Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

If you are talking about for posting here, the site currently only accepts stories written in English.

Having a limited amount of dialog in other languages is probably okay, but if it's too extensive, it will detract from the story for readers who don't understand the language used.

Exactly my point. I'm lucky in that I have worked abroad and can understand written Swedish but the two long sentences in Dutch escape me (other words are translated or can be guessed from the context). For me personally the Swedish brought back pleasant memories of 50 years ago but I suspect the vast majority of people over here could not understand even French or Spanish which are supposed to be taught in schools

One alternative is to do what Ernest did in at least one story of his. He pointed out that in one or more sections the language was Japanese but had been translated for ease of understanding except for names primarily. Some things can be determined by usage but there are tons of words and expressions which have to be either translated or explained.

but I suspect the vast majority of people over here could not understand even French or Spanish which are supposed to be taught in schools

Yes, I took Spanish in high school, but I remember very little of the vocabulary, because I never had anyone to use it with outside of class.

Yes, I took Spanish in high school, but I remember very little of the vocabulary, because I never had anyone to use it with outside of class.

Which version? ;-) I worked using a version current in Gibraltar and the Canary Islands but a uni course I am auditing (thanks for the idea Lazlo) covers about six different varieties of Spanish. Whatever you do avoid Paraguayan Spanish - I could never understand it even written.

Which version?

Primarily proper Spanish (Spain) however, a number of Mexican dialect issues were covered.

Yes, I took Spanish in high school, but I remember very little of the vocabulary, because I never had anyone to use it with outside of class.

That is why its best if the writer (storyteller) provides a translation. The writer knows what he meant to say with those words and that is the meaning that is important. One of my favorite methods is the one used by Ernest.

The author Tod has written stories in Spanish which are on this site. There may be other exceptions.

If so, I have no idea how he got them posted by the moderators.

https://storiesonline.net/author/posting_guidelines.php

For now, English Language stories only. A story may contain phrases in other languages but the story must be fully readable and comprehendible by english-only readers. (Other languages maybe supported in the future.)

The author Tod has written stories in Spanish which are on this site. There may be other exceptions.

I read the first few lines of "Virgilio." To my totally non-native eye and ear, they read in very formal and correct Spanish at practically a grade school level, or a very well-done translation from English, i.e., the sentence construction reads more like English than native Spanish. By "formal and correct," I mean not the way two high school or younger kids usually talk.

Ex.: -¿Estás seguro de esto?- Preguntó Virgilio a Mike mientras intentaba trepar al árbol.

"Are you sure about this?" Virgilio asked Mike while he tried [Edit: began, got ready to] to climb the tree. [Fun fact: Google tells me "trepar," which is "climb" in Spanish, is "fuck" in Portuguese (presumably slang).]

-¿Quieres ver a Reina o no?- Repuso Mike desde la base del árbol. -Entonces apúrate, o no habrá luz para que la veas.-

"Do you want to see Reina or not?" answered Mike from the foot of the tree. "So hurry up or there won't be enough light for you to see her."

bb

One problem with providing the original text in a foreign language and then an English translation is who did the translation? There are some concepts that translate weirdly.

Too true. "full like an egg" (literal translation from French) = I'm full, I have eaten plenty. Some Latin languages texts are a nightmare with a half page sentence full of adjectives and adjectival clauses.

If you read 19th and early 20th century novels, a number of them (esp. written in Europe) include quotes in other languages without translation. I think it was assumed that reading would be done by educated readers, which at the time included at least the basic reading comprehension of major European languages and Latin.

There was also an assumption that the reader would have read "the classics", so references to works of literature would be understood with no explicit context. Of course, at the time, the commonly available corpus of writing was far smaller than now, so the idea of every educated gentleman (and many ladies) would be familiar with the same core books was plausible.

I remember a conversation I had with a Professor in Salt Lake City (University of Utah). He said that the word choice should be the word that was easiest to understand. The exception to that rule was if it was a technical paper or equivalent where you had to use those 100 dollar words to prove how smart you were.

I will admit that some words and expressions have become very common across both language and cultural barriers but even those can have problems at times.

There will always be something better coming around the corner. But basics should still apply regardless of the knowledge or skill levels. Just the more skill and knowledge a writer has the easier it might look from the outside.

If your readers only speak English, how does it help the flow of the story to give the original Spanish as it was spoken? For the reader to understand it, you're going to have to supply the translation anyway so use another technique to show the speech isn't in English.

