In setting the scene for a new story that will inevitably never see the light of day, I used the verb 'posh'. But when I checked for its existence in a dictionary or ten - not a sign.
I eventually managed to find corroboration that it exists/existed, but I imagine virtually nobody here will be familiar with it. So, just to satisfy my curiosity, how many readers know what it means, and how many don't have a clue?
AJ
You need a better dictionary... :)
Posh
adjective
elegant or stylishly luxurious: a posh hotel.
adverb
in a refined or upper-class way: he may talk posh, but there is nothing fancy about Basil.
noun [mass noun]
the quality of being elegant, stylish, or upper class: we finally bought a colour TV, which seemed the height of posh.
verb [with object] (posh someone/something up)
smarten someone or something up: we will be getting all poshed up for the company summer ball.
You need a better dictionary... :)
What she said.
Also, a member of the Spice Girls - Posh Spice aka Victoria Beckham.
verb [with object] (posh someone/something up)
I realise I'm probably coming across as a smartarse, but that's actually not the meaning I was looking for.
AJ
I realise I'm probably coming across as a smartarse,
Not the first time you've cum across my ass…
:)
verb [with object] (posh someone/something up)
smarten someone or something up: we will be getting all poshed up for the company summer ball.
Ahem. This is referring to the verb, to posh up. The is no verb just to posh.
Oh, that we wrote English like the Germans write German.
Would have recognized it as an adjective, but no clue as a verb! Cool. Learned something new!
Even Wiktionary has an entry:
Verb
posh (third-person singular simple present poshes, present participle poshing, simple past and past participle poshed)
(normally in the phrasal verb posh up) To make posh, or posher.
Synonym: poshen
HM.
I checked for its existence in a dictionary or ten - not a sign
Just google "posh definition" and it will give you the definition and also links to many dictionaries that have it, such as, dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster.
I never knew it was a verb. I know it as "elegant" as in a posh hairdo.
Since you're British, one definition in the U.K. is it's like the upper class.
Just for reference, "define:posh" will do exactly the same thing. Most people will use one or the other and don't need to know both, but it's worth noting.
Refers to a time of sea travel when the British rich chose cabins that were in the shade when travelling to India. Port Out, Starboard Home. Hence posh = rich.
Refers to a time of sea travel when the British rich chose cabins that were in the shade when travelling to India. Port Out, Starboard Home. Hence posh = rich.
Whilst that origin is often quoted there is in fact no proof that is the source of the word and several uses that predate it.
posh was once slang for a dandy (a man unduly concerned with looking stylish and fashionable)
Thanks. You brought back some old, but happy, memories. I once dated a girl from Wales back when I was a relatively innocent kid. She, on the other hand, was anything but innocent. She taught me a lot about women and especially, the difference between love and having fun. When I was reassigned to the states, we broke it off and she remarked that we could never work out because I was too posh for her. I asked her what she meant and she said, "You say things like 'isn't it' when you should talk like normal people and say 'Innit'." I never knew it was that easy to be posh.
I asked her what she meant and she said, "You say things like 'isn't it' when you should talk like normal people and say 'Innit'.
Look on the bright side, she could have said; "Because you get out of the bath before you pee."
The message I'm getting loud and clear is that I can't use the verb 'posh' in my story because nobody here will know what it means.
The way I used it, it means to forcibly squash, flatten or squeeze. You might posh a molehill with the back of a spade, for example. From it is derived the term 'poshing stick', a washday staple from before my time.
Thanks for all your replies.
AJ
From it is derived the term 'poshing stick',
Ah yes. "You can posh a stick to water, but you can't make it sink."
The way I used it, it means to forcibly squash, flatten or squeeze. You might posh a molehill with the back of a spade, for example
Interesting. I've always associated 'posh' with money- Posh gits being rich gits. Which made me wonder if you were getting confused with 'Bosh' as in to bosh someone over the back of the head (with a stick or shovel). However when I Googled Bosh, it says the definition of 'Bosh' is nonsense/rubbish....
So I am now putting it down to regional dialect that is correct for the area but unknown to the rest of the outside world. A bit like Glaswegians...
Bash
Bash is a Unix shell and command language written by Brian Fox for the GNU Project as a free software replacement for the Bourne shell. First released in 1989
That's "bash."
