Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

Thank you very much. I read the entire thing and more or less understood most of it in general. When it got into details of how more granular results make up the total, it was more confusing. It was enough to understand that today's "perfect" is again 1600 - but I'm not sure what the optional essay is worth. They seem to be saying don't worry about it because it doesn't count in the score - but it's important anyway.

I took a look at the online practice test.
Is the US math level really rest of the world middle school level?
Any 13-14 years old would get a near perfect score on that here...

And why would you need a calculator for such simple calculation?

Is the US math level really rest of the world middle school level?

I don't know what practice test you looked at. I do know the last group of newly minted engineers I had to train were severely lacking.

Thank you. Were you given an opportunity to retake the test when you were a junior?

So higher scores don't really predict how well you will do in every major or college.

True to an extent. IMO, STEM majors do not vary as much institution to institution. Conversely, liberal arts and business majors can vary significantly.

Thank you. My personal experience with MBA-degrees leaves me wondering if such a graduate degree is worthwhile. I have not met enough to reach a conclusion and my sample is so small it's probably not representative. The ones I have met (and that's not many) seemed to be full of theory and lacking horse sense. I've been pretty impressed by the STEM majors I've met - again not very many.

I've met and interacted with many of both from around the world. The lack of 'horse sense' is found in about equal numbers for both. That's obviously a subjective observation on my part, but rings true in my mind. Proportionally the observation was heavily weighted towards STEM, but it was inevitable to run across many MBA types given the normal size of projects I was involved with.

The increasing numbers of them (lack of horse sense) in my fields was the primary motivator in my early retirement. I don't want to be associated with, or have any part of any project that comes apart catastrophically resulting in multiple deaths. Proper design and build out cannot be 100% handled from behind a desk as theory only goes so far.

If designers had to do the physical behind the wheel testing of their designs I bet horse sense would find it's way back in. If for no other reason those without it would die off.

Three people were killed on my last project, one of which was the engineer of record for the lift that failed killing them. There were multiple points of failure in that. Design, procurement, management, etc. The FEED (front end engineering and design) was the only solid reference to it. Site EOR took it on himself to 'work with' procurement to find a way to build it faster and cheaper for the project manager.

Substandard materials, alteration to FEED, and general shortcuts killed three people.

I've seen that in progression over the last three decades. Cheaper and faster has supplanted quality and safety. The icing on the cake was being 'directed' to cover the the PM'S arse. I packed my gear and walked off.

The emphasis is going to be on the dying off. Cranes, buildings, bridges, planes, ships, you name it. The problem is endemic and a whole lot of people are going to die as a result.

One sure way to stop that is to do what the Soviets did to their paratroopers make them pack their own chutes and sign off on them.

When did that happen?

Look up Captain Ivan Starchak Soviet circa 1941. He had some of them jumping out of low flying (30 meters) into deep snow with no parachute.

As for the packing and signing off on their own chute, I don't know of anything verified to the effect, but I've heard it happened during their Afghanistan war 1979-1989. That is hearsay from a Soviet paratrooper I meet in the Ukraine in 1997 so take it with a grain of salt. I'd be interested in reading anything that verifies it myself.

Both tests measure how well you do on their kind of test. There is some correlation between how well students do on the tests and how well they do in College/University. It isn't perfect but it saves the higher educational institutions time and money and helps show they are making admission decisions in an unbiased way. "See, we are letting in the best students because they have high test scores."

When I took mine it was still 2400. I don't remember what I got on mine, but it was good. Unfortunately, I grew up in a very strict household, and wound up having too much fun being in college to go to college, if that is understandable. I almost flunked out before I buckled down and started improving again. I took a semester off to earn some money, and when I reapplied my grades were good enough to get readmitted, but not good enough to get back in the teacher ed program (secondary math and science). So I went out into the cruel world to make my way, and wound up a pretty high-powered computer geek. Make of that what you will.

not good enough to get back in the teacher ed program

That is amazing. My understanding is that education majors tend to have lower high-school grade points and SAT scores, significantly lower than other students. Of course that was in the 1960s, things may have changed. Being a teacher is not a high paid job and although you get a long summer vacation most teachers either have jobs or are studying to get masters degrees or advanced courses required to stay teaching.

you get a long summer vacation

I wish someone would remind my wife of that. She only gets two months, give or take, and still manages to go into her classroom during vacation...

you get a long summer vacation

I wish someone would remind my wife of that. She only gets two months, give or take, and still manages to go into her classroom during vacation...

What many people don't know is that for many teachers those three months off are without pay. I realize that in areas that have strong teacher unions that may not be the case, but it is a reality for many. Luckily the schools my ex taught at let the teacher have the option of having the nine months of pay spread across the entire year. That was a great help in setting a budget.

What many people don't know is that for many teachers those three months off are without pay.

