Forum: Lost Stories

Nope. This goes back several years. I found an old email where I asked this question to one of the author's forums a couple of years ago, and it had been a year or two already by then. But thanks for responding.

See the comments under "Not sure this is the right spot..." thread started yesterday. Response by Lazeez

Under Lazeez's definition apparently I can gently tweak a John Grisham novel and post it here. That should get the downloads.

And it will be so worth the effort for you. Knock yourself out.

Your last statement cannot be true and I'd even call it blatantly false.

Examples off the top of my head:
J. Michael Straczynski had to hunt down a Babylon 5 fan who came up with the same plot for an episode as he did and posted it on a forum that JMS frequented.

Harlan Ellison's name was added to the Terminator credits after he filed a suit alleging that the story was a mix of two Outer Limits episodes he wrote.

Paul Verhoeven had to acquire the film rights to Starship Troopers after someone pointed out that the script had some basic ideas and plot points that were similar to the book.

How about superheroes like Superman or Batman? Just character ideas, but still protected by copyright.

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In the case of "Spirals" and "A Good Man" there is more than just a basic plot similarity, as one reviewer put it:
"It would have been better yet if the story (without the ending) had not been a clone of another story on line from 1997."
There are whole scenes and plot threads that are retold scene for scene. The only way this would be okay is if it was the same author or if the "new" story acknowledged the original in some way (which I do not think it does).

And regarding your first statement:
So if I take a story, run it through a thesaurus (or maybe gorewrite or complex sentence generator) a few times so no two phrases remain the same and clean it up I could post it here as my own work with your blessing?

J. Michael Straczynski had to hunt down a Babylon 5 fan who came up with the same plot for an episode as he did and posted it on a forum that JMS frequented.

That he hunted the fan down is not proof that he was legally obligated to do so.

Taking ideas from fans without credit is a good way to alienate a fan base.

Harlan Ellison's name was added to the Terminator credits after he filed a suit alleging that the story was a mix of two Outer Limits episodes he wrote.

An out of court settlement, particularly such a simple one is not proof that a plaintiff could have won on the merits at trial.

Paul Verhoeven had to acquire the film rights to Starship Troopers after someone pointed out that the script had some basic ideas and plot points that were similar to the book.

The major studios are sensitive about copyright and trademark issues. Often, more sensitive than the law actually requires. It's a professional courtesy issue.

How about superheroes like Superman or Batman? Just character ideas, but still protected by copyright.

You are wrong. Characters, particularly visual comic/tv/movie characters are protected by trademark, not copyright.

Okay, characters are protected by trademark not copyright, noted.
Still, ideas can be protected via copyright, trademark or patent (see Namco's patent on mini games on loading screens for example).

Still, ideas can be protected via copyright, trademark or patent (see Namco's patent on mini games on loading screens for example).

Not under US law.

Ideas are protected only by patents.

Trademarks protect names, phrases and some images.

Copyright protects music, text, and images.

ETA: These are three completely separate concepts with entirely different rules. However the conflation of these concepts under the term "intellectual property" has lead many people to confuse the rules between them.

I am neither a lawyer nor am I am an American, so I admit that my knowledge on this topic is rather limited and I'll accept your points in regards to the laws.

The point I was trying to make (very badly) is that "A Good Man" blatantly plagiarized "Spirals" with no repercussions.
That's my problem and I do not understand why it was allowed.

The point I was trying to make (very badly) is that "A Good Man" blatantly plagiarized "Spirals" with no repercussions.

1. Plagiarism is an academic concept. While it has spread beyond academia as an ethical concept, it has no basis in law in either the US or to my knowledge in Canada.

Plagiarism as a concept, to the extent it exists at all in the world of fiction is a weak concept. Authors borrowing story concepts from other authors is quite common and has been for a very long time.

There are legal penalties only for things that rise to the level of being copyright violations.

Lazeez has a legal obligation to try and filter out copyright violations and take them down when they are brought to his attention.

He has no legally enforceable obligation to do anything about things that amount to plagiarism but not copyright violations.

2. While anyone can report suspected copyright infringement or plagiarism to Lazeez, once Lazeez has investigated and decides that no action is needed, only the author of the infringed work has any legal or ethical standing to pursue the matter any further.

Some sounds are also trademarked. The sound of a Harley motorcycle comes to mind. The Tarzan yell from old-time radio is another. The NBC chimes. AOL's "You've Got Mail." There must be others, but I don't remember them.

