I've recently noted several recent stories that use the phrase "god held you" or some variant. So I'm curious, is this a new trend, or is this evidence that the majority of people (at least in the U.S.) are now unaffiliated with any religion?
Do you use it? Do you think it's more accurate to use the proper name even if you don't personally believe, or do you simply not care?
Just my opinion but when writing about God, the "G" should be capitalized. Not only because of my belief in him, but because you are writing his name as in Dear God...
Lower case "g" can/should used for the Greeks Zeus, Apollo etc
Same. I've always capitalized God when talking about the Christian or Jewish or any other religion that has a singular god whose only name is God, since at that point it's a proper noun.
Just my opinion but when writing about God, the "G" should be capitalized. Not only because of my belief in him, but because you are writing his name as in Dear God...
That was my point. Normally, when you state "Oh, God" or "God Damn", you use the proper noun since they're curses, calling down God's wrath on someone. So when I read "Oh god!" I think, WTF? Which frigging god is he calling, since there were no other mentions of any particular gods in the stories. Instead, the lowercase seems to reflect of the author's own agnosticism of atheism, which is generally something you don't just slip into a story without some context.
Thus the question, is this a new trend? And if so, what is it supposed to convey to readers?
Would it fit if the story had shown the character to be agnostic or atheistic? If it hadn't been shown, would it be a hint that the character was not referencing a particular deity, just as "hell" often is not a reference to a place the character believes to exist?
Would it fit if the story had shown the character to be agnostic or atheistic? If it hadn't been shown, would it be a hint that the character was not referencing a particular deity, just as "hell" often is not a reference to a place the character believes to exist?
The answers at the bottom of the page (@Mushroom), but that's not an accepted term among any branch of religion (at least that I know of, since I'm only familiar with few Easter religions). The more common usage is a variant of "Oh Hell No!", where the "God damn!" is simply an excited utterance, of no particular persuasion.
But I now know what the usage implied, it was just one I wasn't familiar with (once again, since this is a common point of discussion in my particular churchβwhich by the way, is composed of about 50% Christians).
you use the proper noun since they're curses, calling down God's wrath on someone.
That's the point. "Oh god!" is an expression. The person saying it isn't calling on God. It has nothing to do with the belief in God.
That's the point. "Oh god!" is an expression. The person saying it isn't calling on God. It has nothing to do with the belief in God.
That's also my counter point, since I've never known anyone IRL who'd say "Oh random-god who's name I can't recall!". It's just not a common utterance, and IMHO, is simply the result of someone overthinking how to address a variety of different opinions without actually addressing ANY of them.
I can see why someone would use such a reference, only I've never seen it in any real-life experience (Note: typically, you can tell when someone says "Oh, God!" instead of "oh god" by how emphatically they say it, as the one is a simple exclamation, while the second is a renowned profanity!
Somehow, reading someone declaring "Oh god" is much less resounding than someone shouting "Oh FUCK, I stubbed my fucking toe again!!!" One is merely a random utterance, while the other is a recognized expression of anger and/or frustration, commonly used whenever GOD screws up! ;)
Note: typically, you can tell when someone says "Oh, God!" instead of "oh god" by how emphatically they say it, as the one is a simple exclamation, while the second is a renowned profanity!
Vincent, I disagree. You can NEVER know what another person is thinking by their behavior, whether it is verbal or otherwise. You can guess, but you can't know what they think unless they tell you. Then you have to take into account both their honesty and their self-awareness. We all guess. We have to. And, we're right much of the time. But, we don't know. It's the times when we are wrong that bite us in the butt, that mess up relationships.
This is, of course, the problem with emphasizing "my lived experience." Any "lived experience" is just that one person's internal thoughts and emotions, which may, or may not, reflect other realities, such as the thoughts and intentions of other people.
Vincent, I disagree. You can NEVER know what another person is thinking by their behavior, whether it is verbal or otherwise.