No not really, like I said, Regional variations. Think Biff , bash, bosh, (or 'Bish, bash, bosh' depending) which has multiple connotations depending on the context in which it's used.
So I am now putting it down to regional dialect that is correct for the area but unknown to the rest of the outside world.
I strongly suspect Yorkshire ;-)
AJ
I strongly suspect Yorkshire ;-)
Especially since posh (v) is listed in the glossary in this page, and this one.
Thank you, that's very interesting. Water seems to be a necessity in the second reference, but that's not my understanding. In the term 'poshing-stick', the implement is perpetrating the violence, not the water.
Oh well, it's academic in the current circumstances because it's clear I shouldn't use it.
AJ
Oh well, it's academic in the current circumstances because it's clear I shouldn't use it.
Use it..!!
But have another character ask WTF? so it is explained as Yorkshire slang.
:)
(Exits stage left muttering "On Ilkla Mooar baht 'at".)
Weirdly, I would have understood a reference to a poshing stick, but not to 'posh' as the action. Posh was a well dressed man with manicured hands, long before a skeletal mime adopted it as half her stage name.
A bunch of people signed up for a trip where they would be taught how to stand and sit properly in fields surrounding various English Manors.
It was the Pasture Posture Posh Tour. :)
So, just to satisfy my curiosity, how many readers know what it means, and how many don't have a clue?
As in a specific definition, no clue before this thread. In a general sense, rich, well heeled, well built, extravagant etc. I think the readers would easily recognize the general sense, but specifics? Not likely.
I knew Port Outgoing... but not the bit about shade. To me, an 80yo California WASP, posh means upper class implying way more money than I have.
I knew Port Outgoing... but not the bit about shade.
The shade thing is dubious in so much as it only applies to a part of the voyage.
Another more practical reason is to enjoy a view of the land, rather than just open sea.
Neither applies to the entire voyage though.
Several sources I checked all say that there is no actual evidence for the Port Out Starboard Home origin.
Dictionary.com has this:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/posh
Posh, as slang for "money," first appears in English in the 18th century as a variant of push. Back in the 15th century, the Romani people arrived from India to the United Kingdom. The Romany also adopted English words and customs, like the currency of half-shillings, half-pennies, and so on. The word for half in Romany is posh, and its relation to cash gave it the connotation of money.
From there, so this explanation goes, posh became thieves' slang for money in the London underworld in the early 19th century. One early instance of posh to mean "money" comes from oral testimony in criminal proceedings in London's Central Criminal Court in 1830. It was not a term yet used by the upper class as it would later come to describe.
Posh, as "money," may have led to posh as "fancy," though this etymology is uncertain. One of the earliest printed examples of posh to mean "fancy" comes from P.G. Wodehouse's Tales of St. Austin's (1903) where a spiffy waistcoat is described as "quite the most push thing of the sort of Cambridge," with posh apparently intended for push.
Posh as "fancy" was popularized by the Royal Armed Forces during World War I. It inspired countless derivations, such as posh up to mean "to make something fancier," all poshed up to mean "dressed up," and do the posh to mean "to spend lavishly".
This makes sense to me. There is actual evidence for posh as slang for money that predates the supposed Port out/Starboard Home, and it makes sense that it might make the jump from a slang term for money to meaning rich and/or expensive.
It is wise to avoid confusing the word posh with the acronym POSH. There is ample evidence that the word predates the acronym. Even if the origins are disputed. POSH has long been accepted as "Port Out, Starboard Home," and has been widely used so it's existence is indisputable.
When talking to acquaintances who enjoy cruise ships they often talk about the "best" cabins to book and often which side is considered to afford better views on a specific route.
POSH has long been accepted as "Port Out, Starboard Home," and has been widely used so it's existence is indisputable.
From the same dictionary.com link I posted above.
According to folk etymology, posh is an acronym for Port Out, Starboard Home. This myth from the 1930s says that rich people booking steamer trips staying in the nicer, round-trip cabins would have P.O.S.H. stamped on their tickets. After decades of searching, there's never been any evidence such a practice ever existed.
And from Mirriam Webster:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/posh-history-and-meaning
I was looking up the etymology of 'posh', and you say its origin is unknown, but you're wrong. Everybody knows 'posh' stands for "port out, starboard home."
