Forum: Story Ideas

An intellectual exercise 4/19/20

blackjack2145309 🚫

I have a question that I'd like an answer to by someone more experienced in legal stuff than i am.

Okay, let's say you have an innocent bystander who was entangled in a criminal organization come in and surrender themselves to the District Attorney/Police with a lawyer present.

Let me ask what are the general rules at this point should the district attorney/police want to try to turn this innocent bystander into an informant and send them back into the criminal organization the innocent bystander got disentangled from?

Replies: Dominions Son StarFleet Carl

Dominions Son 🚫

@blackjack2145309

About the only universal rule, across the US, would be that if they want the informant to go back in wearing a wire, they need a warrant.

Beyond that, rules will vary from one jurisdiction to another.

Reluctant_Sir 🚫
Updated:

Don't understand the question.

Do you mean "Under what circumstances would the DA/Police want the person to turn informant or do the undercover bit?"

Or do you mean, "The person WILL go undercover, but what are the rules the DA/Cops have to follow for things like this?"

Or maybe even, "What rules of conduct should the DA/Cops set up to guide the informant's behavior when they do go back in as a mole/rat in the organization?"

All are different things and all depend on jurisdiction, the guidance of the DA/Judge, the laws being broken, the work the UC will do and what laws, if any, he or she may have to break to keep their cover intact, what coverage the person will have or will the police provide, what funding is in place to pay for these things, what happens afterwards and what guarantees the legal system in that municipality/county/state or federal district will provide, in writing and so on...

HOLY RUN-ON SENTENCES, BATMAN!

I guess I am just saying we would need more info.

Replies: blackjack2145309

blackjack2145309 🚫

@Reluctant_Sir

It's more of a "what are the rules the DA/Cops have to follow for things like this?"

To try to explain a little better, i'm thinking about writing a situation where the innocent who got disentangled from a criminal organization but the DA/Cops in their zeal to take down the organization want to send the innocent back into the organization to get more information.

After the main character hears about what's happening he rides in to separate the innocent from the cops in a way that is kind of like one of those fast and furious movies and get her to the local consulate.

Replies: Dominions Son Reluctant_Sir

Dominions Son 🚫

@blackjack2145309

It's more of a "what are the rules the DA/Cops have to follow for things like this?"

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that, for the US, outside of 4th amendment rules that would affect the admissibility of any evidence obtained by the informant, there are basically no rules at all.

There are certainly no other rules for the DA.

As to cops, some PDs have policy based rules on the use of informants, but those are department specific.

Reluctant_Sir 🚫

@blackjack2145309

It's more of a "what are the rules the DA/Cops have to follow for things like this?"

I am not a lawyer. I don't play one on television either, so I don't want you to think I am speaking from a vast well of real-life experience or anything :)

Having said that, below is what I think.

There is no playbook that tells the cops what they can and can't do, beyond common sense, case law and the legal principles that govern us as a whole.

The cops can coerce, intimidate, even threaten but don't have any real power or authority to actually make anything happen, legally speaking. They are strictly enforcement; they can only act to apprehend and hold after the fact.

The District Attorney can take part in the above coercion but, legally again, he or she cannot actually force a person into that role.

No defense lawyer worth the paper their degree is printed on would suggest it was a good idea except in the most egregious of circumstances (You are going to prison for life, but they will ask the judge for leniency and to withhold the death penalty if you do X)

If, despite all of that, the cops, DA, defense, and the accused all decide it is a good idea, then the only rules are those that would govern the collection of evidence, along with what can and cannot be done in the name of the agency empowering the informer to act on their behalf.

If you want plausibility, get the governor involved. Much like that outgoing governor a few months ago, he/she can offer pardons for a lot of crap.

Zellus 🚫

Not a legal expert, but they would most likely turn that person away, unless they (police) know that they can trust the informer and the information received, and that the info in has high value - the informer manages to infiltrate for example; the leadership of the gang.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Zellus

and that the info in has high value - the informer manages to infiltrate for example; the leadership of the gang.

I have to disagree with this part. They can always use evidence from a low level informant to try and turn someone higher up in the organization.

This is how investigations into organized crime tend to go, particularly in drug cases.

Bust a user, get them to flip on their dealer. Get the dealer to flip on his suppliers. And so on until they get to the top of the organization.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@blackjack2145309

let's say you have an innocent bystander who was entangled in a criminal organization come in and surrender themselves to the District Attorney/Police with a lawyer present.

Let me ask what are the general rules at this point should the district attorney/police want to try to turn this innocent bystander into an informant and send them back into the criminal organization the innocent bystander got disentangled from?

Let's put some names here. Jane Doe is an innocent woman who is dating a man, and finds out after she's been dating him that he happens to be notorious crime boss Bill Jefferson. She goes to her attorney, Perry Mason, to get his advice.

In order to keep her name clear, Mason has her meet with DA Hamilton Burger and Police Captain Joe Friday.

Doe is there to simply tell them, hey, I found out that Jefferson is a crook, I'm innocent, and I'm out of town. Burger and Friday can threaten her, can ask her politely, and will do everything they can to convince her to go back and wear a wire to gain incriminating evidence on Jefferson.

The problem is simple. Mason tells them to go fly a kite. His client has come in, of her own volition, volunteered the information that Jefferson is a bad dude, and that she was NOT involved in anything. They have no leverage over her to force her to do anything.

That's where your idea is has an issue. There's nothing they can do at all to turn her into an informant, other than MAYBE appeal to her civic pride and maybe promise her a reward that's commensurate with the risk. She hasn't done anything. Simply associating with someone who is a criminal does not automatically make you a suspect or a criminal yourself.

(I have a Masters Degree in Criminology, although it's been 35 years since I earned it, is what I'm basing this on.)

Replies: blackjack2145309

blackjack2145309 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

Thanks Carl, that actually is a enlightening answer. With only watching various cop dramas to go by, the specifics of things like this i've always been unclear on. Actually this information gives me a few ideas how to write the next pages of the story i'm writing.

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Forum: Story Ideas

An intellectual exercise 4/19/20

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