Forum: Author Hangout

When I read stuff which is that ludicrous, I often take a look at the setup of the site carrying the story and it usually (always?) turns out to be a case of "lying jerks with an agenda".
At this moment in time I have better things to do than checking that site out.

When I read stuff which is that ludicrous, I often take a look at the setup of the site carrying the story and it usually (always?) turns out to be a case of "lying jerks with an agenda".

How about something from the official site of the Washington Office Of Superintendent Of Public Instruction?

https://www.k12.wa.us/sites/default/files/public/socialstudies/pubdocs/Math%20SDS%20ES%20Framework.pdf

SWBAT analyze the ways in
which ancient mathematical
knowledge has been
appropriated by Western culture.
● SWBAT identify how the
development of mathematics
has been erased from learning in
school.
● SWBAT identify how math has
been and continues to be used
to oppress and marginalize
people and communities of
color

SWBAT explain how math and
technology and/or science are
connected and how technology
and/or science have been and
continues to be used to oppress
and marginalize people and
communities of color.
● SWBAT critique systems of
power that deny access to
mathematical knowledge to
people and communities of
color.
● SWBAT identify the inherent
inequities of the standardized
testing system used to oppress
and marginalize people and
communities of color.
● SWBAT explain how math has
been used to exploit natural
resources
● SWBAT explain how math
dictates economic oppression

Those are all high level social studies for a specific Math Ethnics Studies course, not in actual math classes

Those are all high level social studies

High level social studies my ass. It's K-12 curriculum.

And why would they be teaching "Math Ethnics Studies" for K-12?

Yes, cause Washington doesn't separate curriculum by grade band, doesn't mean it will be taught in all 13 grades.

Many schools have elective classes that can be designed by someone passionate about a subject. A place like Seattle might have teachers that have post-grad degrees and want to be able to educate students on a diverse variety of topics.

Yes, cause Washington doesn't separate curriculum by grade band, doesn't mean it will be taught in all 13 grades.

Where/when I went to school, the history of mathematics didn't get covered at all below college level.

Why the fuck are they talking about it at that level and in that way, even if it's only intended for grades 9-12?

And that comes down to the basics of the fact that it's not a math history course (which would be taught by a math department), but an ethnic studies course.

Look at frameworks for other subjects, standards usually have grade levels attached, this has nothing. This is basically the start of a guide that can be used to create a class, but with no actual class created to teach it. It's the first step in a much longer process.

It's the first step in a much longer process.

It's the first step in a process that will go nowhere good.

So, to be honest, some of that is 'silly', to my way of thinking. But, a lot of things are.

Nothing whatsoever in that unit says '2x2=4' is racist.

Virtually none of that is 'math' at all, but 'social studies'. For instance, 'SWBAT identify how the development of mathematics has been erased from learning in school' is an interesting topic. Math is math, regardless of who developed it, but how many students know where and by whom major concepts were developed?

'SWBAT identify how math has been and continues to be used to oppress and marginalize people and communities of color' and 'SWBAT explain how math and technology and/or science are connected and how technology and/or science have been and continues to be used to oppress and marginalize people and communities of color.' is fascinating from a history standpoint, where many states formerly had voting tests based on solving mathematical problems, the techniques for which were systematically taught differently to people depending on ethnicity. It's using math as a proxy code-word; if you know the code, you get to vote. If you don't, you don't. Only the 'right' people are taught the code.

Interesting stuff there - and silliness.

And, again, not a bit of it suggests that '2x2=4' is 'racist'.

SWBAT explain how math and technology and/or science are connected and how technology and/or science have been and continues to be used to oppress and marginalize people and communities of color.'

Which is complete garbage. A bunch of white folks looking for new ways to display their righteousness to the religion of woke.
I certainly don't feel marginalized nor oppressed. I most definitely refute in the strongest terms that anyone could oppress or marginalize me.
I definitely don't need them speaking for me or stirring shit on the basis of my genetics/skin color.

Did you read what I wrote, or just knee-jerk a reaction?

Math has been systematically used to oppress and marginalize people in this country. Not because of some 'woke' B.S., but because the 'right' people were taught how to work certain types of problems and the 'wrong' people weren't.

Then, when people went to vote, you asked them to solve a problem. The 'right' people could. The 'wrong' people couldn't.

That's just plain factual history. There's nothing 'woke' about it, nor is there any 'righteousness' or any 'virtue signaling' or anything else. It's actually a pretty interesting topic, and shoving it under the rug as 'complete garbage' because of some mythical 'religion of woke' is, well... complete garbage.

