Forum: Editors/Reviewers Hangout

I don't consider this kind of issue when reviewing. Technical score is more ...

I'd agree with you it would be a disservice to SOL readers if reviewers here downgraded technical scores over such minutiae.

As an ultra-finicky editor who only wants to work with very finicky authors, the standards I try for are as near as possible to the most common variation found in dead-tree fiction produced by major publishing houses.

But I'm not a fanatic who tells authors they must do what I think is best. I'll happily check an author is being consistent to any alternative standards they define as their preferences.

the general convention in IT is that both scale and unit are lower case for bits(kb, mb, gb) and uppercase for bytes (KB, MB, GB).

Thank you for that information. :-)

That makes sense and I'll remember that lowercase is used for the smaller of bits and bytes.

That makes sense and I'll remember that lowercase is used for the smaller of bits and bytes.

There's a nice wikipedia page with different tables: Units derived from bit.
Originally values in IT were all binary values but nowadays the SI standard (base10) is mostly used. That's why a hard disk seems to have less space than is advertised on the package.

Billion - Maybe a little less important but the value behind the word billion has a different meaning in different countries.

Thanks for reminding me of that.

I think the British-style billion is effectively dead across the English-speaking world nowadays. My reaction on being reminded of the difference was to assume that the British (and Australian) style was a thousand million, so the American style must be the million million. Certainly the smaller units are routinely used in British newspapers and UK government websites. When I checked Wiki, it said that was the other way around and America has always used the smaller units.

Perhaps that could be relevant for historical stories written in BrE, but otherwise I'm going to assume readers will have no doubts that billions are the smaller units.

It reminds me of the times I've been to India. I could never get my head around their numbering system which has 1 lakh = 1,00,000 and 1 crore = 1,00,00,000.

1 lakh = 1,00,000 and 1 crore = 1,00,00,000.

Another American versus other English difference is the number of zeros between commas. In America (the Disunited States) one million is 1,000,000 and a billion is 1,000,000,000. There are fewer zeros in lakh and crore.

Thank you. I don't disagree with any of that but it's not what I was trying to ask.

My question is:
Having decided to show a value as a numeral with an abbreviation for the units, how do you choose the format to display the units?

Sorry, I misread the title.

Thank you. It's okay.

There are some International Standard Organization documents

Thank you. I think that will do nicely for my needs.

I do not want to discuss when and/or why I would prefer to write numeric values and/or units as full words. Been there; still waiting for bruises to heal. :-)

My OP was specifically asking about things like '9mm'. I've had a rethink since posting that and I'm now inclined to think there should not be a space between numeric values and units.

I'm still not comfortable about when units should include uppercase letters. I accept an anomaly that for IT units, bits and bytes are lower and uppercase. Also the metric system has units named after people which need uppercase.

Apart from that, I cannot see why I should not use lowercase for 'btu'.

I'm still not comfortable about when units should include uppercase letters. I accept an anomaly that for IT units, bits and bytes are lower and uppercase. Also the metric system has units named after people which need uppercase.
Apart from that, I cannot see why I should not use lowercase for 'btu'.

BTU (or Btu, both are correct) is not a SI unit. Nowadays Btu is mainly a US customary unit.
Now to your original question. SI prescribes how to use the units in text:
'thirteen km' is wrong, correct is '13 km', 'thirteen kilometer', or '13 kilometer'.
'500 km per second' is wrong, correct is: '500 kilometer per second', or '500 km/s'
Officially the decimal point is a comma (,) and the thousand separator a point (.). In English writing it is allowed to switch them but it's not the official SI standard.
So it's not a question of writing 1 to 10 as words and bigger as digits, it's about how you write the combination of the value and the unit.

edit: corrected a wrong quote

Your post lays out the uses very well, except

'500 kilometer per second'

Will often be '500 kilometres per second'

Because more than 1 kilometre is plural.

Might not be strictly correct, but it does make sense and is used regularly.

