Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

in other words, catman's bad writing - then catman is one of those arrogant assholes that I'll add to my 'Do Not Bother to Read' list.

Wheezer this was the third post and it was yours

Let's quit cherry picking out of context and look at the whole comment, shall we?

I suppose it depends on what the reader was finding 'wrong.' If the reader was just expressing an opinion because he didn't like the way the story was going, then catman is justified. If, OTOH, the reader was pointing out spelling & grammar errors, homophones, plot inconsistencies - in other words, catman's bad writing - then catman is one of those arrogant assholes that I'll add to my 'Do Not Bother to Read' list.

Ain't it funny how leaving out a couple of if/then statements can completely change the tone of a post?

Thank you for restating your position. We get it. The "fuck you" comes through loud and clear. The lack of reading comprehension comes through also. My comment contained two if/then statements. It was not necessary to read the story as I was not criticizing the writing. I was criticizing the reader and the author. If the first if/then statement was true, then shame on the reader. If the second statement was true, then shame on the author. At that point, I had no idea which if/then statement was correct.

Wheezer, you know that I never said that, nor implied that. It is probably what you would have meant if you made the statement that I put on the story. However, all I meant was don't read it if ya don't want to.

I agree with the "never said that" part. I disagree strongly with the "nor implied that" part. That's my opinion. Several, if not most of the other contributors to this thread also encouraged you to see the benefits of always striving to improve your work - even if the improvements are very minor. That's not a criticism of your work. It's exactly the same thing as the effort you put into learning the job skills you listed. I'm an amateur Luthier. I build musical instruments for fun and my own enjoyment. Maybe it's just me, but even though it is only a hobby, I always strive to do my best and to improve myself and my skills. "Good enough is never good enough" is something I was told many years ago by a man who started a small manufacturing business with his brother in his garage and turned it into a multi-million dollar worldwide company. You don't need to own a successful multinational company to think that "good enough" is never good enough.

I don't know if Mother is checking these threads in the new arrangement, but I think we may need her assistance. Mother S, are you there?

bb

Mother S, are you there?

Serena said she would not be able to use this forum.

Serena said she would not be able to use this forum.

If I remember right, it was something to do with SoL not being friendly enough with her mobile device, I wonder if the changes Lazeez has made in the last few months has changed that enough so she can? Maybe someone with her email should ask about her current ability to access or not.

If I remember right, it was something to do with SoL not being friendly enough with her mobile device,

I remember her saying she had to do it through email. Like me, she didn't use Google Groups but communicated with email. With the new forum, there is no email option so she said she couldn't use it.

Criticism is one thing.

A published author I know (published through Penguin and distributed in many countries) is from Ireland. She got a negative review on Amazon from a reader who complained about typos. What he called typos was British English spelling. The negative review was unjust, but that's the life of an author.

A response along the lines of "Why did you include X in the story? X is just icky." Is an entirely different animal.

My answer to that is simply, "That's the story I wrote."

Hi. First, thanks for your writing. Yes, you push at the taboo; that can be fun!
I think there are a lot of other responses. I want to start though by saying that I'm not saying you should make them. You asked a question (probably rhetorical) about how could you constructively engage with a reader who was squicked by your story. I think about communication and so i'm answering. Perhaps someone here will want to engage with a reader so I'm going to take my best crack at giving advice here. I totally understand that you might not think it worth the effort; I'm not judging nor will I ever presume to decide how you should spend your time.

As background I'm writing as part of some spiritual work I'm doing to help people grow as lovers. Even so, towards the middle or end of this year I'll probably be posting a longish story coded scat/ws/snuff/slave with a significant MM component. I suspect that will pull the trolls out of the woodwork:-) It's a struggle to explore love in a challenging, violent, but compassionate environment. So I've been doing a lot of thinking here, and have practiced similar communication challenges is other spaces.

I'll start by asking the reader why they are contacting me. Are they interested/happy about some aspects of my story and hoping for something similar that doesn't squick them? Are they trying to get me to change what I write? Are they confused and hurting looking for understanding?

If I have something that might interested them coded differently I'll pass that along. If they are lashing out but can be constructive, I might try to trade understandings. I have blog entries discussing a bunch of different ways to view ws that try to get into the psychology of using it for more than degradation. I totally get not being into mm/scat/ws/bdsm/whatever. When I'm not into something though, it doesn't produce a strong reaction. Yeah, I don't want to read that. OK, spend my time elsewhere. If the story is good, skip the scene. If not, find another.