Yes, that same phrasing could be used for other things that are 'complete garbage'. If someone claims that 'numbers are racist', that's junk. But that doesn't mean that everything that phrasing could cover is junk - it's not, pure and simple.

The pendulum is swinging crazily now. In my state it's probably illegal for teachers to teach about voting 'IQ tests' and 'poll taxes' and the like, because that might lead someone to think that white people have occasionally oppressed black people.

Math has been systematically used to oppress and marginalize people in this country. Not because of some 'woke' B.S., but because the 'right' people were taught how to work certain types of problems and the 'wrong' people weren't.

That's a serious claim. So where is the evidence for it?
If this were such a far reaching problem, why is it only now coming out? Your statement sounds more like a conspiracy theory.

Here's an example. Most of this is not math, but you'll note that math is involved here.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/06/voting-rights-and-the-supreme-court-the-impossible-literacy-test-louisiana-used-to-give-black-voters.html

Solving this 30-question test in 10 minutes with zero errors is a very high bar. Failing even one question means the loss of a fundamental right. That sounds like oppression and marginalization to me.

This is hardly just 'only now coming out', and it's hardly a conspiracy theory.

Note: I am NOT saying that 'mathematics', as a field, is racist, oppressive, marginalizing, or anything else. That's absurd mumbo-jumbo. I'm saying that mathematics is a tool and, like many tools, can be twisted and misapplied to negative purposes.

I'm also saying that telling schools that they can't teach something like the metric in question can be misused to ban teaching about voting tests at all.

Interesting stuff there - and silliness.

And, again, not a bit of it suggests that '2x2=4' is 'racist'.

Every last bit of it amounts to math (in general) is racist. If math is racist, then 2x2=4 is necessarily racist.

No, it doesn't. It amounts to saying that math as a human endeavor intersects in some ways with racism as a human endeavor, which is a totally different statement.

NASA used to treat black employees poorly. According to the same level of analysis, I apparently just said that astrophysics is racist.

I won't even dig into 'every last bit of it' except to say that some of the statements don't even mention race, which makes that an absurd statement on its face.

I won't even dig into 'every last bit of it' except to say that some of the statements don't even mention race, which makes that an absurd statement on its face.

So you have no interest in backing up your conspiracy theory.

I posted a link elsewhere. It's not a conspiracy theory. I'm sorry that your knowledge of U.S. history is so poor.

For reference, the 'every last bit of it' comment is related to things like this:

SWBAT identify the inherent inequities of the standardized testing system used to oppress and marginalize people and communities of color.

In what way does that (unquestionably a 'bit of it') state that 'math is racist'? It doesn't even mention math at all.

Are you going to argue that there haven't been repeated problems with standardized testing, in ways that statistically disadvantage non-whites, in the United States?

A link elsewhere means nothing here. A copy paste would solve that one.

It's not a long thread. A single page-up would've found it.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/06/voting-rights-and-the-supreme-court-the-impossible-literacy-test-louisiana-used-to-give-black-voters.html

There you go. I'm not going to repeat the entire other post because, again, a single page-up -- maybe two, now -- will find you the post in question.

This test is to be given to anyone to anyone who cannot prove a fifth grade education

That was at the top of that so called test. Which was made illegal btw. Though nowhere did it say it was for blacks only. At the time and place, there were likely many whites who would have been legally required to take that test.

Are you going to argue that there haven't been repeated problems with standardized testing, in ways that statistically disadvantage non-whites, in the United States?

Being one of those non-whites you speak of, standardized test never held me back. If one person can pass it, all can. It's a simple matter of studying. To say that one race can pass it but not the other is racism itself.

What he's saying is, at some point in history the education system somewhere was skewed in a way one race was tought how to solve a test, and another was not. It could easily been true in context of slavery or even just segregation.

He's quite literally saying that NOT teaching 2x2=4 is racist.

Similarly, it's racist to NOT teach the real math history, pretending it's wholly invented by white people.

What he's saying is, at some point in history the education system somewhere was skewed in a way one race was tought how to solve a test, and another was not. It could easily been true in context of slavery or even just segregation.

Growing up on a reservation, and attending school there, I can say that school was different for us as compared to the nearby county school. In the early 60's, the county school was definitely segregated. Whites, Natives, Blacks, etc had different teachers and classrooms. We also went last when it came time for lunch. For the early years on the reservation, everyone was the same. In latter years at the county school, not so much.

What was important for the non-whites was parental influence. If the parents were using the school as a babysitter, those kids were shit out of luck, never learning much of anything. That I witnessed directly. The worst part of that was the parents, i.e. the ones who bought into the bullshit that because they were Black, Native, or Hispanic, they couldn't learn. For the parents that didn't buy into that, those kids did well.

