I have had MANY negative comments on my departure from the "normal" 3 genie wishes in my story 'My Very Own Jeannie'.
Are we really stuck on preconceived make believe notions ??
Nowhere in the TV series did the astronaut EVER get limited to just 3 wishes.
I get it. You EXPECT a cookie cutter story that glides along a path you already expected.
Nope. Not this time.
Just give it a chance and see where it goes and how it works out.
You may be pleasantly surprised.
I have had MANY negative comments on my departure from the "normal" 3 genie wishes in my story 'My Very Own Jeannie'.
Very few of the genie stories on SOL follow the 3 wishes thing.
[shakes head] some people...
Are we really stuck on preconceived make believe notions ??
A number of people are.
There has been numerous post on this forum and in stories where people complain excessively and incessantly about such things.
The ones that make the least sense are the ones that complain about 'reality' when the subject of the story is supernatural.
It's the nature of fictional stories for them to be..."fictional."
The people complaining really need to drink a bit more or smoke a bigger blunt if they can't comprehend that.
My $.02 worth on it.
The people complaining really need to drink a bit more or smoke a bigger blunt if they can't comprehend that.
Either that or they've already drunk/smoked too much. :)
Nowhere in the TV series did the astronaut EVER get limited to just 3 wishes.
If the TV series had instead been a film there might well have only been three wishes. As a series viewers expect some "magic" in every episode, so holding to the three wishes concept would lose viewers pretty quickly.
Also we humans have a thing about "three". Many jokes involve three people, three wise men, father son & spirit, mΓ©nage a trois. Third time lucky, etc.
As for the complaints, you are lucky that most such idiots never consider that for the rule about no wish undoing a previous wish granted, every genie has to be in contact with every other genie in real time and be aware of every wish ever granted.
As for the complaints, you are lucky that most such idiots never consider that for the rule about no wish undoing a previous wish granted, every genie has to be in contact with every other genie in real time and be aware of every wish ever granted.
Not really. A central authority over the djinn that keeps track of wishes granted and approves new wishes would be sufficient.
We are dealing with the supernatural anyway, so the central authority blocking wishes that violate what ever rules in real time is not a problem.
Not really. A central authority over the djinn that keeps track of wishes granted and approves new wishes would be sufficient.
There is no way that genies would accept such a central authority, what is more how dare anybody suggest that a wish requires approval prior to being granted.
Djin will never bow to a major genieral. Nor genies to a minor djineral.
Badges!! We don't need no stinking badges..!!
There is no way that genies would accept such a central authority
Oh, really? Then who or what trapped all those djinn in lamps, bottles and other vessels?
From what I've read on the pre-Islamic Arab mythology around djinn, the djinn were believed to have their own society that had a highly feudal structure, the djinn had their own sultans.
Oh, really? Then who or what trapped all those djinn in lamps, bottles and other vessels?
Being trapped does not require the trapped to accept the authority of the trapper.
From what I've read on the pre-Islamic Arab mythology around djinn, the djinn were believed to have their own society that had a highly feudal structure, the djinn had their own sultans.
Sultans, plural. Not one central authority and certainly no mention of wishes needing to be approved prior to being granted.
Honestly, i think the best way to handle people with preconceived notions is to give your story a good twist with something you rarely see in djinn stories.
Personally I think i've read genie stories that goes both ends of the spectrum between 3 and infinite wishes.
What honestly interests me more when it comes to genie stories are ones that say "f*ck it" against the grain.
I mean honestly when you read the twentieth or thirtieth genie story that turns into a cycle of altering the proverbial "grand design" without consequence it gets boring.
Take for example auguy's "An unforgettable melody" now that's a genie story that embodies what i've been saying here.
Though if i also may relay an idea i just had while writing this....
What if someone who has already had multiple encounters with the supernatural receives a genie (for whatever reason).
And when she materializes in the (insert details of skimpy outfit here) and says "greetings master" and instead of the story going how you'd think it would go he says "dammit cover yourself" before he tosses a blanket on her.
When she covers up, he says "dammit if i find out who sent her to me i'm going to kill'em"
The reason being that he's read enough genie stories to suspect that some well meaning fool sent him the equivalent of a paranormal tactical nuke.
And this is where the world drops on the poor guy's head. Though i'm not sure whether or not it will be figurative or literal.
I mean honestly when you read the twentieth or thirtieth genie story that turns into a cycle of altering the proverbial "grand design" without consequence it gets boring.