I agree, and certainly if there is a lot of the foreign language used.

However there may be cases where you don't want the reader to necessarily understand what was actually said.

For example:
A story told from the POV of the main character and there is a second character who occasionally swears at the main character in a language the main character doesn't understand and he/she never learns the translation of what was said.

If the reader doesn't know the foreign language, then they won't know it's swearing and you'll lose the effect.

I think you can get a lot of that across by describing tone and body language in the narrative.

Edited to add:

For example:

"Jebi se!" the Croatian woman said as she gave me the finger and stormed off in a huff.

A story told from the POV of the main character and there is a second character who occasionally swears at the main character in a language the main character doesn't understand and he/she never learns the translation of what was said.

I agree, but not with your example. If the reader doesn't know the foreign language, then they won't know it's swearing and you'll lose the effect.

A combination of sounds can be expressed in a multitude of ways

"you silly git" he said smiling (laughing)

"you silly git" he said contemptuously

"you silly git" he shouted

"you silly git" he said menacingly

"du verdamnte amerikanische schwein" he snarled as he raised his revolver

It is seldom the actual words which are important but how they are said and the author's task is to express that.

(BTW - I know absolutely no German so applegoose all round)

I referred at the start to Dutch being spoken (Google translate couldn't handle it); later we had the protagonist talking to his secretary but the writer states that they are talking in Dutch (but the text is English). This is emphasised when his sister complains that, although she is and speaks Dutch, the sounds hurt her throat and wants them to speak English - a good getaround.

edit; apologies to Dominions Son; I think you posted whilst I was typing

Bastard is also a kind of sword. The grip is for one and a half hands, according to Google. I didn't read a lot about it so its not clear to me how many men had one and a half hands.

Bastard is also a kind of sword. The grip is for one and a half hands, according to Google. I didn't read a lot about it so its not clear to me how many men had one and a half hands.

Basically the grip is long enough to use the sword two handed, but the blade is shorter and lighter than a true grate sword and balanced so it can be wielded one handed. You can go back and forth between using it one handed or two handed even within a single fight. You always have to have at least one hand on the sword at all times but you only use both hands half the time, hence hand and a half.

Bastard is also a kind of sword

Bastard is also a kind of file cut, as in 'flat bastard'.

Governments are far more inventive than just fees. Sales Taxes, transfer taxes, inheritance taxes, income taxes, capital levies, parking and traffic tickets, fines, court costs, interest charges on unpaid balances, and lots of just plain fees, for a variety of licenses (car, driver, marriage, pet) improvement districts adding water, sewer, sidewalk, arborist services. I left out real-estate tax and assessments for things like street repairs. I mentioned income taxes, but city, state and federal taxes some incomes. And if you don't take the right amount or more out of your untaxed savings, there is a penalty tax on the amount left on deposit in error. Imports are taxed (duties) Some exports are controlled, I am sure there is a fee to be paid to clear that a particular controlled good is authorized to leave the country. And Passports so you can leave the country are expensive, too.

There is a reason its the Infernal Revenue "Service". In the sense that you take a cow or mare to be serviced by a bull or stallion.

flat broke bastard

And the poor flat out bastard who has too much work.

the word bastard to mean many things

Not forgetting "how's it goin' you Old Bastard?"

KISS it and make it better.

Subtitles, like all translations, depend on the skills and intent of the translator. Long ago I went to a French movie with English subtitles. In a scene the actor went on for several paragraphs, the subtitle said "NO". In some ways English is a more compact language than some of the Romance (Latin based) languages. Some stores have "Slippery when wet" signs translated into Spanish, and the translation is much longer than the English.

Subtitles, like all translations, depend on the skills and intent of the translator. Long ago I went to a French movie with English subtitles. In a scene the actor went on for several paragraphs, the subtitle said "NO".

I don't often see films but I have watched political speeches with oral translation which bears little relationship with the original.

Then we got the hopefully one-off signing "expert" who knew no signing!

Romance languages - depends on the circumstances - I have seen horrendous flowery publicity sentences as well as some which are hardly longer than English

So I'd sit there for hours, listening to the cuties tell me everything about their lives, never understanding a single word.

Reminds me of some people I used to know.
Both were Chinese but one was from Taiwan & the other from Malaysia. He spoke Cantonese, she spoke Mandarin.
After a few drinks (or when she was on a roll) she would always revert from English to Mandarin. It didn't matter how many times he told her he had no idea what she was saying because he only spoke Cantonese.
The number of times you'd see them sitting together, she talking away & him just sitting there rolling his eyes...

