Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

The long, long sagas follow the children through life.

I was talking about a story, not a long saga. Those bore me to death. I don't want to follow a character through life. I want to see a snippet in his life, something that's interesting.

By the way, if I'm not mistaken (was the reference to Holmes here or in another thread?), Holmes never survived the fall off the cliff. Instead, the later books were all flashbacks to his earlier years. But it's been so long that I've read them, I could be completely wrong on this.

No books are involved. The Sherlock Holmes mysteries were published as free standing stories in a London news paper.

Wrong. Some were published as novels in the first place, and many were re-printed as story collections while ACD was alive. There's an on-going copyright issue because of the differences in the UK and US copyright laws. When ACD visited the USA a US publisher got permission to put out a collection of some of his works which and those works are still under copyright control of that publishing house in the USA, while are in the public domain outside the USA. Which is why some titles are made as movies outside the USA so they don't have to pay royalties on the works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Conan_Doyle_bibliography

What Richard said.

Readers fall in love with characters and stories. Just look at the successes of J.K. Rowling, J.R.R. Martin, S.M. Sterling, Terry Goodkind, etc. etc. All have created extremely popular story universes and characters that readers cannot get enough of.

Publishers push for sequels when the original is an exceptional book. They know the reading public will love it and will look for sequels. iirc, the rights for sequels are often negotiated before the first book is released if it looks like it will be a hit.

Publishers push for sequels when the original is an exceptional book. They know the reading public will love it and will look for sequels. iirc, the rights for sequels are often negotiated before the first book is released if it looks like it will be a hit.

Until recently, sequels were the exceptions. They typically only succeeded with well-known authors. But after a whole series (pun intended) of smash-hit YA series, now traditional publishers are demanding that new authors turn their single book into a series before they'll even consider it. Whereas before they saw a pile of unsold books if the first book flopped, now they see easy marketing for an additional two books (in ever decreasing amounts).

And that is a prime example how the scoring can deform the reality.

You can go back to the stories and enter a new score. The system as it is now, and has been for a few years, will remove your old high score and replace it with the latest score you give it. If the old score was prior to the current system it will register the latest score and lower the overall score, anyway.

I may be mistaken, but I found that once I give a score to a chapter or a whole story, I can not vote again.

You can vote again. If you go to the voting it will show you what you scored it last. All you have to do is change it.

ADDED WITH EDIT:
Not only is that good for voting a chapter at a time, but sometimes I reread a story without realizing it. When I go to vote I find out the last time I read it I have it a higher or lower score than I would now. I re-score it.

In the past you were restricted to give one score only, but the last time (some years back) there was a change to the scoring system Lazeez created a system where in recorded the score you gave to a story and you can update it at any time. When you do your previous score is removed and the new one applied to the story. Even when you go back and re-score one you previously scored under the old system the new score is applied to the story's score.

In the past you were restricted to give one score only, but the last time (some years back) there was a change to the scoring system Lazeez created a system where in recorded the score you gave to a story and you can update it at any time.

Ernest, the old system had a bug in it and relied on the site's cookies to determine who'd voted on a particular story. Given that, many people were voting for stories multiple times. Given that background, Lazeez revised the voting, giving each reader/story combination a unique score and allowing them to modify it over time (assuming readers would want to change their scores at a story's end.

I prefer the new method, especially because I like knowing how readers respond to specific chapters. Though it produces unexpected results when a story completes. Since the regular readers tend to finish it first, the score typically jumps up with everyone's 'final' score. However, when people who've never read it before start reading it (because it's now finished), the score will drop since many of these readers weren't that intrigued by the story premise to begin with. Thus a story might finish with a lower score than it had it's entire run, and not just because it had a poor ending.

Well CW it makes sense what you say and I do agree with you on general. I find it difficult though, to read 25 stories as they go, simply, I can not concentrate and stay in the environment with all of them. That is why I wait for the end, and score once when I'm done.