Will often be '500 kilometres per second'

You're right, a translation mistake from Dutch to English.

You're right, a translation mistake from Dutch to English.

Easily done.

Also worth confirming that 10km is never 10kms

The s is only added when the full word is used. 1 kilometre / several kilometres

Also worth confirming that 10km is never 10kms

Neither ;) There should be a space between the value and the unit.
Units Checklist (rule#15) It's mostly for scientific papers (manuscripts) but is a good reference for general writing too.

Also worth confirming that 10km is never 10kms

Neither ;) There should be a space between the value and the unit.

Units Checklist (rule#15) It's mostly for scientific papers (manuscripts) but is a good reference for general writing too.

Ok, so google "the times newspaper article on speed 10km"

You will find that the Times Newspaper (London) and the New York Times both using 10km NOT 10 km

Attributed to Douglas Bader is the quote: "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

You will find that the Times Newspaper (London) and the New York Times both using 10km NOT 10 km

I never stated that everyone must follow the official rules. Reporters and authors are known to play loosely with rules ;)

edit: typo

I never stated that everyone must follow the official rules.

No, you didn't.

I'm only being pedantic because the use of a space is germane to the OP's question.

I'm only being pedantic because the use of a space is germane to the OP's question.

Ah, but it's not germane to the OP's question.
Ross' first sentence was "Are there any usual conventions for showing amounts and units in text?"

Sorry, now I'm being pedantic ;)

So I can see why they wouldn't want the extra space.

Agreed.

The issue is between what is considered correct usage by the various bodies who dictate such things. (Not all of whom agree) And what is actual in common usage.

There is an element of; "It must be true, I read it in the paper." People see it and use it, presuming the paper is 'correct'.

Sometimes being 'correct' actual appears wrong to readers used to seeing a different format or whatever.

Obviously if writing a scientific paper the 'correct' usage would be used, but the OP was seeking the correct use in fiction. Which I would suggest is that which is in common use, not the 'correct' but rarely used form. (Where a difference exists, obviously)

Which is where style guides come in.

Again, agreed.

But only if they are generally followed, a style guide that is ignored by newspapers, story authors et al, isn't worth following however correct, because following it means the reader isn't presented with what they see everywhere else, therefore they see it as wrong.

The English language is dynamic, new words appear, the meaning of words can change over time, a style guide has to be relevant or it's pointless. How exactly that is achieved, I have no idea. But personally I think sometimes it's better to follow current usage in a story, because it's less distracting for the reader.

I'm not trying to denigrate style guides or those who follow them, just point out that 'currently relevant' can be more important than 'technically correct'.

just like newspaper companies are based on the AP Style guide

You've made this claim before.

However, I looked into it and at least a couple of the well known newspapers with their own style guides, the NYT style guide for example, are older than the AP style guide.

How much sense does in make to claim that a newspaper style guide that existed before the creation of the AP style guide is based on the AP style guide?

I'd say that's still it's primary target group.

I'd say its target group and the audience who use it are very different different.

Yes, it is specifically written for the needs of authors who publish with the University of Chicago Press.

But, either it or guides containing similar details (and hopefully easier to use) are widely used across most types of books published, excluding some specialist fields with their own specific guides.

I have more reasons than anyone else here to despise the darn thing, but I can't deny that its influence on American book publishing is almost ubiquitous.

they just have people who prefer to use them.

Or -- ever so reluctantly -- feel obliged to use them. :(

I don't deny your history of how American publishing arrived at its current state on this point.

BTW, I'd be ever so grateful if you could identify any alternative which covers similar ground but is easier to use.

You will find that the Times Newspaper (London) and the New York Times both using 10km NOT 10 km

Newspapers tend to be obsessive about minimizing space utilized for individual articles.

As such, I would not recommend following a newspaper style guide for general writing.

As such, I would not recommend following a newspaper style guide for general writing.

Neither would I.