Bottom line for me is, education starts at home. My parents definitely believed that, as after chores, it was more training and schoolwork.

ETA: To say whitey (the man) held you down, in my opinion, was simply giving up. If the parents and or students won't fight for themselves, what was the point in even trying. Blaming others is an excuse, not a reason.

I agree considerably here. Parental influence is one of the single most important determinants of outcome. However, it can be overcome for some people via a lot of hard work on the parts of the schools, and it's worth trying. Otherwise, we pretty much have no solution for the 'cycle of poverty'.

And, note, quite a lot of the

bullshit that because they were Black, Native, or Hispanic, they couldn't learn

is not something that arose of its own accord in the Black, Native, or Hispanic communities. It's something that was foisted upon them, intentionally or accidentally, by direct action or by chance or happenstance. Once such a thing takes root, it's really hard to fix things.

is not something that arose of its own accord in the Black, Native, or Hispanic communities. It's something that was foisted upon them, intentionally or accidentally, by direct action or by chance or happenstance. Once such a thing takes root, it's really hard to fix things.

That is something we can agree on. The how and why it came to be is irrelevant next to fixing the problem. I am currently working with one such young black kid. His parents apparently bought into it hook line and sinker. I'm currently helping the local high school vocational program. Which btw, from what I can make out, is where school systems country wide dump the kids that don't make the class cut as defined by the school boards. This kid has an innate talent when it comes to welding. When I was trying to help him with heat input calculations, I was informed by him that the calculations were for white people. After meeting his father, I learned where that attitude came from.

It's taken me two months to get him going, but he's finally understanding the need for basic science and math. He's a bright kid, and wants to do well. I met his father when he came to school to talk sense into the white guy who was giving his son uppity ideas. His words not mine. He was taken by surprise when he first saw me. He got upset with his son for not telling him I wasn't white. Somehow, that was susposed to make a difference???

Point to all that is, it's not just an academic argument to me.

Who teaches math history?

Similarly, it's racist to NOT teach the real math history, pretending it's wholly invented by white people.

I don't know about wherever/whenever you went to school, but where/when I did, they didn't teach anything much of anything about the history of mathematics at the K-12 level.

They in no way pretended that it was wholly invented by white people.

Perhaps I've misspoken somewhere. I don't think so, but maybe I have.

So I'll be clear. I am NOT saying that one race can pass it but another cannot.

I will strongly disagree with 'if one person can pass it, all can'. That implies that all people are exactly equal. I could never, even on my very, very best day, pass a test that requires me to run a four-minute mile. I could never, even on my very, very best day, pass a test that requires me to recite PI to 111700 places. There are people who can do both of those things.

Standardized tests have, in the past, contained things that are highly 'classist' or related to culture. It's easy to find examples of words that are far more common in 'white culture' than 'black culture' and vice versa. How many white people know what a 'process' is, to a black person? Far more now than before it started being used as an example of bias, but still, not that many. How many white people know what gasoline has to do with a 'process'? It's easy to find words and phrases that work the other way.

Yes, most of this is classist (as I said), rather than racists. A lot of rich suburban black folks probably don't use 'process' in their daily lives either. Many impoverished Appalachian white folk don't talk about yachts and country clubs or know that 'love' means zero when talking about tennis, or how golf is scored - all of which are examples used on standardized tests which skew the results.

That's why I said 'statistically disadvantage'. If someone wants to 'keep blacks down', they probably don't care that much of a scattering of whites get caught in the net, as long as the net catches a lot of blacks. That's especially true of things like 'literacy tests', where the ever-so-helpful poll workers can 'suggest' answers to the 'poor hardworking white guy' that they'd keep silent about when it's the 'uppity '.

Going back a ways, what I'm saying is: math as a human endeavor intersects in some ways with racism as a human endeavor. Math is a tool. Tools can be used for bad ends. Math has been used for bad ends. That doesn't make math bad, or racist, or evil, or anything of the like. But the notion that saying math (as a field of endeavor) is so pristine that it has never been used to ill purpose, and that schools shouldn't even ask students to think about whether math has been and can be misused to ill purpose, is absurd.

Saying that it has is not even vaguely the equivalent of saying that "2x2=4" is 'racist'.

I will strongly disagree with 'if one person can pass it, all can'. That implies that all people are exactly equal. I could never, even on my very, very best day, pass a test that requires me to run a four-minute mile. I could never, even on my very, very best day, pass a test that requires me to recite PI to 111700 places. There are people who can do both of those things.

