Forum: Author Hangout

While GPS has pretty much become the universal navigation source (which is a scary thought because how many still knows how to navigate without GPS ...)

but I was going to mention that your nextgen link wasn't about GPS, but about ADS-B ...

but I was going to mention that your nextgen link wasn't about GPS, but about ADS-B ...

Try reading a little closer.

An ADS-B Out transmitter alone is not sufficient to meet the requirements of 14 CFR 91.225 and 91.227. Aircraft must be equipped with a Version 2 ADS-B Out transmitter and a compatible GPS position source. There are two types of ADS-B systems available:

Thank you, for proving my point ... a single ref to a generic GPS within an FAA statement regarding the needed ADS-B equipment to meet CFR standards ...

which is a scary thought because how many still knows how to navigate without GPS ...

Navigating by mark-1 eyeball and landmarks is still a required skill for certified pilots.

still a required skill for certified pilots.

Which is promptly put aside the moment the test is over.
How many of those pilots could actually use it in an emergency?
If nothing else, it would be like any other skill, if it's not practiced, it goes away.

Which is promptly put aside the moment the test is over.

Are you really suggesting that experienced pilots lose the ability to see out the cockpit window?

They might not be able to determine exactly where they are, but they can certainly orient the plane to and/or follow landmarks they can see on the ground.

Are you really suggesting that experienced pilots lose the ability to see out the cockpit window?

They might not be able to determine exactly where they are, but they can certainly orient the plane to and/or follow landmarks they can see on the ground.

No, you are twisting what I said.

You can play word games all you wish, but reality says if a person doesn't practice a skill set, they eventually lose the ability to use it.

It doesn't mean they go blind. Flying VFR requires more than just the ability to see.

It can be equated to driving long distances with maps only. There are people these days that have driven into the ocean because their GPS said it was the way to go. Never mind the physical evidence in front of their eyes.

No, you are twisting what I said.

You are twisting what I said.

There are people these days that have driven into the ocean because their GPS said it was the way to go.

A very small number of cases in a very large pool of cars with GPS. Such a small number of cases that it doesn't prove anything.

Again, I'm not saying they would be able navigate precisely or that it would be preferable to using the full instrumentation.

That said, I seriously doubt that there are a significant number of certified pilots who would so lost they would allow the plane to crash if their navigational instruments failed but the flight controls still worked.

That said, I seriously doubt that there are a significant number of certified pilots who would so lost they would allow the plane to crash if their navigational instruments failed but the flight controls still worked.

I don't think any sane pilot would "allow" any such thing.
It's not a question of allow, it's a question of getting the craft down safely.

A very small number of cases in a very large pool of cars with GPS. Such a small number of cases that it doesn't prove anything.

If even one person dies due to that, it proves everything I've said.
It's not just cars either. It applies to boats and any other means of powered transportation other than rail.

When conditions change, experience is what saves their ass. Without that experience, it's a crap shoot.

Or are you making the case that VFR experience is pointless?

If even one person dies due to that, it proves everything I've said.

Yeah, the problem is proving that they died due to that, that they wouldn't have had the same stupid accident without the GPS.

Similar kinds of crashes happened before GPS due to inattentive driving.

The only thing that's changed is that now they blame the GPS for it.

If you're looking for proof, your're shit out of luck, for either side of the argument.

So it comes down to common(?) sense. Something that is definitely subjective.

There are people these days that have driven into the ocean because their GPS said it was the way to go. Never mind the physical evidence in front of their eyes.

Exactly, they are stupid.
Most pilots aren't (although with the large number of people that are pilots, even a small percentage makes for a significant number that are stupid).
Even so- there is a somewhat higher level of training involved just to get a basic pilots license compared to that for getting a drivers licence.

And the other major difference is that GPS units for aircraft use don't rely on Google maps for their mapping data- the data used to produce the maps is specifically for aviation use, as are the maps produced.

Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball is only good low level and feet dry. Not so good at high alt or oceanic or polar routes ...

Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball is only good low level and feet dry. Not so good at high alt or oceanic or polar routes ...

Which is why they can't be done under VFR and must be done under IFR.

Which is why they can't be done under VFR and must be done under IFR.

What about OMGMIHFR?

Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball is only good low level and feet dry. Not so good at high alt or oceanic or polar routes ...

Not saying it would be preferable, just that it can be done if all other navigation aids have failed.

And high alt by itself shouldn't be that much of a problem. The problem would be weather.

And high alt by itself shouldn't be that much of a problem. The problem would be weather.

"Always go IFR if .. in weather, above clouds, on O2/above 10K."

First 2 means unable to see landmarks or see/avoid other aircraft or edges of space.

Last because you've entered realm where in general airspeeds are higher, and glare is more intense; actually reducing available recognition and 'see/avoid' times. "Smart pilots/old pilots" accept Center's help ...

Last because you've entered realm where in general airspeeds are higher, and glare is more intense; actually reducing available recognition and 'see/avoid' times. "Smart pilots/old pilots" accept Center's help ...

Again, it's not about what is smart or what is prefereable, but what is possible.

Since on the internet, everyone is an expert, it would be interesting if people who reply would state their certification - student, private, commercial, ATP, and your ratings.

No, that would just illicit a round of people calling bullshit with no means of proving claims.
Since on the internet, everyone is a fighter pilot.

If you have a lot of pie you may make a pie lot. Or maybe a pilot.

Well as concepts go, it seems reasonable enough.... I'll actually will have to try to remember it.

In 1938, it made good sense, because railroad tracks went somewhere.

Now, a surprising number have been abandoned and dead end in the boondocks. You could find yourself at an abandoned quarry or at the old factory (you know, the one what burnt down back in '44).

You can find a lot of these on Google Earth.

Google Earth

https://beebom.com/google-earth-alternatives/#:~:text=You%20Can%20Use-,Top%204%20Google%20Earth%20Alternatives%20You%20Can%20Use,-Arjun%20Sha%20%2D%20Last

If it's civilization your're looking for, following water is the best option. Along a coast, or river, there will be towns and cities. Once you have that, you have roads and everything else civilization.