Supposedly, 'posh' stands for "port out, starboard home." There's only one problem—we have no evidence to back that story up.
For those who don't know the story, here it is: on ocean voyages between Britain and India, the most desirable cabins—the ones that didn't get the afternoon heat—were on the port side out and on the starboard side home. These luxury tickets were supposedly stamped with the letters POSH: posh.
This is a great story. It's tidy, it's historical, and it conjures up pictures of women in bustles and skirts swooning onboard ships. And it's an acronym! Who doesn't love an acronym! Great story! But that's all it appears to be.
It's not that we don't like this etymology—it's that we have no evidence for it. We have seen no tickets stamped with POSH; we've found no magazine articles talking about this fashionable mode of travel. Here's what we have found: posh entered the English language early in the 1900s, in a wholly un-nautical context, to mean "smart" and "stylish." Try though we might, we can't find any definitive information on its origins.
But if you find an old transoceanic ticket in your attic that's stamped "POSH," let us know.
The existence of the POSH acronym is very disputable.
The existence of the POSH acronym is very disputable.
As JoyR said, it exists. Its origins are disputable. Perhaps someone with an up-to-date browser could look up 'Port Out Starboard Home' on Google ngrams.
ETA - despite its probable mythological origin, P&O used it in their advertising in the 1960s, thus legitimising it.
AJ
As JoyR said, it exists. Its origins are disputable.
The word posh exists. as both articles ( dictionary.com and https://www.merriam-webster.com) state, after decades of searching, no one has yet turned up a surviving steamship ticket stamped POSH nor has anyone turned up any period mention of the Port Home Starbord Out as a practice in passenger steamships.
There is no evidence of Port Out Starboard Home a passenger ship practice, or POSH as an acronym having been used in the time period it's supposedly from.
The existence of the POSH acronym is very disputable.
Are you sure you want to dispute its existence when it appears in a number of dictionaries? No to mention it's use by various authors, etc.
Please, go ahead.
:)
No to mention it's use by various authors, etc.
It's use in fiction is meaningless.
That isn't evidence that is was actually used in real steamship passenger service.
Come up with some actual period (early 20th century) evidence of non fiction use or admit that it's basically an urban legend.
That isn't evidence that is was actually used in real steamship passenger service.
Ok, so when you claimed it didn't exist, you meant that it wasn't actually used "in a real steamship passenger service".
It's use in fiction is meaningless."
If used in say science fiction, then yes, I agree. But when used in a story and with no explanation necessary, it is obvious that the author expects the reader to know the acronym and it's meaning. When such is the case then 'popular use' is just as valid as 'printed on a ticket'.
Also
You quoted Miriam-Webster " One of the earliest printed examples of posh to mean "fancy" comes from P.G. Wodehouse's Tales of St. Austin's (1903)" so they, and presumably you DO consider use in fiction to have meaning. Why else would you have quoted it?
Ok, so when you claimed it didn't exist, you meant that it wasn't actually used "in a real steamship passenger service".
Yes, it's a unicorn/urban-legend. The acronym use of it is purely fictional.
You quoted Miriam-Webster " One of the earliest printed examples of posh to mean "fancy" comes from P.G. Wodehouse's Tales of St. Austin's (1903)" so they, and presumably you DO consider use in fiction to have meaning. Why else would you have quoted it?
That quote is from dictionary.com, not Miriam-Webster.
Relevant is 100% dependent on what it's being used for.
It's not being used as support for either POSH as an acronym generally, or the Port Out Starboard Home meaning specifically.
Evidence to support that alleged origin would need to come from non-fiction sources, because the alleged origin specifically claims it as a real world practice.
It's not being used as support for either POSH as an acronym generally, or the Port Out Starboard Home meaning specifically.
You are again confusing the word and the acronym.
You agree that fictional use is valid for the word, yet deny fictional use is valid for the acronym. Again, I'd agree if it was a science fiction story, but PGW stories are not science fiction. The terms and phrases used are contemporary to the story.
As AJ pointed out, it was used by P&O in the 60's so it isn't an urban myth. I suppose you could claim it was an urban myth before P&O used it. But before making such a claim you should consider WHY they used it. Why use an unknown term to promote your cruise liner? Obviously because your target audience already know what it means. Therefore it was common knowledge prior to its use by P&O in the 60's.
