Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

and most of them are under 100kb, then dude! just use twitter or something.

You don't appreciate shorts stories. O. Henry, Edgar Allan Poe, Charles Dickens, HG Wells, Mark Twain, Stephen King, and many more authors wrote great short stories.

You don't appreciate shorts stories. O. Henry, Edgar Allan Poe, Charles Dickens, HG Wells, Mark Twain, Stephen King, and many more authors wrote great short stories.

For a long, long time, writing short stories, especially 8-syllable poetry, was an assumed part of an education. Without that type of training, most never consider how to say what they have to in concise terms (says he who could't write 147 characters if he had a gun pointed at his head).

I was once challenged to write a 60-word story with a twist. That was fun too.

My "Coming Home" flash story was an entry in a magazine contest that limited the number of words. It was the hardest writing I ever did. Flash is hard.

I suspect the problem isn't with the Flash readers, or with the Flash story system, but with their inclusion with the other stories on the main SOL page. :( It's sad to say, but you really can't expect everyone to get a fair reception when everything is presented as being the same thing.

Maybe it's time for a 'walled garden' approach?

Especially if you can't sort for word-count or number of chapters.

Category Search has a story size in the search criteria. You can restrict the search to story size (either or both: From or To).

So enter 200 or 500 or whatever in the "from" field. You'll never see short stories in the search result. It's size in kb, not words.

Is that available to free readers?

I don't know. It's not in a shaded area or labeled Premier Only. It's in the section after the story codes.

Let's say I read a phenomenal flash story... then what? I want to read more! If I would rate those stories, I would rate "phenomenal" flash stories worse than just good or bad flash stories. Because my desire to want to read more of a phenomenal story has a heavier impact and results in disappointment.

To be fair, rather than putting the author of 'phenomenal flash fiction' on my 'do not read list', I'd instead examine their bibliographies to see whether they had anything substantially longer.

The idea in fiction circles, throughout history, is that short stories and poetry are 'gateway devices' to developing better writing skills. You may not particularly care what writing exercises an authors uses to reach his full potential, but that doesn't mean his novels aren't worth considering.

However, to answer your question, that's why many of us routinely avoid the main SOL page, instead heading immediately for the "Serial Updates" page.

The idea in fiction circles, throughout history, is that short stories and poetry are 'gateway devices' to developing better writing skills.

Absolutely disagree.

A short story is a form of it's own. And in many regards, more difficult to write than a novel.

And poetry is something totally different.

Absolutely disagree.

A short story is a form of it's own. And in many regards, more difficult to write than a novel.

And poetry is something totally different.

They're certainly not all necessary components, but many of the 'great' literary voices followed that progression. By combining the lyric qualities of a literary 'voice' (from poetry), with the brevity (developed from writing short stories) and the storytelling from fiction writing, you have the best of all three worlds. Otherwise, a poet is just a poet, and an author is just an author.

Most never cross over, but those that do bring a hell of a package with them!

If an Authors majority of works are flash stories, is it really your awesome flash story "mad skillz", or is it the only thing he can do?

I was talking more about short stories than flash fiction. I've only written one flash story.

With a novel, the author has the time and words to build worlds, build characters, develop plot, etc. But with short stories, every word counts. And with flash fiction, that's even more true. Literary mastery? I just said it's very hard to do well.

Very short stories on SOL might be more a sex scene than flash fiction. A sex scene isn't a story. Flash fiction is. A short story is.

it doesn't teach you magically how to develop an overarching story, not how to develop a character, not how to do world-building, or quality consistency, or foreshadowing, or twists, or slowly upping the ante to the climax,

On the contrary. It teaches you to do those things in very few words.

"Coming Home" is only 750 words. In those few words, I develop a character, his background, his suffering, romance, and a twist.

On the contrary. It teaches you to do those things in very few words.

"Coming Home" is only 750 words. In those few words, I develop a character, his background, his suffering, romance, and a twist.

That's a nice contrast to the typical SOL author who only writes a single story, covering 50 to 100+ chapters, each of which is often 10,000 to 20,000 words.

If you could boil those long extended stories down to a more manageable size, would they be better? That's a value judgement, of course, as many people like those stories because they're so expansive, but being able to be either expansive or concise as the situation dictates is a major skill for up-and-coming authors.

I agree.

Using Orson Scott Card's MICE Quotient, isn't flash fiction pretty much limited to being event-driven? There isn't room for world building, grand concepts or character development.

When it comes to events, flash fiction has no alternative but to launch straight into them, whereas novel length stories can build up expectation with foreshadowing and red herrings.

