Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

As much as I enjoyed the stories overall, and especially the series with Chuck as the main character, I tended to completely skip over the sex. Way too much swapping and sharing for my taste. So not a harem so much as it was a commune :) If it had been a harem, Steve's (and to a lesser extent, Chuck's) ladies would not have been so hot to fuck every other guy in the trailer park (or outside of the park too for that matter.)

The cool thing was that skipping the hottub scenes et al does not detract from the rest of the stories.

I tend to do that with almost all the stories now...

Which is why many of us now largely forgo extraneous sex scene. While popular with readers, all it seems to do it to give readers yet another another reason to get pissed and badmouth a story, so in the end, you ask yourself whether it's really worth the effort when more people take the story seriously without the sex. It's sad a few bad apples spoil the scene for the vast majority of readers, but with sex scene, you really can't predict who's going to be in the mood to read about sex at any given point. :(

(was it Ernest, Crumbly or REP, who talked about it?)

Arrgh, I should stop answering posts as I work my way down, except that causes me to forget what i was going to say.

In Finding Home I use the early sex scenes to show changes in Al's attitude to sex, people, and life. That only shows in how he deals with people during the sex scenes and how he thinks about them during and afterwards. Skipping the sex scenes means you miss a lot of the attitude changes he has. Once the changes occur and are shown the sex scenes vanish from the story as they've done their job.

Having said that, the stories I wrote with Cazna have a bit of the same, but some also have sex scenes, or extended sex scenes, Caz put in that I wanted to cut, but couldn't.

Then you also have the other side of the coin where Authors put Story-important stuff in the sex scenes, making it impossible to skip the sex. Getting confused reader-e-mails asking about plot points.

(was it Ernest, Crumbly or REP, who talked about it?)

It was probably me, as I used sex to get my characters to 'open up' and expound on the issues they're facing. Thus, whenever someone skipped over it, they'd be hopeless lost by the very next chapter, since the discussion changed the characters' approach going forward.

That's a tricky one. I'm not sure what the author tries to achieve by putting story important things in a sex scene if the sex scene itself is totally unnecessary. Why not put the story important stuff in without the sex?

Because it fits. I've discovered, though trial and error, that my characters don't always admit what they're actually afraid of, or what deeply troubles them. Putting them in a romantic setting with a loved one, and suddenly they're gushing their deepest darkest secrets.

Sure, I would write those scenes to better understand the characters, and then immediately burn them so no one ever needs to see them, but then what's the point. Do we really need more 'perfect' emotionless characters? Or do we want characters who aren't sure of themselves, who are struggling to succeed to prove to us, the readers, that it's worth fighting for what we believe, despite the many naysayers continually telling us that we'll never amount to anything because we weren't handed everything in life?

A character without doubts is akin the the MC stories with human 'sex robots' who never question anything the MC asks them to do, when the MC himself is nothing more than the same kind of 'sex robot' never feeling remorse, guilt or a single twinge of self-doubt.

I agree with you that what sex is there should support the story and the characters.

I've two books I'm working on now where there will be sex in them, as part of the development of the character. And later on in the stories, there will be additional sex, but it's not going to be of the long, descriptive type that is earlier in them, simply because I don't think it'll be necessary at that point.

I've been reading Three Square Meals and I find myself just sliding through a lot of the story because the descriptive sex just isn't necessary to develop the plot, once it's been established in the first place.

That and the excessive "tawny haired" or "beautiful blonde" etc comments. The story has a lot of potential, but is seriously being dragged down by that imo.

That's the danger of the 'never-ending' series stories, they never get the necessary final edit to purge the pointless and unnecessary plot lines. While someone may go back and do a revision/rewrite for a ten or twenty chapter story, they're unlikely too if the story is 50+ chapters! That's why it's best to always write with an ending in mind, simply so you don't get so lost along the way, you can't find your way out of the forest of trivial details. At least with a series (multiple books dealing with the same story theme), each book is revised and cleaned-up before they ever appear in print/online.

I've been reading Three Square Meals and I find myself just sliding through a lot of the story because the descriptive sex just isn't necessary to develop the plot, once it's been established in the first place.

One pitfall to that thinking, is that while a budding relationship develops, the sex is necessary, but then dropping the sex/romantic element entirely leaves you with an 'abandoned spouse' dilemma. Sometimes it's necessary simply to provide continuity in the story.

I've found myself falling into this particular trap often. How much sex is 'necessary to the plot' and what isn't can be tricky, even in the best of times.

"they had sex for 3 hours" brings over the same information as a 5.000-word repeating sex scene.

Dammit, I agree with you. Albeit I'd probably make it sound a little better than that. Either way, you're right.

