Forum: Author Hangout

S5 - Civil Affairs, S6 - Communications

Been a long time since I was in the Signal Corps, 1969/1970, but we used 5 for the Executive officer and 6 for the commander. S1 was the Adjutant, his department handled personnel, pay, promotions, etc. S3 had plans and training as well as operations. S4 was Supply. And the property book officer who had hand receipts for everything assigned to the battalion. The identifications given by Remus2 are correct, as far as I know, but some things seem to have changed in the last 50 years.

The identifications given by Remus2 are correct, as far as I know, but some things seem to have changed in the last 50 years

Wikipedia don't say when the USA adopted the Continental Staff System. The Brits used their own system (ComStaff) which is still in use in most Commonwealth countries.

Until 1984, when it began to use the continental or NATO system, the United Kingdom operated its own system

Ernest is probably used to the Commonwealth Staff System.

Many authors – not only here on SOL – use the system mentioned by you (6 for the commander) e.g. John Ringo in The Last Centurion.

Remus2 cited the Continental Staff System, but it applies only for units big enough to have a staff, while the other (5 = XO, 6 = CO) I've seen used for smaller units.

HM.

I agree with your point, I don't personally know the difference as I had to look it up.

S1 - Personnel, S2 - Intelligence, S3 - Operations, S4 - Logistics, S5 - Civil Affairs, S6 - Communications

Actually, it can become even more confusing, depending on type of organization ...

A - for air force headquarters;

C - for combined headquarters (multiple nations) headquarters;

F - for certain forward or deployable headquarters;

G - for army or marine general staff sections within headquarters of organizations commanded by a general officer and having a chief of staff to coordinate the actions of the general staff, such as divisions or equivalent organizations (e.g., USMC Marine Aircraft Wing and Marine Logistics Group) and separate (i.e., non-divisional) brigade level (USMC MEB) and above;

J - for joint (multiple services) headquarters, including the Joint Chiefs of Staff;

N - for navy headquarters;

S - for army or marines executive staff sections within headquarters of organizations commanded by a field grade officer (i.e., major through colonel) and having an executive officer to coordinate the actions of the executive staff (e.g., divisional brigades, regiments, groups, battalions, and squadrons; not used by all countries);

S is also used in the Naval Mobile Construction Battalions (SeaBees) and in the Air Force Security Forces Squadron.

U - is used for United Nations military operations mission headquarters.

Another one that still is vague: NCO, the explanation 'Non Commissioned Officer' still leaves the question what that really is. I looked it up but explanations vary.

NCO is the modern term for Petty Officer (Onderofficier).
The problem with NCO is the range of ratings it covers. This is different between countries and historical context. Adding to the confusion is Warrant Officer. The German military forces of today have no Warrant Officers. Nederlands Wikipedia doesn't even have an separate entry for 'Warrant Officer'.

HM.

As someone without a military background, I have no idea what either of those mean.

A problem that probably many readers without military background have and it often isn't very relevant ... until it does and we, the readers, have no clue.
But I do know what a 'Gunny' is, he's one of the smarter ones in the military that actually can get things done ;) I have no idea of his actual function or position.

NCO is the modern term for Petty Officer (Onderofficier).

My understand is that for the US at least:

Petty Officer is and always has been a a specific naval rank. Army and Marines have Sergeants, not Petty Officers.

NCO = Non Commissioned Officer. This is not a specific rank, but a general category Every enlisted rank above private is an NCO

A petty officer is an NCO.

Army corporal (E4) which is above a private (E1–E3) is not an NCO.

"Army Times
All soldiers must now serve as corporals before promotion to sergeant
By Harm Venhuizen
Monday, Jun 7

Junior enlisted soldiers will soon have to pin on the rank of corporal before they can become sergeants, according to an Army news release.

Corporals are formally recognized as noncommissioned officers but retain the same E-4 pay grade as specialists. As a junior NCO, a corporal also takes on leadership duties for a small unit, like a fire team.

Starting July 1, all active-duty specialists who have been recommended for promotion and completed the Basic Leader Course will be laterally promoted to corporal. BLC is the required training to enter the NCO corps.

