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Stories where writer strings the MC through pain - why?

seaotter 🚫
Updated:

I am reading Enough where the the MC can't get a break. I don't like the genre but because of cost sunk fallacy I am compelled to ride till the end.

I just want to ask writers, why this genre? Especially stories where it is a cycle to just beat down the MC, pick them up again and beat them down again.

Maybe it's just me, but I like stories with good (if not happy) endings. Even the rare BTB stories I read, I like those ones where the MC triumphs.

But bravo for keeping this reader sticking with the story so I can see some happiness in the end. Bad enough the real world is full of unhappiness.

End rant.

sunseeker 🚫
Updated:

@seaotter

for some reason your link didn't work for me so I put it here - https://storiesonline.net/n/25916/enough-by-rhiannon57

I haven't read this particular story yet so can't comment on it, but I have and usually do stop reading stories where the mc can't get a break, constantly has bad things happening to him, etc etc...prefer when more the mc's life is more balanced or when "good" prevails more than bad...

SunSeeker

Replies:   awnlee jawking  Dinsdale
awnlee jawking 🚫

@sunseeker

I've been following the story. Technically it's well-written, but IMO the protagonist is not particularly likeable. But despite all the problems he endures, his life isn't that bad.

Another potential example Rottweiler's Deja Vu stories. And (cough cough), I've been known to be pretty hard on my own protagonists.

AJ

Replies:   seaotter
seaotter 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Yeah the story is technically is good, it's just the wringing that is the one part of the story that grates me.

Yes put the MC through the wringer once or twice - I get that. But back to back to back to back? I am surprised he didn't check himself into a facility.

Dinsdale 🚫

@sunseeker

Looking at the link which did not work for you,
http://https//storiesonline.net/n/25916/enough-by-rhiannon57
Now, what could possibly be wrong with that?

Replies:   sunseeker
sunseeker 🚫
Updated:

@Dinsdale

That is plain as day but I don't see the 1st "http" when I mouse over it or clicking on it. Shoulda clued in to https//storiesonline.net/n/25916/enough-by-rhiannon57 which is what I saw but I didn't...

Replies:   Dinsdale
Dinsdale 🚫

@sunseeker

This discussion falls under "hijacking the thread" (and yes, I started it), but I'll reply once more: This is down to your browser, it is hiding information it has decided you do not need to know - specifically the "http://". Having stripped that information, it thinks the "https://" is part of the address. This is on a par with Windows hiding the ending on known data-types, so VirusFile.txt.com appears as VirusFile.txt unless you've changed that setting. At least the consequences here are not as severe.

Fick Suck 🚫

@seaotter

One of Kurt Vonnegut's enshrined rules: 6. Be a sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to themβ€”in order that the reader may see what they are made of.
The full text is here: https://lithub.com/kurt-vonneguts-greatest-writing-advice/

Replies:   Dinsdale  samuelmichaels
Dinsdale 🚫

@Fick Suck

Lumpy follows that principle in his https://storiesonline.net/series/1604/country-roads series, although the MC is winning through at this point. Pity about the collateral damage.
Now I'm thinking back to your classic https://storiesonline.net/universe/362/family-volentin universe where even Benni was not immune. As an aside, is it not possible to reorder those stories? 1,5,2,4,3 may not be the order you wrote them in but it makes sense reading them in that order.

Replies:   Fick Suck
Fick Suck 🚫

@Dinsdale

I ordered the stories in the order in which they should be read. The Benni trilogy is 1-3, Awanil is 4, and the last, which was testing ground for working out the world building.

samuelmichaels 🚫

@Fick Suck

The full text is here: https://lithub.com/kurt-vonneguts-greatest-writing-advice/

Thanks for the link. An interesting read, even if I don't agree with some of his advice.

seaotter 🚫

@seaotter

ack. copsy pasting with mobile - so things went wrong. apologies everyone.

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

@seaotter

I may not fully understand your question but in order to triumph you have to get knocked down.

If it's wish fulfilmment/mary sue where the MC has more wealth than they can ever imagine with more on the way, and they can wish anything into existence/all things are no challenge/barely an inconvenience then it's a yawnfest.

If in Indiana Jones, he didn't get beat up, dragged through the mud first, and he just walked up and defeated the bad guys without taking a punch, it wouldn't be as satisfying when he ultimately overcomes.

Pain is a crucible, which can make someone stronger, or break them entirely. It doesn't have to be physical, it can be stress/mental and those challenges are what (to me) make for a satisfying story.

To each their own.

Replies:   Paladin_HGWT
Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

If it's wish fulfilmment/mary sue where the MC has more wealthy than they can ever imagine with more on the way, and they can wish anything into existence/all things are no challenge/barely an inconvenience then it's a yawnfest.

If in Indiana Jones, he didn't get beat up, dragged through the mud first, and he just walked up and defeated the bad guys without taking a punch, it wouldn't be as satisfying when he ultimately overcomes.

Pain is a crucible, which can make someone stronger, or break them entirely. It doesn't have to be physical, it can be stress/mental and those challenges are what (to me) make for a satisfying story.

Using the Indian Jones series is not a good example, as they are movie-length omages to the 1930's through 50's matinee serials. So, they are "over the top" and have numerous "cliffhangers" and other tropes.

Beyond that specific criticism, I believe that it is not an all or nothing: life of Mary Sue vs. life of Job.

Challenges and threats are a spectrum, not an either / or. A story is almost certain to be challenging if there are no (or extremely low) stakes: "Will the character be able to get a piece of bubble gum." (However, getting a package of Twinkies well into a Zombie Apocalypse...) So too, a Gary Stu who can "triumph" over any challenge with seemingly no effort nor preparation.

