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Identical Twins?

PotomacBob ๐Ÿšซ

I know a pair of twin girls, in real life, who are both blond-haired. Their grandfather, a close friend of mine, says at birth one had brown hair and the other had blond. Starting since middle school, they use hair-coloring to make their hair color the same.
My question: Are they identical twins? Does being an identical twin mean just that two siblings of the same gender were born at roughly the same time; or does it mean they have to look very much alike, including hair color? Or does it mean something else?

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@PotomacBob

Does being an identical twin mean just that two siblings of the same gender were born at roughly the same time; or does it mean they have to look very much alike, including hair color? Or does it mean something else?

Identical twins have exactly the same DNA.

https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/finding-out/pregnant-with-twins/

Identical (monozygotic) twins happen when a single egg (zygote) is fertilised.

The egg then divides in 2, creating identical twins who share the same genes.

Identical twins are always the same sex, so if your twins are identical, you'll have 2 girls or 2 boys.

That said, not everything is 100% DNA controlled. some things are affected by developmental conditions.

Also, the reverse is also a possibility: Two fraternal twin embryos merge resulting in a single individual with two sets of DNA.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

That said, not everything is 100% DNA controlled. some things are affected by developmental conditions.

Does that include hair colour? Could the twins in PotomacBob's example be identical twins?

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son  Remus2
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Does that include hair colour? Could the twins in PotomacBob's example be identical twins?

I don't know. I would think it's at least a possibility. After all, it's not a change in DNA that makes older people's hair turn grey/white.

ETA: The only way to confirm if twins are identical post birth is by DNA testing.

Replies:   PotomacBob
PotomacBob ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

The only way to confirm if twins are identical post birth is by DNA testing.

In my lifetime, I've known several sets of twins, all born before there was such a thing as DNA testing. In every case, the twins were of the same gender, and in every case, they looked a lot like each other and were called identical twins by all of us. In every case those of us who knew them well could tell them apart. You seem to be saying that we could have been wrong - that there's no real way to know, post birth, whether or not they were identical twins. Is that right?

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

You seem to be saying that we could have been wrong - that there's no real way to know, post birth, whether or not they were identical twins. Is that right?

Yes, you could have been wrong. Having twins of the same gender does not preclude them being fraternal twins.

Again, identical twins are not defined by similar appearance, but by the division of one fertilized egg into two embryos.

On the other hand, their parents could have known for sure even pre DNA/ultrasound. As mentioned above a single placenta delivered as afterbirth would make it reasonably certain that the twins were identical.

Uther Pendragon ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

In their mother's womb, identical twins have the same placenta. Hence, there is one afterbirth.
The delivering doctorknows, and presumably tells the parents.

Replies:   madnige
madnige ๐Ÿšซ

@Uther Pendragon

In their mother's womb, identical twins have the same placenta.

Not quite. If there is only one placenta, they are definitely identical (with the caveat about expression of genes from different chromosomes in the XX case allowing differing appearances), but in about 30% of identical twins, they each have their own placenta, like fraternal twins. This would be the case if the zygote/blastocyst splits before implantation.

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

Does that include hair colour? Could the twins in PotomacBob's example be identical twins?

I've met some twins with very different hair color. One was a redhead, the other raven haired. In all other ways they were identical replete with twin speak (idioglossia).

Freyrs_stories ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

the test for Identical twins as stated before is coming from the same egg. what normally happens is the egg implants in the uterine wall and the cells start multiplying. then at an early stage of the doubling the zygotes split to two entities. if this split is late you can end up with Siamese or conjoined twins, but I digress. I was talking about the test. normally it is possible on ultrasound to determine if twins are identical then they will be attached to the same placenta and amniotic sac. so the parents may know reasonably early if they're expecting identical twins from an ultrasound. if however this is not the case the second test is during birth. a single placenta will be delivered after the babies. as for different hair colour this may come down to genome phenotype where the same DNA expresses differently due to environmental forces of expression. ie flipping a switch on one gene or a few. so yes it is possible for identical twins to have similar but different shades of hair. but you wouldn't for example get one blonde and one black. blonde and light brown 'may' be possible. ymmv.

Replies:   PotomacBob
PotomacBob ๐Ÿšซ

@Freyrs_stories

Another example of real life - my brother-in-law has a twin brother. I talked him into having a DNA test for use in the family tree. Later, my niece talked his twin brother into also doing a DNA test for the family tree. When that test came back, the DNA results reported "either the same person or a twin". Did not say "identical", though the two brothers looked very much alike (one was about an inch taller than the other, and I - or anybody who knew them fairly well - never had any trouble telling them apart.)

Replies:   Dominions Son  BarBar
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

one was about an inch taller than the other

Height is one of those attributes susceptible to developmental factors. And not just in utero, nutrition, all the way up to physical maturity can affect how tall someone ends up being.

BarBar ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@PotomacBob

When that test came back, the DNA results reported "either the same person or a twin"

Non-identical twins are visually and genetically as related to each other as any pair of two siblings. They result from 2 different eggs being fertilised by sperm at the same time.

A genetic test on two non-identical twins would return "siblings" with no way of knowing from the DNA that they were born at the same time.

I've seen siblings (not twins) who look very much like each other so it can happen that non-identical twins appear very similar, but you can also get non-identical twins who look quite different from each other. And as mentioned above, non-identical twins can be different genders, identical twins cannot.

LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

I know a pair of twin sisters who are known to be fraternal, non-identical (certain fertility treatments have twins or sets as side effects). For us, the extended family, they are very different.

They have different natural body types, one is naturally willowy, the other needs to be careful to not become chubby. They have different face forms and structure. Different eye and natural hair color. Wastly different character.

Yet they are approximately the same height and through diet and excercise their current bodies are very similar. The differences in facial features aren't all that much anymore either, both being drop dead gorgeous.

That said, strangers have trouble to tell them apart, to the point that for a period when one had a driver's license and the other yet haven't, they shared mismatched document sets and got away with it, and some similar stunts normally reserved for identical twins.

Dinsdale ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

I have known male identical twins and also female identical twins. Discussing this with a female twin years ago, she told me that:
- males have XY chromosomes, their physical characteristics are fixed.
- females have XX chromosomes, one of those is free to vary and this permits minor variations.

I have always assumed she was not simply making this up, and I could always tell the two of them apart at a glance. With the male pair I knew, the only difference I could see was that they dressed differently - consistently and deliberately.

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