Forum: Story Ideas

The Pentagon had not yet been built.

(Side Note: the Engineer who built the Pentagon quickly and efficiently, he was made a General, and put in charge of the Manhattan Project: to build the first Atomic Bombs.

He was flexible enough that he permitted several different designs to go forward simultaneously. Normally it would be best to focus on just one design "the best" if that could be determined ahead of time.

Thus the Anglo-American project developed both a plutonium and a uranium bomb(s) "Fat Man" and "Little Boy")

One of the biggest problems was that FDR decided to send the description machine Planned to go to Pearl Harbor, to the Philippines so that Field Marshall MacArthur, chief advisor of the Philippine Army could be kept updated.

However, Admiral Kimmel and General Short, were not privy in a timely manner.

Had they been told that US Naval Intelligence had lost track of the Kido Butai (6 Japanese Fleet Carriers) last seen off of northern Japan (aka North Pacific Ocean); Kimmel and Short would likely been more prepared for an Aerial attack.

The Japanese Naval Aviators believed that US. Forces, other than aircraft, were Prepared for the Japanese attack. Anti-Aircraft fire was quick and heavy in their opinions. Nearly all were veterans of the air war over Cjina, and some had fought the Soviet (Russian) Red Army near the Chinese-Mongolian border in 1939.

General Short was cautioned to defend the aircraft of the US Army Air Corps from attacks by 5th columnists (which had happened in China, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, and elsewhere).

If prompted by Navy Dept. that it would be okay to use fuel to search for the Japanese Carriers; PBY "Catalina" long range search planes would have been in the air (even if they weren't far enough to find the Japanese Carriers), they would not have been sitting ducks on the ground.

Some would have probably been forward based on Midway Island (the Japanese conducted a small air raid on Midway on the way back from Pearl Harbor).

Aircraft would have been dispersed to outlying airfields; those on the main airbases, many would have been in revetments. (Historically they were parked close together so the fewest number of soldiers and airmen could guard them. Guard Duty interfered with the accelerated Training regime the US had imposed in 1941.)

Due to a shortage of trained personnel the Radar sites and Air Defense Coordination Center shutdown about 0700 (7:00 AM), despite reports from 1 Radar site that spotted the Japanese aircraft.

Submarines (with their badly flawed torpedo detonaters) would have had more out on patrol.

The warships would have likely been in Pearl Harbor, but many more of their watertight compartments secure. More officers aboard. Higher state of readiness.

A likely course of action is that the Radar spots the incoming first wave of Japanese aircraft. The Air Defense Coordination Center is able to give most US forces 15 to 30 minutes warning.

The US fighter planes are starting to get up to altitude and organizing when the Japanese Mitsubishi AMN1 "Zero" fighters tear through them like a buzzsaw!

However, the Japanese realize the Americans are prepared, so, the dive bombers go in first. The Torpedo planes are held back (some carrying bombs/modified 15" naval shells).

Some US fighters disrupt the Japanese bombers. Smoke, attacking fighters, and chaos significantly reduces the successes of the Japanese torpedo bombers.

More Japanese aircraft are shutdown than Historical, and more are damaged.

The Japanese Admiral cancels the second wave, but does close in to recover more damaged aircraft (to save the valuable pilots and aircrew).

The US Army Air Corps does manage to get a gaggle of various bombers and a very few fighters with sufficient range (at least one way). Nearly identical to what the aircraft based at Midway Island in June 1942 did, they are slaughtered with minimal results!

Perhaps a US Submarine gets off a couple torpedoes, all but one miss or are duds
1 slightly damages a Japanese carrier (reduced to 25 or 28 knots). Does the Japanese Admiral slow down the entire task force, or just detach a cruiser or two and a couple of destroyers to escort the slightly damaged Carrier?

USS Enterprise CV6 in this version doesn't have to guess, and goes the correct direction after the Japanese. Similar to Coral Sea, Air Group 6 does minimal damage, maybe a bomb jams an elevator. Air Group 6 is mauled, and Enterprise damaged, luckily escaping into the darkness.

Arizona still likely blows up. Oklahoma, though severely damaged by a couple torpedoes, her watertight compartments weren't open, so she doesn't capsize. Several other Battleships are severely damaged, requiring months, perhaps a year to repair.

Far fewer aircraft are destroyed on the ground. However, many more are shot out of the air! Losses amongst pilots and aircrew are significantly higher. (Some are rescued by PBY).

Losses of US ships and aircraft are a bit less, but losses of pilots and aircrew are higher. CV6 Enterprise is damaged, with high loss of aircraft pilots and aircrew.

Japanese losses of aircraft and pilots are 3x higher, and 2 Carriers slightly damaged. However, they inflict less damage, and are Less certain of the damage they inflicted (no 2nd wave, that included several photo recon aircraft).

25 days after December 7th the Kido Butai was supporting Japanese invasions of Bruni, the Philippines, and Malaysia. Losses will restrict how many operations can be supported by Japanese Naval Aviation. Japanese confidence may be shaken too.

The Japanese accomplished a Lot with very few forces in the western Pacific. Often beating the Allies by a week or even a few days. The Aviators of the Kido Butai were the best, and slaughtered Allied Aviators.

The increase of Japanese losses at this alternative Pearl Harbor could have huge cumulative ripples.

Less devastating attack on Pearl Harbor, perhaps Hitler does NOT declare war on the USA! So, the USA focuses on Japan first instead.