After a few drinks (or when she was on a roll) she would always revert from English to Mandarin. It didn't matter how many times he told her he had no idea what she was saying because he only spoke Cantonese

Had this with a school friend of my wife whose mother only spoke ? Cantonese. At a genuine Chinese restaurant she couldn't speak to the waiter but they got over that by writing in Chinese which they both understood. Incidentally my wife's friend now living in MD could never speak direct to her mother because she spoke English!

As to CW's reply to me I was referring to outside work being long and tedious As for Texas Spanish M.I.T. teaches Mexican plus Puerto Rico plus Madrid Spanish and about 4 other varieties of Spanish in their undergraduate course. Even that spoken in South West Spain is totally different to Madrid (which I cannot understand). South America has many different dialects - and don't get me writing about the abomination coming out of Paraguay.

Spain used to be several different countries. Castile and Aragon were united just before Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue in 1492, when their monarchs married. Traditional Spanish is Castilian, if I remember right. It is pronounced like the speaker has a lisp because one of the Kings did have one, and people copied his pronunciation. Once again, I am relying on very old memory, but Madrid was in Castile and that's why Madrid Spanish is another word for Castilian. The Arabs had conquered a lot of Mediterranean Spain and that was another reason why the language in that part of Spain is different. I think El Cid was involved in the reconquest. For similar geographic reasons Portuguese is not Spanish. All the Romance languages started out a local dialects of Latin. Look how different various English speakers are with just a couple of hundred years to develop variations, and with much better transportation and population exposure to how others speak "The Queen's English". Most of the time they speak the King's English but Victoria and Elizabeth II have had unusually long reigns.

You are right about Castillian Spanish but there are at least three other languages in Spain. Llanito is Spanish with Moorish words mixed in and is spoken around the south west - Gibraltar etc. and I was amazed to hear it spoken in the Canary Islands. The major difference is pronunciation - no lisp and pronunciation of letters closer to English. Basque is an ancient language which seems to have no connection with any other language and is spoken on both sides of the border in the north east of Spain. Next we have Occitan which extends from the Alpine valleys of Italy across almost to the Atlantic and half way up France and is still spoken and is an optional minor subject in the French Bac. About 6 major dialects - Provençal, Languedocienne,.... and Catalan which is spoken in Andorre and Eastern Spain and along the border in France. It is closer to Spanish than French. I can read but not speak European Portuguese which has many Mediterranean influences and is very different to Brazilian Portuguese which now includes Amerindian words.

On the other hand, the regional variations in word meaning and pronunciation in the UK developed valley by valley, and it was because there wasn't mass communication or travel that they evolved.
I would guess that a similar situation was created in the southern and western US, where pockets of various nationalities settled in country areas and the isolation was what was responsible for the creation of new words and meanings. Within urban environments it is probably a bit more complicated but Bronx may have been due to a similar cultural isolation. Cockney was developed over a remarkably short period and may be the most fluid form of "English" as it is based on street slang, though trendy types have tried (and failed) to hijack it for their own purposes.

On the other hand, the regional variations in word meaning and pronunciation in the UK developed valley by valley, and it was because there wasn't mass communication or travel that they evolved.

In Norway valleys were cut off from each other and language developed valley by valley. I got caught first time through when a shopkeeper asked me for "shoo" kroner which I didn't understand. I had learned "siva" kroner (both words spelt as they sound, not correct Norwegian spelling for seven). Even n ow there seem to be two "official" languages plus Lap

Once in my checkered past I worked a summer as a customs inspector at LAX. In my pseudo-Argentine-inflected Spanish I asked travelers from Brazil, La ropa es suya?, "Is the clothing [in the suitcase] yours?" "Suya" pronounced Argentine-style comes out as "dirty" in Portuguese.

Once in my checkered past I asked a beautiful girl in a roomful of customers to surrender her innocence to me there and then! Fortunately everyone realised I was just learning Spanish

I have heard, but don't know how true it is, Portuguese is pronounced like Spanish, but with a mouthful of mashed potatoes

Depends on the place. Outside Lisbon it is OMG impossible to catch a single word, Rio - "s" is pronounced "sh" as in shit, (but they could be speaking Japanese), São Paulo is pretty clear, Rio Grande do Sul - one word in three is high German, Salvador da Bahia and north east - listen for the Spanish influence