Sometimes it's necessary simply to provide continuity in the story.

While SOME notation of having sex is necessary, is it needed to repeat what effectively is the same description of a blowjob 50 or 60 times?

Or would it suffice to say, "Alyssa and John retired to his cabin. She looked smug when she returned to the bridge 3 hours later, her belly swollen with his cum.", instead of a three page description that virtually reads the same each and every time, only the woman (or women) involved change.

Note that I'm not knocking the story - it's a slam-bang space opera that I'd like to see finished. I just think it could be made tighter is some of the excessive sex descriptions - especially since it's so repetitious in Chapter 104 to read effectively the same thing you did in Chapter 30 ...

While SOME notation of having sex is necessary, is it needed to repeat what effectively is the same description of a blowjob 50 or 60 times?

Or would it suffice to say, "Alyssa and John retired to his cabin. She looked smug when she returned to the bridge 3 hours later, her belly swollen with his cum.", instead of a three page description that virtually reads the same each and every time, only the woman (or women) involved change.

No, but just because the sex doesn't rise to the level of furthering the plot, it doesn't mean you can skimp on the ongoing romance which keeps the story afloat.

Some authors have 2 versions of a story: one on SOL and the same but with the sex scenes edited out on Finestories. If that is the case for a story I almost always choose the FS version.

And some authors have learned to limit sex scenes to those that tell something about the character or the plot, thus making the skipping of the few sex scenes a loss of important data.

Some authors have 2 versions of a story: one on SOL and the same but with the sex scenes edited out on Finestories. If that is the case for a story I almost always choose the FS version.

I've actually written a couple of stories that deal with adult themes (ex: brother/sister incest), but I keep the sex off-screen, so everyone can wrestle with the conflict. My current story, I wasn't sure I could keep the sex off-screen without spoiling what was required in interspecies sex and how they finally overcame it, so that book isn't appearing on FS. Unfortunately, the sequel (book #3) doesn't have ANY sex in it, so I'm going to figure out how to include the 2nd book anyway.

As a teen, I always liked Science Fiction stories that treated me as an adult (i.e. that didn't try to hide the 'facts of life' from me). So I like taking that approach myself.

If your current book has interspecies sex maybe put them on the other sister-site Scifistories? "Interspecies" sounds like SF to me.

My stories, mostly Sci-Fi, consistently scores much better on ScifiStories than they do on SOL, but SciFi is where stories go to die. It doesn't get many views or readers. It also doesn't get the necessary feedback authors like me need to vet their story ideas, so they'll know which techniques work and which flop.

What that suggestion sounds to me like is: sequester your stories behind a wall where i NEVER have to see them, simply because they don't appeal to ME.

You're free to either read the stories or not, but demanding anything WITHOUT abundant sex stay OFF of SOL is a going a little overboard, isn't it?

My suggestion to put some stories on SFS was because you mentioned not being able to post these on FS. I did not mean that you don't post them on SOL.

Ah, sorry, I didn't understand your thoughts. I normally try to post to each site, staggered to bring a few more readers to the alternative sites, but obviously, not every story fits each site. As I said, the nature of my current story precludes it, as the 'sex parts' are necessary to the development of the plot (i.e. they can't be handled off screen without losing the essential bits).

As for D.S.'s point, if a reader can't identify anything in a particular chapter, then it's likely there isn't anything actually advancing the plot. Now, it's a different story if it's foreshadowing something about to happen at a later point, in which case you're right in urging them to 'wait and see'. But for many, many stories, the sex itself is entirely extraneous to the plot. Romance: not as much.

It's a shame that older stories that fit those sites but where the authors are no longer active can not be copied to those sites that fit. It would greatly enhance the attractiveness of the sister sites.

Now that's a great idea! It's also one which I've used myself, when I 'retired' my Catalyst series. But for far too long, Lazeez has been pumping the sites (at least Sci-Fi) with ancient classics which are no longer protected by copyright protection, making it unattractive new new authors to compete with while not showcasing the local SOL talent that fosters loyal fans. If he started shifting at least some of the more popular archived works to those sites, it would allow those low-income readers to continue enjoying them while breathing new life into them as well, thus making them more attractive to new authors seeking a less-competitive environment (my sci-fi stories get significantly better scores on SciFiStories than they do on SOL, for obvious reasons).

Maybe Lazeez can investigate if there are copyright problems that prevent older stories on SOL to be showcased on the sister sites. It's a hell of a job though digging through those stories to check which site they fit.