My point is that people read newspapers, see 10km not 10 km and so when an author follows a style guide that suggests 10 km and follows it, the reader sees it as an error.

Ok, simplified example, but I'm sure you get my point. Not that I expect agreement. Then again, we are discussing style guides, not style laws.

I don't understand the objection. Is there something wrong, in general writing, of minimizing space? If it's personal preference, fine, but if I want to make it 10km or if I write "$101" instead of "one hundred and one dollars" have I committed some sin?
One thing I learned with conversations with dictionary editors (I've had several) is that rules change over time because dictionaries since the early 1960s have reported what IS being used instead of what SHOULD be used. If enough people start writing "I want a nickle that's worth 5 cents," the dictionaries will follow.
There used to be a rule that you could never start a sentence with a numeral. The wire services in the mid 1970s began making exceptions to that rule, giving as an example that from then on it would be okay to write "1976 was a very good year."
My argument would be that if it's understandable, you know why you're doing it, and you do it consistently, it's okay (dictionaries generally prefer O.K. instead of okay).
Wire service style books call for generally the same guidelines. That's because newspapers want to follow a consistent style, and if wire services use different styles, newspapers then have to edit one or more wire services to make their style comply with the one adopted by the newspaper.
Most newspapers follow the same style as the wire service stylebooks. Some of the larger newspapers have their own stylebooks and differ from the wire service stylebooks in some instances.
The New York Times has its own stylebook, but the New York Times News Service (which sells stories to other newspapers) complies with the generally accepted styles of the other wire services, which is different from the parent newspaper in several instances.

dictionaries generally prefer O.K. instead of okay

A minor nitpick. All dictionaries I've seen say that 'OK' and 'okay' are interchangeable.

AFAIK, there are three common words which dictionaries say are correctly spelt with two uppercase letters: 'OK', 'TV', and 'ID'.

My argument would be that if it's understandable, you know why you're doing it, and you do it consistently, it's okay (dictionaries generally prefer O.K. instead of okay).

This. Understandable and consistent are way more important then following the exact rules. If in doubt you can check was the official rule is and then decide if that is how you want it to look.
The official rule is '10 km' but I don't care IF that format is used consistently. I understand 10km just as well.

The official rule is '10 km'

Whose official rule? Others on this forum seem to disagree.

The official rule is '10 km'

Whose official rule? Others on this forum seem to disagree.

NIST units Checklist See rule #15.

That seems to be the standard adopted for scientific purposes (including in Britland)

From what I read it's the standard for writing SI units and quantities. You could just use it as a guideline. It's more important to be consistent in the way you present them and that it's understandable for readers. If you take text-to-voice into account I would include space the since that will probable sound better when synthesized to speech.

I think my preferred style is to leave a whitespace with words but no space for abbreviations eg five kilometre run, 5km run.

That's perfectly fine, you're not writing scientific papers. Every reader understands what you wrote and that's the most important. Just use the same format consistently.

@awnlee jawking
I think my preferred style is to leave a whitespace with words but no space for abbreviations eg five kilometre run, 5km run.

@Keet
That's perfectly fine, you're not writing scientific papers. Every reader understands what you wrote and that's the most important. Just use the same format consistently.

I appreciate the link you provided above to the ISO standards. I'm now thinking I am entitled to choose a personal style, it should have some internal consistency, and the choice should be made on the basis of what is easiest for readers to comprehend.

I'm coming around to the view that no space between a number and units makes it clearer to readers that a small group of lowercase letters separated from anything else is not an ordinary word.

I'm now thinking I am entitled to choose a personal style, it should have some internal consistency, and the choice should be made on the basis of what is easiest for readers to comprehend.

You are always entitled to choose your own style. You are the writer, so you are the boss ;)
edit typo

One thing to keep in mind is how something will sound on a text to voice program, watch some of those automated YouTube news clips and you can see how bad they come can out. words are always read as words, while numerals may be read as single digits at a time or as a value if it has commas in it. I've seen one program voice one zero zero one two dollars as against ten thousand and twelve dollars.

