Forum: Story Ideas

moral question of a sort.

Remus2 🚫

So I'm paying for gas at a station down the road from me, and in walks this huge guy wearing a cut (vest) with rockers stating "unaffiliated on top and Tennessee on the bottom bracketing a silly wolf head graphic patch with a 1% off to the side. My first thought was poser, but I keep my mouth shut. As I'm getting my receipt, two bikes ride up to the other side of my pump, each rider was patched as a outlaw MC 1%er. So before I walk outside, I make sure the clip on my holster is loose and thumb off the safety.
Mr. "unaffiliated" bumps into me walking out the door. So I'm thinking should I warn him, or warn the clerk? That idiot immediately walks out into the intervening space between his bike and the outlaw members then stops and stares at them. I turn to the clerk and tell him he should call the cops immediately, to which I get a deer in the headlights look.

The three in the parking lot start jawing at each other and getting into each others faces. I walk out the door just as the poser throws a punch. In my mind I'm thinking "oh shit." They commenced to giving the poser a world class ass kicking. I look back through the glass and see the clerk on the phone, hopefully to the police. The poser is on the ground bleeding by this time. I walk on out to my truck and drive off. When I'm out of sight, I go to call it in but see a sheriff's car approaching at high speed. So I just go on home, expecting to get a call in the morning as they will have my tag on the stations video surveillance cams.

The moral questions are, should I have warned the poser, and should I have stepped in to stop the ass beating? To stop it, I would have had to pull my carry piece.

I know the local outlaw chapter types, they take great offense at the poser 1%ers and the "unaffiliated" rocker with the territory rocker (Tennessee). I was reasonably sure what was about to happen. What I wasn't sure of, was what the posers reaction would be if I tried to warn him. He could have just taken off the cut and avoided the ass beating.

So what say you?

Replies: Radagast Ernest Bywater ystokes StarFleet Carl blackjack2145309 awnlee jawking ystokes irvmull Ferrum1 Mushroom

Radagast 🚫

@Remus2

The only things you did wrong were:
A) telegraph to smart observers that you have a gun and break retention on it & (B) Swipe your safety off.
These open you to getting shot in the event of a gun grab and / or getting shot by a criminal's partner that you have not seen.
A 1911 style frame mounted safety is naturally disengaged by a high thumb grip. Slide mounted Beretta style safeties can also be flicked to 'fire' with the strong hand thumb as part of the draw. Just practise until its second nature.
A thumb break retention strap is useless against the trained and observant but works well against Mr Dindu Nuffin and Miss Cracker Mofo's itchy fingers. Maintain concealment, don't telegraph your potential actions or intent.
The unseen partner is not paranoia talking, its occurred multiple times. One example I'm aware of is Goblin shoots cop who walks into store Goblin was casing. Citizen draws on Goblin. Trollette standing to the side kills citizen. 30 seconds and two dead.
Other than that you did good. Getting involved in a mutually agreed combat between the dregs of society is idiotic. Pulling a gun on them is idiotic and probably illegal. You now have to argue you were in fear for the life of the dead beat who lost, so you threatened the lives of the dead beats that won. Chances of being charged with assault with a deadly weapon are high if you have an anti-gun police chief or DA. The problem with 'Reasonable man' defences in court is the jury may have a different view of reasonable to you.
Further, the winning guys 1%ers may have had concealed guns, the retard punched first, so they can claim they were at first acting in self defence, if you draw on them then you are arguably another assailant and they could justify shooting you.
The clerk should have had ballistic glass and a remote door lock, so he was safe. Getting in your car and leaving the area was the smart thing to do.

As a redskin you should internalize the wise saying of Tonto when faced with cracker on cracker crime: "What do you mean "We", White man?"

Replies: Remus2 StarFleet Carl

Remus2 🚫

@Radagast

Thanks for the reply. Already figured it was a bad idea to step in, which is why my firearm remained holstered. What bothered me more is that I've seen situations like that spill over to uninvolved people. I had to get within proximity of their bikes to get to my truck, which could have gone south fast. As far as "What do you mean we, white man," race never entered my mind, though it probably should have.
There were no "goblins or trollets" in the store unless you counted the clerk.

I've seen poser situations go south many times, though this was a first to directly witness the MC variant. The others were more in line with stolen valor and some idiot trying to impress a women with fictitious military service.