There are several stories on SOL by a couple of different authors with "sex genies"
The genie has more mundane powers that can be used for camouflage and/or household maintenance, but wishes have to have something to do with sex and can't alter the "grand design"
There's another where the wishes are less limited, but they are fueled by energy gathered from sex. The bigger the wish, the more power that has to be gathered ahead of time.
Yea i mean, really memorable genie stories seem a bit far an in between, but the story "an unforgettable melody" is one of the better ones i've read.
The reason being that he's read enough genie stories to suspect that some well meaning fool sent him the equivalent of a paranormal tactical nuke.
And this is where the world drops on the poor guy's head. Though i'm not sure whether or not it will be figurative or literal.
Oh. Oh! Oh, yeah!! I would so read that story. Lot of worldbuilding would need to be done before writing the first word. At least, that's the way it seems to me. But, so much fun!
Yea you're right a fair amount of world building would be required because this is the way i see it...
Anyone in the "magical know" about genies they are going to want one just for the fact that they can grant wishes and go against reality (hence my description of genies being the equivalent of paranormal tactical nukes)
The dilemma here is that the MC realizes that anyone in the "magical know" about genies will probably offer god knows what to obtain one, but if he gets separated from the genie it's likely going to lead to his death because like i said in this universe a genie is like having the paranormal equivalent of a tactical nuke.
Because if you think about it anyone who obtains a genie from a third party isn't going to want that third party to go blabbing the information about who has the genie....
Also if you think about it, you have to think that someone higher up in the genie hierarchy would step in and say "play nice or i'm taking your genie away from you" at some point.
The dilemma here is that the MC realizes that anyone in the "magical know" about genies will probably offer god knows what to obtain one, but if he gets separated from the genie it's likely going to lead to his death because like i said in this universe a genie is like having the paranormal equivalent of a tactical nuke.
The issues surrounding genies in fiction tend to be surrounded by the three wish concept. Then there is the premise that only 'genies' can grant wishes or perform magic. There are plenty of other mythological creatures that can perform magic sans the three wishes trope.
I think Blue Fairys would wear Levi 501s. They did in the '80s. Which reminded me of this little gem:
https://storiesonline.net/s/51799/the-life-cycle-of-the-lesser-blue-fairy
Other ways to mess with the 3 wish limit people insist on:
1) Genie, can I wish for more wishes? No, three wishes is all you get. Then my first wish is I wish you had no idea how to count and would never have the thought that any wish I make was my third wish.
2) Genie, can I wish for more wishes? No, three wishes is all you get. Then my first wish is I wish for you to believe that every single future wish I make is only my second wish.
It doesn't have to be a genie, any of the mythological creatures can net the same results.
I'm posting a story that started with a good score, but by chapter 2 was apparently getting one bombed with no explanation at all.
The feedback has been almost universally positive yet the score continues to tank.
It definitely doesn't abide by norms.
So the question becomes to post or not. That's all the choice we have.
I'll finish it even if it's just one person with positive feedback.
It would help if the low scorers were required to explain the score. As it is, I don't think they are bothering to read it.
Remus brings up several good points.
It's like i said before if you're going to write a genie story you got to add an interesting twist to it.
Because frankly i think anyone who reads sex stories and/or sexy stories about genies would probably think something like this...
Okay this story is about a normal Joe who gets a genie and makes an inordinate amount of reality bending wishes....
woo-hoo (with a very kuudere voice)
it's like i said before, i believe anyone reading this thread could probably name 30-40 genie stories like the way I just described.
In essence i believe sexy genie stories like i've described have been "done to death" to the point of the whole subject being needed to put into hospice care.
Frankly i believe stories like "an unforgettable melody" is a more interesting type of genie story because of the unique twists involved.
Actually what i said before about the main character treating his genie like a tactical nuke instead of the usual way a genie story would go i might go ahead and flesh out that idea (pardon the pun)
To me a story like that would be worthy of a deadpool cameo :P
sexy genie stories
The plural (from Latin) for genius might be genii (US becomes i). That isn't true for the United States as a US in plural probably is USA. I am not sure if genie is a plural or singular noun.
History and Etymology for genie
French gΓ©nie, from Arabic jinnΔ«
Not sure if gin will solve your problems. i.e. stands for "id est" (more Latin) that is. Genie might be that is gin.
The plural (from Latin) for genius might be genii
The Genii were far from geniuses, ignoring the danger from radiation while trying to build a nuclear bomb to use against the Wraith (Stargate Atlantis).