If they submitted the story to SOL, I'd think the non-verbal consent implied is submitting the work would also apply to other sites controlled by the site. As for identifying the stories which fit, it shouldn't be that hard. Retiring a story behind the paywall, if it's tagged as 'Science Fiction' you can submit it to SciFiStories, whether it contains sex or not. If it's tagged 'no sex', then clearly it'll fit within FineStories. Though you're idea of readers suggesting stories they'd prefer being preserved on those alternate sights has some merit, especially if it means removing popular stories which attract a lot of readers. At this point, the majority of stories on SciFiStories seems to be the older 'Classic stories' by the older best-selling novelists.

The plan is to have a story server engine that can supply multiple sites according to whatever criteria the site has. So any scifi story posted on SOL becomes automatically available on scifi and if it's no-sex, then it's also automatically available on FS too without the author having to make the effort to post on the other sites, and vice versa for stories posted on scifi and FS.

Great!

Sorta, but at least for FS, I like to cater my stories to fit the site. But, since the few sex codes would limit that anyway, I can continue doing it as I am.)

I wonder whether a 'Romance' site would attract much attention. Many SOL stories would fit, though they fly in the face of most conventional definitions of romance (i.e. they're written from a man's perspective).

The classic are needed to give something to readers come to the site. As you all may know, having a site is a catch 22 thing. No readers come if there are no stories and no authors come if there are no readers. A site has to start with something. The classics don't need permission so they're the best option to start with.

Just as an alternative, rather than posting more classic stories, maybe we should run a few contests? Enter the 'Best Sci-Fi and/or non-sexual story contest and see who wins'. If you didn't limit the time for submission or the length, chances are the entries would trickle in for some time, as the longer stories would take longer to write than most SOL stories allow.

I hope Lazeez picked up on this and does some thinking about the possibilities. It just might be the push SFS and FS need to really get going. Maybe later on even push the classics into a separate section so they don't discourage authors from competing with those.

Since the 'classic authors' don't sign into SOL very frequently, the Classic stories should age out after five years (unless they count as the admin's stories, in which case they'll never age out!).

I'm sure some authors think like that but I'm also sure some other authors feel like they don't belong there.

I don't think it's a matter of them not belonging, but I question whether 1) the large number of Classic Stories being posting is scaring authors away, and 2) whether the few new stories in the most recent stories is then scaring readers away too.

It's like a one-two punch. It seems like a handy way of boosting stories on the two sites, but the anacdotal evidence is that it's harming the alternate sites (though, to be honest, they might not have had a fair chance in the first place and this is just a natural progression of the sites). :(

You should stop thinking about it as a competition, instead relish the honor of your books being listed next to the works of Asimov, Heinlein, or H. G. Wells.

I don't think of it that way, but I've noticed that, as the number of Classic Stories grows, fewer and fewer new authors seem to be posting to the two sites (though Fine Stories is doing better than ScienceFictionStories). Thus my supposition that the one factor is influencing the other.

When I pointed this out to Lazeez, he informed me that my stories were still at the top of the 'recent stories list' despite those stories, without stopping to consider exactly why that's the case (i.e. fewer new authors posting stories which would bump my stories off.

If a story has superfluous, repeating gunfights the same "rule" goes, at least for me. Actually, I think I would stop reading such a story even faster then one with superfluous sex scenes.

This brings up the old 'gun-porn argument'. It isn't the gunfights that bore me to death, it's the heavy military lingo and the characters spend endless hours gathering ungodly amounts of firepower, repeatedly breaking down and rebuilding their weapons, to the point the entire story boils down to endless details of the GUN, rather than the people using the guns.

If I want to read about guns, I'm NOT going to read fiction, I'll sign up with the NRA and get endless gun-porn from the professional gun pimps. I don't mind stories with guns, or with the military, but when the procedures becomes the entire story, it's no longer a story about humans, but entirely about inanimate objects (hence the 'sex-robot' analogies).

That's when you know an author needs a decent editor, one who's not afraid to put a big red X though an entire 5,000 word segment of their story and say "this is completely superfluous and unnecessary, drop it". It may not be what the author wants to hear, but being an editor isn't a popularity contest, it all boils down to what the Story needs to rise to the top.

Valid points - but how is an author to know that the editor's opinion is more valid than his own?

It comes down to trust: do you trust your editor's opinion, and much of that trust is dependent upon whether the editor in question is willing to fight for those issues he believes in. If they just roll over and 'go along to get along', you'll never learn when something isn't right. A good editor will fight with the author frequently. It's frustrating, but it builds better stories. (That is, assuming the author doesn't end up burning the story in question out of his utter frustration!) 'D

Ergo, characters planning a bank heist while having sex.