Current corporals will need to qualify for promotion and complete BLC, or else be laterally reassigned as specialists.

"We want to get after leading, teaching and mentoring our junior enlisted Soldiers early," Sgt. Maj. Kenyatta Gaskins, Directorate of Military Personnel Management sergeant major, said in the release. "This is a junior leader development process and that's how we're looking at this."

The rank of corporal has historically been a recognition of leadership potential and is a somewhat rare sight in the Army. Requiring the rank for all soldiers represents a change in culture, Gaskins said.

National Guard and Reserve soldiers will also be included in the change, but the new directive won't be applied to reservists until Oct. 1.

The change is part of broader efforts in the Army to develop junior leaders and give them the experience and preparedness to one day excel as squad leaders.

"We rely on junior leaders to build cohesive teams that are highly trained, disciplined, and mentally and physically fit," Sgt. Maj. of the Army Michael Grinston said. "In many cases, a specialist is charged with that responsibility. This allows us to recognize their role as a noncommissioned officer and ensure they're getting the coaching and mentorship they need to be successful."

The rank of corporal was one of the original ranks established with the U.S. Army in 1775, and since then has been one of two ranks to never leave the NCO corps.

New requirements for BLC were also announced in the news release.

All soldiers attending BLC must first be recommended for promotion to sergeant. This change goes into effect on June 1, 2022, for active-duty soldiers and Oct. 1, 2022, for reservists.

It is not yet clear how much time soldiers must spend at the rank of corporal before promotion to sergeant.

About Harm Venhuizen
Harm Venhuizen is an editorial intern at Military Times. He is studying political science and philosophy at Calvin University, where he's also in the Army ROTC program."

In the Army, an E5 is a sergeant. So an Army corporal (E4) which is above a private (E1–E3) is not an NCO.

My understanding is that any enlisted rank which can be in charge of lower ranks would be considered an NCO

In the Army, an E5 is a sergeant. So an Army corporal (E4) which is above a private (E1–E3) is not an NCO.

The above statement is incorrect. Both the corporal and sergeant are NCOs, but the equivalent technical paygrades of specialist 4 (spec4) and specialist 5 (spec5) are not NCOs. They may receive equivalent pay, but are not in leadership roles (i.e. in the chain of command .. and eligible to take command if required).

In the Army, an E5 is a sergeant. So an Army corporal (E4) which is above a private (E1–E3) is not an NCO.

The above statement is incorrect.

The above statement was not mine.

My understand is that for the US at least:
Petty Officer is and always has been a a specific naval rank. Army and Marines have Sergeants, not Petty Officers.

NCO = Non Commissioned Officer. This is not a specific rank, but a general category Every enlisted rank above private is an NCO

You may be right for the USA of today, but worldwide and historical Petty Officer is not a specific rank, but a rank group category.

In some countries the same term [Petty Officer] is used as for a non-commissioned officer (NCO) in land forces, e.g. "suboficial" in some Spanish-speaking countries. The Russian equivalent is Starshina.

The German military uses 'Unteroffizier' both ways: a specific rank and as a group of ranks.
My answer was for Keet and in his country NCO equals Onderofficier. In French it's 'sous-officier'

Le terme sous-officier désigne un groupe de grades dans une hiérarchie de type militaire.

HM.

You may be right for the USA of today, but worldwide and historical Petty Officer

In the US, petty officer as a specific rank goes back to at least the Civil war.

http://usnlp.org/civilwarnavalranks/Union_A.htm

The US naval Petty Officer rank/title was adopted from the existing RN manning practices and policies during Revolutionary War era, because of the naval personnel had served - either freely or by impressment - in the RN and either 'ran' (deserted) or were released when ships were "paid off" after periods of conflict and found berths on ships plying the triangular trade routes. Please recall that the UK colonies began and existed for 150 years and a significant number of colonial families sent sons to serve in the RN.

The US naval Petty Officer rank/title was adopted from the existing RN manning practices and policies during Revolutionary War era,

I figured that, but I couldn't find a reference for it.

The problem is, how does the author know what the reader doesn't know?