Exactly when it was first used isn't germaine. The fact is that at least in the UK it was used and its meaning generally understood.
As AJ pointed out, it was used by P&O in the 60's so it isn't an urban myth.
He pointed out that they used it in advertising. Unless they actually sold Port Out Starboard Home tickets, that would only be a reference to the urban legend and doesn't make it not an urban legend.
Therefore it was common knowledge prior to its use by P&O in the 60's.
An urban legend being well known and/or old doesn't make it not an urban legend.
Everyone in the US knows who/what Bigfoot is. That doesn't make Bigfoot real.
Everyone in the US knows who/what Bigfoot is. That doesn't make Bigfoot real.
You mean everyone 'thinks' they know what it is. Without physical proof, as in a body, it will forever remain a myth. Especially in the age of home video editing software.
You are again confusing the word and the acronym.
Exactly when it was first used isn't germaine.
It's germane to the question of whether P.O.S.H was the origin of 'posh', meaning ostentatiously lavish.
Unless someone can unearth references from early travelogue literature (which many have tried and failed), the balance of evidence is against that.
AJ
I believe you would be looking for evidence far to late in history if you limit yourself to steamships ...
I'd have to go back and reread a lot of early nautical history or nautical fiction regarding the era from 1600 to 1834, especially in reference to "the Honourable John Company" ships sailing between the UK and India and the East Indies. You'd have to look at their archives in the British library. But do I seem to recall seeing that anecdote in a number of the nautical books from my youth. Europeans have been visiting India, the East Indies and Asia since the 1400s. First were the Portuguese who tried to keep it secret as long as they could, then the Spanish who were lead by Magellan and his surviving crew to boot the Portuguese out of the Philippines but failed in Japan ...
Then everybody joined the party - the Dutch, the Danes, the Swedes and finally the English, each grabbing some bit of territory or just plain pirating other nations merchant ships. Started by Drake and the Golden Hind, but exploding after Sir Walter Raleigh's capture of the Madre de Dues ...
For more than two centuries, "John Company" ships sailed between India and UK, before steamships. Initially, down around the Cape of Good Hope and across the Indian Ocean. Later, passenger vessels shortened the trip by going across the IO, up the Red Sea, land transfer in Egypt, another vessel to cross the Med, thru Gib and up to Merry England. The POSH portions would have been the IO, Red Sea and Med portions.
I believe you would be looking for evidence far to late in history if you limit yourself to steamships ...
No, the earlier sail based ships were a lot smaller with a lot fewer cabins in each ship. A nautical origin to POSH from the age of sail is far less likely.
Europeans have been visiting India, the East Indies and Asia since the 1400s.
The POSH story cites to dedicated passenger ships.
As far as I can find any reference for ( https://www.cruiselinehistory.com/history-of-cruising-and-travel-by-passenger-ship/ ) the earliest dedicated oceanic passenger ships only go back to the 19th century and the development of steam powered paddle wheel ships.
Passenger travel by ship in the age of sail would have been largely devoid of luxury even for the very wealthy.
The one thing I don't see any disagreement on is that the term originated in the UK. Most people recognize the term to be synonymous with rich/affluent/fancy. Arguing over the specific origins is pointless after that for the purposes of the OP questions.
how many readers know what it means, and how many don't have a clue?
The one thing I don't see any disagreement on is that the term originated in the UK.
Well, that's one way of provoking an argument. I'm not sure the subject has even been discussed.
If P.O.S.H originated on ships travelling to he Indian subcontinent, a rich source of additions to the English language, you could argue that the term didn't originate in the UK itself, and may well not have been the brainchild of a British citizen.
Is this a five minute argument or do you want the full half-hour? ;-)
AJ
Is this a five minute argument or do you want the full half-hour? ;-)
You kicked this one off in the OP, so have at it.
You kicked this one off in the OP, so have at it.
The purpose of my original post has been fulfilled so I have no axe to grind.
AJ
The acronym use of it is purely fictional.
It is, from all evidence (or lack thereof) a 'backronym'.
Rearrange the letters P O S H and get S H O P. Lots of women like to shop. Depending on what you are shopping for, men like to shop as well. Cars, boats, expensive toys, girls, games, not just clothing. Watching girls try on underwear can also be fun. Posh people like to shop for things they like.