Not so much 'planning a bank heist', but when the primary characters are facing a mystery they can't figure out, relaxing and letting their guard down accomplishing something that a 'more formal situation' wouldn't. Since most of my stories revolve around teams facing unknown phenomenon, which they only slowly figure out, based on slowly-accumulated evidence, the timing is key to the revelation.

Given the extreme reactions such apres-sex discussions have, I've largely stopped including them, but I'll be the first to admit, that my stories are the poorer for it, since we don't get into the main character's psyche the way I used to. :( Also, those 'talkie sex scenes' always ended up being my most popular—right up there with the big fight scenes—so again, cutting them really curbs the story's overall appeal.

Never the less, you keep harping on about tedious sex scenes as if there is an extra level of caution to consider when writing a sex scene. There is not unless you think that sex in stories is inherently boring, in which case I'd advise not to read stories clearly marked containing sex.

Or at least limit yourself to the 'little' or 'some sex' stories rather than those rated 'much sex' or stroke stories.

SOME stories could be massively improved if they added a breakfast bonding scene instead of the everyday-morning-sex-routine.

I agree with that. New authors throw in the sex scenes because they mistakenly think it's necessary, but intimacy between couples doesn't always include sex. In fact, there's much less sharing between two people during the sex act than there is from their simply being together frequently to share the small moments in life. Focusing on those 'small moments', and learning to identify them, is often a key component is crafting beautiful stories.

By the way, in each of my previous examples, I'm talking about two or three sex scenes in the course of a book, rather than 60+. :(

@awnlee Jawking

I can think of a very highly rated story in which the author embedded lengthy expositional monologues into foreplay and sex scenes.

But was the technique successful or not, in your honest opinion? It's one thing to try a technique, but it's another entirely to execute it properly. I like to think that the more successful authors typically take more chances than those with more demanding fans.

But was the technique successful or not, in your honest opinion?

I think it was a pig's breakfast. The characters were going to great lengths in telling each other things they should already have known, just for the audience's benefit, and as a result the scenes were as erotic as a dish of cold porridge.

But the readers awarded the story a high score. Perhaps they used 'page down' to skip the scenes.

AJ

Does porridge (aka oatmeal) lose a lot of its flavor and appeal when it cools? I've got to admit I never tasted it, neither hot nor cold.

Oatmeal has minimal flavour to begin with ;)

I tend to eat it for breakfast in winter - with lots of sugar, mainly because I'm too lazy to flavour it with anything more interesting. I eat to live, not vice versa.

AJ

I can think of a very highly rated story in which the author embedded lengthy expositional monologues into foreplay and sex scenes.

AJ

A sex scene in a story can be highly expositional without anyone saying a single word.

If you'd said sexpositional, I would have agreed with you. But how can the author have the characters tell each other the minutiae of their backstories without saying a single word?

AJ

In the story I was referring to, the author used foreplay and sex scenes for the characters to tell their backstories to each other and to the audience.

What sort of exposition did you mean?

AJ

That's a very unusual definition, to say the least.

Most creative writing authorities define exposition to be the revelation of background information eg
"Exposition is a literary device used to introduce background information about events, settings, characters, or other elements of a work to the audience or readers." - https://literarydevices.net/exposition/

In my google search for 'what is exposition in writing', all the top links explicitly or implicitly referred to 'background'.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

AJ

But how can the author have the characters tell each other the minutiae of their backstories without saying a single word?

Sometimes, having a character biting their lip and glancing away at a given pointed question speaks much more loudly about what they've suffered than a long bitch session.

If no, then you don't need sex to tell this plot-point.

- Character A and B are caught in the act: necessary
- Character A breaks his penis in the act: necessary
- Character A and B talk about plot-relevant things while having sex: not necessary
- Character A talks about his evil masterplan for taking over the world while having sex: not necessary.

In my case (in my most recent book * * * Spoiler * * *), the sex act is necessary to demonstrate how different species can create a legitimate romantic marriage (including sex). That might seem like a minor point, but that one simple act, forming a bond between previously bonded individuals, forms a major component in the story, as it's what changes the tide of opposition to the characters.

However, as for you point #3, I don't include the 'sex talk' because it's a necessary plot point, but because my characters seem to reveal more of themselves when I put them into those situations than I can think up on my own. Doing so often reveals important character issues I'd never have known otherwise.

In a perfect world, I could do that as a writing exercise, and then include the character details someone else in the story, but I tend to write sequentially, not a series of individual scenes which I later stitch together, and the things they reveal aren't character histories, they concern what those characters are facing at that moment, so the timing is central to the information's usefulness. Given that the stories are better with the information than without, I maintain that the 'apres sex talk' is a vital story element, even if other authors wouldn't choose to go that route.