There's a big gray area between common knowledge and specialized knowledge. Much of the terms used in military, aviation, ships, etc are specialized although not all. For example everyone knows what a mast is on a sailing boat, but almost no one knows what a mizzen is on that same boat. Military designations are specialized since most countries have their own designations. Again. it's in the terms used: everyone knows general, corporal, lieutenant, etc., but the 'S' types mentioned in the post that started this topic is not common knowledge.
It's up to the author to determine whether or not a certain term is common knowledge or not AND determine if understanding a specific term is important to the actions in a scene. When in doubt, do like Ernest recommended: write out an acronym the first time and/or explain a term the first time it is used. You have readers from around the world so don't assume local knowledge to be global knowledge. I have never seen complaints about 'too much' explanations but have read multiple times here on the forum about too little.

I might have put it in context, though, like "now that a round was loaded" or maybe describing the noise it made in the quiet room.

An for that scene it was enough for the reader to understand without affecting the flow of the text. Well done.

Or MI6?

A military rifle?

"Bond. James Bond."

Okay, now I'm curious, what are MI1 through MI4?

what are MI1 through MI4

"MI1 was code breaking, MI2 covered Russia and Scandinavia, MI3 Eastern Europe, and MI4 did the maps. They were also joined by MI7 (propaganda), MI8 (signals) and MI9 (aid to the European resistance movements). There was also MI10, MI11, MI14, Mi17 and MI19." Functions have been reorganized and re-named. M I was military intelligence. This is a well known contradiction.

"Oxymorons, Paradoxes, And Contradictory Statements
An oxymoron is two or more words that contradict themselves (e.g. "poor little rich girl" or "living dead"). Sometimes an oxymoron is intended to be humorous (e.g. "military intelligence" or "rap music"). A paradox is a phrase that contradicts itself (e.g. "A Cretan says 'All Cretans are liars'"). A paradox is also used to describe something that seems to be hypocritical.

Central theme
'85 Radio Special Thank You - "We all sang a duet...", "...until they never let us out a full ten blocks later"
Another First Kiss
Arkansas - a song about sailing along the waters of the Arkansas coast when the state is actually landlocked"

the name sounds funny

In Western Washington there is a City of Shoreline with very elaborate signs memorializing its borders. I always redistribute the SH and the C so it reads the Shity of Coreline.

Not every country has Ford cars, and not every country uses a pickup truck

Germany has Fords, 1931 started production in Köln, but we have very few pickups in use, all imported.
So Ford F-150 doesn't ring a bell, I would't know what type of car it is.

HM.

Do I have to explain what FBI means? Or MI6? The only reason I know what MI6 is, is because of books and movies about British spies. I once used an excerpt of a novel I wrote here as an example of something and a Ford F150 was used.

You're probably right for the majority, but there is a minority out there that learned what MI6 was without having seen a movie or read a book.
As for the F150, that was probably a bad choice for an example. People on this side of pond can get rather bent over Ford/Chevy/Dodge in regards to pickup of choice. For those outside the states, and in particular the UK, the choice of pickup can be likened to the choice of football(soccer) team.

There are extremely rich people roaming around in pickups like that. A beat up old import truck would have been a better choice imo. I've worked for a guy out in Kansas that had a networth north of 50 million that drove an old beat up Chevy truck.

As for class of people, I've met some extremely low class people driving BMW's and Mercedes. A vehicle is an all around bad choice as a judge of class in the states. A person can sit outside Walmart observing people and see some seriously low class people getting into a close to new BMW, after they drop their cheap beer in the boot (trunk). There is a trailer home a few miles from me with a 70 grand fishing boat and BMW sitting in front of it. The local law enforcement deputies I do some work for, tell me the guy is a wife beating meth selling piece of trash.

Same thing applies. They'll live in a 10 grand single wide trailer but drive a 70 grand vehicle. Low income/low class in both ways.

BMW

BM as in Bowel Movement and Double U as in two vowels, or bowels.