There was the case of (either Andre Norton or Marion Zimmer Bradley) who was writing a new book over 3/4 finished, and saw a piece of fanfiction using the same story idea. The "fan" demanded #1 co author credit & #2 royalties. The book ended up being trashed and that author banned all fan fiction from that point on.

lso, how does the author protect his rights if he allows fanfic or doesn't chase them?

The authors rights (in terms of copyright) are not in any way impacted by allowing fan fiction.

Unlike trademarks, you can not lose a copyright due to selective enforcement.

Also, independent creation is a valid defense against claims of copyright infringement. And once raised as a defense, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove that the defendant was aware of, and had access to the infringed work.

My own opinion on fan fiction is that the fans doing it should avoid using iconic characters from the original work as main characters. Create your own characters in the world created by the original author. This is safest for both of you.

My own opinion on fan fiction is that the fans doing it should avoid using iconic characters from the original work as main characters. Create your own characters in the world created by the original author. This is safest for both of you.

As a reader I agree with this part. But will allow for the usage of the original authors characters in a support role where those characters are not changed in any manner. Its okay say to have your characters talk with them or obtain advice from them, but don't directly use or change any part of them in the story. They are reference characters (background) only.

As a reader I agree with this part. But will allow for the usage of the original authors characters in a support role where those characters are not changed in any manner.

What part of "as main characters" from my comment did you not understand? :)

All original plot characters are protected in some form or another unless the change is agreed to by the original author. That does not stop them from being background (supporting) characters in another story.

All original plot characters are protected in some form or another unless the change is agreed to by the original author. That does not stop them from being background (supporting) characters in another story.

Again, my original comment was that original plot characters should not be used as main characters in fan fiction. You have neither contradicted me nor added anything particularly useful

Plagiarism can only be a tort if the one being plagiarized can prove some material loss due to the plagiarism.

Actually, plagiarism isn't recognized as a tort in the US even then. Your example doctoral candidate would have recourse through academic discipline, but that's it.

That's what I was trying to say. The PhD suffered no material loss by being plagiarized, so the only recourse is academic discipline and/or public disclosure of the misdeed. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single scenario where being plagiarized would result in a material loss.

BTW, I seem to remember a famous author saying that there are only something like plot lines, and that every other story is some combination of some or all of those basic plots.

I remeber reading that there was 8 or 12 basic story lines. I think the book was the 1st ed storytellers guide for vampire by white wolf. And if i am remebering corrwctly they attribute the quote to the bard

THAT is slightly, but DISTINCTLY different. I have not been active on the Baen's Bar forums in years (or the Assanti Shards site at all) but the bar has three sections for this:
1) 1632 Slush - write the story and post it here
2) 1632 Slush Comments - this has been described as one of the most intense critiquing sessions out there. Content, grammar, flow of story, technology, history and much more, all get combed through, picked at and and polished.
3) 1632 Tech - Who got sent back, what got sent back i. e. encyclopedias heirloom seeds steam experts doctors herbalist(pot growers) what has been developed in cannon at that time. what was already there, people tech and history. There is a delightful lady who is a retired history professor who studied this era. She really helps to keep things "real".

Now this is the important distinction. Once the story is accepted for publication it is cannon. Not even Flint can write something contrary to it. Because this is not done in hiding, if there is a story conflict before acceptance there can be discussion and accommodation. There can be no -It's my idea and you stole it, give me money and recognition or I'll sue!

A problem some writes are experiencing on SoL is critics are being as rough on them as the Bar Flies are in 1632 Slush Comments. However, there are major differences. SoL writers are for the most part not writing for pay or if they are they are self publishing (with one or two exceptions). 1632 Slush writers are looking to sell their work at industry standard rates to an established publisher (Baen). the 32 Slush Comments acts as a filter to help writers clean up their work before the Ed Board buys their work.

2) 1632 Slush Comments - this has been described as one of the most intense critiquing sessions out there. Content, grammar, flow of story, technology, history and much more, all get combed through, picked at and and polished.

Fan Fiction.

Every word you write about fans moving air, even farting, must be internally consistent and "true". No matter what powers the blades of the fan and how fast, you can't have a hurricane of air from a window fan. If it is in the attic, it can be a fan attic.

And if it has magic in it, it may be a fan-tasy.

And if it has magic in it, it may be a fan-tasy.

Abracapocus

Hocus Cadabra