Some people though really seem to react strongly. I honestly don't yet connect with that. If a reader came along and was willing to explore why they reacted strongly just because they didn't like what I had to say, I'd love it.

I'll point to a couple of related posts I have.
https://venus-ardens.org/blogpost50-Healing-Across-the-Gulf-of-Disagreement
https://venus-ardens.org/blogpost20-Sacred-Water-Sports

Here is where I disagree. I am specifically talking about a case where a reader was squiked by coded for content.
If they feel that strongly about it, why the fuck did they start reading the story in the first place.

Sure, like Switch in the discussion on said and dialogue tags, I'm not here to convince you of anything. If you'll take the time to try and understand me, I'll generally take the time to communicate and when I communicate I'll try my best to understand you. It's the understanding I value, not changing my opinion or yours.

In the above, I understand neither why someone would feel that strongly about a story, nor why they'd read (and especially comment) on such a story.
My experience is that if I spend the time I can often connect with people and learn from them in such situations. The healing across the gulf blog post talks about the general concept, although a friend of mine is writing up some anicdotes I found really interesting in this space.
gaining that understanding is valuable enough for me to spend my time. I totally get that it may not be for you. I'm not trying to spend your time on the task:-)
I do think that assuming the reader is dense is likely to decrease the chance of success.
I do think I understand where you're coming from and thank you for sharing. I hope you've gained some insight into a different way to look at the world, one you probably won't choose to adopt.

"Go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw"?

One of my favorite ones has long been to simply say "Know yourself". Then after a sufficient pause, add in "In the biblical sense".

Which quite literally I told them to "Go fuck themselves", but most have absolutely no idea what I actually said.

Which quite literally I told them to "Go fuck themselves", but most have absolutely no idea what I actually said.

I've been known to tell people to consume feces and expire. More elegant than a simple eat shit and die.

I also particularly like fornicate thyself and the steed upon which thou art astride.

I also particularly like fornicate thyself

How about 'Go and autosodomise'?

AJ

Claiming your too old to learn new things is a lousy argument. While you don't have to attend university to write, one should always focus on improving one's craft. Saying you're too slow just means you don't care how good your writing is.

And my response to that would be "That is what many here are actually doing."

One of the very reasons I started writing (in addition to tell stories) is to improve my writing. And when compared to what I was putting out 25 years ago, I have improved a lot.

I still have problems, and I am thankful to those that do actually point out my mistakes. I have thanked them, both in messages in return, as well as in here.

However, I also get the occasional "You write like shit, just quit asshole!" type of messages. And I bet you can get where those kinds of messages end up, unanswered.

I still have room for improvement, and I have been. My earliest stories almost never got corrections, because back then nobody gave a damn. Today, I frequently get 2 or 3 if I make a mistake.

And in the last few years, that has decreased drastically. Some of my earliest chapters of Country Boy (circa 2018) would come with a dozen or more corrections. But I have learned a lot since then, and I think in the last several chapters, I have had a single correction (I did a typo of "buy" instead of "by").

Richard is one of those that has pointed them out to me, and in looking back I have not had a message with corrections from him since Chapter 40 (I recently posted 47). So apparently he is finding my scribblings acceptable now, and I am glad because seeing the corrections in my inbox decrease is very satisfying to me.

Which is why this year I have actually been spending a lot of time going back through older stories and editing them, cleaning them up to make them more presentable. Using what I have learned in the last 3 years to make them better and easier to read.

And yes, I did a lot of writing in the past. But writing memos for the military or technical writing for computer techs and users is very different than writing stories. I have had to learn an entirely new skillset.

***Only after posting this did I notice the date, holy Necrothread!***

Good storytellers with bad writing skills need the services of an editor & proofreader. Don't want to do that and don't give a shit? That's not writing, that's masturbating with a keyboard. Like the other kind of masturbation, you should keep it to yourself.

I haven't seen any flexible or with a hole type keyboards but frustrated writers might be a target market. Anyone know any sex toy manufacturers? Perhaps use of an appropriate orifice in the keyboard could call up some porn on screen, or sound effects. Cleaning electrical parts may be difficult, some sort of replaceable lining, maybe like a condom, might be needed.