Teachers may be under paid in some places, but not everywhere.

In Wisconsin, despite not getting paid for the summer vacation, median teacher annual earnings are still $10-20K above the state wide median for the general population.

Teachers may be under paid in some places, but not everywhere.

If you compare teachers to entertainers (actors, football players, etc.) teachers as a group are underpaid if they are judged on relative worth to the nation.

teachers as a group are underpaid if they are judged on relative worth to the nation.

Just out of interest, how do you calculate the 'worth' of a person 'to the nation'.?

Are you suggesting there is some kind of recognised scale of 'worth'.?

How is this value calculated..?

Is the value fixed, tied to inflation, or....?

Just out of interest, how do you calculate the 'worth' of a person 'to the nation'.?

Are you suggesting there is some kind of recognised scale of 'worth'.?

How is this value calculated..?

Is the value fixed, tied to inflation, or....?

Just consider the future of nation without teachers compared to one without entertainers. I'm not saying entertainers aren't important (you know, bread and circuses) but without teachers it won't last another generation. No need to calculate anything, you couldn't if there was no teacher to teach you how to calculate ;)

Just consider the future of nation without teachers compared to one without entertainers.

Consider relative numbers and relative audience size.

There are far more teachers than there are entertainers who make $millions.

Teachers are constantly complaining that class sizes of 30 to 40 are too large. However, an entertainer today can easily serve an audience of millions of people with a single performance.

Try taking that comparison out to $annual income/annual total audience vs $annual income/students taught per year.

The truth is, that teachers unions are constantly fighting to have teachers paid more for doing less.

To pay teachers the way we pay entertainers, we would have to cut the number of teachers by 80%-90% and each teacher would have to teach hundreds of thousands of students per year.

To pay teachers the way we pay entertainers, we would have to cut the number of teachers by 80%-90% and each teacher would have to teach hundreds of thousands of students per year.

You understand that your comparison is totally ridiculous?
Besides the fact that a teacher has a completely different job to do he or she has multiple classes every work day with 30+ students. Not two nights a week with an audience of 100 like most entertainers hope to have. I can't judge how salaries are in the US. Here in the Netherlands salaries aren't that bad but the work pressure is way too high because of the shortage in available teachers. Some classes have to be shut down because there's no teacher available. Now that is a bad thing. I wouldn't loose a minute of sleep if an entertainer canceled a performance or quit all together. Teachers are a must to have, entertainers a nice to have.

Just consider the future of nation without teachers compared to one without entertainers. I'm not saying entertainers aren't important (you know, bread and circuses) but without teachers it won't last another generation. No need to calculate anything, you couldn't if there was no teacher to teach you how to calculate ;)

So there is a 'scale'.

If you compare teachers to entertainers (actors, football players, etc.) teachers as a group are underpaid if they are judged on relative worth to the nation.

Or teachers aren't underpaid, but rather the entertainers are overpaid. To cherry pick entertainers as a point of comparison is drastically unfair/unreasonable and can't prove what you want it to prove.

Also, you aren't really comparing median entertainer incomes to median teacher incomes, but are handpicking a handful full of stars on the entertainer side. The majority of entertainers don't make nearly that much.

If you compare teacher median income vs general population median income state by state, teachers do fairly well, in all but a handful of states.

not good enough to get back in the teacher ed program

That is amazing. My understanding is that education majors tend to have lower high-school grade points and SAT scores, significantly lower than other students. Of course that was in the 1960s, things may have changed. Being a teacher is not a high paid job and although you get a long summer vacation most teachers either have jobs or are studying to get masters degrees or advanced courses required to stay teaching.

This was at a private religious institution that focused on developing teachers for their own elementary and high schools.
And before you think poorly of their educational standards, they are currently rated as one of the top private colleges in the Midwest.

Education is an underrated profession these days. Largely terminally underpaid. Lack of dedicated teachers lead to lowering of standards. Governmental interference and oversight lead to lowering of tuition. Lack of parental involvement leads to dysfunction.

This is one of the reasons I don't use my degree. I would rather build body parts.

I remember a tory, I don't remember by who, where teachers started out in upper level administration, and as they progressed would move lower in the hierarchy until, after passing some rigorous screening and testing, they were finally allowed into a classroom to do the actual teaching, meaning that the best and most dedicated were the ones that did the teaching.

Also, I had high hopes that as the last of the teachers that went to college to escape the draft during the Vietnam era, and went into education as a job and not a calling, would be retiring that maybe we would return to a time when the people who went into education looked to as a calling rather than just a job.

Also, I had high hopes that as the last of the teachers that went to college to escape the draft during the Vietnam era, and went into education as a job and not a calling, would be retiring

Unfortunately those people now control the education programs (where people get the degrees/certifications needed to become teachers) in most universities.