Now, on occasion, I may enjoy a "Slice of Life" story, with no particular challenges, nor stakes. Such as the MC is baking a pie and hopes to win a ribbon (not even the Blue Ribbon) at the county fair. Relaxed pace "Feel Good" stories can be a nice break from the troubles of the world. I enjoy food, and typically enjoy considerable description of meals, and sometimes even their preparation. I am not alone in enjoying this type of story. Besides slice of life stories, there are popular sub-genres of both Mysteries and Romance novels that have food/cooking as a key element of those stories.

While I might enjoy a non-challenging "feel good" story on occasion, I have no interest in the opposite end of the spectrum. My life might not be terrible, but I have more than my "fair share" of pain and trouble; as do my friends, those who are still alive. Like most people, I enjoy when a Villian or antagonist suffers a comeuppance; I don't want to watch, nor read about a crapsack world!

I do enjoy some survival or triumph over adversity stories, even if the MC is the sole survivor, or one of the few to escape from a plane crash, ship sinking, nuclear war, or the beginning of a zombie apocalypse, even if many other people, perhaps billions, died horribly. If the story focuses upon the survivors, I can enjoy the story. Sometimes, for reasons of plot, important characters must get hurt, or even die. But I don't enjoy a "Ten Little Indians" trope (each of the characters die off one-by-one).

I don't know which I hate more, characters who consistently fail to take obvious precautions; or an author who has a story where even well-made and executed plans always fail. I know: "the best laid plans o' Mice an Men, aft gay aglee." I don't expect constant success, nor total success. I do expect a well-conceived plan, decently executed should be "rewarded"; even if things don't go according to plan, or if a villain/threat, even the forces of nature, overcome the plans of the MC; as long as things occurred logically. I don't enjoy an author who Diabolically schemes to destroy everything the MC does, or that another enjoys the fruit of the MC's labors.

In those stories it is the Villian who is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

I prefer stories that have a variety of challenges, they don't have to be "life or death" they could be rather mundane, but still have a significant consequence. A student falsely accused of cheating; they are not expelled, merely given an F on that one test. But, that one test could bring down their overall grade from an A to a B, and thus they won't be able to get into Harvard; or won't get a scholarship. Sure, they could go to State U, or find other ways to pay for a decent education. High stakes for a high school student; but not life or death.

Pain is a crucible, which can make someone stronger, or break them entirely. It doesn't have to be physical, it can be stress/mental

I was a soldier for 28 years. In addition to my own experiences, I studied my profession extensively, including matters of Leadership and the psychological issues that often afflict soldiers. There is considerable evidence that people have a "well of courage" few people have very much. Some have more than others. What appears to be "Acts of Courage" are sometimes merely desperation, or a misunderstanding of the stakes, of foolishness. Often, some soldiers fear letting down their comrades, or being seen as a coward, so they act courageous. Even a truly heroic person is (nearly) certain to be ground down by repeated tests of that courage.

Both LTC Grossman and S.L.A. Marshall state that the "Well of Courage" is finite. It is supposed that it may be replenished, but that is not certain. "Fatigue equals Fear" and constant draining of energy will make a person more vulnerable to fear. Also, fear, either intense bursts of terror, or prolonged concern (such as being relatively safe in a well-constructed trench during a barrage; or hours on patrol, uncertain when you might be ambushed or killed by a sniper) will drain a person of physical energy (making them more vulnerable to fear).

The USMC has its week long "Crucible" and the US Navy SEALs have "Hell Week" US Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, various nations SAS, or Russian Spetsnaz" all have similar prolonged tests of those who aspire to become one of their members. If it was of similar intensity for a year, or even a month, no one, or at least too few to be a viable formation, would ever pass the test.

During my military career I accomplished a number of challenges, attending Airborne School to become a paratrooper, Recondo, SERE (Survival Evasion Resistance & Escape), Amphibious Warfare, etc. At first, I was surprised by the number of men, stronger, faster, more agile, smarter, etc. than me who

Quit!

But I also served alongside many men, and a few women, who were much better soldiers, Marines, sailors, than I was. I have a bunch of medals and other awards; most significant to me the CIB (Combat Infantryman's Badge). I have accomplished my duties while under hostile fire; I have advanced against enemies shooting at me. I am humble for I have served alongside individuals who earned Silver Stars, other awards, I know some men who are recipients of the Medal of Honor. Even those remarkable individuals have breaking points.

Stories that exceed such capacities (almost always) cause me to stop reading. Conan or James Bond stories suffer from escalating stakes. The author/script writer feels they must make the next challenge much greater than previous challenges. To me it just becomes ridiculous! I prefer a story where the "Warrior-King" has defeated a more powerful foe by battle prowess / Allies / a Magical Sword, whatever. The next enemy doesn't need to be more powerful. Instead, a drought or a horde of locusts threaten, or a trade deal must be negotiated, or other challenges that the MC is not as well prepared to deal with are interesting.

as seaotter said, "To each their own."

Replies:   samuelmichaels
samuelmichaels 🚫

@Paladin_HGWT

The next enemy doesn't need to be more powerful. Instead, a drought or a horde of locusts threaten, or a trade deal must be negotiated, or other challenges that the MC is not as well prepared to deal with are interesting.

Thank you! An excellent way to avoid power creep.

Dicrostonyx 🚫

@seaotter

Put simply, happily ever after is the end of the story. If the protagonist doesn't have anything to struggle against, there's not story to tell.

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@Dicrostonyx

Exactly right. That is fine if you are only writing a short stroke story, but if you are writing anything longer there should be some struggle involved.

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