Believe me, I don't object to either technique (voting once at the end, or voting weekly) as long as readers vote (it's best not being completely ignored!).

The weekly voting doesn't bother me either, because they'll still give the entire book a comprehensive review, which is what helps new readers, many of who--like you--come in after the story is completed.

I don't think this is what Lazeez intended, but it works out in the end--which actually speaks for Lazeez's making it open-ended enough to work in the real world, rather than trying to shoehorn everyone into an 'approved' model.

As for me, I like to encourage authors, especially if they're new or trying something a bit off-center. So I'll vote weekly, rewarding a fast action scene or romantic interlude. Voting up good chapters is a low-pain way of contributing to the creative process.

Wolves & Dragons....another series that I really, really wanted to like, but was pulling my hair out and screaming at the inconsistencies, spelling & grammar mistakes, homophone hell, etc. by the middle of book four. In retrospect, I'm surprised I made it that far. The author's attitude had a lot to do with my dropping it.

Speaking of padding stories, there's one (at least) story out on SOL where the author has padded his word count by the thousands by cutting and pasting song lyrics.. Instead of stating what popular song the characters sang, he follows the statement with the complete lyrics to the song. I gave up around book 3 or 4, but it's now up to book 9 or 10...

the statement with the complete lyrics to the song.

which is also a legal issue due to copyright aspects, which is why I only use a few words when I mention a song.

Perhaps they are a lawsuit waiting to happen, but lyrics aren't that hard to find.

Many such sites actually pay for the right to publish them, while many others are a lawsuit waiting to happen. Some people think the lyrics alone are safe to state, but the copyright on the lyrics is separate to the copyright on the music, and both require legal approval to use if they aren't in the public domain. The latest ruling on the Happy Birthday song is a very good example of this.

edit to add: Just checked a couple of Lyric sites and found this info on terms of use:

http://www.songlyrics.com/

Use of Material.

The Company authorizes you to view and download a single copy of the material on SongLyrics.com.com (the "Web Site") solely for your personal, noncommercial use.

Acceptable Site Use.

General Rules: Users may not use the Web Site in order to transmit, distribute, store or destroy material (a) in violation of any applicable law or regulation, (b) in a manner that will infringe the copyright, trademark, trade secret or other intellectual property rights of others or violate the privacy, publicity or other personal rights of others, (c) that is defamatory, obscene, threatening, abusive or hateful, or (d) otherwise prohibited by the Company.
............

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/about/tos.htm

4.2 By using the Service, you acknowledge and agree that you have no right to provide any files obtained through the Service to any other party or through any other means. You agree that you will not duplicate or otherwise reproduce the Content, or any portion thereof, onto any physical medium, memory or device now known or hereinafter devised. In addition, you agree that you will not attempt to, or encourage or assist any other person to, circumvent or modify any Content protection methods. "Lyrics" means the words of a musical composition.
.................

http://www.metrolyrics.com/

You are only permitted to access and view the Content for personal, non-commercial purposes in accordance with these Terms, and may not build a business or other enterprise utilizing any of the Content, whether for profit or not. Except as provided in Section 4(a) or otherwise expressly authorized by us in writing, you may not either directly or through the use of any software, device, internet site, web-based service or other means download, stream capture, store in a database, archive or otherwise copy any part of the Services or Content; upload, sell, rent, lease, lend, broadcast, transmit or otherwise disseminate, distribute, display or perform any part of the Services or Content; license or sublicense any part of the Services or Content; or in any way exploit any part of the Services or Content. In addition, except as provided in Section 4(a) or otherwise expressly authorized by us in writing, you are strictly prohibited from modifying Content; creating, distributing or advertising an index of any significant portion of the Content; or otherwise creating derivative works or materials that otherwise are derived from or based in any way on the Content, including mash-ups and similar videos, montages, translations, desktop themes, fonts, icons, wallpaper, greeting cards, and merchandise. This prohibition from creating derivative works is applicable even if you intend to give away the derivative material free of charge.