A physical fitness test is not the subject. In "context" a standardized education test is what I referred to.

Which is why I mentioned memorizing pi to 111700 places - clearly an educational pursuit. Substitute anything you wish. People differ. Just because one person can pass it doesn't mean all can unless everyone is exactly equal to everyone else, and I stand by that, even if the test is completely fair and utterly unbiased.

Consider the (three-times linked, now?) Louisiana "literacy test". It's almost certain that there existed multiple black folk who could pass that test with a perfect score in under ten minutes. That doesn't mean all of them could.

One person can get a perfect score on the SAT (heck, quite a few people can). That doesn't mean everyone can. There are athletes who have had literally years of dedicated tutoring who still could not pass a required standardized education test, even when passing that test was the gateway to a potential multi-million dollar career.

GreyWolf is making a valid point that, looking back through history, we can find LOTS of things that have been used to protect elevated societal positions. In the area which we all love - using the English language - the Normans used French as the official language when, as a tiny minority, they took control of England. It served to cut those who spoke Anglo-Saxon and Latin out of the power structures.

Of course, there are those who would claim that teaching grammatical English today is racist, in much the same fashion as in Norman England. Don't teach English is one response. Teach those who need it how to break the code is another. It is, and has been for decades, a big fight in K-12 Education. See, e.g., Jaime Escalante, Marva Collins, E.D. Hirsch, Jr., and others on the "teach, teach, teach!" side.

Yes, GW, some of this is silliness, but the point isn't abstract arguments, or even sociological or linguistic studies - it's about power. (Most things in politics and law are - power is the universal human value that's most difficult to reconcile with family, friendship, and care for others. And, no, that's not my opinion. It's science, at least as far as the study of humans can be science - see Schwartz, Univeral Human Values.)

The point of the "math is racist" crowd is NOT to make a historical argument. It's to gain power today. Spots on corporate boards. Distribution of public funds to selected organizations. Those types of things. It's not about yesterday, it's about today and tomorrow. The argument of the "woke" crowd is that guns should be used to make the world a better place by forcing the results in the world that they want.

The real fight isn't over math. It's over whether our current society is one where individuals who do are not white males can exercise autonomy and personal agency to reach their personal potentials, build functional families (for those who agree that this is important), and live happy, satisfying lives. And, if not, who should we point guns at (a/k/a, exercise the power of government over) to achieve a better world.

Arguments over whether 2X2=4 is racist are usually a smokescreen or distraction from the real conflict.

The point of the "math is racist" crowd is NOT to make a historical argument. It's to gain power today. Spots on corporate boards. Distribution of public funds to selected organizations. Those types of things. It's not about yesterday, it's about today and tomorrow. The argument of the "woke" crowd is that guns should be used to make the world a better place by forcing the results in the world that they want.

That sounds more accurate.

Arguments over whether 2X2=4 is racist are usually a smokescreen or distraction from the real conflict.

Agreed.

The point of the "math is racist" crowd is NOT to make a historical argument.

I agree with that as a literal statement. The great majority of the time, when I see "math is racist", it's being used as a strawman to attack people who aren't actually saying "math is racist". You see it over and over (including, more or less in this thread).

The actual statement "math is racist" is absurd, and anyone who'd actually say that teaching "2x2=4" is racist is being ridiculous. The thing is, that virtually never happens. Instead, someone makes a reasonable comment about the history of mathematics, how contributions from people of some ethnicities are taught less than contributions from people of other ethnicities, or how mathematical education is often far worse in certain communities than others, and the response is "they're saying math is racist!"

I hang with a pretty liberal crowd. I hear some pretty eye-roll-y stuff. I've yet to hear anything like that.

Then I suggest you search Google with the term "math is racist."
That or reconsider the rock your living under.

Perhaps a deeper look will turn up actual claims that math is racist, but this rock won't stay inhabited all by itself you know.

It is most definitely there.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/sns-tns-bc-edu-math-racist-20191010-story.html
Five seconds can hardly be called a deep dive.

The part that really befuddles me about the claim, is the vast majority of what's considered advanced mathematics, was appropriated from brown people. Hindus, and Arabics, specifically.
https://www.history.com/news/who-invented-the-zero
Fibonacci was the first to appropriate Arabic numerals. There are a great many things that would not exist today without them. Computers for one.
Yet, it's somehow racist.. go figure.

Agreed, Maths has incorporated advances from a wide variety of cultures. It's mischievous to try to identify it with a single skin colour.

Indeed. You must have some nuts and bolts loose in your head if you find a relation between the science of mathematics and gender. I can't think of any other subjects that are further apart and utterly non-related.