Thank everybody we don't have to explain Warrant Officers O1 through O5. They aren't commissioned, they aren't NCOs. Sometimes the S4 is a Warrant Officer. In 1970 I was Property Book Officer and acting S4, as a First Lieutenant in the 123rd Signal Battalion (3rd Infantry Division, Rock of the Marne) in Wurzburg, Germany. I was replaced by a Warrant Officer who had experience in that job.

BM as in Bowel Movement and Double U as in two vowels, or bowels.

I'm not impressed with their engineering. So yes, they are a POS imo. However, many don't share that opinion.

I'm not impressed with their engineering. So yes, they are a POS imo.

BMW makes Point Of Sale terminals?

Piece of Shit = POS

It's not awful, like Jaguar or Land Rover. But it's far from the uber-reliable image the Germans mysteriously seem able to perpetuate.

That's a matter of opinion. IMO, the three are no different. There isn't much mystery behind the image and how it was created. Like any other add campaign, as long as the product isn't falling apart regularly, they can toot their own horn. One thing the Germans do have is good steel and metallurgy as a whole, that helped a lot. Problems start cropping up in the wiring and electronics. They are still playing catch up in that regards.

He went out to his rusty old Ford F-150 pickup parked at the side of the parking lot ... - that way if the Ford F150 meant nothing, then the single word pickup would resolve the image for them.

Even if you exclude the work pickup, nothing important is lost.

He went out to his rusty old Ford F-150 pickup parked at the side of the parking lot...

Even if the reader has no idea what a pickup is or that an F150 is a pickup, it's not like someone is going to be parking a rusty old fighter jet there.

but they could be picturing a rusty old small four door sedan or motorcycle which paints a very different picture.

True, but I'm not sure that matters to the impression the author is trying to convey.

Ford/Chevy/Dodge

What makes is worse is that the Toyota Tundra is better than two of those name brands...

As is the Nissan Titan imo.

What makes is worse is that the Toyota Tundra is better than two of those name brands...

Two? It's better than all three. And the HiLux is even better than the Tundra if you consider it as a working car. Americans will like the Tundra better only because it's bigger and more luxurious.

I was just seeing if there were any diehard Ford/Chevy/Pile of Shit fans on here.

Never had a problem with my Silverado until the Kansas weather killed it.
As for diehard, not I. A pickup is a utility vehicle. As long as it does its job, I don't car what brand it is.

If you live by the TLA you will die by the TLA.

TLA=Three Letter Acronym.

:)

TLA ?

Tennessee Literary Academy

TLA=Three Letter Acronym.

I actually defined TLA in my comment. Reading comprehension failure.

I actually defined TLA in my comment.

Indeed you did. However, in keeping with the discussion my point was that acronyms are reused repeatedly. TLA has 82 definitions listed.

:)

Another problem with acronyms is that some of them get reused and reused.

There are acronyms with dozens of definitions. I'm currently rereading a story from Old Man with a Pen where he uses the acronym "LOD" and every time he adds "(Length on Deck)" after it and I appreciate that very much.

AcronymFinder has 88 (!) definitions for LOD. Even with the acronyms in separate categories I would have had a hard time finding the correct one.
The real fun starts if something happens like Ernest explained. Imagine a story where the same acronym is used multiple times but with a different meaning at different places in the story. I haven't encountered it yet that I know of but some authors use boat loads of acronyms in their stories so I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few readers get thoroughly confused. Instead of a cast list they should add an acronym list ;)

Liz-n-Rick have been providing that; at the end of most chapters is what they call a glossary of terms ...

i.e., from Project: Eldest Son Ch 1 ...

Bratva: Russian for their Mob

Sovietnik: Most trusted advisor to the mob boss. Consigliere would be comparable in the mafia.

HEIAP: High Explosive Incendiary Armor Piercing, type .50 cal ammunition.

SBS: Royal Marine Special Boat Service, stationed in Dorset England. US equivalent is Marine Special Ops Command.

FSB: Russian Intelligence Service. Closest thing the US has is the NSA.

Cadex: Brand of sniper rifle.

Liz-n-Rick have been providing that; at the end of most chapters is what they call a glossary of terms ...

Yep, it's rare but some authors do have a glossary added. Often much needed too.