Unless, of course, you also communicate with those you frequently speak with via either email or massaging systems. if they DO confirm your suspicion, and NO ONE contradicts those assumes, then it's a safe bet that it's a pretty consistent strategy. No guarantee of course, just like you can't guarantee no one spells "God" as "Jimminy Friggin' Cricket". By the way, that's known as cross confirmation.
But, clearly EVERYONE her disagrees on my views on the subject, which I'm incredibly sorry I ever broached, so I think I'll sit out the rest of this discussion. I'm still convinced, never having my assumptions contradicted, but it really doesn't amount to a hill a beans in RL.
Wait! Did we disagree? If I understood your post correctly, I think we were in agreement. If people confirm your thought/judgment/belief about the meaning of their behavior, and you accept that confirmation as both honest and self-aware, then... yeah, accept that as reality and act on it. Isn't that what we are both saying?
"Oh random-god who's name I can't recall!"
Remember, that most of us who are English speaking tend to live in very cosmopolitan communities. And as part of our mostly Christian beliefs and language, we are restrained by such.
The word "God" as a personal Noun and god as a term for a generic deity are the same word. Unlike say in Muslim communities, where they use not a common term but an actual name. And the same in other regions, especially many in the Far East where they have multiple gods and use their personal names.
Therefore, "Oh god" would mean something very different than if they said "Oh, Vishnu!". the same person could indeed say both. One just a generic exclamation, the other beseeching a specific deity.
In this, I simply recognize the trap of language, and in English it is almost universal to use the exact same word, either specific or in general.
I think it might be not even that much English thing specifically as rather a Christianity thing. At least in Latvian the situation is the same, or even worse, as we have three or four distinct meanings sharing the word Dievs = God.
Even though the differences between the god of christianity and the national god are rather academic discourse about symbolism. Both are never used in plural although part of trinity, and simultaneously part of it and the trinity in its entirety (albeit very different, the other two in ours are personified as females representing Mothers of fate and maternal world respectively, and yes, it might as well be contaminated reinterpretation).
If we want to stress that we mean the national god in personified interpretation as opposed to Christian God or the unified god as a higher principle, the modern usage for that is commonly the cute-adorable diminutive form DieviΕΕ‘ = ?? Godlet?
This is the firs I've seen any variant of "god held you".
The closest I've seen is "God help you", this usually sarcastically with the unstated finisher "because no one else can."
Unless you follow or are referring to a pantheistic religion, it should be God because it refers to a singular entity and is therefore a proper name or title.
This is the firs I've seen any variant of "god held you".
Advanced Search says "No results found for ["god held you"]"
AJ
Advanced Search says "No results found for ["god held you"]"
Ngram has no results for "god held you" but does for "God held you." And it seemed to spike in early 2000.
But I think the sentence is probably used with referring the one and only God holding you which would make it a capital "G".
But I think the sentence is probably used with referring the one and only God holding you which would make it a capital "G".
Again, it was likely "Oh, god!", since the context wasn't related to help, and neither made the slightest relevance to their religious beliefs. Which is why it stumped me.
@ystokes:Normally, but that wasn't a trend in either story, which is why the similarity was so striking, as it didn't feel like a mere typo. Though, given the lack of context, it's also unlikely a reference to any given diety, just a random profanity directed again no one.
@Ernest Bywater:
When referring to a specific deity then a capital is required
Only is it's a proper noun, (i.e. the god's name is literally "God"! If he's part of a plethora of gods, then the curse would specify his actual name.
But again, I wasn't asking about standing conventions, but whether these two usages pointed to something the rest of us can't see, and if so, why? Again, they didn't seem like random typos, so the only thing left is a philological/religous point of view.
since the context wasn't related to help, and neither made the slightest relevance to their religious beliefs. Which is why it stumped me.
Like I said above, I've seen/heard something on the order of "God help you" not as an encouragement or a request for god's help but as a snide, sarcastic comment.
"God help you", because no one else can.