I think the lessons from learning to write flash fiction well are of limited value in writing longer stories, and vice versa.

AJ

I think the lessons from learning to write flash fiction well are of limited value in writing longer stories, and vice versa.

I can relate, despite my previous comments. I've never even attempted any flash fiction pieces simply because I can't imagine writing a 'limited' piece about a single event. I prefer building up to events, so readers are prepared for it when it arrives.

However, I also admire the few authors who's early struggles with arcane disciplines like poetry really seems to have paid off in their later novels. But that doesn't mean I can master those techniques myself.

As the saying that no one ever uttered says: Those that can do, those that can't merely admire from a distance while shaking their heads.

I won't disagree that it's hard to do well, but that doesn't mean that the ability to do it well will translate at all to writing better novels.

That observation, on my part, not Switch's, was that several of the all time 'Great' literary masters excelled at all three story forms, and it shows in their works.

The theory is, that mastering both short stories and, yes, poetry, which requires you to express sometimes complex issues within a set number of words of syllables, helps develop more concise writing (i.e. you become better adept at using simple sentences to express complex thoughts).

Granted, few of us will ever reach the level of those great masters, and there's no guarantee they wouldn't have been just as great without that previous training, but it's something those same authors have repeated stated about their own works.

Can you point to anything any of those authors wrote that would qualify as flash stories under the current definition?

Short stories, not flash.

Can you point to anything any of those authors wrote that would qualify as flash stories under the current definition?

'Flash fiction' is a recent construct, geared towards the 'immediate satisfaction' market and is largely focused in a contest framework. It's hardly conductive to works involving a great deal of work. It's more akin to 'Slam Poetry' events, where the entire challenge is to come up with something on the fly, whether it actually works or not is largely immaterial.

'Flash fiction' is a recent construct, geared towards the 'immediate satisfaction' market

Not according to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_fiction

Flash fiction is fictional work of extreme brevity[1] that still offers character and plot development. Identified varieties, many of them defined by word count, include the six-word story,[2] the 280-character story (also known as "twitterature"[3]), the "dribble" (also known as the "minisaga"; 50 words),[2] the "drabble" (also known as "microfiction"; 100 words),[2] "sudden fiction" (750 words),[4] flash fiction (1,000 words), nanotale,[5] and "micro-story".[6]

Some commentators have suggested that flash fiction possesses a unique literary quality, in its ability to hint at or imply a larger story.

History

Flash fiction has roots going back to prehistory, recorded at origin of writing, including fables and parables, notably Aesop's Fables in the west, and Panchatantra and Jataka tales in India. Later examples include the tales of Nasreddin, and Zen koans such as The Gateless Gate.

In the United States, early forms of flash fiction can be found in the 19th century, notably in the figures of Walt Whitman, Ambrose Bierce, and Kate Chopin.[9]

In the 1920s flash fiction was referred to as the "short short story" and was associated with Cosmopolitan magazine; and in the 1930s, collected in anthologies such as The American Short Short Story.[10]

William Somerset Maugham was a notable proponent, with his Cosmopolitans: Very Short Stories (1936) being an early collection.

"sudden fiction" (750 words)

I guess my "Coming Home" story isn't flash fiction, but sudden fiction.

The most famous six-word story is Hemingway's:

For sale: baby shoes, never worn.

You gotta admit that is powerful, and in only 6 words.

No, it's not.

Don't you feel the emotion? The anguish? The story behind those 6 words?

No.

That's too bad. I don't know what else to say about it.

For sale: baby shoes, never worn.

Making shoes out of babies should be illegal. And I bet the babies are kept in tiny cages so their skins don't get damaged.

AJ

I don't subscribe to the elitist "flash stories are an artform that is the highest achievement of literary mastery" if the Author can't write a story above 40k words.

In novels the goal is to create entire worlds, in short stories, it's merely to 'capture a moment', often out of context. If you use flash fiction (what a 'modern' name for 'extremely short stories'), the key is capturing a single moment, either of surprise of revelation. In novels, you're developing (hopefully) fully realized characters.

As such, both have skills which help authors in general. While you need fully realized characters, you also have to capture of 'feel' of the moment, lest you lost in while concentrating on what happens next.

I never read short stories for the simple reason that I read 3-5 hours a day and a multitude of different short stories would fry my brain. When you read as many hours as I do long stories are the only way.

A better approach might be to continue concentrating on the longer stories, but then set aside a set amount of time to dedicate to authors trying to master flash fiction. That would give you (hopefully) a better appreciation of it.