*off-topic*
There is special html5 markup you can use for text-to-speech. It's a study to understand and implementing is a big job. But you can do all kinds of nifty things with like changing the volume for words or parts of a sentence, change the speed or even change the language.
What I was getting at is that you could print '911' as text and use TTS markup to ensure it's spoken as nine-one-one. You will have to look it up because I never used it myself and don't know the exact syntax.

TTS

teletype service? or something else?

TTS

teletype service? or something else?

Text To Speech

I don't understand the objection. Is there something wrong, in general writing, of minimizing space?

Generally speaking, my personal experience is that a more generous use of white space makes things easier to read.

Generally speaking, my personal experience is that a more generous use of white space makes things easier to read.

That is a comment which I think belongs in the Style Guide thread.

The problem for authors of fiction with all style guides I know of is that their focus is on precision of meaning in all situations.

Our focus should be on ease of reading, with consistency only really needed within each body of work.

The Triangle sits around Miyake, an island lying 100 km south of Tokyo.

Then you're justified... Or the article's text was.

Then you're justified... Or the article's text was.

Justified Right, Left, or Center? :)

Justified Right, Left, or Center? :)

Newspapers generally justify text center, and politics left.

BTU (or Btu, both are correct)

Yes, thanks. I agree the B must be uppercase because it stands for the proper adjective British.

You seem to be specifying:
* if the number is written in full the units must be too
* units must be written in full or the abbreviation in full, not some mix of full and abbreviated words

Is that what you meant?

AFAIK, all English-speaking countries use commas to divide in thousands a full stop for the decimal point.

You seem to be specifying:

* if the number is written in full the units must be too

* units must be written in full or the abbreviation in full, not some mix of full and abbreviated words

Is that what you meant?

Yes. If you have doubts about a specific value/unit combination check the wikipedia page for SI and the link I provided some posts back from the NIST institute.

Unit symbols and the values of quantities
NIST Units Checklist

edit: added links

Unit symbols and the values of quantities

Thanks. That's the kind of reference I was hoping for with the OP.

yes, a space otherwise the wicked witch of the spell check will get angry. It also looks neater.

as to BTU vs btu - it's an acronym, so it usually get's capitals.

There should be a space between the value and the unit (see the link in my previous post) but when referring to guns '9mm' is almost accepted as a unit in itself so I would not have a problem with it.

BTU is an acronym but both BTU and Btu are correct.
edit: added 'not' ;)

1. In narrative all figures under 100 be in words and over 100 in numerals.

2. In narrative all figures under 10 be in words and over 10 in numerals.

Was there a decision on how to write 10 (ten) or 100 (one hundred). The points give guidance on how to write under and over those numbers.

One of those issues like being 17 or older. If you were born at 11:59 pm on December 31st are you 17 at 12:01 am on December 31st or do you have to wait when you are exactly 16 plus 365 24 hour days? What about traveling and crossing the international date line? You can be 17 on one side of the date line and still 16 and 364 days on the other side. It would make a difference on SOL for the 14th birthday.

Some said you went one through to nine, ten, 11, 12

That's the usual style for BrE and I expect all newspapers too.

others said you went one through to ninety-nine, one hundred 101, 102

That's the more usual style for AmE.

That's the usual style for BrE and I expect all newspapers too.

Yes that's the usual style for BrE

BUT

Current newsprint and BBC personal often mispronounce words and/or use the AmE version. Annoys me no end, worse is text speak, which is also slowly creeping into both newspapers and BBC news/current affairs programmes.

Re your numerical shorthand, £1K is often used for £1,000.00 the K being stolen from the metric K meaning thousand.

Was there a decision on how to write 10 (ten) or 100 (one hundred). The points give guidance on how to write under and over those numbers.