In other words, you are fucked. You are down to plan Z, which is in it's entirety: And then a miracle happens.
I think that usage would fit in an "Oh God!" moment.
Like I said above, I've seen/heard something on the order of "God help you" not as an encouragement or a request for god's help but as a snide, sarcastic comment.
I'm guessing that's more of a regional usage (British English?), as I've never heard that usage before. I'm sure I've heard it used on NPR/PBS before, but for us Americans, it's not a common usage.
I have heard it as a critique, but it's less sarcastic as it's mostly used by fundamentalist Chritians.
I'm guessing that's more of a regional usage (British English?)
Um, no. Regional maybe, but Definitely not British. I'm in the Upper Mid-West of the US, specifically Wisconsin. Might be a Canadian thing that's leaked down across the border.
You can substitute 'Lord' for 'God' in those contexts for a greater religious connotation.
AJ
Advanced Search says "No results found for ["god held you"]"
Sorry, misquote. I think they were variants of either "Oh, god!" or (much less likely) "god damn!".
Given the context, "god help you" doesn't make much sense, but of course, I didn't think to save the passages or even to flag the editors, hoping someone would own up, confess on-line and clue us in as to what they meant. ;)
So, are they just random coincidences, or part of a greater, recent trend?
This is the firs I've seen any variant of "god held you".
Advanced Search says "No results found for ["god held you"]"
That's probably because it was one of those dreaded typos
unrecognizable by spell checkers:
He wanted to type 'help' but instead typed 'held'.
HM.
BTW, in the same sentence he typed 'firs' instead of 'first' but you all recognized it as a typo because the mention of the trees made no sense.
Unless you follow or are referring to a pantheistic religion, it should be God because it refers to a singular entity and is therefore a proper name or title.
Again, both stories are recent, make NO mention of God, gods or any aspect of religion, yet they slipped this in like a throw-away line, which conveys nothing but confusion. So, I'm wondering what point they're trying to make.
To say they both break the story flow would be a severe understatement! I can understand if they were accidents, but two in only a couple of weeks? That seems more like a trend than poor self editing (especially since both stories were pretty well edited, so it doesn't seem to be accidental.
When ever I see a lower-case g I assume the writer was too lazy to use the shift key.
What about high fantasy stories with a plethora of gods?
When referring to a specific deity then a capital is required, but when not being specific a capital is not required, the same is true for titles and ranks. Examples: Admiral Halsey was an important USN admiral in WW2. - The God Zeus was the head god in the Norse Pantheon.
For those who believe in a monotheism then there is only one deity so there is only ever one specific God.
The God Zeus was the head god in the Norse Pantheon.
The guy with a pair of ravens would be Odin, Zeus lived on a mountain further south. Not that there wasn't other sons of Thunder in between.
But otherwise I would agree, lower case implies a plural is at least fathomable.
If the reference is to a single divine being, or members of a pantheon, 'God' or 'Gods' seems right. If one is simply referring to 'the idea of god' or 'maybe there are many gods' lowercase seems correct.
Some trickier ones - if writing an explicit scene, is God capitalized? Very few people are actually meaning to invoke the god of whatever religion they believe in, and even atheists might yell out 'Oh my god!' Surely an atheist's reference would be lowercase, as they are clearly not using it as a proper name.
And, in valley-girl-speak, I'd go with 'Ohmigod' over 'OhmiGod'. Though 'Ohmigawd' may actually be the most 'correct'.
I do not claim to have been entirely consistent on this, but it's something I plan to fix over time. I started out slightly more hesitant to use capital-G when the person was not making a reference to one particularly divinity in which they believed. Over time I decided that was the wrong approach, but some lower-case g's likely still remain, sadly uncorrected.
Some trickier ones - if writing an explicit scene, is God capitalized? Very few people are actually meaning to invoke the god of whatever religion they believe in, and even atheists might yell out 'Oh my god!' Surely an atheist's reference would be lowercase, as they are clearly not using it as a proper name.