...................

They all seem to insist you can't use them for any commercial style usage, and putting it in a published story (paid for or free) is a commercial style usage. It seems they have the approval of the copyright holders to make them available on their site for non-commercial uses, they may even have paid for that approval.

It may be that lyrics alone are not protected. There are sites you can Google (or Bing) that give the lyrics of lots of songs. Perhaps they are a lawsuit waiting to happen, but lyrics aren't that hard to find.

When I included writer quotes for each chapter in a new book (my lesbian detective story), I researched this. It turns out that you can use 20% of anything within copyright, as long as you properly attribute it. That means that you can't include entire songs (especially if you include the music as well), but you can easily include 1/5th of the total song (potentially a single verse).

Richard, if you're thinking of apps that listen to music and then present you with the words, that's a different case, as the music studios are granting you the rights to the words in the hopes of hooking you as a listening (i.e. they're giving the words away for free in the hope you'll buy the song/album).

Many such sites actually pay for the right to publish them, while many others are a lawsuit waiting to happen. Some people think the lyrics alone are safe to state, but the copyright on the lyrics is separate to the copyright on the music, and both require legal approval to use if they aren't in the public domain. The latest ruling on the Happy Birthday song is a very good example of this.

Ernest, again, the complication to the Happy Birthday song is the combination of music and lyrics. I'm sure you'd have no trouble repeating the lyrics in a story (though technically, that incorporates much more than 20% of the total lyrics, so what do I know!).

I'm sure you'd have no trouble repeating the lyrics in a story

Until this court case repeating the lyrics in a story meant you had to pay royalties because the company was very aggressive in protecting their copyright. However, the court case says they don't have a valid copyright on the lyrics due to the way things happened then, so it's now public domain.

It turns out that you can use 20% of anything within copyright, as long as you properly attribute it

From https://janefriedman.com/the-fair-use-doctrine/

"if you copy ten or fewer words from another book you may likely be able to defend yourself under the doctrine that titles and short phrases are not subject to copyright protection. If you use more than 10 or 15 words, then you should ask those 7 questions above to determine how and if you might be able to invoke fair use as a defense if you get sued for copyright infringement."

If you get hauled into a US court over copyright issues the 20% rule is irrelevant. There are no hard and fast rules under US law about how much of a work can be used under fair use. The courts will consider how much of the work was used, how it was used, the purpose of the use and the nature of the work itself

Part of that determination is your attribution. If you clearly attribute the work to a known author, and identify the work and date, then you're clearly not 'stealing' someone else's work. You're instead admitting it isn't work, and providing links for others to look up the original. I suspect that's where the 20% rule came from. Rather than being written into law, (I suspect) lawyers have discovered that's the 'acceptable' amount juries/judges will allow when they're properly referenced (however, I've got no sources to back up this claim).

The main point, though, isn't to plagiarize, but to credit fragments you reference. If you borrow from Disney, you'll be sued even if it's a tiny fragment, as they're incredibly litigious. However, if you credit a lesser known poet, they're more likely to appreciate your highlighting their work and promoting their own sales.

Uses of fractions of a percent of very large works has been ruled infringing in some circumstances while in others, mostly with images, use of an entire work, even without attribution, has been ruled fair use.

By your own admission, it isn't about how much is used, but the context of it's use. My point was the attribution, not the percentages. More than anything else, you need a defense for your inclusion of the material. If your copy someone else's work, any amount will get you in trouble. However, if you properly attribute your use, and have clear limits on how you're applying them, you better able to defend yourself, rather than simply relying on the courts to decide whether you're guilty or not.

However, in the end, it's a crap shoot, either way. An individual judge will counter what every other judge rules, there's really little rhyme or reason to copyright law. That's why you've got to pick your usage carefully. Avoid Disney, or movies in general, entirely, since they'll sue over any use, and always leave the reader wanting more (so you redirect those interested to the source material). Other than that, there are no hard and fast rules.

