence' qualifies.
"Whence" isn't really one of them, though. It follows a fairly consistent method of forming interrogatives (it/that/what, here/there/where, hence/thence/whence), but it's not declension, as such.
The 'problem' arises because in English, only pronouns use case (except for the possessive).
See, for example: Case in English
See, for example: Case in English
I think the article is wrong - there are other cases in English but we don't use different pronouns for them. They're often indicated by words like 'to', 'from', 'by', 'with', 'for', 'between' etc. The objective/accusative forms of the pronouns should be used. "Between you and I, ...," for example, is wrong.
AJ
I think the article is wrong - there are other cases in English but we don't use different pronouns for them.
Which I think was the point. We don't decline except for pronouns (and possessive).
And there is the Imperative case. Latin "Lux Sit" meaning: Let there be light, the motto of the University of Washington, "sit" is the imperative form of the verb "to be" (esse in Latin). I am not certain there is a special form in English or American for Imperative. There is always "Go Away! which I believe to be imperative.