That was my thinking, but every atheist/agnostic/deist I know applies the 'foxhole religion' rule of treating the curse as an expression of shock (Capital 'G', whether they believe in God or not).
And trust me, in my church, we get into these types of discussions fairly often!
I believe it is proper for God to be capitalized. Just as is done for Allah. In most cases referring to one of a pantheon of gods and goddesses, to use lower case.
Recently in Aztlan Portal one of my characters, an atheist makes a statement something like, "only if there was a god, could it explain why so many problems plague Mexico." The character has no belief in the Christian God, nor the Aztec pantheon. I thought it was proper to not capitalize, speaking in the character's voice.
I don't think, grammatically speaking, it has anything to do with belief. "was a god" would be correct, because you are talking about a deity in general, but not specific. If he were to say "if God were real" then you'd capitalize, because it would be a proper name (but "if the gods were real" would not be capitalized)
Grammatically you are correct Lumpy.
I am trying to show a particular attitude by being deliberately Grammatically incorrect.
In the Aztlan Portal, one of the alien characters is angry and demands "Why in the name of the Fornicating God, should I be..."
At the beginning of the subchapter I noted characters are speaking in their native language, although it is written in English. I do italicize a few words of their language that I use repeatedly, such as Rank Titles. I capitalized God in that instance because the character used the specific name of a god, it just wasn't relevant to the story for me to render it in the "native language"
Ok, how about Goddess? If you compare a particular attractive girl or lady to a Divine person. And how did a vine become godlike and Divine. Any relationship to Vinegar?
I don't capitalize "god" when it's an expression, like: "oh my god!" or "god damn it!" or "that's the god awful truth" or "dear lord!"
It would be very dependent upon the character making the statement, as well as what you're talking about.
Allah is the NAME of the deity.
Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH or I AM or Adonai is the NAME of the deity.
Vishnu is the NAME of the deity.
God, or god, is a job title.
Who is god's name is in charge of this mess? Oh, wait, we all are, for Thou Art God.
God, or god, is a job title.
Almost universally in Christianity, the "name" has been left off and what is used is a variant of "God" or "Father", no matter what language it is in.
That is largely because the name is not mentioned in the New Testament, and that has become the standard since then. Either an impersonal "God" as his title/role, or the more impersonal "Father" at other times.
God, or god, is a job title. (No, "God" is the Almighty's given name, while "god" is his job title (i.e. One among many)
Who is god's name is in charge of this mess? Oh, wait, we all are, for Thou Art God. (Nope. Again, that's an example of Deism, which is a belief that we are all God and God is all of us). The most common example is the common usage of "God is Nature".
I've recently noted several recent stories that use the phrase "god held you" or some variant. So I'm curious, is this a new trend, or is this evidence that the majority of people (at least in the U.S.) are now unaffiliated with any religion?
With me, I will use either. And it depends on the person and setting.
If just giving an exclamation and is not particularly religious, I will write "oh my god". If it is a person who is religious and specifically talking about the one they pray to, it becomes "I trust in God".
So for me,, it changes depending on the context. As somebody who is enraptured in an orgasm is likely not actually talking to or about their deity.
If just giving an exclamation and is not particularly religious, I will write "oh my god". If it is a person who is religious and specifically talking about the one they pray to, it becomes "I trust in God"
Finally! A direct answer. Which I understand, but it's not a usage I'd attribute to ANY known religion or sectarian usage, which is why it so stumped me.
For most non-believers, they'd use the colloquial "Oh, God!" not out of any particular belief in God, just to convey the common profanity to express a commonly help reference to shock and surprise. "god help me" doesn't fit into that context at all.
By the way, you're on of my more recent reads, so it may have been one of my two references, since I didn't specifically mark it, wrongly assuming I'd find a more readily response. :( After all, My Tomboy is not considered a particularly religious story!
One thing to think about is the bible you read is just a translation so someone could have pulled the word out of thin air.