AFAIK, CMoS (AmE) suggests numbers up to and including one hundred are written as words, while Harts (BrE) suggests up to ten.

For both, round numbers (some number of hundreds, thousands, ...) are written as words if the multiple is small enough to be written as a word too.

One of those issues like being 17 or older. If you were born at 11:59 pm on December 31st are you 17 at 12:01 am on December 31st or do you have to wait when you are exactly 16 plus 365 24 hour days? What about traveling and crossing the international date line? You can be 17 on one side of the date line and still 16 and 364 days on the other side. It would make a difference on SOL for the 14th birthday.

If time of birth is known, convert to GMT, then do relevant conversion from GMT to local time to determine age. ;)

If time of birth is known, convert to GMT, then do relevant conversion from GMT to local time to determine age. ;)

Unless you are calculating the age of a racehorse.

ALL racehorses born in the northern hemisphere are considered to be one year older on January the 1st, regardless of their actual birth date.

For the southern hemisphere the same applies but they are considered one year older on the 1st August.

While many people agreed with most of the above there were some who didn't. The final consensus was for people to use what they felt was best.

There were also many comments by people on what they found annoying in stories and the biggest annoyance was the use of numerals in dialogue instead of the words.

The Roman numerals are the ones that get really annoying. ;)

I would more hold to usage of word vs number needing to be consistent internally to what is being written. But then I have been all over the map myself on application.

When talking about actual measurements, I will (almost) always write it numerically. So 3 inches, 3 miles, or their metric alternatives normally see the actual number. But when it comes to counting things, such as "Bob and his three friends" for example, the number gets spelled out. Otherwise the differentiation on which gets used is often arbitrary and capricious and subject largely to personal whim and/or laziness. It takes one keystroke to hit the number 3, but it takes five keystrokes to spell out three.

What annoys me more is only really an issue due to use of speech-to-text her for much of my current "reading." Where shorthand notations and other such things not understood by speech to text get employed. So " for inches and ' for feet creates a " What?" Moment when the reader hits 5'6" and reads it as "fivesix" instead as an example.

1. In narrative all figures under 100 be in words and over 100 in numerals.

What about non-integer decimal numbers (3.14, 2.56,...)?

If, in writing fiction, you spell out all numbers, regardless of size, i.e., he said, "sixteen and a-half billion dollars is as high as he can go," and in text you use numerals for anything over 10, i.e., $16.5 billion is as high as I can go, is that likely to be confusing to readers because the style inside and outside of dialogue is different?

Moon Unit Zappa prefers to be known as Moon Zappa ;)

What about Diva Muffin Zappa or Ahmet Emuukha Rodan Zappa?

Whilst I'm sure most if not all of us appreciate your including a link to your source, I and very probably others here do not consider Wikipedia to be an authority on anything.

Granted Wikipedia often includes references to sources, but it's rare that the link actually takes you to the part of the source document required to authenticate it.

Whilst I'm sure most if not all of us appreciate your including a link to your source, I and very probably others here do not consider Wikipedia to be an authority on anything.

Granted Wikipedia often includes references to sources, but it's rare that the link actually takes you to the part of the source document required to authenticate it.

And I couldn't agree with you more. But there's a difference in type of date. I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia for data on persons, politics, religion, etc. but for verifiable scientific data like the SI system it's perfectly fine.
You're also right that it includes sources, that's how I found the NIST checklist ;)

the Kardashians

The who..??

I think the correct spelling is cardigan. (BrE anyway)

You missed the (spit!) that should automatically follow the name 'Wikipedia'.

So did you..!!

(DON'T even about getting me started on the demented people who stick "U"s in the middle of perfectly good words like "color". THOSE people should be horse whipped then summarily shot!)

You Americans didn't invent the word color, you had to be an ass and change it, just to put a finger up to the UK a long time ago. Every civilized English speaking country uses 'colour' ;)

Yes we DID! Americans a_thored all of the words like color, flavor and parlor! The Brits are just trying to steal them by disg_ising them with "U"s!