Britain has survived the Battle of Britain. I don't think the Germans commit any additional forces to North Africa. But without the Torch (USA) landings in North Africa, it would take a lot longer for the British to drive the Italians and Germans out. Invading Italy is out of the question.

With much less Anglo-American lend lease to the USSR, that conflict goes on longer. Many possibilities. Perhaps both Hitler and Stalin are assassinated, or die of sickness. I could see a ceasefire/cold war. Germans holding Ukraine and Baltic States. Both sides building for an inevitable war in the 1960's or 70's.

USA, UK, Canada, Australia, tired from having to invade Japan before an Atomic Bomb is ready, sick of Millions of casualties. Japan, nearly depopulated, a howling wilderness, occupied by the above 4.

Europe under German domination, "Tutonic efficiency" a bitter joke, National Socialist Bureaucracies only better in comparison to the rump of the USSR. No rebuilding of Europe. The British Empire creaks on, neither devastated by the Japanese Empire, nor bled out and impoverished on the continent of Europe. India still part of the British Empire. Britain snarfs up the French, Dutch and other European colonies.

War weary and Isolationist USA (+Canada, Australia, NZ).

Corroding British Empire; Communism failed, perhaps French Revolutionary ideals (of the 1848/1870's, etc.) exported by French and other exiles, kicked out of Europe by the Fascist "confederacy"

Grossdeutschland (greater Germany, Italy, Hungary, Vichy France, Franco's Spain, Romania, etc.

Russia/rump Soviets, possibly just reverting to Russian nationalists.

China led by the Nationalists, after decades of long war against Mao and his declining followers, due to loss of support from the collapse of the USSR.

A poorer, less advanced, balkanized world.

Just some thoughts.

The Pentagon had not yet been built.

I'd forgot that, but the idiots in charge were still around and could've acted on any of the information that had been provided to them by the Aussie and British intelligence people over the several weeks before hand.

Or writing a story where the idiots in the Pentagon actually take notice and act on the intelligence reports they were sent by the UK and Australian intelligence services warning them of the attack on Pearl Harbor from early November on would be an interesting twist on how they would've changed the situation.

Actually, there was no intelligence that they were going to attack Hawaii. The US knew for months that war was coming, but expected the attack to be aimed at the Philippines. That is why they were working overtime to try and reinforce the islands. A Marine Regiment had been moved there from China, along with the US China Fleet.

And the USS Langley had just been transferred to that fleet a few months before (with a full deck of fighters). The USS Lexington was ferrying fighters to Midway on that morning. The USS Enterprise was returning from Wake, having ferried fighters to that base.

There was really no intelligence to leak, as Japan kept that very close. Not even decoding would help, as they treated that operation as so secret that all communications were hand delivered only.

Same thing with "signals interception". There was simply nothing to intercept prior to the "14 part message". And that actually was intercepted and decoded prior to the attack. But nothing in it said a thing about Hawaii, and it was believed the only target of note for the US was the Philippines.

Even the attack was held in radio silence. Only a single message sent from the pilots to the fleet saying they had achieved surprise, and another from the fleet to Japan with a single word stating the attack was a success. Japan did a masterful job of coordinating multiple attacks, all to be done in complete radio silence.

And in fact, the Army was sending a message to both Hawaii and the Philippines one it realized that the 14 part message was a declaration of war (that was the second part, received early on the 7th). The time the warning was coded, and sent by telegraph to the West coast for transmission. But before it could be sent from California, the attacks started.

Most of this was not revealed until the late 1980s, when MAGIC was finally declassified.

Japan did a masterful job of coordinating multiple attacks, all to be done in complete radio silence.

They made a tremendously serious flaw in executing them, though. Somebody forgot to drop bombs on our tank farms. That little bit of logistics - destroying the local fuel supply - would have made one hell of a difference in the US ability to respond - definitely would have affected the Battle of Midway, at the very least. Nagumo fucked up.

They made a tremendously serious flaw in executing them, though. Somebody forgot to drop bombs on our tank farms.

That was actually planned for the third wave.

But Nagumo felt that the first two waves did enough damage, with no major losses. So he decided to cut his risk and head home. They accomplished their main objectives, and it was actually a strategically sound decision. As a third wave would have gone in to more serious defensive fire and at least some aircraft defenders. Which might have tried to follow them back, giving away the position of their carriers and allowing other US forces in the area to be called in against them on their return.

That was actually planned for the third wave.

That's actually something Fuchida created to cover things in the interviews after the war. Prange went with it, but later actual studies show there were only two waves originally planned, and thus, the pilots were pushing FOR the third wave. Nagumo also was a cruiser admiral, not a carrier admiral, so his decision at Pearl to bail and not take the time to rearm - while turning around later and doing exactly that at Midway - is why he wasn't the best person to be in charge of their carriers from the Japanese perspective.

They did that as a movie, then brought the Nimitz and her aircraft back before they could intervene.

There was a series of dead tree books that was discussed recently where the ships showed up during preparations for the Battle of Midway.

The first is "The Final Countdown", which is actually on the free Tubi streaming service right now.

The second is known as the "Axis of Time" series, by John Birmingham. But it should also be realized, that Mr. Birmingham is more than just a bit "to the Right" politically. A lot of things he talked about like that was actually his being tongue in cheek and snarky.

Such as having the main computer AI for the main UK ship sound like "Lady Victoria Beckham", and being known as "Posh" among the sailors.