Well in IMHO, when referring to a deity then the word should be capitalized whether a individual is named or not. Thus, when a pronoun is used to refer to one of Them, then it should be capitalized.
Thus, when a pronoun is used to refer to one of Them, then it should be capitalized.
Only for transexual, asexual or ambisexual gods! ;)
From https://www.deareditor.com/2014/04/re-do-i-capitalize-god-in-dialogue-and-internal-thoughts/
The only rigid rule for capitalizing "God" in dialogue and thoughts is that you do so when using it as a pronoun: "Joe, God won't like that." Beyond that, you can let your character decide. Some characters say "Oh my god!" as a generic expression with no thought to religion at all. For them, lowercase works. They aren't directly invoking God.
"oh my god" is likely generic so lowercase works unless you just plain don't like it, but you can avoid your discomfort or offense to readers by using the casual "oh gawd"
The only rigid rule for capitalizing "God" in dialogue and thoughts is that you do so when using it as a pronoun: "Joe, God won't like that."
Sorry, but that's NOT what 'pronoun' means (ex: he, she, it, they, them, etc.) You capitalize God because it's proper noun, and they also capitalize "He", like "Father", but that's a holdover from the religious use from the Middle Ages hand-copied bibles (i.e. outdated convention that doesn't apply to anything else, other than referenced to God (with a capital G).
Even then, you don't capitalize He when referring to God because it's a pronoun, it's solely because the precise pronoun refers to God, and not some individual Greek, Roman or Nordic god.
*** Flame Off ***
And the Chicago Manual of Style says https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Capitalization/faq0099.html
Q. If the word "god" is capitalized only when it is a proper name, why would you capitalize it in the expression "Oh my god!" unless you know that the speaker is referring to the specific deity worshipped by Christians and other monotheists? Does Chicago style uppercase or lowercase "Oh my god!"?
A. In general, when "god" is used nonliterally (as in your example), or when the reference is to plural "gods" (or to one god among many), lowercase g is the better choice; as your question suggests, a capital G is normally reserved for literal references to the supreme being (or Supreme Being, when referring to a specific God) worshiped according to any of a number of monotheistic religions.
That's their advice, but they also added:
But religion is as varied as it is personal; some authors will prefer to capitalize "god" even in apparently nonliteral references. And some may prefer plural "Gods." Editors should therefore try to confirm an author's preference before making any wholesale changes.
And some may prefer plural "Gods."
As Lazlo wrote many times, thank the Gods and Goddesses for this.
But religion is as varied as it is personal; some authors will prefer to capitalize "god" even in apparently nonliteral references. And some may prefer plural "Gods." Editors should therefore try to confirm an author's preference before making any wholesale changes.
In short, people use all sorts of conventions, self-invented or not, proving this entire discussion (after I determined what the authors involved were trying to convey) is beyond pointless.
proving this entire discussion (after I determined what the authors involved were trying to convey) is beyond pointless.
Does that now mean it's a conversation between clerics? Since they can't use edged or pointed weapons?
Does that now mean it's a conversation between clerics? Since they can't use edged or pointed weapons?
Each wielding a +3 mace of correction?
Does that now mean it's a conversation between clerics? Since they can't use edged or pointed weapons?
Each wielding a +3 mace of correction?
Each team has three clerics.
One wields a +3 mace of correction, one a +3 staff of clues, and the third a +4 hammer of moral superiority.
Do you use it? Do you think it's more accurate to use the proper name even if you don't personally believe, or do you simply not care?
From the editing guidelines at Excessica.com:
3. "God" does not have to be capitalized if it does not refer to the actual deity. So "Oh my god that feels good!" would be acceptable. However, it would be, "I prayed to God that he would get better."
(And her whole list of guidelines is a pretty good one.)
~ JBB
"God" does not have to be capitalized if it does not refer to the actual deity.
1) Which actual deity? And has pantheism been disproven?
2) The 'g' in God particle seems to be usually capitalised, even though it doesn't reference an actual God.