AJ
Actually what i said before about the main character treating his genie like a tactical nuke instead of the usual way a genie story would go i might go ahead and flesh out that idea (pardon the pun)
I'd like to read that one if you do.
I have had MANY negative comments on my departure from the "normal" 3 genie wishes in my story 'My Very Own Jeannie'.
Actually, that is a very recent variant. In the original Aladdin story, there were an unlimited number of wishes.
And while people screamed that the latest live action film was "white washed", most do not even seem to realize that in the original story, he was Chinese.
Of course, today we live in an age where almost none ever read the "source material", and get all of their understanding from a movie version.
And while people screamed that the latest live action film was "white washed", most do not even seem to realize that in the original story, he was Chinese.
My understanding is that the original Aladin story is part of the One Thousand and One Nights. These stories are pre-Islamic Aribic mythology. It makes little sense that the original Aladin character would have been Chinese.
Can you provide a cite to support this claim?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aladdin
That was most likely the source. It's poorly quoted, but there is a touch of fire among the smoke.
That was most likely the source. It's poorly quoted, but there is a touch of fire among the smoke.
Or perhaps not.
The opening sentences of the story, in both the Galland and the Burton versions, set it in "one of the cities of China".[12] On the other hand, there is practically nothing in the rest of the story that is inconsistent with a Middle Eastern setting. For instance, the ruler is referred to as "Sultan" rather than "Emperor", as in some retellings, and the people in the story are Muslims and their conversation is filled with Muslim platitudes. A Jewish merchant buys Aladdin's wares, but there is no mention of Buddhists, Daoists or Confucians.
For all this, speculation about a "real" Chinese setting depends on a knowledge of China that the teller of a folk tale (as opposed to a geographic expert) might well not possess.[14] In early Arabic usage, China is known to have been used in an abstract sense to designate an exotic, faraway land.[15][16]
Never said it was well sourced. You asked for a quote.
Like most things, a search is your friend.
The opening sentences of the story, in both the Galland and the Burton versions, set it in "one of the cities of China".[12] On the other hand, there is practically nothing in the rest of the story that is inconsistent with a Middle Eastern setting. For instance, the ruler is referred to as "Sultan" rather than "Emperor", as in some retellings, and the people in the story are Muslims and their conversation is filled with Muslim platitudes. A Jewish merchant buys Aladdin's wares, but there is no mention of Buddhists, Daoists or Confucians.
And that was typical of the era.
It must be realized that this is the equivalent of "Oral History". Where the narrator would make their own changes for various reasons. It might be a case like "broken telephone", and the one they got it from had changed it, or they might have changed it to make it more understandable for their audience.
Hell, read the Bible and it is full of such things. Like how most major things happen in groups of 7 or 40 periods of time.
Now I know that Aladdin and Ali Babba were not original but added in later years to the 1,001 stories. However, they do come from a Syrian named Hanna Diyab, who like the Brothers Grimm chronicled a great many folktales. Even adapting stories from Europe into a more familiar Middle Eastern setting for his readers.
One thing interesting about folktales, even as they transition during retelling the setting almost never changes unless it is to bring it to the local area of the reader-teller. In other words, a French tale may change to be set in England for an English audience. But in England itself, a tale will almost never be changed to show it was set in France.
This is known as "Morphology", and those who study folktales can track that through generations of the story being told. That is why there are recognized as being at least 345 "variants" of the Cinderella story.
This is where for those that study it, the ATU number becomes important. As a great many tales all have a common ancient ancestor that is lost. But their descendants still show the older origins.
Case in point, the "Uncle Remus" stories. Those were actual slave folktales, most of them brought from Africa. But changed, to fit their more modern American home. People can read them now and they seem American, but they actually came to us from Africa.
In fact, to get an idea how deep this can go, consider mythology. Africa, Norse, American Indian, all have powerful Gods that are brothers. And they are basically "Frenemies", where one is good and powerful, the other is a "Trickster". As often in the tales working with each other as working against each other.
I am sure most know of Thor and Loki, even if they have never picked up Bullfinch and only know of them from the movies or comics. But then when you read the exploits of Wolf and Coyote in almost all American Indian mythology, the stories are almost exactly the same. And the same is found in Africa, and almost every mythology in the world.
I believe like a great many others that what is seen there is the roots of a very ancient "source", that is probably tens of thousands of years old. And simply changed as humans migrated around the planet. Whatever the original "trickster god" was, in Africa became a rabbit or spider. In the Americas it became a Coyote. In the European myths, the brother or son of the "head god".