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫

@Remus2

Goblin is a technical term for an evil, non human, bipedal target. Dates back to Jeff Cooper's Gunsite Academy in less politically correct days. Trollette is my description for a Goblin's girlfriend.
Closest I've encountered to 'stolen valor' type was a reserve intel. Lieutenant who claimed to be a regular army Captain. His day job as a school teacher was his 'cover ID'.
He started playing with his loaded, privately owned Glock which was his "issue weapon" while drinking in a bar. I left. He managed to make it home before ADing into his rec room wall.
My rule of thumb is to take fantastical lies about power, skills and associations as a warning. People know themselves. If they hate themselves so much that they have to project a fake persona, then I'm not going to find the real 'them' worth knowing. Trying to beat reality into them isn't going to work so I just walk away.

The guy went into great lengths in telling me how much he enjoyed beating down posers.

He was telling you that if you crossed the set of arbitrary rules he had constructed that allows him to internally justify his violent compulsions, then he was going to attack you. A variation on a wife beater telling his lady 'don't piss me off'.
Hunter S. Thompson crossed one of those unspoken lines while writing his book on the Hells Angels and received a brutal stomping.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Radagast

He was telling you that if you crossed the set of arbitrary rules he had constructed that allows him to internally justify his violent compulsions, then he was going to attack you. A variation on a wife beater telling his lady 'don't piss me off'.
Hunter S. Thompson crossed one of those unspoken lines while writing his book on the Hells Angels and received a brutal stomping.

I didn't take it that way. I was making a set of Indian 4 Chief heads for his chapters president. I think the guy was more fond of his bike than his pledge, and as there was no other source of them at the time, I believe the pledge would have been in life threatening danger if he interfered with getting the parts.

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫

@Remus2

He was telling you that he was mentally off plumb and prone to violence as his go to reaction to perceived insult. A once size fits all solution to negative interactions. The three turds in your original post were a prime example of this mindset.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Radagast

cracker on cracker

That's racist. The term is Saltine American ...

:)

Replies: Radagast richardshagrin

Radagast 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

In this thread I've used racial slurs for black, white & native Americans and sexist, derogatory term for women. Equal opportunity in insults.I'm currently goose stepping while singing "I like Chinese" to meet my balanced quota.

Replies: StarFleet Carl Mushroom

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Radagast

Equal opportunity in insults.

I do realize that sarcasm in written posts doesn't always come through appropriately. I do hope you know I was being that way.

There's two truly equal opportunity insulters available online now. Mel Brooks - especially with 'Blazing Saddles,' and George Carlin. Ah, the good old days, when nobody saw any problem with black people, because they thought everyone should own one.

:)

(SJW's go fuck yourself, I'm being SARCASTIC!)

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

Oh, I got it. I just wanted to work Godwin's Law & Monty Python into the thread.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Radagast

I just wanted to work Godwin's Law & Monty Python into the thread.

For what purpose?

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫
Updated:

@Remus2

Personal amusement and breaking the seriousness of the thread. As a callow youth I enjoyed wargaming / lawgaming / monday morning quarterbacking the use of lethal force. Now I am old and I find it distasteful, but necessary as more people go armed and the level of insanity in society keeps ratcheting up. I consider myself lucky that I never had to apply final pressure on a trigger. Its not a test of manhood or of skill, its a moment of desperation with perfect clarity. I can dehumanize the target by calling him a Goblin (or a target), but in the end John Donne was right:

No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

So some bleak humor fits my mindset.

Replies: Keet Remus2

Keet 🚫

@Radagast

but in the end John Donne was right:

No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

So some bleak humor fits my mindset.

John Donne was completely wrong. Without going into names or numbers, this world could do much better without a lot of individuals currently preventing a peaceful and healthy society.

Replies: awnlee jawking Radagast

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

Without going into names or numbers, this world could do much better without a lot of individuals currently preventing a peaceful and healthy society.

That is so Chinese!

AJ

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That is so Chinese!

AJ

No, it's world-wide.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

No, it's world-wide.

I was thinking specifically of the Chinese approach to the individuals currently upsetting the PLA's idea of a peaceful and healthy society by supporting democracy, Falun Gong, Islam etc.

AJ

Radagast 🚫

@Keet

I'm not a theist and I am a realist, yet I like to imagine that every person is capable of redemption.
Of course, most people bent on destruction don't desire redemption. They enjoy committing evil acts.

Replies: Keet Not_a_ID

Keet 🚫

@Radagast

I'm not a theist and I am a realist, yet I like to imagine that every person is capable of redemption.

Imagine yes, unfortunately it's not reality.

Of course, most people bent on destruction don't desire redemption. They enjoy committing evil acts.

That's mostly the individuals I was referring to.

Not_a_ID 🚫
Updated:

@Radagast

I'm not a theist and I am a realist, yet I like to imagine that every person is capable of redemption.