AJ
2) The 'g' in God particle seems to be usually capitalised
By who?
More importantly, why is the pronoun "He" and not "It"? God is not a human.
2) The 'g' in God particle seems to be usually capitalised
By who?
By the media reporting on it. Perhaps it's in the AP style guide.
More importantly, why is the pronoun "He" and not "It"? God is not a human.
When I asked during our conversation, God said she identified as female. ;-)
AJ
Resulting in the dyslexic agnostic who stayed up nights pondering whether or not there was a Dog.
Resulting in the dyslexic agnostic who stayed up nights pondering whether or not there was a Dog.
Haven't you heard, God is Dog spelled backwards. :)
England may no longer be a Christian nation, but English is till a Christian language.
Which is to say that when "Oh God!" entered the English as ab expression of dismay (or orgasm), the people who said it meant the Lord God Jehova. As far as it hs any meaning tody, that is its meaning. You might not believe if Him, but that is what you are invoking.
As for the people who don't capitalize thd wird, are there as many as there are who write "tounge"?
English is till a Christian language.
Which is to say that when "Oh God!" entered the English as ab expression of dismay (or orgasm), the people who said it meant the Lord God Jehova.
So you base your claim that English is a christian language on people shouting "oh god" when they orgasm?
I didn't expect "the cumming of the lord" to be so literal...
Of course English is a christian language - it contains the word 'christian' ;-)
However Christians had little to do with its formulation, being a combination of Romance (pantheistic) and Western European (pagan?).
AJ
I guess I should have checked Chicago Manual of Style right from the beginning. This is what it says:
Q. If the word "god" is capitalized only when it is a proper name, why would you capitalize it in the expression "Oh my god!" unless you know that the speaker is referring to the specific deity worshipped by Christians and other monotheists? Does Chicago style uppercase or lowercase "Oh my god!"?
A. In general, when "god" is used nonliterally (as in your example), or when the reference is to plural "gods" (or to one god among many), lowercase g is the better choice; as your question suggests, a capital G is normally reserved for literal references to the supreme being (or Supreme Being, when referring to a specific God) worshiped according to any of a number of monotheistic religions. But religion is as varied as it is personal; some authors will prefer to capitalize "god" even in apparently nonliteral references. And some may prefer plural "Gods." Editors should therefore try to confirm an author's preference before making any wholesale changes. For some additional considerations, see CMOS 8.91.
So it agrees with me that the "g" is not capitalized in "oh my god!"
So it agrees with me that the "g" is not capitalized in "oh my god!"
Unless the author prefers it. A strange cop-out IMO.
AJ
Unless the author prefers it. A strange cop-out IMO.
Not really. A style guide is a guide. Its purpose is consistency.
So it starts off with its recommendation. But it says if the author for religious or other reasons wants to capitalize "God", the editors should be consistent with the author's wishes.
I tend to defer to the acceptable practices of authors and publishers.
The Almighty gets a capital "G".
All other references get a lower case "g".
Makes it easy and more professional
Use 'G' for the proper noun of someone whose name is 'God', or you are at the beginning of a sentence. Use 'g' if it is just a noun with the meaning of a deity (or other dictionary meaning such as a thing of supreme value). So 'God' may not be a 'god' in any religious sense. This doesn't apply in textspeak or similar where the norm is no capitalisation of names or at the beginning of sentence.
Anyway, I'm 99% sure a newborn child here can legally be given the name 'God' as Anglicised first name on the birth certificate (as long as born in a hospital not affiliated to any Christian church), since English is not an official language. Then it will be printed on the passport (and other officially-certified English-versions of documents) and you will have to address him/her/it/(whatever preferred pronoun) as God even if that is against your religion, similar to Jesus (this gets a special pass since it is pronounced with an H sound in Spanish) or Joshua ... or, as you see from the news last year (or another earlier one from 2019), Lucifer (apparently there are more than 50 Lucifers in the US(source: NYT interview)).
Edit: grammar, additional sources.