Some of us are lucky to be premier members and can read 100 stories a day. Finding 100 stories you want to read can be another challenge. But the member who didn't pony up the $69 gets 16 stories to read. If that were 16 Flash stories, what is he going to do with the other 23 hours in his day?

A valid justification for allowing readers to download a single 'compilation' of flash stories, maybe include a daily 'sampler' so the flash doesn't count as much with one's daily totals. But then again, I doubt that most typical readers would read flash fiction anyway, so it's likely a null point.

Therein lies the problem; I have problems getting through one story in three days (and heaven knows how long to read Roustwriter's current take on war and peace) so my other 47 possible stories are wasted. What would I do with 99 more stories?

Again, your best option is to simply avoid the SOL Main page, and head straight to the 'Series Updates" page, which typically features longer, continuing stories. It doesn't protect you from multiple-chapter stories of only 500 words each, but luckily, those are fairly rare on SOL.

show up as 5kb here.

My one and only flash fiction on SOL is 750 words. It's 4k. So another 200 words (to make it around 1,000) would be 5k.

Because this site uses an eight-bit-code, each character is one byte. If 200 words are 1kb then the average word-lenght is about 4 characters + a space, period, ...

Except that many of us include html codes for things like ellipses, so that breaks down your 'ever character is only a single byte' theory. While those extra characters don't shift the balance much in flash fiction, it does have an effect on longer stories, especially when you consider the number of different codes included. (Which is probably why SOL strips out any 'smart quotes', each of which is 16-bits).

LOAnnie wrote 200 words equal 1kb.

I've one item on SoL that's 198 words and it's 1 kb. However, I've another that's 60 kb for 11,966 words and another of 277,552 words for 1,458 kb. I'll let you guys do the mathematical work on the relative sizes, but keep in mind the last two are multiple chapter stories and I don't know how that affects the story size calculations.

The same as I've read good and bad long stories. Some authors may use short stories as learning steps on their way to write a long story. Luckily not all do, otherwise, most short stories would be pretty bad.

I think the key is to never think of it as 'something to learn', and to always put everything into every single piece you create so it'll stand up over time. Even the best authors have the occasional piece which either fails or simply never catches on, so the 'bad' is simply inevitable, the goal is, when everything comes together, that the quality of the author keeps readers from leaving in disgust over minor issues like typos and punctuation.

You are assuming something about it that it doesn't actually express.

I hate to mention it, but that's show don't tell. You get the reader involved.

I can think of more than half a dozen different contexts that could be imposed on it

And that demonstrates the difference between a story starter (eg for a writing exercise) and a story.

AJ

I can think of more than half a dozen different contexts that could be imposed on it,

Hence my bringing up show don't tell. To me, show don't tell isn't description. It's allowing the reader to come up with their own conclusion. To get them engaged in the story. Do it well and it will be the conclusion the author wants them to come up with.

No, the 6-word story isn't show don't tell. It's not even a story. But it hints at a story. And this one does it very well.

But it hints at a story. And this one does it very well.

I don't agree.

Once again, you refuse to admit that there's any point to any technique you didn't think or, or regularly utilize, yourself.

I don't mind that you don't employ the techniques that I discuss online, as that's never been my point, but it riles me that you routinely dismiss anything that anyone mentions as an absolute waste of YOUR time.

Some of like discussing techniques so we can become better authors, unlike you, who's always been a master of the craft since his very first sentence.

You've taken my comment way out of context. The disagreement I expressed is not over whether or not there is any point to any particular technique, but rather about whether or not the 6-word "story" actually implements any technique at all, much less implements it well.

Well, I agree with Switch on that issue, although I'd rephrase it, as it 'invokes', in the reader's minds, rather than tells a story. It reinforces the concept that authors frequently tell more by what they leave out of a story, than with what they include.

I don't disagree with that principle in general.

However, that principle must inherently have some kind of limiter or the ultimate story is a blank page, in which case, why are there authors at all?

In my opinion, flash stories in general an the 6-word story in particular push that principle far beyond any reasonable limit.

Now that's something we can both agree with.

It reinforces the concept that authors frequently tell more by what they leave out of a story, than with what they include.

I don't disagree with that principle in general.

That surprises me.

There's a strong argument for authors to go light on their descriptions. The aim is to engage the readers and make them think, "I would do the same in that situation," or "I'd like to go on a date with that character," or "I'd like to live there." The more detail an author includes, the greater their chance of hitting a characteristic a reader doesn't particularly like which stops them identifying with in the story.