Of course, most people bent on destruction don't desire redemption. They enjoy committing evil acts.

While I would agree that every person is capable of redemption.

I find the probability of redemption to be an entirely different matter.

There also is the matter of cost/benefit of pursuing such a path. Sadly for some people, the probability is both low enough, as is the cost/benefit, that trying to pursue such a plan is dubious at best.

Remus2 🚫

@Radagast

Personal amusement and breaking the seriousness of the thread.

So you get your jollies from stirring shit. That's good to know.

Replies: Radagast

Radagast 🚫

@Remus2

Hardly. I think I've read the tone of posters well enough so my replies will be seen as reasonably entertaining as opposed to deliberately being a dick. I gave you my honest and somewhat informed opinion in answer to your query, in the hope that it would be of use to you. If you choose to be offended then thats totally on you. If you think I am deliberately being offensive, then you are mistaken.

Mushroom 🚫

@Radagast

I'm currently goose stepping while singing "I like Chinese" to meet my balanced quota.

I thought everybody likes Chinese.

They only come up to your knees, and are always friendly and are ready to please.

richardshagrin 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

cracker

I have heard of Georgia Crackers. Actually in North Florida they have Florida Crackers, too. Wikipedia has far more information about the term than anyone would want to know.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Remus2

many years ago I was in a similar situation with two local groups and I didn't want to have to spend hours in the station giving a witness statement, so before I left the shop I casually said, in a loud voice, "I suggest everyone check the outside environment before they leave." That made everyone look out the large plate-glass windows at the four parked bikes with three sitting on them in colours while a fourth in colours was headed to the shop next door. Two young ladies about to walk out went further back into the store to check shelves and the single guy with another group's colours turned and went to buy something else. The next time I was in that shop the owner who had been at the register that day thanked me for alerting everyone to the possible problem. Nothing came of it due to a couple of phone calls resulting in a couple of police cars stopping by to buy some food and drinks. It all went down rather low key as no one was confrontational once it became a three-way issue with the cops.

BTW: I had no connection with anyone involved except the shop owner who was an acquaintance. However, the shop was in an area both groups claimed and were regularly in.

In your case, I'd have suggested he look out first, then let the chips fall where they may.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

In your case, I'd have suggested he look out first, then let the chips fall where they may.

The guy was asking for a beating imo. I only know a bit of the culture from the peripheral angle having made some hard to get parts for a few of them. One in particular stuck out in my mind which is what put me on guard to begin with. The guy went into great lengths in telling me how much he enjoyed beating down posers.

I've since made it a rule to not accept work from any of them. The car guys usually don't get you visited by Feds asking "what those people wanted with me."

ystokes 🚫

@Remus2

I used to be with a actors group called The Wild Bunch of Hollywood and we mostly played biker roles and we wanted to put together a vest with top and bottom rockers but before we could do that we had to get permission from the local clubs.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Remus2

The moral questions are, should I have warned the poser, and should I have stepped in to stop the ass beating? To stop it, I would have had to pull my carry piece.

From a morals perspective ... if you're going to pose as something, you deserve whatever you get for doing so. He opened his mouth and from your statement, he swung first. He could have de-escalated the situation by riding away. You're a concerned citizen. You made sure law enforcement was notified.

At the same time, while you were witnessing a battery, you were not witnessing what, in your opinion, was a life threatening situation. Getting the shit kicked out of him was going to leave the poser bloody, bruised, and maybe with some broken bones, but not in a casket. If the Outlaw MC members had actually pulled knives, clubs, or tire irons and proceeded to pummel the moron, then you would have been justified in drawing on them. You can claim self-defense in that situation as you were protecting the lives of others, not just yourself.

Of course, at the same time, that would have also put you squarely in the sights of the Outlaw MC group as well. Something along the lines of shouting out, "Hey! You're beating the shit out of him, that's not cool but acceptable. You killing him isn't! Calm down, okay?" That's actually when making a citizen's arrest is acceptable, too.

At the same time, always be situationally aware.

Replies: Not_a_ID

Not_a_ID 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

That's actually when making a citizen's arrest is acceptable, too.

Very few states still have that on the books, and those that still do, are likely to remove them.

Funny thing about "citizen's arrest" as kind of played out with a recent trial is this.

Your right to self-defense does not end the moment someone uses those words.

If they identified as police, that would be another matter. But if they're not cops, you're legally allowed to defend yourself.

blackjack2145309 🚫

@Remus2

Just to put my own two cents in on the OP...