Posh people like to shop for things they like.
Posh women like to shop for dresses to wear to hops.
AJ
While we all seem to agree on the word 'posh' meaning rich or affluent or from the upper crust of society - depending upon the context, why is it that the word 'posh' in the term 'pish posh' has a totally different meaning.
BTW: I've only ever heard the word 'posh' used by the English or descendants of English people.
BTW: I've only ever heard the word 'posh' used by the English or descendants of English people.
I wouldn't call it common, but it shows up in the US occasionally.
"Is Posh an American word?
Posh has been used in the U.S. for decades, of course, but, until the mid-1990s, at roughly half the rate as in Britain and chiefly without the ironic or sardonic connotation noted by the OED. ... Google Ngram showing nearly 100 percent rise in American use of "posh" between 1996 and 2009.May 16, 2011"
but, until the mid-1990s, at roughly half the rate as in
What part of "I wouldn't call it common" did you not understand?
What part of "I wouldn't call it common" did you not understand?
What I reported indicated it is more common in Britain than in the United States but is becoming more common here in the USA. A 100% rise in its use probably means it is becoming more common. Based on this SOL forum, its use is definitely now "common".
"Essential Meaning of common
1: belonging to or shared by two or more people or groups
They have a common ancestor.
The people on the island have a sense of common identity.
See More Examples
2: done by many people
It is common practice for one town's fire department to help another town when there is a big fire.
a common spelling mistake
3: occurring or appearing frequently : not rare
a common [=widespread] disease
Buffalo were once a common [=familiar] sight on the American plains."
Based on definition 3, it is not rare.
In some senses, 'posh' and 'common' are antonyms ;-)
When I was at school, we used to pronounce 'posh' as having a long 'o' - a posh pronunciation of posh.
AJ
why is it that the word 'posh' in the term 'pish posh' has a totally different meaning.
I found an interesting take on the subject, ascribing two etymologies, one of which is Indian in origin.
AJ
Pished posh are likely to say things such as 'Let them eat cake'.
Nay, pished posh are likely to have gotten that way due to imbibing way too much chardonnay, hic.
@Radagast
Pished posh are likely to say things such as 'Let them eat cake'.
Nay, pished posh are likely to have gotten that way due to imbibing way too much chardonnay, hic.
Someone spiked the chardonnay with THC and now they have the munchies. :)
why is it that the word 'posh' in the term 'pish posh' has a totally different meaning
I don't know, but I'd guess that pish-posh arose as alliteration for the sounds made in using a dolly-stick (a poshing stick); who knows, maybe posh (to drub vigorously in water with such a stick) arose from this alliteration.
Administering last rites to this zombie thread:
I think AJ is misremembering slightly (or he's remembering a slightly mis-pronounced local usage) and the correct spelling is poss. I'll briefly run through my route to this:
There is a combined goods/passenger rail line close by, and looking at the schedule for engineering test trains I saw a location I didn't know well - Crag Hall signal box. A quick search didn't net me a location, so a deeper dive was required. Looking for photos of it, a few showed up on a local history site and wandering round that site (looking for pictures which might show my old house) I spotted a picture which explicitly showed a poss in use - search for 'washday' on this page.
ETA: Found the signal box, I have seen it in the past, here's a Google Street view.
the correct spelling is poss.
Thank you, I wondered whether that might be the case. 'posh' was not necessarily an error but possibly a regional colloquial variant.
AJ
When teaching languages, schools unfortunately don't teach slang. I heard "posh" a lot when I was stationed in England. When I accidentally said "shag" when I meant "snog", I got my face slapped. Similarly, in Mexico, I tried to tell a girl that she was always teasing (chistar) her friends. Sadly, I said chingar instead of chistar and she ran away crying. I guess that's why, in third grade, Mrs. Kniesley insisted that we never use slang.
by chance is your dictionary an abridged dictionary ? Many home dictionaries and even school room dictionaries are abridged.
Posh would easily be a word that is excluded from a dictionary that has been abridged.
abridged = to be shortened or condensed especially by the omission of words or passages.
by chance is your dictionary an abridged dictionary ?
Actually I did check in my dictionary but I checked a load of online dictionaries as well. I would expect the latter were abridged versions with the full versions behind a paywall.
AJ