However, attribution will not help your defense in court if you are sued.

No, there is no universal protection against copyright claims, even when they're entirely bogus. However, when a jury or judge considers the preponderance of evidence, it'll weigh in your favor (i.e. you're not claiming someone else's work, you're simply highlighting their efforts).

I think you're putting entirely too much effort an absolute copyright protection. People have used quotes in stories for centuries, but you'd have us believe that there's absolutely no legal basis for doing so. I, on the other hand, believe the courts are able to differentiate between fair use and outright copyright abuse. I see the glass as half full, you see it as completely broken and will never use it.

If you don't abuse the system, I think you can get away with some clever use of quotes. They have a long and storied use in literary history, so saying their not legitimate or legal is patently ridiculous.

:D Yup! :D

My guess is the author's main purpose was to reach that magic number that gets free Premium membership - something I will not have to look forward to for a very long time. ;)

My guess is the author's main purpose was to reach that magic number that gets free Premium membership - something I will not have to look forward to for a very long time. ;)

write a good story and you'll get it quicker than you realise because the figure is defined by the story size and the score.

Let's say I give 9 for chapter 4, 3 for chapter 6 and 7 for chapter 8 the system (as I understand it) gives a 7 from me being the latest score.

The concept is you score the whole story, so you really shouldn't register a score until the end and then it's on how you liked the whole story. But since it's possible to score after each chapter some people lodge a score after each chapter, I'd hope they were basing the score on the story overall.

This why I appreciated the author who turned off scoring for the first ten or so chapters. Now that a reader's scoring is changed to the latest score (which may bring it down) I am still a little concerned. In a long story some chapters are good and almost bu definition some are not so good.

Sejintenej, from what I've observed, most readers are fairly good about this. They'll score a story early on how much they enjoy it, then they'll score each chapter as it comes out, voting whether the chapter is especially strong or particularly weak, which is extremely helpful intel. When the story completes, they'll then go back (assuming they're still reading) and give the story an overall score.

What's funny, is that all of my 1-bombers follow the same procedure. They actively read all of my stories, but as soon as they see a new one, they'll automatically vote it as a 1 to punish me for my character's views. However, if there's a strong action scene, all the 1s jump to 3s and all the 3s jump to 5s, then fall back afterwards.

For a long time, they all gave me 1 votes, but I decided to teach them a lesson in voting by restarting the story theme they objected to so much (if featured a FOX News fan, and had nothing to do with politics itself). When they couldn't protest the new story theme, they learned not to score 1s, otherwise they couldn't drop the score at all.

Yet, they're my loyal fans, and I love them one and all. Each of us has our own crazy, the secret is knowing which to keep in our pants and let to allow to roam free. 'D

there is only partial validity in the notion of a story not being over until the character is dead.

That's true, because there are a number of good stories where it continues after the main character is dead, it simply switches to another character or characters - the film Cowboys where the big star (John Wayne) is killed early in it is a classic of this situation.

Sorry, but I returned here after being away to see whether I missed anything, and noticed the following:

If you've ever heard about a movie sequel coming out and said "Now why are they making a sequel to that?", that's a movie that has an ending so good that even the idea of a "further adventures" is not needed.

That's why, before I'll even consider a sequel, I need to identify a new conflict/theme and message, to justify a new story. If I can't figure out a new direction to take the story in, I'll drop it as uninteresting.

That's also how I decide when to break a single book into multiples. If there's a different conflict and the book conveys a different message than the rest of the book, then it's time to split it into separate books.

NO I have to get them out of my head or suffer from headaches. (told you I am odd) anyway just a few words

Sometimes you only have the start of a story or a few scenes, but the rest will come with time when you think about the story, often while putting it down. So don't get over worried about it.

Ok, a word from the idiot author, I am writing 6 stories at once, I haven't seen an end to any of them. Ususally when I write I see the beginning and an end I haven't seen one for any of the six. though tonight while completeing a total chapter, I did start to feel an ending to the Blems.