Or in some, just a human. Like Maui, who in Polynesian tradition is not a god at all, but a human that played tricks on gods.
But in short, a great many who study folktales believe the story probably originated in India or China, then traveled to the Middle East by traders. Who then made changes until it was finally recorded. But no matter the origin, the story as earliest recorded was indeed set in China.
Just as Hans Christian Anderson's tale "The Nightingale" (1843) was set in China.
Can you provide a cite to support this claim?
Sure, how about the opening lines?
THE STORY OF ALADDIN; OR, THE WONDERFUL LAMP
In the capital of one of the large and rich provinces of the kingdom of China there lived a tailor, named Mustapha, who was so poor that he could hardly, by his daily labour, maintain himself and his family, which consisted of a wife and son.
And it must be remembered, 1,001 is just a compilation of even older stories, assembled with a framing device that was written much later. Not unlike the Brothers Grimm.
And Arabia had extensive trade with China. The Silk Road dates to before 200 BCE, and the closest we know of the 1,001 nights as a single "document" date to over 1,200 years later. And we also know that many of the stories originated in India, and are also pre-Islamic in source.
It is not like those in the Middle East did not know about China. Almost all of the silk seen in Europe and the Middle East came through Arab traders. It is often forgotten that Sinbad was a trader.
As I said, it is amazing when one reads the source documents.
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/20916/pg20916.txt
Sure, how about the opening lines?
That might be persuasive, if not for:
1. All the characters with titles use Arabic/Muslim titles (Sultan, Vizier...)
2. They all use Muslim platitudes and sayings.
3. While there are one or two Jewish characters mentioned, there are no Buddhists, Daoists or Confucians.
As you say, Arabia had extensive trade with China, so it is unlikely that the original author did not know anything about Chinese religions or sayings.
You are correct that they opening line mentions China as the setting, but literally everything else in/about the story contradicts that.
It is as if the author used "China" as a shortcut for "a far away land".
It is as if the author used "China" as a shortcut for "a far away land".
And I once again refer back to the Uncle Remus stories.
Almost every single one of those stories has roots deep in African folklore. In Africa, the "Tar Baby" was covered in tree gum. And while a common character that in the original African folktales worked against was indeed a Fox, there was no Bear in them as that animal is not native to Africa. That was an addition to the American variants.
You are confusing the way it was recorded later, with the older oral tradition.
As I said, the Bible is full of such, as it also was oral tradition tor thousands of years before being recorded. And those who study oral traditions can spot these very easily. Like as I said, how often 7 and 40 pops up over and over again.
The flood was for 40 days. Abraham could save Sodom and Gomorrah if 40 righteous people were found. Moses lived for 40 years in Egypt. Then spent 40 days on the mountain waiting for the laws from God. The Children of Israel wandered the desert for 40 years. Jonah warned of destruction for 40 days. Elijah fasted for 40 days.
That is simply common among oral traditions. Over time and distance, they change.
It is as if the author used "China" as a shortcut for "a far away land".
Or started out with 'A Long Time Ago, in a Galaxy Far, Far Away' ... basically equivalent to once upon a time, in a land far away.
Latvian folklore use "VΔczeme" = German-land ~> Germany as shortcut for "far lands overseas" in stories that may predate Germany as a political entity.
Either a word vΔci originally probably basically meaning "foreigners" had been pigeonholed as a locally used name for the specific nation&country in the process of the crusade against us in the early thirteen century and subsequent feudal occupation by mostly germanic Christian knights, or that's how those specific foes were called back then and the unspecified land of origin of said invaders gradually condensed to Germany along with that political entity's consolidation, but in either case the term is fuzzy and bears little actual direct correspondence to modern day Germany.
So it wouldn't surprise me if that "China" was used similarly, as "a land far far away". Although the subsequent localization of every other detail -- scrubbing all exotic names, places, titles, religious references etc that could confuse or distract the audience -- is actually equally plausible. Either on this or the other sites forums I have seen people complaining that they may drop a story if they don't know how or can't pronounce important character's names. Mentioning religious traditions unfamiliar to the reader/listener could likewise be seen just an unnecessary complication if the story can be told avoiding such explanations.
The crucial evidence to determine this debate would be a proof that conceptually similar story likely circulated independently in said region, in China or around, at or rather significantly before the time the middle east version was recorded.
