Forum: Bug Report and Feature Requests

I'd prefer pass-through all quotes as entered, whether curly or straight, but I'm also in a minority. The quote conversion routines for stories are, um, buggy.

edit to add: I don't use the em dash as there is no consistent way in how they're handled by e-book readers and browsers, so I avoid them to remove that problem.

I've used the emdash, so now I'm curious about this problem. Can you provide more information?

I've used the emdash, so now I'm curious about this problem. Can you provide more information?

It's to do with the way some browsers and some e-book readers display the em dash is such that there's almost no difference visible between an em dash and an en dash - in the same way as you mention is a problem here. Also, the problem can be made worse by how some fonts display them. In both browsers and e-book readers the user can override whatever you want to put in for fonts and font sizes, so you can't be sure how it will look due to the variants in size and display. Thus there can be confusion in what the reader is seeing on their screen: an en dash or an em dash.

Then you also have the issue of line splitting and some systems sticking a hyphen in to show the split. I've seen some cases where the line split was at an em dash so the e-book reader had a hyphen for the split then the em dash as the proper normal display of an em dash is as if it's another letter at that point.

I've yet to see an instance where someone has used an em dash that could not have been written without the em dash by using some other punctuation instead. I've seen authors on SoL use and em dash on either side of a phrase where commas would be more appropriate. Example: Fred spoke to Gina, his sister-in-law, about the use of his car while he was away. - - I've seen people use an em dash in place of the commas in that situation, yet commas is the more readily understood usage in that situation.

I've seen authors on SoL use and em dash on either side of a phrase where commas would be more appropriate.

Used instead of parentheses, not commas. And the em-dash is the standard for interrupted speech. I don't know how you can avoid the em-dash in fiction.

And the em-dash is the standard for interrupted speech.

For interrupted speech different style guides say to sue an em dash, some say to use an ellipsis and others say to have no closing punctuation in the dialogue section. There is no set style or standard for it.

As for the 'replace parentheses' usage, what type of information are you putting in the sentence that you'd use parentheses or em dashes for that commas wouldn't be a good use for?

what type of information are you putting in the sentence that you'd use parentheses or em dashes for that commas wouldn't be a good use for?

From Grammarly:

Using em dashes instead of parentheses puts the focus on the information between the em dashes.

More focus than simple commas.

And the em-dash is used to set off a word or clause for emphasis.

ETA:

Here's an example of using the em-dash for emphasis (from my novel "Lonely War Widows"):

Boyd opened his eyes—for an instant. They snapped back shut at the blaring bright light.

I didn't even need a comma where the em-dash is. But I wanted to emphasis the "for an instant."

And the em-dash is used to set off a word or clause for emphasis.

If you want to emphasis things there are many ways to do it and the easiest is to bold the relevant word or two you wish to emphasis.

In most instances where I've seen an em dash used it's been used as a from of lazy writing to enable them to not form the sentence properly. While it's possible many authors are misusing and em dash, I don't see it as something you can't work without.

If you want to add something on the end of a sentence a space hyphen space then text works just as well and will always display correctly.

If you want to use the em dash to avoid using two commas because you think you already have too many commas, then it might be a good idea to review how you've written the sentence as you may over complicated it.

Like a lot of things to do with writing style, it's the author's choice as to what they do. I choose to not use the em dash because I've seen it lead to confusion and because it may not display properly at all times, which is what started this thread.

If you want to emphasis things there are many ways to do it and the easiest is to bold the relevant word or two you wish to emphasis.

See the ETA in my last post where I added an example of emphasizing a clause.

See the ETA in my last post where I added an example of emphasizing a clause.

I'd write that in one of two ways, and depending on how much I wanted to emphasize parts it would be:

1. Boyd opened his eyes - for an instant.

2. Boyd opened his eyes, for only an instant.

1. Boyd opened his eyes - for an instant.

Except that's not a valid use of a hyphen. It should be an em-dash.

The hyphen is used to join words, like ten-year-old.

The en-dash is used for ranges, like 1900–1940 or January–June.

The em-dash is used for interrupted dialogue, to replace a colon to emphasis something, to replace parentheses to offset something.

You may see it as invalid use, but it is not in violation of any of the established uses of English and it totally avoids the display problems discussed.

You may see it as invalid use

I don't know who the authority would be so I went to grammarly.com. This is what they say about the hyphen at: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/hyphen/

What Is a Hyphen?

A hyphen (-) is a punctuation mark that's used to join words or parts of words. It's not interchangeable with other types of dashes.

Use a hyphen in a compound modifier when the modifier comes before the word it's modifying.

If you're not sure whether a compound word has a hyphen or not, check your preferred dictionary.

Notice the "It's not interchangeable with other types of dashes."

Grammar Girl's explanation is more in depth and complex, but it also wouldn't use the hyphen the way you have it in your example: https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/how-to-use-a-hyphen

Notice the "It's not interchangeable with other types of dashes."

That's the opinion of that person, and may even be shared by others, but it's not a universal opinion, and is no more a requirement for the world in general than the AP style guide is.

As I said, you can use whatever style you wish, but I will not use any style that can easily lead to reader confusion and the issues with the em dash does lead to confusion in many situations, so I avoid it.

That's the opinion of that person,

Well, that quote came from grammarly.com. I would expect they hire knowledgable subject-matter people. And Grammar Girl is an expert in the field.

If you don't want to use the em-dash because you don't think it will display properly, you should use a double hyphen (--).

In a solid science like geology you can hire people who have expert knowledge and experience. However, with the English language there is no such thing as an expert to the same extent and the best you can find is opinions and preferences, that's why there are so many style guides that disagree with each other on so many things.