You are not helping....but then, that is your intent, I assume.

I haven't seen any flexible or with a hole type keyboards but frustrated writers might be a target market.

My wife showed me a page from one of her catalogues. Don't rule out such an innovation-the mere dildo has come a long long way. In fact, some of the objects shown were frightening. Entertaining, too.

SOL writers had better get up to speed if the story depends on sex toys.

bb

@Wheezer

Good storytellers with bad writing skills need the services of an editor & proofreader. Don't want to do that and don't give a shit? That's not writing, that's masturbating with a keyboard. Like the other kind of masturbation, you should keep it to yourself

I guess this was just a Thank You note and I totally missed the meaning.

You missed the general, non-specific tone of the statement. You are cherry-picking. My earlier statements were suggestions that every writer could use help. I did not get frustrated and lash out until it became clear that you did not give a flying fuck about anything or anyone but yourself. I've read and enjoyed your stories in the past, but after learning a little about the person behind the stories, I shall ignore any current or future writings from you - and I don't care if you make the New York Fucking Times best seller list and top Stephen King. Nobody is perfect. Only fools do not try to better themselves. I notice that you got an editor for your current story in progress. Maybe there is hope for you yet. I never said YOUR writing was bad. On the contrary - once I realized that you use a different pen name here in the forums than on SOL, I stated that you write pretty good stories.

Speaking as someone who writes and masturbates in public (in contexts where the community accepts that), I'd really rather you not tell me what to do:-)
Less flip, I'd rather people share things they produce they are proud of even if there are limits to what they choose to do. Me posting my writing doesn't hurt you. I do try and care about grammar and style, but there are things I've shared where I spent less energy than others. I've seen the value others have found in those, so I will continue, even if you'd rather I not.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't think I have replied to or pointed out anything about you or your writings in this thread at all. If you write what I like and you carry it off with reasonable skill, I might read it. If not, I'll ignore it. I have no interest in telling you how to write, or what to write.

"Saying you're too slow just means you don't care how good your writing is"

Every author has their own goals for writing.
1) Some want to make a profession out of it.
2) Some want to be the best they can be.
3) Some want simply to write a story not caring how well it's written.

It's unfair to hold someone in the 3rd category to the same standards as the other two. Saying that, I go back to my previous comment. If you're going to be an author (that's a writer who makes his stories available to the public), you're going to get criticized. It's inevitable. How the author responds defines his character.

KinkyWinks, here's a tip for using this forum. You don't have to copy and paste someone's words as a quote. One of the nice things Lazeez did was to allow you to highlight the area you want to quote (which is what I did above) before clicking on the reply thing. The system puts the highlighted quote it in a shaded area.

I'm neither an editor nor a proofreader. Thus my suggestion for those (universal 'you') who cannot, or will not be bothered to correct their own work to get one. Those with a 'Fuck Off' attitude toward producing well-written stories that have reasonably correct spelling and grammar tend to trigger my own 'Fuck Off' attitude in response.

I keep telling people that I am not capable of writing better than I do. It is the best I can do, I can't do any more and if you don't want to read it, then don't.

Are editor & proofreader words or concepts you do not understand - or are you just being obstinate? Even the authors on the NY Times best seller's list use editors & proofreaders. Here on SOL there are a number of volunteer editors and proofreaders. All you have to do is ask. Why would you deliberately give your readers and potential future readers the middle finger? Athletes need coaches & trainers to perform at their best. Writers need editors & proofreaders. Everyone can use a little help, and here on SOL it is offered freely.

Do you fail to understand that it is a story I wrote, not an editor. If you can't write without one, that's fine, makes me no difference. I'm writing my stories and again I say, if you don't want to read them, then don't. If you don't understand that, then understand this. It is my god damned story and I will write it the way I want it. You go write yours and leave me alone.

It's times like this that I wish SOL had a block feature like FB. I guess this just reinforces the saying that ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is forever. Also, sayings about getting a mule's attention and leading a horse to water comes to mind. I'm 63. If I'm like this at 70, please take away my access to the internet and make certain my access to others is restricted and monitored.

Why is it that people that never read my stories want to talk about them?