That's why I say we need to boycott that _nnecessary letter and b_ild a wall around o_r wondro_s vocab_lary to keep them from ab_sing it!!! Then we'll make "U" pay for it!

Yes we DID! Americans a_thored all of the words like color, flavor and parlor! The Brits are just trying to steal them by disg_ising them with "U"s!

That's why I say we need to boycott that _nnecessary letter and b_ild a wall around o_r wondro_s vocab_lary to keep them from ab_sing it!!! Then we'll make "U" pay for it!

Now, now, no need to get upset with the big words containing u's. With patience you will learn to. I'm Dutch, I had to learn it too after I had to learn Dutch ;)

Then we'll make "U" pay for it!

Strange. I always thought you Non native Americans had to lose the 'U' from your words to enable 'U' Haul to expand across your nation..

I presume you do realise that if you go on dropping vowels from your words you will soon be speaking Welsh..??

Then ewe will pay..!!

Every civilized English speaking country uses 'colour' ;)

HOW DARE YOU! Accusing Australia of being 'civilized'?

I concede it's debatable how civilised we are - but we are definitely not civilized!

I concede it's debatable how civilised we are - but we are definitely not civilized!

That's just because you ran out of z's when printing the dictionary. The only option was to replace it with s ;)

I concede it's debatable how civilised we are

No debate necessary. We are all well aware that Australia was just the prototype for creating the real deal. New Zealand...

(Lights fuse and exits stage left)

Which is a replica of Zeeland, ie Dutch

Don't you mean the Orange Free State, SA ?? Even speak Dutch, well 'taal.

I know Zeeland

Hard to imagine New Zealand being a replica, if it is, what exactly made you destroy all those mountains?? So sad that the Zeeland Mountain Rescue Club was disbanded.

Then there is the tulip war and South Lincolnshire being called South Holland

They had no such excuse for New Netherland and New Amsterdam.

They tried out New Holland for Australia too. It didn't stick.

New Amsterdam.

Nude hamster dance?

Not knowingly. You'll have to explain that to me.

Easier if you just look up 'Orange Free State' using Gooble, or that W..... site you loathe so much.

Useless clickbait :(

No personal experience but I've been warned that even a casual pass through the Quora site gets you cookies that stick like goose sh*t to a blanket.

(Love those old fashioned expressions.)

Clickbait indeed, visit often if you like catching clicks...

I can't guarantee there isn't a pig in them

Don't be so hard on yourself..!!

Umm... I'll try that again...

Don't put yourself down..!!

That's just as bad. But I'll get you innuendo...

Maybe I'll stick with being happy there's no goose shit...

Oh hell, just go hog wild..!!

Hence I fully deserve any self-deprecation.

Only accountants should self depreciate.

Also. Once you learn to ride a bike, even years later, you never forget how to fall off.

Senility is natures way of reminding you it's never too late to make new memories. Doubtless you'll do so stylishly.

Does that qualify as an ePIGram?

Oink, oink!

I'm hog-tied to the hog-ride

Ok, so you're into bondage and a weird porcine rodeo fetish...??

Write it up and I'll buy the book. Unless of course you're selling a pig in a poke..??

I'll let you deal with this one, AJ.

@awnlee jawking
I'm hog-tied to the hog-ride

@JoyR
Ok, so you're into bondage and a weird porcine rodeo fetish...??
Write it up and I'll buy the book. Unless of course you're selling a pig in a poke..??

I'll let you deal with this one, AJ.

Spoilsport..!! You are welcome to piggy-back on our boaring little exchanges.

Australia was just the prototype for creating the real deal. New Zealand...
(Lights fuse and exits stage left)

KIWIS ????
You dare to even compare those sheep-shagging, vowl-clpping dullrds to us !!!!!!!!
Oh, I'm contacting my friends in Sinn Fein straight away.