That's why I don't dive directly into a story. I'll come up with a premise and a plot, then put it aside, allowing the ideas to percolate in my brain over time. Eventually, as the ideas ferment, I'll get a better feel for what to do with the plot. What your describing is more the result of incomplete development. If you don't know where the story ends, you have no clue how to move the story in that direction. In short, if you don't know how the story develops, you'll never know what 'belongs in the story', and what's extraneous. That's why I won't write anything until I have both a beginning, and ending, and some idea on how to develop the story and what I'm trying to say (my 'theme').

That's not to say that my ending is complete. When I wrote "The Catalyst", I knew from the beginning that the main character dies in the end, and what the repercussions of that ending were, but I never knew precisely how he dies. It wasn't until I was starting the final of the six book series that I formulated how he bits it int he end. But I kept revising the epilogue as a way of refining and focusing the story. By knowing how the story ends--even if I don't know the precise details--I understand how to focus the story.

You want to write towards the ending, directing the entire story towards the finished product, rather than seeing 'where the story takes you'. The former produces a consistent progression, while the latter leaves you fumbling for direction.

Note: This is my method of writing stories, but there are plenty of others here who don't follow my methodology. There are several other methods which work. But since you're admitting you've yet to finish a story, it seems clear you're looking for some direction.

For my stories, I invest about 15% of my time in actual writing, about 20% thinking about the story, about 15% formatting and designing covers, etc., and the rest (50%) revising and self-editing.

You don't understand when I start I know what belongs in the story I see the story the only thing I don't see is the ending (not often ). I am a strange writer I write it, then I have to read it as it flows out I put it down then. I am a writer when I write I tune EVERYTHING out I can (helps when you can meditate) I mean everything, I write then if I stop I have to go back and read what I wrote this in turn gives me even more avenues to go down, as I said I am a oddity.

There are obviously stories written on SoL that have more than one author contributing to bring about a great story.

The vast majority of stories, on SOL and otherwise, have plenty of contributors, from editors to beta-readers and commenters, as well as other authors making suggestions, but for the most part, there's one particular individual in charge, calling the shots.

However there are a lot of inactive and incomplete stories that were started great but never continued.

This has been discussed quite a bit, but I'll reiterate: often, it's not just that someone got busy or gave up. Many authors unintentionally write themselves into a corner, and simply don't know how to extricate themselves from a problematic story. Other authors die before they can finish, or in at least one case, are forbidden from accessing computers as the result of unfair prosecution. It's not always a case of someone simply not finishing a story. How a story ends, or doesn't, is probably much more complicated than the stories themselves.

What I would like to know is if there are other authors who would ( with permission of course) take up the mantel and try to finish these great stories?

Again, this gets complicated. First off, the original author has to be accessible to give their legal authorization. Secondly, the story has to be one the author feels a drive to write, and believe they have the expertise to express something by addressing it. Finally, the drive to finish someone else's story has to be more compelling than creating one of their own, which doesn't have all the complications inherent in adapting another's.

The complications can get involved: from tense, perspective, framework, intent, direction to style differences. In order to finish someone else's work, you've got to put your own tastes on hold, and adapt someone else's voice.

An easier approach, is to create a brand new story 'inspired by' the works of someone else. This approach doesn't have nearly as many complications. Hell, many authors on SOL got their start trying to write better resolutions of CMSix's stories!

That's not to say that no one will be interested, only that it's a complicated process, and each author has to evaluate the issues before deciding to tackle it. For most, it's easier writing their own stories, even if they're almost identical.

Edit: Of course, for all those who've made those evaluations, and then decided not to pursue it, readers never hear of the struggles or the numbers of authors interested.

It's the same with fraud in real life- there are 29 types of fraud and everything else is a variant of those

Isn't fraud, fraud? Sure, there are variants (ex. stock vs. bond), but it's still the same crime.