Because some people here may not realize that you are Catman. I didn't pick up on that at first, until I tried to look up KinkyWinks in the author's list, only to not find you. Rereading the original posts in this thread, I concluded that you are Catman, and I have already read several of your stories. Your storytelling skills are pretty damn good. Your writing skills are pretty decent. Your attitude toward people offering help and advice is horrible.

I don't want your help, and I don't want you to try to push me into asking for help. Is that so hard to understand?

Your attitude has came through loud and clear to everyone reading this thread. It's just that you are not the only cantankerous old pig-headed obstinate bastard reading this thread. That description fits some of the rest of us too. ;)

I am sure my parents were married, too.

Well, mine weren't. So take that for what it's worth. As for being pig-headed, it's a state of mind, not a physical state...although I had this boss once... ;)

Thank you Wheezer, and if I do decide to ask for help on my grammar, you will be the first person I ask because I know that it will be perfect. Actually, I kind of like my story the way it is, that's why I posted it with all the errors that I am sure you have found.

If you are Catman, you don't really need my help. I never offered any help, except to advise that free help is available and most authors realize that everyone can use a little help. I'm not an editor. My own stories are not perfect. If someone points out an error, I'll appreciate it and make a correction. If they happen to get squicked out over my story content, then fuck them - don't read 'em. :)

I can tell from what you said that you didn't read the story, if you had you would know that there were very few actual mistakes.

He wasn't talking about your story. He was referring to the way you replied.

BTW I glanced at a couple of Catman's four stories and didn't any particular problems in the couple paragraphs I looked at, so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

I don't think anyone here has any real problems with Catman's writing skills. It's his social skills and attitude that are seriously lacking.

What I was trying to do, unsuccessfully, was to suggest to you to take the criticism, however unjust, in the same stride as you would have taken a praise. But it was not to be. Even after seventy years you did not develop grace or modesty. You seem to fall into a group of humans who believe they are beyond any criticism or rebuke.

I think we are wasting our time with this one. It's now at the level of third-grade name calling and taunts.

Things like "everything you write is shit" is just trolling. If it's "I usually like your stuff but this didn't do it for me because X" or "It's a good story but the X parts would have played better if you'd done Y" then that's more constructive.

Maybe more constructive, but I suspect most authors don't appreciate self-appointed editors. (as opposed to editors who have been tasked with the job by an author.) I personally don't, or would not get offended at anyone pointing out spelling, grammar, syntax type errors. Those are easy to overlook. Sometimes even the proofreaders miss them.

Thanks Richard, now where is that Wheezer guy?

Right here, catching up on the new comments. I stated that I've previously read your earlier stories and didn't find anything wrong enough to make me quit reading them. They were pretty good stories. My polite suggestions that every writer could use the help of an editor or proofreader were met with a hard-headed "fuck you" attitude. You are not the first writer on SOL (or any of the other story sites) to show such disdain, such total lack of respect toward their readers (and other authors) and I doubt you will be the last.

you will have to either dig it out of Barron of Ideas reviews under the reviewer

Loved the barron's [sic] closing comment regarding "earthmoving equipment porn": "I wonder if Lubrican has written a story about Bob cats?"

Robert, are you there? I second barron's query and look forward to the story.

bb

UPDATE: Since I'm always impressed with my own ideas I sent Lubrican a note asking him to write the story. One can hope.

Depending on what is done to them or with them, the more arse in a story the better, in my view.

I think it's all on barron (that's the way he spells it, so that's that in my view-the [sic] flags for, as Catman put it, the "grammar guys" to know it wasn't a mistake-unless, of course, barron's choice of name was a mistake in the first place, but that's on him.

Anyway, you're off the hook (or cannot claim credit for, if you prefer) for the whole Bob cat / Bobcat thing. That was barron's entirely. And I still think it was a great and funny idea.

As for the age thing, barron claims to be 71.

Cheers,

bb

Richard, did I leave a space in Bobcat?

I've a work in progress with a Main Character named Bob Katt. I started it about a month back, but no where near done with it yet.

So someone who writes squit about enemas flamed an excellent author off this site.

The subject matter of two of my stories is irrelevant. I think it is an extreme stretch to describe my replies to Catman as flaming, harassing, cyber bullying or any other derogatory style. He, on the other hand, got madder and madder and less reasonable at almost everyone in the thread as time went on.

flamed an excellent author off this site

False: Catman was still posting new stories on SOL in November 2017 - a year after the last original post in this thread before it was revived.