However, coming from a scientific background, I can't see how less information can be more informative than more.

Perhaps you could furnish some examples.

AJ

The reader of a story will in there own mind fill in the things the author leaves out.

The reader might make reasonable assumptions but, for example, how is not mentioning an attractive woman character's bra size more informative than writing that she's a 36C?

AJ

Turn that around,

That doesn't address my issue.

how does the PoV character know her bra size so precisely?

Many possible answers. Omniscience, ability to read labels, bra-fitting expertise...

AJ

The cup size is actually based on the ratio between the band size (the under bust chest measurement possibly with some adjustment) to the over bust measurement (chest measurement across the widest/thickest part of the breast).

Difference, not ratio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bra_size

Stating a bra size gives the most accurate, concise description of breast size. If readers aren't familiar, at least approximately, with bra sizes, they can always google for images of that size.

I agree there's a lot more detail that could be added depending on context, some of which might dissuade readers from identifying with the owner. Caveat auctor!

I guess I'm not going to get any examples of 'frequently' :(

AJ

I personally use large, medium or small, leaving readers to use their own preconceptions But the issue here is whether something is informative.

AJ

I personally use large, medium or small, leaving readers to use their own preconceptions But the issue here is whether something is informative.

I prefer perky, bouncy, saggy or unappealing. Knowing one woman is a 38DDD and another is merely a 36DDD doesn't really matter. It's not an objective measurement! I'd rather know what's appealing about a woman, rather than someone quoting random figures out of a 'how to write porn scenes' manual.

I prefer comparative descriptions: handful, mouthful, half-lemon/orange/grapefruit/cantaloupe/watermelon, etc, and my personal favorite, fried egg. ;)

I prefer comparative descriptions:

I prefer the character saying:

"Ohmigod! You have— You're a girl!"

"Ohmigod! You have— You're a girl!"

Or perhaps ""Ohmigod! You don't have — You're a girl!" :)

Or perhaps ""Ohmigod! You don't have — You're a girl!"

You're not allowed to say that nowadays - the militant transgender lobby will launch Armageddon against you :(

AJ

Too bad if it makes them want to cry and throw a hissy fit - I'll say it anyway.

Turn that around, how does the PoV character know her bra size so precisely?

That's exactly the point of the adage, as having a character obsess about bra size tells the reader more about how little he actually knows and appreciates about women than anything he actually says.

Thinking that he can know everything worth knowing about someone by a wildly inaccurate store label paints his confidence as being merely empty bravado, setting him up for disaster when his romance can't keep his attention before he moves on to the next 'piece of tail'.

The reader might make reasonable assumptions but, for example, how is not mentioning an attractive woman character's bra size more informative than writing that she's a 36C?

That's really a bad example, because bra sizes is a strictly male fascination, because most women will tell you, they really don't reveal much at all.

Most women don't even know their actual bra size (i.e. they're actually wearing the wrong bra size because she can't figure out what her current size is). What's more, bra sizes are fluid, in that they change regularly over time. Breasts get larger during the menstrual cycle, vary depending on their current exercise level or even the weather (whether they can get outside and bike as much as they prefer).

In short, telling readers that someone is a 36C makes male readers think they know more, but it really doesn't capture anything about a character. It's relying on a yardstick to do the job of a poet, or more correctly, an inch ruler to do the job of a creative talent which spans the ages.

There's more data, but then there's merely pointless data for the sake of dumping something in to fill a spot. The key is knowing which information to include, and which to drop.

But the adage: a story tells more by what it leaves out than what it tells is actually quite specific. It doesn't mean you ignore essential plot points, but that you flavor the story with secrets, the very things a character is terrified of admitting to themselves, as a way of painting a picture of a deeply flawed character who's trying to make themselves into something they often aren't.

No, the 6-word story isn't show don't tell. It's not even a story. But it hints at a story. And this one does it very well.

Or, rather than either Telling or Showing, you prefer making the reader a part of the story by engaging them in the process, to invoking their curiosity without detailing exactly what happens.

That's the same thing authors do in foreshadowing. They don't 'spoil the ending', they merely get the reader engaged in possible directions the story may take as a way of engaging them, and to think of different motives the characters may have for doing something.

Once again, any foreshadowing that tells a reader exactly what's going to happen is a colossal failure!

But it has nothing to do with teaching or learning how to write longer novels better.

I agree 100%. It's only 6 words.

But writing real short stories teaches a writer how to be concise in their writing. Make every word count. Flash fiction is the extreme and not written very often. Short stories, on the other hand, are an art.