The crucial evidence to determine this debate would be a proof that conceptually similar story likely circulated independently in said region, in China or around, at or rather significantly before the time the middle east version was recorded.
That would require translation. There are many such stories out of China, but a definitive example will always be questionable due to translation questions.
It is as if the author used "China" as a shortcut for "a far away land".
It does, doesn't it?
It's a story. There aren't any Genies, Djinn, etc.
(Not even Barbara Eden. I know most people will be
shocked to learn that. All that "magic" was just TV special effects.)
Anyone who complains about a 1,000 year old story being geographically, racially, factually or politically incorrect is just proving he's too stupid, mis-educated and unimaginative to be allowed to read fiction.
Those people might find Housewives of Atlanta or the WWF Superstars of Wrestling more to their taste for completely accurate, unbiased, and thoroughly-researched entertainment.
in the original story, he was Chinese.
At the time the original story was written, China wasn't known as China and thus its inhabitants were not referred to as Chinese.
ZhΕngguΓ³ was their name for themselves.
The name China was given them by the Portuguese ~16th century or so.
It was derived from the state of Qin during the Zhou dynasty.
Any research into the story that references 'China' is by default flawed as a result.
Unless I am misunderstanding you (very possible) there is a flaw in the last sentence.
If I wanted to visit where J.R.R. Tolkien grew up I would have to go to South Africa. All the quick references (Wiki isfdb) say he was NOT born there. Would that make any of the information I found there "flawed" [For clarity he was born in the Orange Free State - which is now part of South Africa]
I would agree that the probability of the Aladdin stories are from China (or ZhΕngguΓ³) is remote. But there seems to be a mistrust of any translations. This I have not heard of before. Would any modern work that references Beijing in the 1800s be flawed because we knew it as Peking? or calling Edo Tokyo?
Please understand this IS NOT meant to be antagonistic. I am an indifferent scholar in many subjects but some thing catch my attention and then I learn more until . . . oh shiny! Now where was I?
limab
Would any modern work that references Beijing in the 1800s be flawed because we knew it as Peking? or calling Edo Tokyo?
Edo vs Tokyo would definitely be a flaw for a historical work because this is an actual official name change.
I'm less certain about Peking vs Beijing. I've read some conflicting information on this and I don't know which is correct. One version is that the CCP actually changed the name of the city, but I've also read claims that the name in Chinese didn't change and it's just a change in the official transliteration to English.
a change in the official transliteration to English
Or willfully misnamed, as the British Empire was wont to do.
AJ
Edo vs Tokyo would definitely be a flaw for a historical work because this is an actual official name change.
Istanbul was Constantinople, now it's Istanbul not Constantinople. Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobodies business but the Turks.
And to make things even more confusing, it was also known as "Byzantium" at the same time it was Constantinople.
Lygos circa 13-11th cen bc
Byzantion, latinized to Byzantium, refounded by Megaran Greeks 667 BC, also used by western historians, introduced by Hieromynus Wolf in 1555, centuries after the fall of the eastern empire.
Augusta Antonina, briefly conferred in early 3rd cen, by Emperor Septimus Severus in honor of his son.
New Rome, by Constantine, May 30, 330 AD, undertaking to rebuild it as eastern capital.
Constantinople, bestowed by Emp. Theodosius II, early 5th century, to honor his predecessor ...
Istanbul beginning in 10th cen., in Armenian and Arabic documents, and in early Turkish use well before the 1453 fall to Ottomans.
Several other references after that by westerners - Islambol, Stanboul, and others by different Ottoman rulers ..
Return to Istanbul in 1923 ...
I started my own genie story (on Patreon only for the moment) and didn't want to do the simple 3 wishes mechanic. However, the 3 wishes are such an ubiquitous meme, it would seem wrong if the genie's master didn't have it in his head when he first brings her out of the ring. (Or lamp or bottle as the case may be.)
"I get three wishes?"
"Yes, but--"
"Right, for my first wish I want--"
"No! The wishes were decided when I was bound to the ring."
"Uh..."
Reed James did similar with his battered lamp series. Kyle expected Aaliyah to be a three wish genie, but it turned out she wasn't. Just by having the two to three sentence exchange pivoting from the default expectation reorients the audience from their "There are only three wishes." preconceptions.
That said, while my suggested pivot isn't a bad tactic, writing the story how you want, different or not, and expecting the audience to keep up shows your readers a level of respect I always appreciate from writers.