Much of what you see on many sites is what people put forward as their won opinion or the opinions of them and some friends.

The closest you get to an 'expert' in the English language field is an English Professor who teaches at the university level, they deliberately limit themselves to stating what are the rules for Formal English and admit that they don't all apply to Informal English uses.

...........

personally, using a space hyphen and space provides a clearer display of intention than a double hyphen does.

The closest you get to an 'expert' in the English language field is an English Professor who teaches at the university level

The English language is in fact white supremacy. Why do I say that? I just read it in an article (https://www.yahoo.com/news/professor-says-grading-system-racist-184031733.html):

A professor at Arizona State University is calling for the end to "White supremacy language," and to do away with the common way of grading papers in favor of labor-based grading that will redistribute "power."

"White language supremacy in writing classrooms is due to the uneven and diverse linguistic legacies that everyone inherits, and the racialized white discourses that are used as standards, which give privilege to those students who embody those habits of white language already," Asao Inoue, professor of rhetoric and composition at Arizona State University, said.

Inoue added that White supremacy culture "makes up the culture and normal practices of our classrooms and disciplines." To combat the issues, Inoue suggested implementing labor-based grading, which "redistributes power in ways that allow for more diverse habits of language to circulate." He has also coined the phrase, "Habits of White Language," used to describe the common way teachers and professors grade papers.

Labor-based grading would mean weighing assignments based on how much "labor" students put into their work, and not assigning grades based on grammar or quality of work.

If you haven't thrown up yet, read the entire article. According to him (a university professor of rhetoric and composition) grammar and quality should not be considered when grading. How much effort you put into it is what's important.

Sorry, but I have no faith in what's being taught in school nowadays.

a space hyphen space then text works

That's true in British English as written by Brits. Em-dashes are seen as affected, the province of the few who want to win writing awards rather than communicate with the widest audience.

Luckily the em-dash looks pretty much like a hyphen, so readers can just treat it as one.

ETA I've just noticed that space hyphen space is used in my newspaper-du-jour to separate out text that one might expect to be enclosed by em-dashes.

AJ

ETA I've just noticed that space hyphen space is used in my newspaper-du-jour to separate out text that one might expect to be enclosed by em-dashes.

Just to confuse matters, I'm currently reading the medical section. It uses a different font and space em-dash (or at least, something a lot longer than a hyphen) space to separate out text.

AJ

CNN webpage does use spaces around a dash:
So does Reuters I believe. Aljazeera surely does:

Webpages usually follow some variant of the AP Style Guide. I believe that style guide has spaces on both sides of the em-dash.

Publishers of print books usually follow some variant of the Chicago Manual of Style. It does not have the spaces.

Now ebooks should logically follow the guides for webpages, but they follow the guides for print publishing. I guess they want it to look like a print book not a webpage.

an ebook should be considered a web site and thus follow the guidelines for web sites

In that case, an ebook should not have indented paragraphs but rather no indent with a blank line between them. I don't think I ever saw an ebook formatted that way.

In my post I specifically stated the difference between guidelines for the format (i.e. an ebook) and the contents (i.e. the story text itself)

I was responding to that. Paragraphing is format. And ebooks follow print format, not webpage format for paragraphs.

I forget how we got into this discussion, but my point is that ebooks, which are webpages, follow Chicago-like guidelines rather than AP-like guidelines. My guess is it's because ebooks are associated with the printing business so it mirrors what's on paper even though it's on an electronic screen.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying that's the way it is.

interpret 'format' as different things

For me, "format" is how the page is laid out — margins, indenting, centering, spacing, how the ellipsis is presented, how the em-dash is presented, curly quotes, etc.

To me, it seems ebooks try to emulate the look of a printed page. I guess they want you to feel like you're reading a printed book on your e-reader.

I wonder when the gap between electronic and printed will widen to the point where emulating a printed book is no longer preferred.

The internet was established to allow people to share documents. To make certain documents adhere to web page standards rather than the document's native standards is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

AJ

The internet was established to connect networks for communication

My understanding is that the originators wanted a common standard for accessing documents on remote computers.

The web standards are there so browser engines know how to render the display as the author intended.

If a 'document' is only for display by web browsers, it's not living up to the original aims. Prettifying documents for web browsers came later, since when HTML has mushroomed well beyond its original, simple form.

AJ

The ARPANET was about connecting computers to transfer data (a network).

That data was scientific papers, and the computers belonged to universities.

AJ

My understanding is that the originators wanted a common standard for accessing documents on remote computers.

I thought it was created by that guy at Xerox Labs so that they could communicate with each other. Maybe that was sharing docs.

I thought it was created by that guy at Xerox Labs so that they could communicate with each other. Maybe that was sharing docs.

The internet has certainly progressed a hell of a lot further than the original intention. So much content now exists only in web page format.

AJ

To make certain documents adhere to web page standards

We weren't talking about standards. It was about whether the em-dash should be surrounded by spaces or not. Someone mentioned (I think you) that newspapers and webpages had the spaces. I said they do because they follow some version of the AP Style Guide which has the spaces. I pointed out the publishing industry follows some version of the Chicago Manual of Style which doesn't. Although an ebook is like a webpage, it's also like a printed book and it seems the people who print books follow Chicago so ebook books don't have the spaces.

I think we mean the same but interpret 'format' as different things.

I've not bothered to go through this sub-thread discussion in detail, but it seems to me there is a conflagration between the 'layout' of the text within the document and the media 'format' requirements.

The original thread came about due to the differences in the 'display' of certain punctuation aspects due to the differences in the way the code used formats the display of the text. Then when this sub-thread broke out, I suspect you both started to get your wires crossed as to what aspects you were talking about while using the same words.