I don't think there's exactly a right or wrong answer here but consider this:

Now this is just because I'm an amateur writer and I have this condition where i literally examine situations and see out the most likely outcomes.

If you had pulled your weapon at any point after the bikers had started hitting the poser, I think reasonably you would be in a good position for legal self defense. The catch to that is more than likely the police would take your weapon even if you didn't discharge it.

The other part of the catch is that you can't predict if word would filter back to the rest of their club.

In other words if that colt were your only weapon in the scenario i described you'd be without a weapon and you may possibly have to start looking over your shoulder.

I should also clarify what i mean by "reasonably good position for self defense."

If i understand the law correctly, the key detail i should point out is the answer to the question of "did you at any point think the poser was in danger of eminent death?"

Looking at it from the view of a civilian non medical person, if the bikers had just kicked and punched the poser for let's say under 5 minutes and left then any self defense claim might prove shaky.

If the beating had gone on for 10 minutes or more and continued even after you got out there then any self defense claim would be reasonable i would think.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@blackjack2145309

If the beating had gone on for 10 minutes or more and continued even after you got out there then any self defense claim would be reasonable i would think.

My understanding is that in legal terms, it isn't self defense, it's justification. The reason being is that you can legally use lethal force to defend another, but that isn't self defense.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Remus2

should I have warned the poser, and should I have stepped in to stop the ass beating?

That would work contrary to evolution and weaken the human gene pool ;-)

AJ

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That would work contrary to evolution and weaken the human gene pool ;-)

The gene pool needed some clorox in regards to those three.

ystokes 🚫

@Remus2

Here is a moral question. According to most religions no matter how evil the act is that if you repent and ask forgiveness God will wipe away your sins.

The question is is where is the incentive to not do evil things if you can be forgiven?

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@ystokes

The question is is where is the incentive to not do evil things if you can be forgiven?

Organized religion has been selling fear of the after life punishment and in many cases, current life punishment since it's inception. "You're going to hell boy if you don't change your ways."
That can be broken down further to selling fear of might, and might makes right. Governments and religions alike push that one constantly.

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

@Remus2

Most religions have discovered this truth: if you don't allow repentance, you'll soon be out of people to fill the pews and pay the preacher.

For everything, there is a reason.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@irvmull

Most religions have discovered this truth: if you don't allow repentance, you'll soon be out of people to fill the pews and pay the preacher.

True

Ferrum1 🚫

@Remus2

Morally -- you're good.

You warned the "innocent" cashier and notified the police. Other than that, there was nothing you could do.

The poser knew what he was getting into because he got into it. Even before the confrontation, he wanted to be a billy badass.... and fights come with the territory. It'd be like saying you had some moral obligation to warn a drug dealer there was a rival dealer out on the street. Nope. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

As for tampering with your sidearm, that was a bad tactical move because Poser might have decided to take it from you since you so kindly let people know you had it. If you aren't 100% confident in your ability to draw from a retention holster, that's a sign you need to train more... not that you need to unclip it prior to a fight. The movement should be fluid, natural and entirely instinctual. Anything less means you aren't training enough.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫
Updated:

@Ferrum1

that's a sign you need to train more

No, it's a bow to reality. As fucked up as my hands are from multiple broken fingers and knuckles over time, I've sometimes been unable to release the safety on draw as smooth as you decribed. I agree with the thought though. It was not 'unclipped' as you call it at any time. It was dropping the safety off while it remained holstered. It never saw light the entire time.

After that incident, I've started carrying a G30 instead of the colt, so I no longer have to think about a safety like that. So far so good on that.

Mushroom 🚫

@Remus2

I know the local outlaw chapter types, they take great offense at the poser 1%ers and the "unaffiliated" rocker with the territory rocker (Tennessee). I was reasonably sure what was about to happen. What I wasn't sure of, was what the posers reaction would be if I tried to warn him. He could have just taken off the cut and avoided the ass beating.

Myself, I have a huge distaste for "bikers". And that is as a motorcycle rider for over 40 years.

I have had more than a few come up to me, and thankfully my "colors" always cause them to just nod and smile, as my jacket is decked out with my military patches and the only "biker club" I was ever a member of was the old "Military Motorcycle Club" from the 1980's.

But I always suggest to just stay away, and not get involved. I grew up in "Brother Speed" territory, and the fights in Nevada between the Mongols and Angels are legendary. As a general rule they will not bother a "civilian" at all. But get involved in their beef, and you have made yourself fair game.

And in a "stomping", it is not unusual for other members to act as "backup", and rush in if something happens like a bystander getting involved.

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Forum: Story Ideas

moral question of a sort.

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